Why is torment the just punishment for sin?

Mark Quayle · Dec 23, 2020

zoidar said:
Please don't use this thread to discuss (or prove) whether annihilation or eternal torment, or for that sake universialism is true.

Let's just say the wicked will be tormented. Why is torment the correct punishment for sin? I don't fully get that. Even in our society we lock in our criminals, we don't torment them. I know the Bible uses language as flames and brimstone, yet it's hard for me to understand why torment is the right punishment for sin. Is there any good, if possible biblical explanation for this? What good comes from the wicked being tormented?

Not sure what you think "torment" is in this context. I know regret, fear, pain and dismay , certainly despair and anger, possibly confusion and loneliness. Many Christians like to say that 'torment' is used instead of 'torture', because torture is imposed upon a person, but torment is from within a person. I'm not sure that applies here. It certainly isn't necessary to absolve God of wrongdoing in any case. (The Catholics seem to have decided 'torment' implies the devil and demons afflicting people in hell, which I disagree with --I don't believe the devil will find any satisfaction there. When the Word says the Lake of Fire was prepared for the Devil and his angels, I don't think it means that they will find this a suitable place to reign over --I think it means that here they find their punishment.)

The good, in any case, is that justice is served. God is altogether just; if he is not, he is not God. It is a comfort to me to know that those relegated to the Lake of Fire will receive precisely (and thoroughly) what they deserve --no more, no less.

What we do is no reflection on what God should do. Those society punishes with a prison sentence are our peers, fellow human beings. Those relegated to the Lake of Fire are not God's peers, but God's creation. Also it is worth noting that those there are utterly bereft of virtue or any other of God's graces common to fallen humanity now. They will not much resemble the being you thought you knew; God has completely withdrawn from them, all that is left is a revolting wraith, "a horror and a corruption such as you now meet, if at all, only in a nightmare" (CS Lewis) Quote by C.S. Lewis: “It is a serious thing to live in a society of p...”

Neogaia777 · Dec 23, 2020

BobRyan said:
Jude 1:24 To him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy-

Ephesians 3:20 Now to Him who is able to do exceedingly abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that works in us,

Are we to take those texts to mean "who is able to - but most certainly will never do.."?

God does not give us fake realities to consider "Hey I am able to do this .. not that I ever would ... but just so you know". That sort of mind gaming on something like eternal life or the gospel or the fate of the wicked is not the sort of game that God plays.

He is able to destroy us, means that He is able to destroy us, and I don't know how I can it make any much more clearer than that, etc...

And, God does not always choose to do all that He is able to do, no...

And your still ignoring other verses in the Bible, etc...

Some verses talk about God the Spirit or Holy Spirit, and some talk about the Father, etc, or then still some, talk about Jesus, etc, and we have to use "discernment" to decide or figure out which one it being talked about, or is speaking, etc...

God Bless!

OldWiseGuy · Dec 23, 2020

The eternal death of the wicked is actually 'mercy killing' by God. God will also protect the saved from the angst of knowing a sinful relative or friend has not been saved by erasing even the memory of them.

Redwingfan9 · Dec 23, 2020

zoidar said:
Please don't use this thread to discuss (or prove) whether annihilation or eternal torment, or for that sake universialism is true.

Let's just say the wicked will be tormented. Why is torment the correct punishment for sin? I don't fully get that. Even in our society we lock in our criminals, we don't torment them. I know the Bible uses language as flames and brimstone, yet it's hard for me to understand why torment is the right punishment for sin. Is there any good, if possible biblical explanation for this? What good comes from the wicked being tormented?

Because God is just and God hates sin. Jesus was tormented on the Cross in our place. Those destined for Hell will be tormented for their sins because God is just.

zoidar · Dec 23, 2020

Mark Quayle said:
(The Catholics seem to have decided 'torment' implies the devil and demons afflicting people in hell, which I disagree with --I don't believe the devil will find any satisfaction there. When the Word says the Lake of Fire was prepared for the Devil and his angels, I don't think it means that they will find this a suitable place to reign over --I think it means that here they find their punishment.)

What you describe I believe is a medieval idea of hell not held by Catholics (at least not of today). I think Catholics teaches that the devil and his demons will get their just punishment. By Catholics there is the idea that hell is separation from God, but don't think they have a clear teaching what that means. If there are Catholics in this thread be free to confirm, add to or disagree.

