How do you : "Fall from Grace"

Brightfame52 said:

Sure it does, He was made under the Law to redeem the people He represented from the curse of the law. The law required #1 Perfect obedience to its precepts #2 Death for any sin against it, Christs obedience unto death covered both aspects for His People. Rom 5:19

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Thats word righteous is the greek word δίκαιος:

ghteous, observing divine laws

1. 
   
   
   • in a wide sense, upright, righteous, virtuous, keeping the commands of God
   • All for whom Christ lived and died, through Him have kept, and our keeping all the commands of God and are counted righteous. By His representative obedience.

If you didnt know that, its a shame all i can say, Thats Major Gospel Truth

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@Eilat

There is a difference between a description of the way of becoming righteous and a description of the way that a righteous person lives. For example, the law reveals that it is righteous to help the poor, and this is describing the way that a righteous person lives, not the way to become righteous because no amount of helping the poor will ever cause someone to become righteous. The law itself came with instructions for what to do when the people sinned, so it never required perfect obedience, and even if someone managed to have perfect obedience, then they still wouldn't earn their righteousness by their obedience because the law was never given for that purpose. In Romans 3:21-22, it does not say that the Law and the Prophets testify that the righteousness of God comes through perfect obedience, but rather they testify that it comes through faith in Christ, so this has always been the one and only way that there has ever been to become righteous. In Genesis 6:8-9, Noah found grace in the eyes of God and was a righteous man, so he was declared righteous by grace through faith by the same means as everyone else. God had no need to provide an alternative and unattainable means of becoming righteous through perfect obedience to His law when a perfectly good means was already in place, so that was never the reason for why we should obey the law, which means that being made righteous by Jesus does not qualify as him obeying the law on our behalf.

Jesus is the exact expression of God's character (Hebrews 1:3), or in other words, he is righteousness made flesh or the living embodiment of righteousness, so everything that he did describes the way that a righteous person lives, and the way that he lived was was sinless example of how to walk obedience to the Mosaic Law. When we have a character trait, then we will live in a way that testifies about that character trait, so to say that someone is righteous is to say that they live in a way that testifies about Christ's righteousness by keeping the commands of God in accordance with the example that Christ set for us to follow. In other words, the reason why we have received the righteousness of Christ was not in order to hide it under a bushel, but in order to let it shine through our obedience so that we bring glory to the Father through testifying about who He is (Matthew 5:13-16).

So Jesus made us righteous so that we will live in obedience to the Mosaic Law, not so that we don't have to. In Deuteronomy 28:1-14, it describes the blessing of blessing of living in obedience to the Mosaic Law while verses 15-68 describe the curse of living in disobedience to it, so being redeemed from the curse of the law is being set free to enjoy the blessing of the law. In Titus 2:14, it doesn't say that Jesus gave himself to redeem us from the law, but in order to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so if we believe in Christ's obedience unto death on the cross, then we will become zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Mosaic Law (Acts 21:20) and will not return to the lawlessness that he gave himself to redeem us from.

Eilat said:

You do not practice righteousness to become a child of God, and you have no righteousness until God gives you His, as "the gift of righteousness".
So, if you are not born again, you are not only unrighteous, but you are hell bound upon your death, if you are currently playing that self righteousness game with yourself, reader.

Religion, (self righteousness) is the false and demonic concept that you can do "good deeds" and ether be accepted by God, or become like God.

And example of trying to be righteous, and dying unrighteous, is anyone who is trying to be a good person, thinking they will be accepted by God after they die. These deceived are not born again, and they believe that God will compare all their good works they did on the earth with their bad, and if they have committed more good works then bad works, they get to go to heaven... based on their works.
They will not. They will burn in the lake of fire after they go to hell like a bullet after they die.

The only good works that God accepts, are the works He performed as JESUS THE CHRIST.
All other "good works" need not apply to the Throne of God, as you will be rebuked, and told..."depart from me, i never knew you".
And why is that?
Because Jesus said....>"You MUST be born again".

Here is a revelation for you , if you are a Christian.
You are doing works after you are saved that you could have done before you were saved.
In both cases, they are the same, in God's perspective, as God accepts no man's works.
God only accepts : "the finished work of Jesus on the Cross", and this one..
"the Work of God, is that YOU believe on JESUS whom God SENT".

