The Day of the Lord is at Hand for all the Nations

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Timtofly

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Does 2 Peter 3 leave any room for anything in this timeline to continue happening as Keras suggests?

2 Peter 3
8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.

11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.

14 So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him. 15 Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

17 Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure position. 18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen
Yes it does.

Peter does not say the NHNE starts, he says we look forward to it even if the heavens themselves disappear and the earth is laid bare. When God comes on the throne in the 6th Seal that is exactly what happens except there are still mountains to hide under, but nothing of man's doing will hide humanity from God. Only the heavens are dissolved. Peter says the earth is laid bare. That is not the end of earth. At least not the translation you chose, puts it that way. The end as you and some here imagine, is just that, private imagination. Another translation:

On that Day the heavens will disappear with a roar, the elements will melt and disintegrate, and the earth and everything in it will be burned up.

Since everything is going to be destroyed like this, what kind of people should you be?

This implies the earth is burned up as well.

the day of the Lord -- as a thief in the night, in which the heavens with a rushing noise will pass away, and the elements with burning heat be dissolved, and earth and the works in it shall be burnt up.

All these, then, being dissolved, what kind of persons doth it behove you to be in holy behaviours and pious acts?

This is less sure about the earth. It does not seem to imply either way. "And earth" is or is not the object like the heavens, because after we see "and the works in it shall be burnt up." It is still distinguishing the earth from what has been done on the earth. That could still imply the earth is left and the humans on it to face a future judgment. Also we see from other Scriptures like Revelation that it is not instant but takes a few years to accomplish the destruction of the works on the earth.

Amil taking one Scripture and basing their view and then just twisting and denying the whole of God's word is what pre-mill are accused of doing. So why do amil do it and it is OK, but wrong for pre-mill? Peter did not say the earth was gone, especially in the translation you used. The earth was void of much of how it looks today, but humans will still live here for another 6 years. The battle of Armageddon is at least 42 months after the heavens are dissolved and all the stars are now on earth as angels in their angel form. That is what Peter says compared to John in Revelation 6; Scripture interpreting Scripture. Not some dogmatic view of one or two verses, that all other Scriptures have to conform to. Peter has to be flexible, not like someone taking a single verse and making all other Scriptures conform to it. Nor does taking Revelation 20 as literal make us change 2 Peter 3 to say what it does not say. That is why no translation seems to agree on the condition of the earth. Peter did not say the earth was gone the same way the heavens were gone, nor did Peter give us as much detail like John does, so using Peter as your dogmatic point and denying All John has to say, seems like nonsense.
 
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Timtofly

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Can you please elaborate on your understanding of Matthew 25:31-46?

How exactly do entire nations feed the hungry, give something to drink to the thirsty and visit those in prison, etc.?

How exactly can entire nations inherit "eternal life" (Matt 25:46) in the kingdom prepared for them from the foundation of the world (Matt 25:34)?

How exactly can entire nations be sentenced to "eternal punishment" (Matt 25:46) in "everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matt 25:41)?
So no one is left? How does judgment based on works apply at all? You destroy the earth, and then have to institute a works judgment that cannot exist without an earth to reward people with. According to you, only the church remains, and the church is not turned into sheep who get to live eternal lives based on works. You are missing a step. That step is having an earth to live on. Show me one verse that says the sheep are resurrected directly into the NE.
 
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keras

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Jesus Himself indicated that it will occur when He comes with His angels (Matthew 25:31-46). Your lack of being able to recognize that Matthew 25:31-46 is speaking of the same judgment as Revelation 20:11-15 is your downfall.

There is only one day of judgment and the entire world (all people everywhere, everyone) will be judged on that day.
The nations are entities that can be good or bad, corporately. We see it in Zechariah 14:17-19
Aid to the third world nations, is an example of good nations.

Jesus will separate them at His Return, but the final Judgement of every individual must await the GWT - AFTER the Millennium.
Your downfall is the untenable idea that there is no future Millennium.
Why would any unbeliever survive that? They would not. Believers, on the other hand, will all be changed and have immortal bodies at that point (1 Cor 15:50-54). Death will be swallowed up in victory and God will wipe the tears from all of our faces (1 Cor 15:54, Rev 21:4 - per Isaiah 25:8) and the new heavens and new earth will be ushered in when He returns. Scripture simply does not allow for any mortal survivors once the wrath of the Lamb comes down upon the world.
You have missed and misunderstood what will happen on the Day of the Lord's fiery wrath. Isaiah 26:20-21 says we must take shelter and Isaiah 2:19-21 and Revelation 6:15-17 say people will hide in caves, etc and they will survive. Many will die, Isaiah 66:15-16, but the world will recover and the rest of the prophesies in Revelation will take place as Written.
Your mixed up and mankind totally wiped out ideas, are wrong.