Ignatius the Kiwi · Dec 23, 2020

When you embrace sin and love it, the only thing that can come from it is torment.

I like the language that Dante uses to describe the attachment we have to our particular sins. The lustful are caught in a never ending whirlwind. The Prideful constantly keep walking forward while their heads are turned backwards.

We've let our sense of compassion in society override our commonsense and need for evil to be punished.

zoidar · Dec 23, 2020

Redwingfan9 said:
Because God is just and God hates sin. Jesus was tormented on the Cross in our place. Those destined for Hell will be tormented for their sins because God is just.

Do you think Jesus' torments were necessary to reconcile us for our sins? Or was it Jesus death and resurrection that reconciled us?

Neogaia777 · Dec 23, 2020

zoidar said:
Do you think Jesus' torment was necessary to reconcile us for our sins? Or was it Jesus death and resurrection that reconciled us?

Mind if I jump in...? Well, I hope you don't, if you don't mind really...?

Jesus death, sufferings, torment, resurrection, Love, and showing how far Love would go for us, etc, etc, etc, was all very necessary for a lot of things, etc, "a lot of things", etc, too many and too much to list on here, etc...

But part of it was to reconcile us with God the Holy Spirit, etc, take upon Himself His wrath over and about sin in us, etc, and put an end to it once and for all and forever after that, or after that point after that, etc...

That started and went all the way back to Adam and Eve, etc, and existed for a very long time after that, etc...

Also all the others demands for justice also, etc...

Anyway, that all was all taken care of by Him (Jesus) for us after that, or by all of what all He (Jesus) did during His time here, and after that, etc...

But also what all Jesus did, was even very much more than just that or those also, etc...

And I suppose if it were all of it written down fully, the entire world or universe could not contain the scrolls or the words written about it and Him (Jesus), etc...

Hope you didn't mind me jumping in...?

God Bless!

Redwingfan9 · Dec 23, 2020

zoidar said:
Do you think Jesus' torments were necessary to reconcile us for our sins? Or was it Jesus death and resurrection that reconciled us?

It's all part of the sacrifice. He had to suffer here on Earth and that suffering culminated in his death.

zoidar · Dec 23, 2020

Neogaia777 said:
Mind if I jump in...? Well, I hope you don't, if you don't mind really...?

Jesus death, sufferings, torment, resurrection, Love, and showing how far Love would go for us, etc, etc, etc, was all very necessary for a lot of things, etc, "a lot of things", etc, too many and too much to list on here, etc...

But part of it was to reconcile us with God the Holy Spirit, etc, take upon Himself His wrath over and about sin in us, etc, and put an end to it once and for all and forever after that, or after that point after that, etc...

That started and went all the way back to Adam and Eve, etc, and existed for a very long time after that, etc...

Also all the others demands for justice also, etc...

Anyway, that all was all taken care of by Him (Jesus) for us after that, or by all of what all He (Jesus) did during His time here, and after that, etc...

But also what all Jesus did, was even very much more than just that or those also, etc...

And I suppose if it were all of it written down fully, the entire world or universe could not contain the scrolls or the words written about it and Him (Jesus), etc...

Hope you didn't mind me jumping in...?

God Bless!

I don't mind. That's what forums are for.

BobRyan · Dec 23, 2020

zoidar said:
Do you think Jesus' torments were necessary to reconcile us for our sins? Or was it Jesus death and resurrection that reconciled us?

His torment, suffering and death - paid our debt (second death) owed for sin

BobRyan · Dec 23, 2020

OldWiseGuy said:
The eternal death of the wicked is actually 'mercy killing' by God. God will also protect the saved from the angst of knowing a sinful relative or friend has not been saved by erasing even the memory of them.

Sin then all of it will be "as if it had never been"?? Then what was the point? Nothing learned?

In a free will system the way that right decisions can be ensured - is compelling evidence

BobRyan · Dec 23, 2020

BobRyan said:
Matt 10:28 says "destroyed" that is not me writing it is God's Word.

"destroy BOTH body AND soul" is what happens in fiery hell according to Matt 10:28. I did not make that up.

