God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved

Bond-servant of Christ said:

I don't think that you understand what the Bible teaches on this, because your theology is getting the better of you!

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No, it is YOU who (a) does not understand what the Gospel says
and (b) you even contradict YOUR OWN WORDS in trying to make
the Gospel say something it does not.

God commands all people everywhere to REPENT,

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So far you have it correct.
But remember, the Bible says UNREGENERATED men
will NEVER "seek God" (no, not even one) Rom 3:10-12


And remember, Jesus said NO MAN can come to Him unless
the Father "draws" them and ALL MEN the Father draws
"shall come" to Him, and He will lose NONE of them. [Jn 6]


So... understanding what the Bible teaches on the subject
of WHO will "seek God" or "come to Him"... let's look at
your next statement - which is a contradiction in itself.

this (repenting) is a prerequisite for salvation.
It is NOT something that a sinner does to EARN their salvation...

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If man deciding (a mental work) to "repent" is a prerequisite
to being regenerated (saved) then it is BY DEFINITION
a "work" of man that must be done to be saved.


Repentance is part of being saved. However, as we have seen
in Romans 3 and John 6, NO MAN can repent unless/until he
has been "drawn" by God and regenerated... we repent
BECAUSE we have a new heart... not in order to get
our new heart. Do you understand the difference?


In other words, repentance is the RESULT of regeneration
and never the CAUSE... otherwise you have a "works gospel".
This is the original and traditional and orthodox understanding
of the Protestant believers, as well as being Biblical Truth.


To be clear:
If man has to DO ANYTHING to be saved then it's a "works gospel"
and you are preaching that Christ did not do enough to save us...
man must DO SOMETHING in order to be regenerated.


It does not matter what "work" you pretend is the "prerequisite"
for salvation: It could be saying a sinner's prayer, or making an
altar call, or receiving water baptism, or "inviting" Jesus into your
heart, or repenting of some sins, or DECIDING (a mental "work")
to "believe" in Jesus. If you teach men must DO SOMETHING
in order to be regenerated... you have (by definition) preached
a "works gospel". Now, the more sophisticated of heretics will
claim this is a "non-meritorious" work, but they only do that
to pretend it is NOT a "work" (showing they KNOW that it is).


If ANY of these things (works) CAUSES regeneration...
then you have (by definition) a "works gospel", which is heresy,
and has always been recognized by the saints as being a heresy.


If ANY of these things (works) is the RESULT of regeneration...
then you have the True Gospel of the Bible, which is the same
monergistic Gospel of God's Sovereign Grace that Jesus preached.


Remember, when His disciples realized that Jesus was preaching
salvation by "election" (a monergistic Gospel) then MANY of them
immediately abandoned Him [John 6:65-66]. Now, WHY in the
world would anyone abandon the Son of God? And he answer is
very simple, they (like most men today) did not WANT a salvation
plan where GOD is sovereign and "elects" whoever He "chooses".
Instead, they wanted (like most men today) a salvation plan that
allows MAN to initiate the process by doing some good "work"...
like the good works listed in RED above.


All repentance is the RESULT of regeneration
and NEVER the cause. That is Christian theology 101.
Jesus was teaching salvation by "election" when MANY of His
disciples abandoned Him... it is the same today, most "Christians"
REJECT the True Gospel of monergism because they want
a synergistic "gospel" where MEN are sovereign.


Now, I understand there are basically TWO (2) "gospels"
in the church. The first (True) Gospel is that Christ did everything
needed to save "His sheep" which were "elected" before the
foundation of the world. This monergistic Gospel is the
narrow way that leads Christians into eternal life,
but FEW find it.


The other (False) "gospel" is that Christ did NOT do everything
needed to save "His sheep"... that He did SOME, but now MEN
must also do some good "work" to initiate the salvation process.
I listed some of the "good works" in RED above. Then, when God
SEES the good work that man has done... He is then OBLIGATED
to finish the salvation process. This is the BROAD WAY that leads
MANY "Christians" into eternal destruction.


Now... I agree with you that MOST "Christians" today follow
the false "gospel" of synergism, since it is the BROAD WAY.
And FEW Christians follow the True Gospel of monergism,
since it is the narrow way. Which is what Jesus foretold.


MANY are called ["called" by the Gospel of repentance]
but FEW are chosen ["chosen" or "elected" to salvation]


I am sorry to hear that you believe in synergism, where Christ
did NOT do EVERYTHING needed to save "His sheep". But I will,
as all real saints always have, follow the True Gospel of monergism
as Christ HAS DONE EVERYTHING needed to save "His sheep"
and NO MAN can "seek God" or "come to Christ" unless they
are already regenerated.