See those? Those are both GOD's works.
He accepts only His work, on our behalf. "the GIFT of Salvation".


You are born again to become a Child of God, and that is NOT by works.

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I completely agree that we do not need to practice righteousness in order to become a child of God. Following God's laws for how to practice righteousness is about acting more in accordance with who God has created us to be, not about trying to become something other than what we currently are. God's law was not given as instructions for how to become self-righteous, but as instructions for how to live in a way that testifies about His righteousness.

There is nothing inherent to the definition of "religion" that specifies "self-righteousness". Jesus practiced the true religion of Judaism by living in sinless obedience to the Mosaic Law and by spending his ministry teaching his followers how to practice it by word and by example.

God has given laws that instruct how to live in a way that is acceptable to him and it is absurd to think that the way to do what is acceptable to God involves refusing to submit to those laws. Again, in 1 John 3:10, those who do not practice righteousness in obedience to those laws are not children of God, not the other way around. Obedience to God's laws has never been about needing to have enough good works to outweigh our bad works, but about expressing our faith in God to lead us in how to live in a way that is acceptable to Him. Nowhere does the Bible say anything like that the only good works that God accepts are those done by Jesus. In Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, not those who are doers of the law. In Romans 2:13, only doers of the law will be justified.

In Titus 2:11-14, it does not say that we will do good works after we have been saved, but rather it describes our salvation as being trained by grace to do good works. In Titus 2:14, it describes the finished work of Jesus by saying that he gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Mosaic Law is what it looks like to believe in the finished work of Jesus (Acts 21:20). All throughout the Bible, God wanted His people to repent and to return to obedience to His law, and even Christ began his ministry with that message, so it doesn't make any sense for you to think that God will refuse to accept those that do this. Being trained by grace to do good works through faith is what the gift of Jesus saving us from not doing good works looks like. It is contradictory to want to be saved from living in disobedience to God's law without involving living in obedience to it.

Eilat said:

Aren't you glad that Wikipedia is there for you?
Just imagine what you would not be able to post if you could not go and find it online.
Good for you .

So, as i was saying, there are 30 known Greek Texts, in existence, obo, ... that are completed .
These are all copies of copies.
They are the entire NT. but most of them are not accepted, by those who are "scholars".
The '"received Greek text" that created the KJV, and the 2 that are accepted as "Nestles", are used to created most "new" bibles. However, most new bibles are a product of the particular theology that is believed by the Translators, and that is where the corruption comes in..
Its like this reader.......the end result is always a product of the source......... So, if the translators of a bible are Mormons, or Catholics, or """Insert Denomination"...then the end result bible is going to be the overarching NT Theology regarding those who created it.
They will SLANT the doctrine to fit their theological ideology.
That's how the Devil ruins "new" bibles.

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Hi and you means that WIKIPEDIA is above the TEXTUS RECPTUS or the KJV ??

Did the HOLY SPIRIT , Authorize the WIKIPEDIA ?

The bible was authorized by the HOLY SPIRIT as God breathed all scripture in 2 Tim 3:16 , so we can be TRAINED !!

dan p

Soyeong said:

@Eilat

There is a difference between a description of the way of becoming righteous and a description of the way that a righteous person lives. For example, the law reveals that it is righteous to help the poor, and this is describing the way that a righteous person lives, not the way to become righteous because no amount of helping the poor will ever cause someone to become righteous. The law itself came with instructions for what to do when the people sinned, so it never required perfect obedience, and even if someone managed to have perfect obedience, then they still wouldn't earn their righteousness by their obedience because the law was never given for that purpose. In Romans 3:21-22, it does not say that the Law and the Prophets testify that the righteousness of God comes through perfect obedience, but rather they testify that it comes through faith in Christ, so this has always been the one and only way that there has ever been to become righteous. In Genesis 6:8-9, Noah found grace in the eyes of God and was a righteous man, so he was declared righteous by grace through faith by the same means as everyone else. God had no need to provide an alternative and unattainable means of becoming righteous through perfect obedience to His law when a perfectly good means was already in place, so that was never the reason for why we should obey the law, which means that being made righteous by Jesus does not qualify as him obeying the law on our behalf.

