Who Doesn't Go To Hell?

Aussie Pete said:

Christians have something Adam never had. We are alive in Christ. If we will depend on Lord Jesus to be our life, we will have all the resources of God mad available to us through Him. If we choose to live out of our own cleverness, talents, wit and self will, we will miss God's best.

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Even Jesus was dependent on the Father. I believe that his miracles were done in his humanity, not in his deity. Otherwise, how could he expect us to "do even greater things than these"? (John 14:12)

John 5:19
Jesus gave them this answer: “Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.

John 8:28
So Jesus said, “When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me.

Saint Steven said:

I used to believe that. But it raises some questions. And it may be an aspect of "total depravity" that you are speaking forth. But if you are taking that past our inability to save ourselves, I think you have gone too far with it. It doesn't mean that we are worthless to God.

At face value "God owes nobody anything" is true. But what can we EXPECT from him based on his character?

Matthew 12:20
A bruised reed he will not break, and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out, till he has brought justice through to victory.

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I'm not saying we are worthless to God --Obviously he had a reason to make us. I AM saying that our worth is according to his use for us, not according to anything innate of ourselves. When God has withdrawn himself from those in the end relegated to the Lake of Fire, they will have no virtue, nothing about them to commend themselves to anyone, no ability to better themselves in any way.

Saint Steven said:

Yes. You made a statement about the Church (capital C) and the Elect. (those God chose to not go to "hell"?) Which means everyone else was elected/predestined for eternal conscious torment. (what you call justice - because "God owes nobody anything")

Mark Quayle said: ↑
My point is that that level of innocence is not the plan God had in mind for his particular people --the Church, the Elect.

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What, is not the Church, the Elect, the whole plan of God in the end, his particular creation, to be forever with him? I was talking about Heaven. He does this for his own glory, for his own sake --it will happen, and no, the others are not privy to it.

I call what God does to the forever lost "justice" because they have sinned. You still don't seem to understand what a horror sin is. None of us know how bad it is, nor quite what Christ undertook in substituting for us in punishment. One way of saying it is, it is cosmic treason. Pride, as though we are something in and of ourselves, relegating our very Creator to irrelevance.

Friedrich Rubinstein said:

I would say there are only few people who think that Jesus' crucifixion was not enough to pay for their sins.

By far the most people who end up in hell are going there because they don't believe that a God exists in the first place - or think that Jesus is a myth.

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I hate to point fingers but there’s a lot of people out there that believe in purgatory which specifically states that Jesus’ sacrifice doesn’t actually pay for all our sins. So there’s actually more people than most realize that don’t truly believe that Christ’s sacrifice paid for all their sins.

Mark Quayle said:

I'm not saying we are worthless to God --Obviously he had a reason to make us. I AM saying that our worth is according to his use for us, not according to anything innate of ourselves. When God has withdrawn himself from those in the end relegated to the Lake of Fire, they will have no virtue, nothing about them to commend themselves to anyone, no ability to better themselves in any way.

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This is the way Damnationism devalues humanity. Those created in God's image.

Mark Quayle said:

I call what God does to the forever lost "justice" because they have sinned. You still don't seem to understand what a horror sin is. None of us know how bad it is, nor quite what Christ undertook in substituting for us in punishment. One way of saying it is, it is cosmic treason. Pride, as though we are something in and of ourselves, relegating our very Creator to irrelevance.

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Who created sin? For what purpose was it created? (hint: God created everything)

WebersHome said:

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God saw everything well in advance. I know that's true because according to 1Pet 1:18-20 and Rev 13:8, Christ's crucifixion was factored into the master plan of the construction of the cosmos before even so much as one atom was created for it.

Christ wasn't standing by on call in case he was needed. No, his crucifixion was a scheduled event that took place right on time; the very hour.


Yes; just as you might feel sympathy for your dog when it has to be put down for mauling a child.

An interesting comparison is made when we consider that you can't possibly foresee a dog's behavior before bringing it home to be your pet; whereas God foresaw everything about everyone prior to getting the show on the road with Adam.
_

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If you were an investor, would you invest in an expense product that had a 99.99 percent failure rate?

Saint Steven said:

Who created sin? For what purpose was it created? (hint: God created everything)

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Sin is an un-thing. That's not just wiggling out; sin is one-of-a-kind, even if we wanted to call it a principle (since God made principle itself, and is subject to no principle from outside himself) it is not like any other, all of which are governing of fact, nature, evolving of the universe, etc. Sin is not that kind of principle. Sin is not so light in nature that God can easily handle it, forgive it at a whim, etc. Sin directly opposes God, and God does not oppose himself --therefore, God did not make sin, as such, but allowed for it to be. God is not the author of sin.

We want a logical formula to show who did what and from what or how did sin spring forth. There is no doubt that God could easily enough crush sin anytime he wanted to --but he had a reason for sin, and WE are that reason, for his own sake. And that is why his "heel is bruised" --I tend to think, eternally bruised. It is the only thing that can harm God, and that fact is by God's design.

Saint Steven said:

This is the way Damnationism devalues humanity. Those created in God's image.

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You have some reason then, to think that any of us has some intrinsic value unrelated to God's use for us? Some innate worth? How so?