The New earth and Death conquered, does not happen until after the final Judgment; Revelation 21:1-7
 
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eclipsenow

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Better than having a spiritualized view of Revelation, that leaves people clueless about God's plans for our future.
That's just it - we know the shape of his plans for our future and should rejoice in them!
But turning revelation into an end-times-table makes the majority of the book UTTERLY IRRELEVANT to the vast majority of Christians throughout history? On what grounds do you reject this?

On what grounds do you reject this?
When you can bother answer the last dozen or so questions I've asked you that you've just dodged, maybe I'll get back to you on this!
 
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eclipsenow

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The nations are entities that can be good or bad, corporately. We see it in Zechariah 14:17-19 Aid to the third world nations, is an example of good nations.
Oh right? You're attacking the gospel that says every individual must trust in the Lord are you?

Jesus will separate them at His Return, but the final Judgement of every individual must await the GWT - AFTER the Millennium.
I'm glad that you think there actually will be a final Return and Judgement day.
I'm sad that you have just stubbornly decided to outright reject that is EXACTLY what all these other New Testament verses say happens when Jesus returns!

All those commentaries pretty much said the same thing - expect that Millenenarian commentary that somehow spread "The Return" across the Millennium and GWT. That was a dodge. What the Millenarian commentary DIDN'T do was trying to equate these gospel Judgement Day verses with Rev 6 as you do. That's like saying "The end of the world isn't really the end of the world - you can hide in a cave." :doh::doh::doh:

Your downfall is the untenable idea that there is no future Millennium.
Your downfall is that it would take a gazillion years for you to recognise a metaphor, or a parable, or a piece of creative metaphorical narrative.

You have missed and misunderstood what will happen on the Day of the Lord's fiery wrath.
No - you have. That's the end of the world buddy!
Ellicot's Commentary says of Rev 6:15
"Thus in the final day of judgment the revealing of the spiritual order of all life will confound men whose minds have been blinded by their entire absorption in world-splendours and world-powers."
and of Rev 6:17
“the day of Christ” in Philippians 1:6; Philippians 1:10, and the Apostle’s wish that the Philippians might be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ; and St. John’s desire that Christians should not “be ashamed before Him at His coming,” and “may have boldness in the day of judgment” (1John 2:28; 1John 4:17). “Who is able to stand?” The question is answered in the next chapter. They shall stand who are sealed with the seal of the living God."
It's the end of the world! But this vision of the end of the world is interrupted to answer the question in the last verse: "Who can withstand it?" Then see the Batman logo jump out of your TV and read "Meanwhile, in Gotham..." and we're in another vision that answers that question. Who can withstand? Only those God has saved and marked out.​

Interestingly AGAIN even the futurist / Millenarian commentary by Jamieson-Fausset-Brown disagrees with you and asserts Rev 6 is the LAST DAY!

17. Literally, "the day, the great (day)," which can only mean the last great day. After the Lord has exhausted all His ordinary judgments, the sword, famine, pestilence, and wild beasts, and still sinners are impenitent, the great day of the Lord itself' shall come. Mt 24:6-29 plainly forms a perfect parallelism to the six seals
Revelation 6:17 Commentaries: for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"


Isaiah 26:20-21 says we must take shelter and Isaiah 2:19-21 and Revelation 6:15-17 say people will hide in caves, etc and they will survive.

Be careful how you read the Old Testament on the Day of the Lord. Here's a basic introduction into Biblical Theology and the Day of the Lord - how the Old and New Testament fit together around eschatology. Basically, the Old Testament seems to blend all the events of the day of the Lord into one day. It's God's Judgement and Salvation, all rolled in together.