Jesus is the exact expression of God's character (Hebrews 1:3), or in other words, he is righteousness made flesh or the living embodiment of righteousness, so everything that he did describes the way that a righteous person lives, and the way that he lived was was sinless example of how to walk obedience to the Mosaic Law. When we have a character trait, then we will live in a way that testifies about that character trait, so to say that someone is righteous is to say that they live in a way that testifies about Christ's righteousness by keeping the commands of God in accordance with the example that Christ set for us to follow. In other words, the reason why we have received the righteousness of Christ was not in order to hide it under a bushel, but in order to let it shine through our obedience so that we bring glory to the Father through testifying about who He is (Matthew 5:13-16).

So Jesus made us righteous so that we will live in obedience to the Mosaic Law, not so that we don't have to. In Deuteronomy 28:1-14, it describes the blessing of blessing of living in obedience to the Mosaic Law while verses 15-68 describe the curse of living in disobedience to it, so being redeemed from the curse of the law is being set free to enjoy the blessing of the law. In Titus 2:14, it doesn't say that Jesus gave himself to redeem us from the law, but in order to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so if we believe in Christ's obedience unto death on the cross, then we will become zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Mosaic Law (Acts 21:20) and will not return to the lawlessness that he gave himself to redeem us from.

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You have taken up a lot of space to make no point. Christ has kept the law for His People and made them righteous Rom 5 19. The righteous lives by Faith!

Brightfame52 said:

You have taken up a lot of space to make no point. Christ has kept the law for His People and made them righteous Rom 5 19

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In Romans 5:19, it notably does not say that Christ kept the law on behalf of his people. God's law is His instructions for how to testify about His righteousness, not for how to establish our own righteousness through perfect obedience, so even if someone somehow managed to have perfect obedience, then still still would not earn their righteousness by the law. Someone becoming righteous does not imply that they had perfect obedience or that someone had perfect obedience on their behalf, but rather that is what you are inserting into Romans 5:19. On the contrary, when God declares us to be righteous by grace through faith, He is also declaring us to be someone who lives in a way that testifies about His righteousness in obedience to His instructions for how to do that found in His law.

Soyeong said:

In Romans 5:19, it notably does not say that Christ kept the law on behalf of his people. God's law is His instructions for how to testify about His righteousness, not for how to establish our own righteousness through perfect obedience, so even if someone somehow managed to have perfect obedience, then still still would not earn their righteousness by the law. Someone becoming righteous does not imply that they had perfect obedience or that someone had perfect obedience on their behalf, but rather that is what you are inserting into Romans 5:19. On the contrary, when God declares us to be righteous by grace through faith, He is also declaring us to be someone who lives in a way that testifies about His righteousness in obedience to His instructions for how to do that found in His law.

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His obedience shall make them righteous. Being made righteous means having obeyed God's Law completely, justified. They become doers of the law Rom 2:13

(for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Brightfame52 said:

His obedience shall make them righteous. Being made righteous means having obeyed God's Law completely, justified. They become doers of the law Rom 2:13

(for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

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Again, Romans 3:21-22 does not say that the Law and the Prophets testify that the righteousness of God comes through our obedience, but rather they testify that it comes through faith in Christ for all who believe, so this is the one and only way to become righteous. In Romans 4:4-5, Paul specifically denied that righteousness is earned by our works, but rather it becomes by faith, so Romans 2:13 is not speaking about earning our righteousness by being a doer of the law. It says only doers of the law will be justified, so being a doer of the law is a trait that everyone who will be justified has, but does not say that the way to become justified is by being a doer of the law. In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the law, so only those who have faith in Jesus will be doers of the law and will be justified by that same faith, which is why only doers of the law will be justified, but we do not become justified by being a doers of the law. God's laws describe the way that a righteous person lives, not the way to become righteous.

Eilat said:

The Religion that Jesus practiced was not based on trying to be accepted by God.
He would have no reason to do this, as He is God.
So the reason He was perfect, was not because of His Judaism, but because He as sent here to fulfil the law and commandments, and die a sinless sacrifice.

Also, "religion" is man creating dogma, rules and regulations, that are trying to make SELF RIGHT, (self righteousness)...with God., or to become like God by these man made ideas/teaching/religious practices.
That's Religion.

Christianity is not religion, as religion is man trying to DO.
Christianity is God doing it FOR YOU.

