Why is torment the just punishment for sin?

d taylor said:

Outer darkness is in heaven

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So there is weeping and gnashing of teeth in heaven?

zoidar said:

In life most people want to keep their memories, even the bad ones.

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If there were a "trick" in store to erase people's memories so they would no longer have an accurate memory of what happened - then why put all of us through that to begin with? Why not just zap memories and minds to fit whatever narrative God would like to convey and save Himself death on the cross.

BobRyan said:

The point where "every tear is wiped away" in Rev 21 is after the Rev 20 lake of fire event finally ends.

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And just where in the Bible does it say that the Lake of Fire event finally ends again...?

Cause, I'm sorry, but I just don't seem to be finding that part anywhere, etc...?

God Bless!

BobRyan said:

2 Peter 3:9 "God is not willing for ANY to perish but for ALL to come to repentance"
1 John 2:2 "He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins and NOT for OUR sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD"
1 John 4:14 "God sent His Son to be the Savior of the WORLD"
Rev 3 "I stand at the door and knock - if anyone hears My voice AND OPENS the door - I will com in"

And "yet" it is the "FEW" of Matt 7 that go to heaven and the "MANY" that do not go to heaven.

"He came to His OWN and His OWN received Him not" John 1:11
"what MORE could I have done than that which I have already done??" Isaiah 5:4
"How I wanted to spare your children - but you would not" Matt 23:37

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Neogaia777 said:

I don't think your understanding what things "would have to be like" for an "all-knowing God that was always fully all-knowing always", and "always had been even ever before He ever even made, or created, or even thought of, etc, anyone or anything always already", etc...?

God Bless!

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In the above example I am just pointing to the texts where the details get skipped with some ...
I agree with you that God always knew from start to end exactly what would happen.

Notice that even though He is all-knowing (as we both agree) in Gen 6 He says this

5 Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of mankind was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of their hearts was only evil continually. 6 So the Lord was sorry that He had made mankind on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. 7 Then the Lord said, “I will wipe out mankind whom I have created from the face of the land; mankind, and animals as well, and crawling things, and the birds of the sky. For I am sorry that I have made them.” 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord.

Notice that the text does not say "ahh yes ! Mankind failed just exactly as I knew they would when I made Adam and Eve" -- because that conveys the wrong message.

God knows the future but God does not cause the evil.

BobRyan said:

If there were a "trick" in store to erase people's memories so they would no longer have an accurate memory of what happened - then why put all of us through that to begin with? Why not just zap memories and minds to fit whatever narrative God would like to convey and save Himself death on the cross.

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Cause that's not how God works or operates.

God Bless!

BobRyan said:

In the above example I am just pointing to the texts where the details get skipped with some ...
I agree with you that God always knew from start to end exactly what would happen.

Notice that even though He is all-knowing (as we both agree) in Gen 6 He says this

5 Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of mankind was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of their hearts was only evil continually. 6 So the Lord was sorry that He had made mankind on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. 7 Then the Lord said, “I will wipe out mankind whom I have created from the face of the land; mankind, and animals as well, and crawling things, and the birds of the sky. For I am sorry that I have made them.” 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord.

Notice that the text does not say "ahh yes ! Mankind failed just exactly as I knew they would when I made Adam and Eve" -- because that conveys the wrong message.

God knows the future but God does not cause the evil.

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Now I don't think your understanding the difference between our and/or Jesus Father, and God the Spirit, or God the Holy Spirit, etc...?

God Bless!

Neogaia777 said:

And just where in the Bible does it say that the Lake of Fire event finally ends again...?

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Rev 20 says it is on Earth.

7 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. 9 And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever

13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them; and they were judged, each one of them according to their deeds. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
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Rev 21 says the Earth passes away - ends and a new Earth replaces it.


Rev 21: Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea.

Neogaia777 said:

Now I don't think your understanding the difference between our and/or Jesus Father, and God the Spirit, or God the Holy Spirit, etc...?

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What makes you think that?

Deut 6:4 "One God" ... Matt 28:19 in three Persons.