However, in the New Testament Jesus and the Apostles do something very interesting with that one Day of the Lord idea. They split it into two events, in what theologians call "eschatological tension" - the now but not yet of the time we live in. Let me explain. In my basic diploma of Biblical Theology, a certain Sydney Anglican theologian described how the Day of the Lord is like canoeing down a river. You see a giant tree around the bend as you drift through the Old Testament, but when you get closer and into the New Testament what looked like one tree actually splits into clarity as two trees. God judges and saves through the cross, but in a sense his ultimate Judgement and Salvation are still coming! It's that sort of idea Jesus is referring to when he says those who ignore his teachings are already judging themselves - even though Judgement Day hasn't happened yet. It's that sort of idea when Jesus raised Lazarus and said "I am the resurrection and the life" standing before them right then! The great and terrible day of the Lord's judgement and salvation had arrived, incarnate in a person! But the good news? Repent and believe!

This also fits with Peter preaching to the crowd at Pentecost. He quotes a very "end of the world" sounding passage from Joel but explains it is partly fulfilled in what is happening before the crowd at Pentecost (nearly 2000 years ago!)
Acts 2
14 Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice and addressed the crowd: “Fellow Jews and all of you who live in Jerusalem, let me explain this to you; listen carefully to what I say. 15 These people are not drunk, as you suppose. It’s only nine in the morning! 16 No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:

17 “‘In the last days, God says,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your young men will see visions,
your old men will dream dreams.
18 Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days,
and they will prophesy.
19 I will show wonders in the heavens above
and signs on the earth below,
blood and fire and billows of smoke.
20 The sun will be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood
before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord.
21 And everyone who calls
on the name of the Lord will be saved.’​

The cross is the Day of the Lord - as the sun was darkened. But there's a sense in which 19 to 21 is still to happen, and Revelation picks up on that language as well for the very Last Day. The Day of the Lord in the New Testament is like a bride getting married but still to go on the honeymoon, like a binding legal construction contract that has been signed but the bulldozers haven't moved in yet, like how Ephesians 2 says we are seated in heaven already - but we only really get to see that in the coming age. The Day of the Lord promised in the Old Testament has already arrived - but in eschatological tension. In the now, but not yet. We are saved, but not enjoying the reality of that yet. It is in this Amil sense of eschatological tension that I can fully agree with the title of this your post and thread - "The day of the Lord is at hand for all nations." It really is at hand - and has been for 2000 years! Hurry back Lord Jesus!
 
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Timtofly

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That's just it - we know the shape of his plans for our future and should rejoice in them!
But turning revelation into an end-times-table makes the majority of the book UTTERLY IRRELEVANT to the vast majority of Christians throughout history? On what grounds do you reject this?


When you can bother answer the last dozen or so questions I've asked you that you've just dodged, maybe I'll get back to you on this!
It would be on the grounds all past humanity is already dead. How can any one today change history and how the dead past viewed God's Word?
 
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Spiritual Jew

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So no one is left? How does judgment based on works apply at all? You destroy the earth, and then have to institute a works judgment that cannot exist without an earth to reward people with. According to you, only the church remains, and the church is not turned into sheep who get to live eternal lives based on works. You are missing a step. That step is having an earth to live on. Show me one verse that says the sheep are resurrected directly into the NE.
Why don't you break Matthew 25:31-46 down to show me exactly how you interpret it. Less opinions and more scripture. Why should I believe anything you say unless you show the scripture itself and how exactly you interpret it? Who do you believe the sheep represent? Who do you believe the goats represent?
 
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Spiritual Jew

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The nations are entities that can be good or bad, corporately. We see it in Zechariah 14:17-19
Aid to the third world nations, is an example of good nations.

Jesus will separate them at His Return, but the final Judgement of every individual must await the GWT - AFTER the Millennium.
Your downfall is the untenable idea that there is no future Millennium.
Why are you not willing to address the questions I ask?

Please tell me exactly how it's possible for entire nations to inherit "eternal life" (Matt 25:46) in the kingdom prepared for them from the foundation of the world. Can you do that?

Please tell me exactly why entire nations would be cast into "everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matt 25:41) to suffer "eternal punishment" (Matt 25:46). Can you do that?

The idea that Matthew 25:31-46 is a judgment of nations makes no sense whatsoever. Individuals inherit eternal life, not nations. Individuals are cast into "everlasting fire", not nations. You can see that in Revelation 20:15.
 
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keras

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Why are you not willing to address the questions I ask?

Please tell me exactly how it's possible for entire nations to inherit "eternal life" (Matt 25:46) in the kingdom prepared for them from the foundation of the world. Can you do that?

Please tell me exactly why entire nations would be cast into "everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matt 25:41) to suffer "eternal punishment" (Matt 25:46). Can you do that?