Saint Steven said:

Even Jesus was dependent on the Father. I believe that his miracles were done in his humanity, not in his deity. Otherwise, how could he expect us to "do even greater things than these"? (John 14:12)

John 5:19
Jesus gave them this answer: “Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.

John 8:28
So Jesus said, “When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me.

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Yes, Lord Jesus came to the earth as the "Last Adam". He emptied Himself of all that made Him God so that He could could be truly man.

BNR32FAN said:

I hate to point fingers but there’s a lot of people out there that believe in purgatory which specifically states that Jesus’ sacrifice doesn’t actually pay for all our sins. So there’s actually more people than most realize that don’t truly believe that Christ’s sacrifice paid for all their sins.

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You are right, although I would not say that someone who believes in purgatory will go to hell for that. Some people believe in purgatory because their church teaches it (without checking the Bible for it themselves) and others believe in purgatory because they cannot deal with the fact that people will be in hell for all eternity.
While this thread is about "people going to hell because they don't believe that Jesus' sacrifice is enough" I think not all Christians believing in purgatory are part of that group

WebersHome said:

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NO.
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Well, that is what the claims of Damnationism say about God's plan for humankind. The vast majority created just to burn for eternity. Predestined for eternal conscious torment.

The Damnationists refuse to blame God for creating hell and for purposely predestining the vast majority to abide there forever. Claiming sinners want to go to hell. Claiming they deserve it. Claiming it is God's perfect justice. Claiming that heaven would be hell if these perpetrators didn't suffer eternally.

The gospel of Damnationism is an expense product with a 99.99 percent failure rate. Yet Damnationists will fight tooth and nail to preserve it. They have their Get-out-of-hell-free card. So, why worry about anyone else? Those who end up there deserve it anyway. Who can question God's perfect justice?

Saint Steven said: ↑
If you were an investor, would you invest in an expense product that had a 99.99 percent failure rate?

Mark Quayle said:

Sin is an un-thing. That's not just wiggling out; sin is one-of-a-kind, even if we wanted to call it a principle (since God made principle itself, and is subject to no principle from outside himself) it is not like any other, all of which are governing of fact, nature, evolving of the universe, etc. Sin is not that kind of principle. Sin is not so light in nature that God can easily handle it, forgive it at a whim, etc. Sin directly opposes God, and God does not oppose himself --therefore, God did not make sin, as such, but allowed for it to be. God is not the author of sin.

We want a logical formula to show who did what and from what or how did sin spring forth. There is no doubt that God could easily enough crush sin anytime he wanted to --but he had a reason for sin, and WE are that reason, for his own sake. And that is why his "heel is bruised" --I tend to think, eternally bruised. It is the only thing that can harm God, and that fact is by God's design.

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God had a discussion with Cain about this. Sin is definitely a thing. A thing with desires.

And if it hurts God, it will do so for all eternity with no end if what Damnationism claims is true. The hell of Damnationism makes sin eternal.

Genesis 4:7
If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.”

Mark Quayle said:

You have some reason then, to think that any of us has some intrinsic value unrelated to God's use for us? Some innate worth? How so?

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Your question seems to prove my point.
The words stare at me blankly, unable to comprehend the value of a living breathing soul for which God gave his only begotten to purchase back from death. smh

Saint Steven said: ↑
This is the way Damnationism devalues humanity. Those created in God's image.

Friedrich Rubinstein said:

You are right, although I would not say that someone who believes in purgatory will go to hell for that. Some people believe in purgatory because their church teaches it (without checking the Bible for it themselves) and others believe in purgatory because they cannot deal with the fact that people will be in hell for all eternity.
While this thread is about "people going to hell because they don't believe that Jesus' sacrifice is enough" I think not all Christians believing in purgatory are part of that group

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It seems that many Christians think that St. Peter will be at the gate to heaven checking people's doctrine to see if they should come in or stay out. - lol

And ironically they believe that only the doctrine of their particular church will allow entrance. Too bad for everyone else.

Mark Quayle said:

Sin is not so light in nature that God can easily handle it

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Or... possibly... its so dangerous that you have to take extreme measures.
Something that grows over time, and keeps growing and likes to spread.
There are a lot of scriptures about 'the kingdom of God' being something that is planted and grows.

Sin, I think is similar - it doesn't stop growing. It may follow something like a 'cancer' model, starting in one area of the soul/life and spreading to another. On a societal level, it follows the same model, doesn't it?

This would be... pretty dangerous for something that was eternal/immortal, there would be no end to it. And instead of dying of a tumor there would be a continued twisting towards Selfishness, away from God, humility, any of the fruits of the Spirit (if you list them and then think of a growing, continued absence or twisting of them, you shortly arrive at something which definitely has no place in Heaven)

People think of Hell as a torturebox. But... it might be more like Chemotherapy for God.

(of course, the cancer cells may not feel the same way about it, but since He is trying to take us back into Him, and rescue us from it, I think He has the final say in the matter)

I think of people like trees; they grow and then they bear fruit based on the Spirit they were sown in. That is the fruit that we will be eating for eternity. Some will call that Heaven, and others will call that Hell.

Petros2015 said:

People think of Hell as a torturebox. But... it might be more like Chemotherapy for God.

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That's a good analogy. Jesus said...

Mark 9:49
Everyone will be salted with fire.