BobRyan said: ↑
If there were a "trick" in store to erase people's memories so they would no longer have an accurate memory of what happened - then why put all of us through that to begin with? Why not just zap memories and minds to fit whatever narrative God would like to convey and save Himself death on the cross.

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Neogaia777 said:

Cause that's not how God works or operates.

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Well I certainly agree with you there.

zoidar said:

What would be worse? Knowing a loved one is suffering or having that knowing erased. I would say the latter.

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Nobody's memories are erased, except only maybe those who only have to go through just more of only just this more, ever again, and forever again, etc, but it is only that the memories of certain others will only go and/or fade, or fade away, in and with time, or given enough time, etc, and part of their fading away will be due to fully knowing God as a very, very just God, regardless, etc, part of it/that anyway, etc...

God Bless!

BobRyan said:

What makes you think that?

Deut 6:4 "One God" ... Matt 28:19 in three Persons.

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Yes, one God, in "three persons", etc...

God Bless!

BobRyan said:

Sin then all of it will be "as if it had never been"?? Then what was the point? Nothing learned?

In a free will system the way that right decisions can be ensured - is compelling evidence

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The "restitution of all things" strongly suggests the return of God's kingdom to a perfectly sinless state as before the rebellion, with no one being tormented forever in the back room.

zoidar said:

I don't think our memories will fade away. Jesus knows everything. If he can enjoy heaven knowing everything, we can too.

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We will probably always think about them from time to time, and will retain memory of them that way, but just not be remembering them all of the time, etc, and that was more what I meant by them fading (away), etc...

But we will probably never lose our memory of them completely, etc, the memory of them will probably just be less and less frequently brought up in our minds and hearts over time, etc...

But we will all 100% know God was 100% totally and completely just regarding whatever way each one went either way, etc...

God Bless!

zoidar said:

Please don't use this thread to discuss (or prove) whether annihilation or eternal torment, or for that sake universialism is true.

Let's just say the wicked will be tormented. Why is torment the correct punishment for sin? I don't fully get that. Even in our society we lock in our criminals, we don't torment them. I know the Bible uses language as flames and brimstone, yet it's hard for me to understand why torment is the right punishment for sin. Is there any good, if possible biblical explanation for this? What good comes from the wicked being tormented?

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I don't think anyone is denying that the wicked will be tormented (off the top of my head) it's just the length of time and the manner in which that happens.

"The worm dieth not" tells you what the nature of that torment is.
Worms eat dead, rotting flesh. Dead rotting flesh is anything that is in opposition to God, thus, torment is what happens at judgment, and it's not physical, but mental.

zoidar said:

The explanation you give is that we can't logically understand and just should accept it without understanding it?

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Oh, we can understand something of the wretchedness of our sin. The awfulness of Hell certainly communicates God's view of our wickedness. The problem, then, isn't one of logic but of being unwilling to see your sin as God does: so deeply vile, so great an offense toward Him, that it warrants eternal punishment.

I think the problem many have with Christianity is the idea that a good person...and by good I mean someone who tries to do good during his life, is repentant when he screws up and tries to make amends and if there religion is Christianity there going to be tortured for all eternity. Look at homosexuals I have heard more than one Christian say if my child was going to be sent to hell for no reason other than being gay they would go to hell with there kid. I think when you die and stand before god and are judged you will be judged not just on your religious views but on how you lived your life.

Yoko.52 said:

I think the problem many have with Christianity is the idea that a good person...and by good I mean someone who tries to do good during his life, is repentant when he screws up and tries to make amends and if there religion is Christianity there going to be tortured for all eternity. Look at homosexuals I have heard more than one Christian say if my child was going to be sent to hell for no reason other than being gay they would go to hell with there kid. I think when you die and stand before god and are judged you will be judged not just on your religious views but on how you lived your life.

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God gives us the Bible to find out about God, who He is, what He warns us about and what exactly is the Gospel plan to escape the lake of Fire doom that has been determined for all mankind.

There may be some folks who choose not to read all that much of the Bible and instead "take a swag at it" as they say in the south...making God into our own image.