The idea that Matthew 25:31-46 is a judgment of nations makes no sense whatsoever. Individuals inherit eternal life, not nations. Individuals are cast into "everlasting fire", not nations. You can see that in Revelation 20:15.
Nations; mean people groups, or tribes, or clans. They do tend to stick to one belief or religion.
Matthew 25:31-33 is undoubtedly talking about people groups, not individuals.
The final Judgement of Individuals is by God Himself, much later. Another proof of the Millennium after Jesus Returns.

Why are you not willing to face facts like these?
 
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eclipsenow

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It would be on the grounds all past humanity is already dead. How can any one today change history and how the dead past viewed God's Word?
I think you've missed the point.
The point is John wouldn't spend all that time writing Revelation 1 to be about his generation and to his generation - and then effectively say "You guys think you've got problems with the Romans. Well suck it up princesses because wait till you see what happens in 2000 years!" That's just LUDICRIOUS!

John indicates 4 times in Chapter 1 of Revelation that 'these things' he's discussing will start soon - and that the whole book is probably about the Roman persecution of the church.
1. "to show his servants what must soon take place"
2. " blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it" - how could the early church obey something that was addressed to Christians 2000 years later?
3. "because the time is near."
4. he SHARES in their tribulation! - John was already in jail because of Rome.
Basically, if Revelation is some sort of timetable that only the last generation will understand:-
  • what good has it been for the church for the last 2000 years?
  • Why can't anyone agree on this end-times timetable? ;-) Why is it so vague when Jesus and his death and resurrection and the epistles about him are mostly fairly clear?
  • Compare that to Amillennials that see it as a book that neatly describes the Roman persecution of the church, Roman temptation to Christians of money wealth and empire, and Roman appeal to trusting in State security rather than God's eternal security. In this case, Revelation has been a relevant warning and encouragement to all Christians in all societies for the last 2000 years. In fact, Christians I know of who have been persecuted in Muslim countries read it this way and laugh at the idea John is talking about a future suffering. They think it silly that John would write to his suffering generation and basically say "You think you've got it bad - wait till you see what happens in 2000 years!"
  • The return of Christ at the end isn't a timetable of events but gospel vision and encouragement - it's a sermon reminding us to keep going no matter what happens. The end of the book even describes the return of Jesus in judgement from 3 different points of view - repeating the same one magnificent event from 3 camera-views - none of which work in chronological order.
  • Phd in Ancient History, theologian and retired Sydney Anglican Bishop Dr Paul Barnett explains further in "Apocalypse Now and Then". https://www.amazon.com/Apocalypse-now-then-reading-Revelation/dp/0949108421
  • I recommend learning Amil theology as it will free modern Christians from the endless fretting over which credit card or computer chip might be the 'mark of the beast' and being diverted by endless speculation over geopolitical matters and how they fit into a 'Revelation timetable'. Amil will help rather focus them on living for Christ each day and being more compassionate in their local affairs and realistic in their politics.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Nations; mean people groups, or tribes, or clans. They do tend to stick to one belief or religion.
Matthew 25:31-33 is undoubtedly talking about people groups, not individuals.
The final Judgement of Individuals is by God Himself, much later. Another proof of the Millennium after Jesus Returns.

Why are you not willing to face facts like these?
I don't see any facts in your post. The fact of the matter is that scripture repeatedly teaches that inheriting eternal life is for INDIVIDUALS, not entire nations or people groups, and being cast into "everlasting fire" for "eternal punishment" is also for INDIVIDUALS (individuals whose names are not written in the book of life - Rev 20:15). The idea that entire nations will either receive eternal life or eternal punishment is completely unbiblical and, apparently, everyone except you knows that.

For your corporate salvation belief to be true, every person in any given nation would have to either be saved or lost. That is obviously nonsense.
 
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keras

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I don't see any facts in your post. The fact of the matter is that scripture repeatedly teaches that inheriting eternal life is for INDIVIDUALS, not entire nations or people groups, and being cast into "everlasting fire" for "eternal punishment" is also for INDIVIDUALS (individuals whose names are not written in the book of life - Rev 20:15). The idea that entire nations will either receive eternal life or eternal punishment is completely unbiblical and, apparently, everyone except you knows that.

For your corporate salvation belief to be true, every person in any given nation would have to either be saved or lost. That is obviously nonsense.
Of course, when Jesus is saying: They will go away to Eternal punishment, but the righteous to Eternal life. Matthew 25:46, He is referring to individuals.