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religion
[ ri-lij-uhn ]
noun
a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

I see nothing in the definition of "religion" that specifies that it s man creating dogma, rules and regulations, that are trying to make self right with God or to become like God by these manmade idea/teaching/religions practices. Both Judaism and Christianity are religions by definition and Jesus practiced Judaism by living in sinless obedience to the Mosaic Law. Jesus was born under the law, so he was obligated to obey it (Galatians 4:4), and he was sinless, so he never broke it, so he he fulfilled the Mosaic Law by teaching us how to obey it by word and by example. In Psalms 119:29, David what God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, so that is what God is doing for us, though there is nothing about Christianity being about what God is doing for us that excludes it from being a religion.

Soyeong said:

Again, Romans 3:21-22 does not say that the Law and the Prophets testify that the righteousness of God comes through our obedience, but rather they testify that it comes through faith in Christ for all who believe, so this is the one and only way to become righteous. In Romans 4:4-5, Paul specifically denied that righteousness is earned by our works, but rather it becomes by faith, so Romans 2:13 is not speaking about earning our righteousness by being a doer of the law. It says only doers of the law will be justified, so being a doer of the law is a trait that everyone who will be justified has, but does not say that the way to become justified is by being a doer of the law. In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the law, so only those who have faith in Jesus will be doers of the law and will be justified by that same faith, which is why only doers of the law will be justified, but we do not become justified by being a doers of the law. God's laws describe the way that a righteous person lives, not the way to become righteous.

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You overlooking Rom 5:19, being made righteous by His obedience. What is it to be righteous ? Look the word up

Brightfame52 said:

You overlooking Rom 5:19, being made righteous by His obedience. What is it to be righteous ? Look the word up

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Do you think that Romans 5:19 is contradicting Romans 4:4-5, Romans 3:21-22, and all of the other verses that we are justified by faith and not by works?

Soyeong said:

Do you think that Romans 5:19 is contradicting Romans 4:4-5, Romans 3:21-22, and all of the other verses that we are justified by faith and not by works?

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Theres no contradiction in scripture. By His obedience many are made righteous. Do you know what that word righteous means ?

Brightfame52 said:

Theres no contradiction in scripture. By His obedience many are made righteous. Do you know what that word righteous means ?

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If you agree that there is no contradiction in Scripture, then you should agree that Romans 5:19 is not speaking about earning righteousness. To say that someone is righteous is to say that they are someone who does what is righteous, and God's laws is His instructions for how to do what is righteous, but it is not making a statement about what they have earned. Romans 5:15-21 repeatedly speaks about grace and a free gift, and the way to receive grace in through faith.

Eilat said:

Your source is not what you should rely on..
You instead should listen to someone who understands why Christianity is not a religion.
Your source does not understand this, and to understand it, is the proof that you can trust the source....or not.

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I could cite any number of examples of how dictionaries define "religion" that would show that Christianity is a religion by definition, whereas I don't think that you are able to cite a single dictionary that defines "religion" as you have done, so it might just be the case that it is those who think that Christianity is not a religion who are not using a source they can trust and who need to listen to someone who understands why Christianity is a religion.

Soyeong said:

If you agree that there is no contradiction in Scripture, then you should agree that Romans 5:19 is not speaking about earning righteousness. To say that someone is righteous is to say that they are someone who does what is righteous, and God's laws is His instructions for how to do what is righteous, but it is not making a statement about what they have earned. Romans 5:15-21 repeatedly speaks about grace and a free gift, and the way to receive grace in through faith.

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I explained Rom 5 19

Eilat said:

Yes.
That's what im telling you.
God gave us a bible, and we are not to correct it with the Greek.
We are instead to believe it.

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Hi and look at what Isa 45:7 and says that God , CREATES EVIL !!

Can you explain it as you seem to be KJV,ONLY !!

Can we change the Heb word EVIL / RA ??

dan p

5thKingdom said:

And what specific SCRIPTURE teaches such a thing?
Or is that your "interpretation"... and, if so, what Scripture
do you THINK teaches such a doctrine?

Please provide chapter and verse.

Jim

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Yes its my understanding. I dont believe a saved person can fall from grace, a person who is saved by grace cant fall from grace. Do you believe a person can lose their Salvation from and by Grace?