Repentance in the Reformed Confessions of Faith

5thKingdom said:

No, I have not conflated anything.
Men who were NEVER MEANT to be saved are
(a) destined to damnation and
(b) not able to repent

Click to expand...

You keep stating (b), but never actually prove it.
John 3 and Romans 1 ascribe a different reason for their lack of repentance than “inability”.

BBAS 64 said:

For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot.

Click to expand...

At least you are refuting me with Scripture instead of opinions.

I agree that the “mind set on the flesh” (which would be the “natural man” of 1 Corinthians 2 or all of us in Ephesians 2:1-4) cannot submit to the God’s law (which would be summarized in the Greatest Commandments of Love God and Love People in Luke 10:27). However I would counter that King David was unable to fulfill the Law (he needed a savior just like we do), yet David was able to repent of his sin when confronted by the Prophet. This suggests that there might be a difference between “submitting to God’s Law” and “repenting of our missing the mark”.

I am not suggesting that sinners DO repent, but rather I posit that the reason why they do not repent is a heart that is UNWILLING to repent rather than a heart that is physically incapable of turning to God.

When Adam sinned, he hid himself until God CALLED Adam to come to God. Was Adam unable to go to God and repent or was Adam merely unwilling to go to Adam. Later God warned Cain that sin was waiting to ensnare him. Was Cain unable to heed God’s warning or merely unwilling to listen? What does it say about God to warn Cain that he is about to sin if Cain is powerless to heed God’s warning and repent? What does it say about Cain and God if Cain has the ability to repent, but was personally unwilling to obey God?

That is the issue that I see at stake in the claim that men CANNOT repent, yet God calls all men to repent. That is why the confessions tend to carefully word it that God PREDESTINES to salvation, but God merely “passes over” the reprobate. Scripture never says that God is responsible for men’s sinful condition except in the sense that God allows it. Romans 1 provides an excellent illustration. God does not make men evil, God merely “gives them over” (allows) their innate evil desires to run their course.

atpollard said:

God bless you, but I have wasted enough time chasing your unfounded claims.

Click to expand...

As I have already shown you... I PROVIDED the Scriptures
teaching some men were NEVER MEANT to be saved....
look at post #14 and post #18


Did you RESPOND to the SCRIPTURES provided in post
#14 and post #18.... no, you intentionally IGNORED the
Scriptures because they immediately destroy your current
"gospel"... so you have NO CHOICE but to pretend.


Anyone and Everyone can see that you are just PRETENDING
I have not provided you with Scripture. Listen, I understand,
I really do. If you were to admit that some people were
NEVER MEANT to be saved... it would immediately destroy
your current "gospel". And you could not handle that...
So you have NO CHOICE but to pretend I did not already
provide the SCRIPTURES to you.
(even when they are recorded in posts #14 and #18)


If you want to PRETEND I did not provide the Scriptures then
you are only PRETENDING to yourself.


Jim

atpollard said:

You keep stating (b), but never actually prove it.
John 3 and Romans 1 ascribe a different reason for their lack of repentance than “inability”.

Click to expand...

Read post #14 and #18.
Notice there are SCRIPTURES in those posts.
Why do you IGNORE those SCRIPTURES and
why do you PRETEND they were not provided?


The answer is simple:
You cannot handle the Scriptures so you MUST
ignore them and PRETEND you never saw them.


How very sad


Jim

atpollard said:

You keep stating (b), but never actually prove it.
John 3 and Romans 1 ascribe a different reason for their lack of repentance than “inability”.

Click to expand...

You are embarrassing yourself PRETENDING
Read the SCRIPTURES below:


Mar 4:11 And he said unto them, [His disciples] Unto you
it is given to know the mystery of The Kingdom of God:
but unto them that are without, [outside the Kingdom]
all these things are done in parables:


Mar 4:12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive;
[they could NOT perceive] and hearing they may hear,
and not understand; [they could NOT understand]
LEST AT ANY TIME they should be converted,
[they could NOT be converted] and their sins should
be forgiven them. [their sins could NOT be forgiven]


Now... you can PRETEND these people
(1) could perceive (but you contradict Jesus)
(2) could understand (but you contradict Jesus)
(3) could be converted (but you contradict Jesus)
(4) could be forgiven (but you contradict Jesus)


Listen, I UNDERSTAND why you cannot ACCEPT what Jesus said.
It immediately DESTROYS your current "gospel"... so you are
FORCED to pretend that Jesus did not say what He said.
But you are ONLY PRETENDING to yourself.