Your attempts to discredit me just sound nasty.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Amil taking one Scripture and basing their view and then just twisting and denying the whole of God's word is what pre-mill are accused of doing. So why do amil do it and it is OK, but wrong for pre-mill? Peter did not say the earth was gone, especially in the translation you used. The earth was void of much of how it looks today, but humans will still live here for another 6 years. The battle of Armageddon is at least 42 months after the heavens are dissolved and all the stars are now on earth as angels in their angel form. That is what Peter says compared to John in Revelation 6; Scripture interpreting Scripture. Not some dogmatic view of one or two verses, that all other Scriptures have to conform to. Peter has to be flexible, not like someone taking a single verse and making all other Scriptures conform to it. Nor does taking Revelation 20 as literal make us change 2 Peter 3 to say what it does not say. That is why no translation seems to agree on the condition of the earth. Peter did not say the earth was gone the same way the heavens were gone, nor did Peter give us as much detail like John does, so using Peter as your dogmatic point and denying All John has to say, seems like nonsense.

I find this rich coming from a Premil who only has one proof-text. The reality is there are many climactic passages that forbid Premil and support Amil. Repeated Scripture locates the replacement of the current heavens and earth with the new heavens and earth and incorruption at the second coming. Job 14:12-14, Isaiah 13:9-11, Isaiah 34:1-4, 8, Isaiah 65:17-21, Isaiah 66:22-24, Joel 2:3, Joel 2:10-11, Malachi 4:1-3, Matthew 24:29-30, Matthew 24:35-44, Mark 13:24-26, Luke 21:25-27, Romans 8:18-23, 1 Corinthians 15:23-24, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:10-13, Hebrews 1:10-12, Revelation 6:13-17, Revelation 16:15-20, Revelation 19:11-16 and Revelation 20:11-15 shows us that this occurs at the second coming. This is indeed the end of time, the end of corruption, the end of the wicked, the end of sin, the end of death, the end for the devil. It is the beginning of eternity. It is the beginning of perfection. It is the beginning of incorruption. It is the beginning of a new arrangement.
 
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Timtofly

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Why don't you break Matthew 25:31-46 down to show me exactly how you interpret it. Less opinions and more scripture. Why should I believe anything you say unless you show the scripture itself and how exactly you interpret it? Who do you believe the sheep represent? Who do you believe the goats represent?
The only thing to break down is the Second Coming. The Trumpets in Revelation is the separation of the sheep and goats. The first sealing of the 144k Jews is the firstfruits of the sheep. That is all we know. They are living humans, though, not dead ones. Are the Trumpets and the way they are portrayed in Revelation supposed to mean something? The Trumpets sounding are about a third of life being destroyed. A third of angels follow Satan is historical. That the 5th Trumpet opens the pit and let them loose goes along with the one third theme. Do Jews themselves make up a third of humanity? If you were to divide humanity between the lost, the saved, and the Jews would humanity be evenly broken into 3 equal parts? If currently 25% of the world is the church and the church was taken out, what 3 equal groups would be left in the other 3 quarters? If you removed all the Jews would there still be half the world left? I do not think that Jesus specifies in Matthew what part of the discussion is the church. Nor do I think that the 25% in Revelation 6 is only the church.

Why is the Bible anywhere not specific about the church? I mean Paul says some will be alive, that is true, but not specific. Can some in the church fall out in apostasy so much, that none are left? Can Apostasy determine one's salvation? The other direction is a last minute revival and billions turn to Christ. Not just a social feel good carnel enlightenment. Full repentance in sackcloth and ashes. The rapture would skew any attempt to be just 25% death rate, and the rapture is not viewed as death by most here anyways. Paul calls it changed, not death and resurrection in midair. So the challenge is the rapture skews the numbers either way, and just leaves us with a lower population count to split up into a quarter, and a third and then what ever the Thunders take away and leave behind. The 4th seal is death, and if that relates to one taken and one left that is a 50% ratio. If there is a revival that would make sense, because more would be taken away in Christ. But the one taken and the other left could be about the Thunders and the wheat being separated from the tares. That would be your 50% ratio. That still leaves a quarter of humanity left. If there is revival, then very few will be left. If Apostasy leaves many behind, then billions could be left for Satan to have for 42 months. But I think the Trumpets are splitting the Jews into two groups, some Jews will be left as goats depending on their works. If you agree with Jesus that it is works, even though not part of a Law, that is just how God deals with the Jews. They manifest the works of God on earth and yet not part of the church. Many in the OT more than likely kept the Law, but like the rich young ruler rejected the Holy Spirit and were never sent to Abraham's bosom. So while the Law was an outward show of things, God still had a church that was of the heart, and not the Law.