But the Bible also says the wicked are tormented in real fire and real brimstone. That is also true. Some as Christ said - "receive many stripes" and others "few stripes" Luke 12:44-49 ... I also did not write Luke 12.

He does not say "all get infinite stripes no matter what they did"

The 14 year old that goes to hell and Hitler that goes to hell do not both get "infinite torture"

Objecting to me pointing this out does not change the text.

You are the one that argues for mind-zap to solve the problem that our loved ones suffer now in endless torment (before they are even judged) and then will be judged and resume their time if infinite torture in the lake of fire.

I simply point out that if you know it is a mind-zap solution now - you will continue to know for all eternity that you have been mind-zapped not to care. And that will "raise questions" unless you are so chained to one way of thinking in a non-free-will system that you are "not allowed to remember you knew you would be mind-zapped in the future".

And if you take that horrific scenario to its logical end - then comes the next most obvious question... "If God is going to brain-erase mind-zap everyone in the end... then what in the world was the point of allowing this 6000 years of torment on Earth sin-experiment??". In fact why should God allow Himself to be tortured at all on the cross if all He was going to do is brain-wipe everyone and robot-ize them to think as He dictated in the end.. nothing learned... nothing gained... nothing remembered... nothing accomplished ??

My point is that if you accept the texts I have posted about both body and soul destroyed in fiery hell Matt 10:28 and that even Satan is reduced to ashes Ezek 28 - after some period of literal torment.. it leads to a conclusion fully consistent with the points listed above.

Neogaia777 said:
Emotion, emotion, emotion, so much emotion, ...

On the contrary I am simply pointing out the the details in the inconvenient texts I am quoting showing that infinite torture is not the reward for finite sin -- makes sense of all of it.

"My point is that if you accept the texts I have posted about both body and soul destroyed in fiery hell Matt 10:28 and that even Satan is reduced to ashes Ezek 28 - after some period of literal torment.. it leads to a conclusion fully consistent with the points listed above."

Neogaia777 said:
The ones meant to go to Heaven are not "mind-zapped" but only the ones who go to quote/unquote "Hell"

Nor are the wicked mind-zapped. No text says God erases the memory of those who go to the lake of fire. Rather in Rev 20 He specifically brings up the very things they did - in that judgment. The Bible text actually points to infallible record revealed in Rev 20... not mind-erased.

This is not an emotional argument on my part... I am simply showing how all the details fit.

BobRyan · Dec 23, 2020

Neogaia777 said:
P.S, how did you hide this part of it in it being part of your response to me when I quoted it, but it not showing up on the thread...?

Cause that is a very impressive trick, and I'd like to know just how you did that exactly, etc...?

I too would like to know just what it is you are claiming that I did.

Neogaia777 · Dec 23, 2020

BobRyan said:
I too would like to know just what it is you are claiming that I did.

Did you actually write that second part I quoted of your post (post #75) in my post #78...?

Cause it wasn't there for awhile...?

But I see it is now, so, nevermind I guess, etc...?

God Bless!

BobRyan · Dec 23, 2020

Neogaia777 said:
And one of my ideas is, that those who do not get to go or get into Heaven, but go to Hell, etc, or more appropriately the Lake of Fire after the very final Judgement or chance here, etc, just were simply never ever meant to ever go to Heaven at all ever here, or ever be or exist in Heaven at all ever here, etc, but it is only "the other" is still only reserved for them after here at all ever after here ever at all ever here, etc, and I say "still" cause that would run along the lines of what I/me/you/we would think they/it is, or actually is/are, or would be here, etc...

2 Peter 3:9 "God is not willing for ANY to perish but for ALL to come to repentance"
1 John 2:2 "He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins and NOT for OUR sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD"
1 John 4:14 "God sent His Son to be the Savior of the WORLD"
Rev 3 "I stand at the door and knock - if anyone hears My voice AND OPENS the door - I will com in"

And "yet" it is the "FEW" of Matt 7 that go to heaven and the "MANY" that do not go to heaven.

"He came to His OWN and His OWN received Him not" John 1:11
"what MORE could I have done than that which I have already done??" Isaiah 5:4
"How I wanted to spare your children - but you would not" Matt 23:37

BobRyan · Dec 23, 2020

Neogaia777 said:
Did you actually write that second part I quoted of your post (post #75) in my post #78...?