Jim

5thKingdom said:

As I have already shown you... I PROVIDED the Scriptures
teaching some men were NEVER MEANT to be saved....

Click to expand...

If only that was the question that I had asked, your answer would have been perfect. Unfortunately, you have chosen to completely ignore what I did ask and simply taken three opportunities to answer a question that I never asked.

Shalom.

5thKingdom said:

Why do you IGNORE those SCRIPTURES and
why do you PRETEND they were not provided?

Click to expand...

The scriptures do not address the question that I asked, but only the question that you feel like answering. That is why I ignore them. They are irrelevant to what I asked you.

atpollard said:

If only that was the question that I had asked, your answer would have been perfect. Unfortunately, you have chosen to completely ignore what I did ask and simply taken three opportunities to answer a question that I never asked. Shalom.

Click to expand...

In other words you simply CANNOT handle the information in
the last post #25... so you must run away and PRETEND the
Bible does not say what it says. I understand.

Jim

atpollard said:

The scriptures do not address the question that I asked, but only the question that you feel like answering. That is why I ignore them. They are irrelevant to what I asked you.

Click to expand...

I don't even remember you EVER asking a question.
I have been trying since post #14 and #18 to get you
to address some Scriptures.

I have settled down to ONE question in post #25...
and you cannot even handle the ONE passage [Mark 4:11-12]
so you are FORCED to pretend the issue is that something other
than your inability to address a Scripture.

As I said before. You can pretend as much as you want,
you are only pretending to yourself.

It only takes ONE PASSAGE [Mark 4:11-12] to prove that
some men were NEVER MEANT to be saved... as is shown
in post #25.

I understand that Biblical reality destroys your "gospel" so
you are forced to make up excuses for REJECTING and
intentionally IGNORING Scripture.

Very sad.
Do real saints EVER reject and ignore Scripture?

Jim

5thKingdom said:

In other words you simply CANNOT handle the information in the last post #25... so you must run away and PRETEND the Bible does not say what it says. I understand.

Click to expand...

Sigh ... OK, let’s go look at Post #25.

5thKingdom said:

You are embarrassing yourself PRETENDING

Click to expand...

Your grace towards a brother in inspiring.

I pretend nothing. I just asked where the Bible says that men “ARE UNABLE TO REPENT” as you keep claiming, but never get an answer to THAT question.

5thKingdom said:

Read the SCRIPTURES below:

Click to expand...

I prefer scripture without the added commentary.


I agree with every word.
I do not see the word “repent” anywhere in there.
I do not see any claim that men are UNABLE TO REPENT.

5thKingdom said:

Now... you can PRETEND these people
(1) could perceive (but you contradict Jesus)
(2) could understand (but you contradict Jesus)
(3) could be converted (but you contradict Jesus)
(4) could be forgiven (but you contradict Jesus)

Click to expand...

I do not claim or believe that those without “ears to hear” can perceive (1) or understand (2) scriptural or spiritual truths.
I do not claim or believe that “natural men” can be saved (3) without the gift of faith (Eph 2:8-9).
I do not claim or believe that the spiritually dead are forgiven (4) apart from the “birth from above” by the Holy Spirit (John 3).

5thKingdom said:

Listen, I UNDERSTAND why you cannot ACCEPT what Jesus said.
It immediately DESTROYS your current "gospel"... so you are
FORCED to pretend that Jesus did not say what He said.
But you are ONLY PRETENDING to yourself.

Click to expand...

You understand NOTHING about me, starting with what I asked and continuing on into what I believe. I am a Particular Baptist, making me a 5 point Calvinist and a complete Monergist.

In short, I believe NONE of what you continue to accuse me of believing. You have simply presented unsupported opinions as facts and offered support for anything and everything EXCEPT the one point that I asked about.

You said MAN IS UNABLE TO REPENT and I asked WHERE the Bible says MAN IS UNABLE TO REPENT. Mark 4 does not say “man is unable to repent”.

John 3 says men WILL NOT COME TO THE LIGHT. It does not say that men are UNABLE TO COME TO THE LIGHT.

atpollard said:

John 3 says men WILL NOT COME TO THE LIGHT. It does not say that men are UNABLE TO COME TO THE LIGHT.