Many Jews may die in the 4th Seal. Many Jews will leave in the rapture. Yet Jesus is addressing the Jews in Matthew 24 and 25 and they will be split between some will be sheep, and some will be goats. It is definitely not between lost and saved, nor is it between Gentile and Jews. Jesus was not addressing the church, nor Gentiles in Matthew 24 and 25. Many Jews will die, maybe 50%. Some will be raptured, perhaps a quarter of the remaining. Perhaps only a third will be sheep, or perhaps a third will be goats clarified in Revelation with the Trumpets, showing us the goats are a third of the Jews who will die and enter eternal damnation, Death. When the Thunders start, only Gentiles and the Nations will be left to harvest. The wheat and the tares, and we still cannot know how many are still left alive.

I know you did not want commentary. There is only two things in those verses. The Second Coming. Jews as sheep and goats being separated has nothing whatsoever to do with the church, because the reason is two fold. God chooses them, and neither the goats nor sheep were aware of why they were even chosen. They did not do "to the least of these" intentionally to be chosen. If some today try to preach that Gospel it would not work. For one the Gospel to preach is one of Atonement because of the Cross, and there is no plan b Gospel. Jews will just be doing what they naturally do. This separation is not based on the Atonement or that would be what Christ used to qualify the separation. Only works were used and not even intentional works based on an end days Gospel.

Now some may disagree and say teaching them would be a good thing. No plan b is a good thing. This is not a plan b scenario. Application of doing good to the least of these should just be the human moral decency of current times we live in. At least in modern democratic leaning nations, where people for the most part are allowed to govern themselves. In a dictatorship people still have to have human decency to even survive at least those who have not sold out to the leader and become part of the oppression.

I do not see how any can apply Matthew 24 and 25 to the church. Neither to the Gentiles. The only connection is the Second Coming and God and the Lamb are coming to earth and they will deal directly with the Jews alive and living on the earth. Paul says the church leaves at the Second Coming. He did not say the Jews or Israel. He was talking about those in Christ, not the Jews chosen by God as God's earthly Kingdom people. Jews exist in most every nation. Jews are the bridesmaids. Now a Jew can be a Christian and part of the church, but they are then in Paradise at the Second Coming, not part of the sheep and goat judgment. But either a third of those living (after the SecondComing) are Jews, or a third of the living Jews are goats. The other point is the rapture will effect the overall population count, not reduce the world's population by 25%. The 4th Seal is the tribulation of those days, and covers Matthew 24:4-29. A war that includes famine, a plague, and wild animals, will be a tribulation like nothing else up to that point. Especially when 25% of the population dies.
 
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Timtofly

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I think you've missed the point.
The point is John wouldn't spend all that time writing Revelation 1 to be about his generation and to his generation - and then effectively say "You guys think you've got problems with the Romans. Well suck it up princesses because wait till you see what happens in 2000 years!" That's just LUDICRIOUS!

John indicates 4 times in Chapter 1 of Revelation that 'these things' he's discussing will start soon - and that the whole book is probably about the Roman persecution of the church.
1. "to show his servants what must soon take place"
2. " blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it" - how could the early church obey something that was addressed to Christians 2000 years later?
3. "because the time is near."
4. he SHARES in their tribulation! - John was already in jail because of Rome.
Basically, if Revelation is some sort of timetable that only the last generation will understand:-
  • what good has it been for the church for the last 2000 years?
  • Why can't anyone agree on this end-times timetable? ;-) Why is it so vague when Jesus and his death and resurrection and the epistles about him are mostly fairly clear?
  • Compare that to Amillennials that see it as a book that neatly describes the Roman persecution of the church, Roman temptation to Christians of money wealth and empire, and Roman appeal to trusting in State security rather than God's eternal security. In this case, Revelation has been a relevant warning and encouragement to all Christians in all societies for the last 2000 years. In fact, Christians I know of who have been persecuted in Muslim countries read it this way and laugh at the idea John is talking about a future suffering. They think it silly that John would write to his suffering generation and basically say "You think you've got it bad - wait till you see what happens in 2000 years!"
  • The return of Christ at the end isn't a timetable of events but gospel vision and encouragement - it's a sermon reminding us to keep going no matter what happens. The end of the book even describes the return of Jesus in judgement from 3 different points of view - repeating the same one magnificent event from 3 camera-views - none of which work in chronological order.
  • Phd in Ancient History, theologian and retired Sydney Anglican Bishop Dr Paul Barnett explains further in "Apocalypse Now and Then". https://www.amazon.com/Apocalypse-now-then-reading-Revelation/dp/0949108421
  • I recommend learning Amil theology as it will free modern Christians from the endless fretting over which credit card or computer chip might be the 'mark of the beast' and being diverted by endless speculation over geopolitical matters and how they fit into a 'Revelation timetable'. Amil will help rather focus them on living for Christ each day and being more compassionate in their local affairs and realistic in their politics.
I think you are missing the point, that there would be no church at all after the Second Coming. The whole Bible is pointless, after the Second Coming.