Again, we do not repent IN ORDER to get a "new heart"...
Instead, we repent BECAUSE we were given a "new heart".
That is what the True Gospel of the Bible declares... whether
you LIKE it or not.


Jim

Bond-servant of Christ said:

why does a person go to hell?

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Because of their sins. Since Christ didn't die for them God holds them accountable.

Francis Drake said:

Not so.
You need to take these verses alongside the whole counsel of scripture

Romans1v18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
(You cannot suppress the truth unless you first possess the truth!)

19because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.
(Thus proving that God has shown each man sufficient knowledge to make a righteous decision.)

20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen,
(The wonder of our created world clearly declares the wonder of our creator.)

......being understood by the things that are made,
(Not just seen but also fully understood.)

....even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,
(To remove all possible excuses, the Holy Spirit has made himself sufficiently known to all men on this planet, enabling them all to receive Him should they so choose.
Had God not revealed himself, then we would all have excuses at the final judgement!)

21because, although they knew God,
(Again, proving the unregenerate did know God!)

.....they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.

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Nature's revelation isn't a Spiritual revelation of God, that comes only through Jesus Christ Jn 17:3

And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent

Bond-servant of Christ said:

I don't think that you understand what the Bible teaches on this, because your theology is getting the better of you!

God commands all people everywhere to REPENT, this is a prerequisite for salvation. It is NOT something that a sinner does to EARN their salvation, but the sinner complying with what God demands of them! Don't twist the Word of God to try and make repentance into a "work", when it is NOT!

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Repentance is a evidence of having been born again. The command to repent is given to them that have been given repentance, which are the regenerate elect. True to the Abrahamic covenant, men of all nations are blessed through the Seed Jesus Christ, this is what causes repentance. This repentance wasn't confined to the jews but extended to all men everywhere, from all nations.

Brightfame52 said:

Fran drake

.

So what you going to do with this scripture?

Job 23:13

But he is in one mind, and who can turn him?
and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth.

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God's stated 'ultimate desire' is that ALL men be saved, but if God forced that decision on ALL men, then, whether they liked it or not, ALL men would obviously be saved.
That is a fact that you cannot escape.

The apparent conflict between these two verses,- "What his soul desires, even that he does." and also "God desires that all men be saved." is met by the fact that God also desires that man makes his own freewill choice to repent.

And that is why scripture is full of calls to repent. In fact, the scriptural calls to repent become a nonsense if man has no choice in the matter.

Francis Drake said:

God's stated 'ultimate desire' is that ALL men be saved, but if God forced that decision on ALL men, then, whether they liked it or not, ALL men would obviously be saved.
That is a fact that you cannot escape.

The apparent conflict between these two verses,- "What his soul desires, even that he does." and also "God desires that all men be saved." is met by the fact that God also desires that man makes his own freewill choice to repent.

And that is why scripture is full of calls to repent. In fact, the scriptural calls to repent become a nonsense if man has no choice in the matter.

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That doesnt cut it, you are saying mans will triumps over Gods Desire. Job 23:13

13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth.

Brightfame52 said:

Nature's revelation isn't a Spiritual revelation of God, that comes only through Jesus Christ Jn 17:3

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Romans1 completely denies that.
Creation (nature) reveals the creator, and that creator is Christ Jesus, the Word of God. And especially when the Spirit of God makes it clear that all men know that truth whether they acknowledge it or not.

And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent

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Your point?
Did you not realise that all revelation of God in the OT, was a revelation of Jesus Christ?

Brightfame52 said:

That doesnt cut it, you are saying mans will triumps over Gods Desire. Job 23:13

13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth.

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Of course man's will countless times triumphs over God's desire.
Adam in the garden of Eden proved that, plus thousands of other references prove it.
You cannot take that verse in isolation.

God desires that man walks in obedience and humility, but he also desires that man walks in freewill. Therefore God permits man to triumph over God's will.

Why is this so difficult for you?

Francis Drake said:

Romans1 completely denies that.
Creation (nature) reveals the creator, and that creator is Christ Jesus, the Word of God. And especially when the Spirit of God makes it clear that all men know that truth whether they acknowledge it or not.

Your point?
Did you not realise that all revelation of God in the OT, was a revelation of Jesus Christ?