Click to expand...

It does not matter WHAT John 3 says because we are
talking about Mark 4:11-12 and Matthew 13 and Romans 9.
Besides, your "understanding" of John 3 must harmonize with
Mark 4 and Matthew 13 and Romans 9 in order to be valid.


Mark 4:11 says that SOME MEN are given understanding...
those who belong to the "Kingdom of God". But it certainly
does not say that ALL MEN belong to the Kingdom, in fact it
specifically says the exact opposite ("those who are without")


Mark 4:12 says SOME MEN (those who do NOT belong to the
"Kingdom of God") cannot ever "perceive" or ever "understand"
or ever "be converted" or ever "have their sins forgiven"


Men who cannot "be converted" or "have their sins forgiven",
are men that were NEVER MEANT to be saved... they cannot
"repent" or "have their sins forgiven",


It doesn't matter if this fact is too complicated for you to understand
and it doesn't matter if you decide to reject or ignore this Scripture.
Biblical Truth is not contingent of your understanding or acceptance.


Listen... this is not "news". Jesus taught in Matthew 13 that
the church contains saved "wheat" sown by God and destined
to eternal life AND unsaved "tares" sown by Satan and destined
to the same fire as Satan. This is a well known and accepted
Biblical FACT... this is Christian theology 101.


Just like Mark 4:12... the unsaved "tares" were NEVER MEANT
to be saved. They cannot "perceive" or ever "understand" or ever
"be converted" or ever "have their sins forgiven" because they
are always going to be the "children of Satan".


The Gospel is very clear... some men were NEVER MEANT
to be saved. In Romans 9 it calls them "vessels of wrath"
(instead of "vessels of mercy"). Again, this is theology 101.
God CREATED some men to be "vessels of mercy" and others
to be "vessels of wrath". Clearly the "vessels of wrath" are men
who were NEVER MEANT to be saved... why is this "news" to you?


Saint Augustine said (I paraphrase) when you believe the verses
that you LIKE, and you reject or ignore all the verses you don't like,
then you are NOT following the Gospel of the Bible at all...
you are creating your own "gospel".


It is certainly your prerogative to accept the verses you LIKE
and reject or ignore all the Scripture that contradict your system.
But your are only pretending to yourself.


And you certainly cannot be taken seriously when you reject
and ignore all the Scriptures that contradict your "designer" gospel.


Jim

atpollard said:

You said MAN IS UNABLE TO REPENT and I asked WHERE the Bible says MAN IS UNABLE TO REPENT. Mark 4 does not say “man is unable to repent”.

Click to expand...

No sir... I said SOME MEN are unable to repent...
because that's what Scripture says.


Mark 4:12 says SOME MEN are unable to "perceive" or "understand" or "be converted" or "have their sins forgiven".


These men were clearly NEVER MEANT to be saved (since their sins
could not be forgiven) and, therefore, they were NEVER MEANT
to repent unto salvation.


It is a shame if this is too complicated for you to comprehend.
But you lack of understanding does not limit Biblical Truth.


Just as your rejection and/or intentional ignoring of Scripture
does not limit Biblical Truth.


Jim

5thKingdom said:

No sir... I said SOME MEN are unable to repent...
because that's what Scripture says.


Mark 4:12 says SOME MEN are unable to "perceive" or "understand" or "be converted" or "have their sins forgiven".

Click to expand...

Thank you for proving my point.
The verses you quote do not say “repent”; that is something that YOU have added to the Word of God.
The technical term is eisegesis. Reading your preconceived personal meanings into scripture.

If man is unable to “repent” (change his understanding to see his actions as evil), then holding men accountable for their actions is not “justice”. Scripture clearly teaches that men are aware that their actions are evil and CHOOSE evil over good. You are denying this basic teaching of scripture by claiming some unable to repent with no verses to support your claim. Some Men (actually all men) are unable to avoid DOING evil, but that does not mean that they do not know that sin is wrong (which would be the case for UNABLE to repent).

5thKingdom said:

It is a shame if this is too complicated for you to comprehend.

Click to expand...

“Unable” is not the same thing as “unwilling”.
That is the point that you REFUSE to comprehend.

“Repent” is not the same as “born from above” (saved).
That is another point that you REFUSE to comprehend.