I added this at the end "My point is that if you accept the texts I have posted about both body and soul destroyed in fiery hell Matt 10:28 and that even Satan is reduced to ashes Ezek 28 - after some period of literal torment.. it leads to a conclusion fully consistent with the points listed above." -- as a point of clarity when I saw that you seem to mischaracterize the whole thing as "emotion".

I am one of those who fully agree that if the Bible says "A" and my response is "well that is just terrible! How horrible of God to say that! I refuse to believe it" -- that such an emotional outburst does not change the fact that God says "A" and is not a Bible argument against accepting the "A" statement.

I would admit to that all day long.

People on this forum have differed with me on this or on that subject - but very few find me to post mere emotion as my argument. I believe we should let the Bible speak.

BobRyan · Dec 23, 2020

Mark Quayle said:
Not sure what you think "torment" is in this context. I know regret, fear, pain and dismay , certainly despair and anger, possibly confusion and loneliness. Many Christians like to say that 'torment' is used instead of 'torture', because torture is imposed upon a person, but torment is from within a person. I'm not sure that applies here. It certainly isn't necessary to absolve God of wrongdoing in any case. (The Catholics seem to have decided 'torment' implies the devil and demons afflicting people in hell, which I disagree with --I don't believe the devil will find any satisfaction there. When the Word says the Lake of Fire was prepared for the Devil and his angels, I don't think it means that they will find this a suitable place to reign over --I think it means that here they find their punishment.)

The good, in any case, is that justice is served. God is altogether just; if he is not, he is not God. It is a comfort to me to know that those relegated to the Lake of Fire will receive precisely (and thoroughly) what they deserve --no more, no less.

What we do is no reflection on what God should do. Those society punishes with a prison sentence are our peers, fellow human beings. Those relegated to the Lake of Fire are not God's peers, but God's creation. Also it is worth noting that those there are utterly bereft of virtue or any other of God's graces common to fallen humanity now. They will not much resemble the being you thought you knew; God has completely withdrawn from them, all that is left is a revolting wraith, "a horror and a corruption such as you now meet, if at all, only in a nightmare" (CS Lewis) Quote by C.S. Lewis: “It is a serious thing to live in a society of p...”

While I agree with most of that... I also think that "the detail" we find in Matt 10:28 that both body and soul are destroyed in fiery hell is not to be skimmed over.

The detail we find Jude -- that Sodom and Gomorrah "are exhibited as examples of undergoing the punishment of eternal fire" is not to be skimmed over.

The detail we find in Ezek 28 - that the fallen angel - "The covering Cherub" is to be "reduced to ashes" is not to be skimmed over.

So yes "fire and brimstone" in that lake of fire - and also real torment in that real lake of fire... but still the "detail" that we find in Luke 12:44-49 where some get 'many stripes' and others get "few" is not to be skimmed over.

The point where "every tear is wiped away" in Rev 21 is after the Rev 20 lake of fire event finally ends.

Neogaia777 · Dec 23, 2020

BobRyan said:
2 Peter 3:9 "God is not willing for ANY to perish but for ALL to come to repentance"
1 John 2:2 "He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins and NOT for OUR sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD"
1 John 4:14 "God sent His Son to be the Savior of the WORLD"
Rev 3 "I stand at the door and knock - if anyone hears My voice AND OPENS the door - I will com in"

And "yet" it is the "FEW" of Matt 7 that go to heaven and the "MANY" that do not go to heaven.

"He came to His OWN and His OWN received Him not" John 1:11
"what MORE could I have done than that which I have already done??" Isaiah 5:4
"How I wanted to spare your children - but you would not" Matt 23:37

I don't think your understanding what things "would have to be like" for an "all-knowing God that was always fully all-knowing always", and "always had been even ever before He ever even made, or created, or even thought of, etc, anyone or anything always already", etc...?

God Bless!

zoidar · Dec 23, 2020

BobRyan said:
Sin then all of it will be "as if it had never been"?? Then what was the point? Nothing learned?

In a free will system the way that right decisions can be ensured - is compelling evidence

In life most people want to keep their memories, even the bad ones.

Why is torment the just punishment for sin?

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