Revelation was a comfort to all phases of the last 1900+ years, because all knew the Second Coming could happen very soon, because no one was told it would be after 2020. It was a hidden plan, and nothing has changed, except now the plan is not hidden as one looks back on the last 1990 years, and realize Adam disobeyed God 5990 years ago. Now sin will soon be over, but it was not over in the 1st century.
 
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Timtofly

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I find this rich coming from a Premil who only has one proof-text. The reality is there are many climactic passages that forbid Premil and support Amil. Repeated Scripture locates the replacement of the current heavens and earth with the new heavens and earth and incorruption at the second coming. Job 14:12-14, Isaiah 13:9-11, Isaiah 34:1-4, 8, Isaiah 65:17-21, Isaiah 66:22-24, Joel 2:3, Joel 2:10-11, Malachi 4:1-3, Matthew 24:29-30, Matthew 24:35-44, Mark 13:24-26, Luke 21:25-27, Romans 8:18-23, 1 Corinthians 15:23-24, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:10-13, Hebrews 1:10-12, Revelation 6:13-17, Revelation 16:15-20, Revelation 19:11-16 and Revelation 20:11-15 shows us that this occurs at the second coming. This is indeed the end of time, the end of corruption, the end of the wicked, the end of sin, the end of death, the end for the devil. It is the beginning of eternity. It is the beginning of perfection. It is the beginning of incorruption. It is the beginning of a new arrangement.
What the Second Coming will bring an end to is amil theology.

The Day of the Lord will end in a new heavens and earth, and a totally different reality. Your definition is 24 hours, mine is 1000 years. If you are correct, I will not need any patience. If I am correct, you will need to be patient and longsuffering like God is. That is the message of 2 Peter 3, whether you like that message or not.
 
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eclipsenow

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I think you are missing the point, that there would be no church at all after the Second Coming. The whole Bible is pointless, after the Second Coming.

Revelation was a comfort to all phases of the last 1900+ years, because all knew the Second Coming could happen very soon, because no one was told it would be after 2020. It was a hidden plan, and nothing has changed, except now the plan is not hidden as one looks back on the last 1990 years, and realize Adam disobeyed God 5990 years ago. Now sin will soon be over, but it was not over in the 1st century.
Oh poppycock!
The book of Revelation was either ABOUT John's generation and written to comfort them or it wasn't. If it wasn't, John is outright lying to them in Chapter 1. You're making John and God into liars by your insistence that Revelation was 'pretending' to be to them and about comforting them, when it was secretly - like some kind of sick Dan Brown Da Vinci Code - about us. When are you futurists going to admit you've got ego problems and just want some super-sleuth secret bible code to be all about YOU - that only YOU can decode? You and Keras are identical in this regard.

But the vastly better news is that Revelation isn't some boring, arbitrary end-times-table to try and decode. It's actually inspired by God, written by John to his generation so that ALL generations of suffering Christians can learn from it and be inspired to love and serve God faithfully, no matter when they leave. There's simply no 'prophetic end-times-tables' to decode. It's a sermon, not a timetable. It's a word of encouragement, not a arbitrary future-history list. It promises what the gospel promises - that on one mysterious day God will return and either save or judge everyone, permanently. As is consistent with all the other books in the New Testament.
 