I will not return your slanders by accusing you of being “unable to comprehend” anything (this calling into question your intelligence), however I will call into question your honesty in deliberately pretending that “unable = unwilling” and “repent = saved”.

atpollard said:

Thank you for proving my point.
The verses you quote do not say “repent”; that is something that YOU have added to the Word of God.

Click to expand...

You only continue to embarrass yourself.
When the Bible says some men are NEVER MEANT to be saved
that MEANS they were NEVER MEANT to "repent" because
repentance is PART of being saved.


How embarrassing to not understand that repentance
is PART of the salvation process and no (real) repentance
EVER HAPPENS to those who are NOT SAVED.


Jim

disciple Clint said:

Looks like what you have said here is correct, your post is unclear as to what objections others have had to what you have posted, could you be more clear on that so I can get an idea of the other side on the issue? Thanks

Click to expand...

Well some believe that repentance is simply a change of mind from not believing to believing and that repentance doesn’t actually involve refraining from sin.

atpollard said:

“Unable” is not the same thing as “unwilling”.

Click to expand...

That is certain.
When the Bible PROMISES that some men are NEVER MEANT
(unable) to "have their sins forgiven"... that does not mean
they are "unwilling" to be forgiven. It means they are unable.

That is the point that you REFUSE to comprehend.

Click to expand...

Read the comment above again carefully.
When men are NEVER MEANT (unable) to
"have their sins forgiven" then it does not
matter that they are "willing" to be forgiven...
they can be "willing" all day long but it will
NEVER HAPPEN.

I will not return your slanders by accusing you of being “unable to comprehend” anything (this calling into question your intelligence), however I will call into question your honesty in deliberately pretending that “unable = unwilling” and “repent = saved”.

Click to expand...

You are hilarious.
It is JESUS that says some men were NEVER MEANT
to "perceive" or "understand". I only REPEATED what Jesus said.

Your fight is with Jesus (not with me)


Jim

5thKingdom said:

You only continue to embarrass yourself.
When the Bible says some men are NEVER MEANT to be saved
that MEANS they were NEVER MEANT to "repent" because
repentance is PART of being saved.

Click to expand...

Which part of “unwilling is not the same as unable” don’t you understand? Both result in “never meant to”.

You continue to deliberately miss the point.
You have still not provided a verse that supports your claim that “SOME MEN ARE UNABLE TO REPENT” and substituted insulting me for supporting your position with actual scripture.

Here are some scriptures on repenting:

• [Psa 7:12 NASB] 12 If a man does not repent, He will sharpen His sword; He has bent His bow and made it ready. (“Does not” ... not “can not”; unwilling rather than unable)
  
  
• [Jer 15:7 NASB] 7 "I will winnow them with a winnowing fork At the gates of the land; I will bereave [them] of children, I will destroy My people; They did not repent of their ways. (“Did not” ... not “can not”; choice rather than inability)
  
  
• [Eze 18:30 NASB] 30 "Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, each according to his conduct," declares the Lord GOD. "Repent and turn away from all your transgressions, so that iniquity may not become a stumbling block to you. (A command to all to repent; does God make empty promises?)
  
  
• [Mar 6:12 NASB] 12 They went out and preached that [men] should repent. (To preach that men SHOULD repent implies that they CAN repent; that makes the choice to NOT REPENT the guilt of the men and the just punishment of God.)

Here are all of the verses in the Bible that contain BOTH “unable” and “repent”:

(That’s right, none.)

atpollard said:

You have still not provided a verse that supports your claim
that “SOME MEN ARE UNABLE TO REPENT”

Click to expand...

(1) Continue to pretend that men who cannot
"have their sins forgiven" are able to repent.

(2) Continue to pretend that NO MAN will "seek God"
means they are able repent.

(3) Continue to pretend that unsaved "tares"
sown by Satan are able to repent.

(4) Continue to pretend that "vessels of wrath"
are able to repent.

Enjoy all your pretending because you only prove Jesus was correct
when He said that some men cannot "perceive" or "understand".

Jim

atpollard said:

To preach that men SHOULD repent implies that they CAN repent;

Click to expand...

No it does not... that is you pretending again.
The Bible command that all men should repent
does NOT MEAN that all men are able to repent.


MANY are called ["called" by the Gospel of repentance]
but FEW are chosen ["chosen" to be saved]


This is Christian Theology 101
Why is it "news" to you?


Jim