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The point is man naturally does not know the Only True God Spiritually.

Francis Drake said:

Of course man's will countless times triumphs over God's desire.
Adam in the garden of Eden proved that, plus thousands of other references prove it.
You cannot take that verse in isolation.

God desires that man walks in obedience and humility, but he also desires that man walks in freewill. Therefore God permits man to triumph over God's will.

Why is this so difficult for you?

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Only thing I can say is blasphemy.

Francis Drake said:

In fact, the scriptural calls to repent become a nonsense if man has no choice in the matter.

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Not at all.

The fact the Gospel COMMANDS all to repent does not imply
that all are ABLE to repent. That is a humanistic "feeling" being
inserted into the TEXT.

When God declares some men were CREATED to be
"vessels of wrath"... it's nonsensical to argue they are ABLE
to repent.

When Jesus declares NO MAN can come to Him unless the Father
first "draws" them and ALL MEN the Father draws "shall come"
to Him and NONE will be lost... it's nonsensical to argue that
ALL MEN (even those not "drawn") can repent.

When Jesus declares that some men were NEVER MEANT to
"perceive" or "understand" or "be converted" or to ever
"have their sins forgiven"... it's nonsensical to argue
ALL MEN can repent.

You are only stating what you "feel"...
not what the TEXT declares.

Jim

Bond-servant of Christ said:

the "Ransom" payment is the Blood of Jesus Christ, shed for all sinners on the cross, for their sins. All sinners are enslaved to the devil and sin, and it is only through the shed blood (death) of the Lord Jesus, and faith in His blood, that can release the sinner. There is NO "kidnapping", but enslavement to the devil/sin.

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Redemptive blood released the sinner Eph 1:7

in whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

That word redemption apolytrōsis:

a releasing effected by payment of ransom

1. redemption, deliverance
   
   
2. liberation procured by the payment of a ransom
   So the all in 1 Tim 2 have been given release because the ransom has been paid.

So anyone not experiencing the release means the ransom paid wasn't for them.

5thKingdom said:

The fact the Gospel COMMANDS all to repent does not imply
that all are ABLE to repent. That is a humanistic "feeling" being
inserted into the TEXT.

When God declares some men were CREATED to be
"vessels of wrath"... it's nonsensical to argue they are ABLE
to repent.

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I believe the vessel in Romans 9:22 prepared itself for destruction – sin will do it – the verse says that God was patient. 2 Peter 3:9 says that “God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance”. God’s patience is not infinite. Satan came to destroy - Jesus came to give life.

5thKingdom said:

When Jesus declares NO MAN can come to Him unless the Father
first "draws" them and ALL MEN the Father draws "shall come"
to Him and NONE will be lost... it's nonsensical to argue that
ALL MEN (even those not "drawn") can repent.

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Who is to say that the Holy Spirit does not draw many? Many are called. Acts 7:51 indicates that it is common for men to resist the Holy Spirit.

5thKingdom said:

When Jesus declares that some men were NEVER MEANT to
"perceive" or "understand" or "be converted" or to ever
"have their sins forgiven"... it's nonsensical to argue
ALL MEN can repent.

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Jesus does not say that some were never meant to be converted. Your reference here is with Mark 4:11-12, which was said in fulfillment of Isaiah 6:9-10. Its timing - we can see in the book of Acts, especially on Pentecost, that the Gospel was no longer partially veiled as it was in Jesus's parables.



We find that in 1 Corinthians 9:19-23, Paul spoke as though his presentation of the Gospel has an impact on its acceptance by the listener. It would misleading for Paul to speak as he did if everything is predetermined by God.

God has given man free will. If God were in charge of everything on earth today (including mans choices), we would have heaven on earth. Jesus told his followers to pray “Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven” in Matthew 6:10. Notice that “be” is in the present tense. Jesus would not command his disciples to pray something that was not God’s perfect will.

John M

Who is to say that the Holy Spirit does not draw many? Many are called. Acts 7:51 indicates that it is common for men to resist the Holy Spirit.

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Thats the unregenerate, they aren't the called, nor are they the ones being drawn, they are merely showing their enmity against the Truth like the unregenerate do.

John M

I believe the vessel in Romans 9:22 prepared itself for destruction

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They do prepare themselves for destruction, because God created them for that purpose. The word fitted katērtismena I fit (join) together; met: I compact together, (b) The word is in the passive/middle meaning God is fitting them for destruction, and of course since God is Sovereign, they follow suite and fit them themselves for destruction just as God designed.