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Timtofly

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Oh poppycock!
The book of Revelation was either ABOUT John's generation and written to comfort them or it wasn't. If it wasn't, John is outright lying to them in Chapter 1. You're making John and God into liars by your insistence that Revelation was 'pretending' to be to them and about comforting them, when it was secretly - like some kind of sick Dan Brown Da Vinci Code - about us. When are you futurists going to admit you've got ego problems and just want some super-sleuth secret bible code to be all about YOU - that only YOU can decode? You and Keras are identical in this regard.

But the vastly better news is that Revelation isn't some boring, arbitrary end-times-table to try and decode. It's actually inspired by God, written by John to his generation so that ALL generations of suffering Christians can learn from it and be inspired to love and serve God faithfully, no matter when they leave. There's simply no 'prophetic end-times-tables' to decode. It's a sermon, not a timetable. It's a word of encouragement, not a arbitrary future-history list. It promises what the gospel promises - that on one mysterious day God will return and either save or judge everyone, permanently. As is consistent with all the other books in the New Testament.
It seems the one with an ego issue is the one judging posters in some pontificating manner.

Does it help accusing people falsely of being fiction writers?

In your avoidance of facts, was the Second Coming in the 1st century, and we are now awaiting the Third Coming?

You are not proving your point by missing the simple fact Revelation is about the Second Coming. It is also a fact that since the 1st century all of the church is still comforted, generation after generation, via the fact the Second Coming is still future. No one has been purposely excluded from John's Revelation and the church triumphant has been ongoing for 1990 years.

Do you not, yourself, exclude the neglected middle, the last 1900+ years?

Claiming God is all about evolution and billions of years of creation, is Satan's attractive deception of your own "Dan Brown" fiction.
 
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Yes it does.

Peter does not say the NHNE starts, he says we look forward to it even if the heavens themselves disappear and the earth is laid bare. When God comes on the throne in the 6th Seal that is exactly what happens except there are still mountains to hide under,

I think the language there shows how ridiculous it is to try and hide from God. Remember Job? He lamented that he couldn't hide from God. Remember Jonah in the whale? God was with him in the pit. You can't hide from God - what are you reducing God to - a surface level nuke? :doh:
Fallout-76-How-to-Launch-a-Nuke.jpg


I mean, if the entire world's biodiversity were melted down after this event - what are the survivors - your play actors playing out the rest of your literalistic Revelation drama - even eating? :doh:

No, but as every other verse in the New testament says - when the Lord returns, it's the end of the world. It all comes down to getting your guidance from the clearer bits of scripture first, then the more metaphorical bits as a secondary guide. If any book in the bible has metaphors it's the one that makes Jesus out to look like this!

Screen Shot 2020-08-15 at 6.10.28 pm.png


As an Amil friend posted recently... it all happens when God returns!

Repeated Scripture locates the replacement of the current heavens and earth with the new heavens and earth and incorruption at the second coming. Job 14:12-14, Isaiah 13:9-11, Isaiah 34:1-4, 8, Isaiah 65:17-21, Isaiah 66:22-24, Joel 2:3, Joel 2:10-11, Malachi 4:1-3, Matthew 24:29-30, Matthew 24:35-44, Mark 13:24-26, Luke 21:25-27, Romans 8:18-23, 1 Corinthians 15:23-24, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:10-13, Hebrews 1:10-12, Revelation 6:13-17, Revelation 16:15-20, Revelation 19:11-16 and Revelation 20:11-15 shows us that this occurs at the second coming. This is indeed the end of time, the end of corruption, the end of the wicked, the end of sin, the end of death, the end for the devil. It is the beginning of eternity. It is the beginning of perfection. It is the beginning of incorruption. It is the beginning of a new arrangement.​

The 6th seal is God returning. So why is there so much more of Revelation 'after' this event? Because it's a sermon, not a timetable, that at this point reminded us of our gospel hope. How does this sermon work? What's the outline?

As Bishop Paul Barnett explains, the 1000 years we are in (long period of time between Jesus resurrection and return) have the following cycles described all in parallel - along side each other - not to be read sequentially like some sort of future timeline.
HUMAN HISTORY: THE 1000 YEARS:-
Seven seals depicting TYRANNY (then the end and back to the beginning to describe)...
Seven trumpets depicting CHAOS in nature (then back to the beginning to describe)...
Seven signs depicting PERSECUTION (then back to the beginning to describe)...
Seven plagues depicting DESTRUCTION.
These episodes are concurrent, not consecutive.
https://www.amazon.com/Apocalypse-Now-Then-Revelation-Commentaries/dp/1875861416
 
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