Who Doesn't Go To Hell?

Aussie Pete

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That's what we like to tell ourselves.
We think they are unbelievers because they didn't join our church. In reality they don't want to be culturally "Christian". Accepting the gospel but rejecting the institution of the church and the social construct of "Christianity". I seem to remember the survey results confirming this. Vast numbers of believers outside the church. Which really bothered me when I first heard about it. But I think I understand it better now.
The big misunderstanding is what constitutes the church. It's all those who are born again, regardless of denominational affiliation. I meet quite a few believers who do not attend an institution. They reject both the traditional and the mega church model. Often it's because of perceived poor treatment. Often, they have a point. It's tragic because they need fellowship. I see a time coming when church as we know know it will be very different and back to the way it was in the early days of Christianity. Many denominations are shrivelling up. Mega churches are not the answer. Francis Chan is worth checking out on that front.
 
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Aussie Pete

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Salvation in Christianity - Wikipedia

Christian tradition has explained sin as a fundamental aspect of human existence, brought about by original sin—also called ancestral sin,[d] the fall of man stemming from Adam's rebellion in Eden by eating the forbidden fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.[7] Paul espouses it in Romans 5:12–19, and Augustine of Hippo popularized it in the West, developing it into a notion of "hereditary sin," arguing that God holds all the descendants of Adam and Eve accountable for Adam's sin of rebellion, and as such all people deserve God's wrath and condemnation—apart from any actual sins they personally commit.[8]

I think of it this way -
the children of nobility are nobility and have a share of the inheritance
the children of slaves are slaves
rather than 'holding all the decendants of Adam and Eve accountable"
I think it was more that they sold themselves from the nobility of God's family into the slavery of sin. Signed away the deed
by the act of rebellion in the Garden
God isn't out to dmn everyone
He just wants us back

Christ's sacrifice is a demonstration of how much he wants us back.

Christ's crucifixion is a demonstration of how much we need to go back and what we have in us if we don't. Because apart from God, there really isn't any difference between my nature and the nature of the ones calling for the death of a good man. We love good men. When they are convenient. But we tend to get rid of inconvenient things anytime we have the power to, sometimes in very ugly ways. And God tends to be VERY inconvenient to human nature.

Christ's resurrection is a demonstration that everything Christ said about both the human nature and his own divine nature and the difference between the two was true. God doesn't resurrect imposters, but does offer life and has it in his power to grant for those that repent and want to follow the Son, the door is now and forever more open. Been open for 2000 years. And apart from that door, there is no hope and never will be of being something different, of being what we were actually made to be. Something pleasing to God. Something for which we can say 'Thank God you made me into This through your Son'.

Reading Genesis again recently I was amused by something.

After eating the fruit and hiding from God, God asks both the man and then the woman a question.

God to man: "Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?”
Man: Woman's fault (btw, the one you put here, so indirectly, your fault lol)
God to woman: "What is this you have done?"
Woman: Snake's fault
God to Snake: "Why did you... oh never mind. I know you and I know you know you and I know you know me. And this story isn't about you anyway, it's about them."

He never asks the Snake any questions :)

And sometimes I wonder if the man had just answered "Yes" and accepted responsibility and asked for mercy and not tried to pass judgement onto the woman who then tried to pass it onto the Serpent like a game of Hot Potato if the chapter might not have had a different, happier ending.
The problem of man is not just that he sins. He is dead. That's why Jesus came to give us life. Adam missed out on eternal life because he chose the forbidden fruit. Lord Jesus came to reverse the blight that Adam inflicted on the human race. Sin is just a part of the equation.
 
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Petros2015

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Aren't both the unredeemed resurrected and given new bodies before judgement?
I don't expect the bodies of either to look 'human' at that time
I'm pretty sure we'll know who was a child of who and who belongs on the right and the left.
"Humanity" is a temporary thing, I feel, kind of like a larva caterpillar that cocoons itself in death and awakens as a beautiful butterfly.

upload_2020-12-21_19-35-4.png


Or, not.

upload_2020-12-21_19-35-38.png


At any rate, I know what I want to wake as, and I know where it belongs.
 
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Saint Steven

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Are you a universalist?
Not in the sense of a Unitarian Universalism. There is Christian Universalism. The current preferred term is Universal Restorationism.
 
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Saint Steven

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But maybe more imposing is the mere fact that God is just. Whatever the reason(s) for why we got this way (and the Bible tells us what they are) ...
Indeed. We were set up in the garden. No one asked for this. Is that what you call justice?
 
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Saint Steven

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I'm curious why you say, "restored relationship" concerning the Gospel. Do you believe we were once with God, and fell or something? You sound SDA, I think it is (I don't study cults much), who teach that as children of God we were once eternally with God, and we will return to that status.
No, I'm not SDA.

Adam walked with God in the garden. That relationship was broken when sin was introduced to the equation.
 
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Saint Steven

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And sometimes I wonder if the man had just answered "Yes" and accepted responsibility and asked for mercy and not tried to pass judgement onto the woman who then tried to pass it onto the Serpent like a game of Hot Potato if the chapter might not have had a different, happier ending.
I wonder what would have happened if Eve ate but Adam refused.
 
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Saint Steven

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Try to understand God's predicament.

America's judges often thwart the system by refusing to hear perfectly good cases; no matter those cases' strengths or their merits. But God is a person of integrity; He cannot be party to miscarriages of justice.

God is impartial, non partisan, unbiased, non prejudiced, practices no favoritism; and didn't get in His position via a political appointment. Plus God never allows his personal feelings to interfere with the duties of His office. He's fair across the board with everyone; friend and foe alike.

Although God feels deep sympathy for folks whose very lives are in grave danger of the sum of all fears, He must send them there anyway because it's the right thing to do; regardless of how badly He feels about it, i.e. God can be trusted to be objective rather than subjective; but then again, His integrity, and His objectivity, are what makes God so dangerous.
_
So, God painted himself into a corner? There he sits wringing his hands asking how he ended up in this predicament? "My, oh my. What ever will I do now"? As if he didn't see this coming. I don't think so.

And God is unbiased, you say? How could that be? And God feels sympathy for those he will send to hell? As if his hand was forced. Thus freeing him from responsibility for the kind of hell you claim he created?
 
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Saint Steven

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The problem of man is not just that he sins. He is dead. That's why Jesus came to give us life. Adam missed out on eternal life because he chose the forbidden fruit. Lord Jesus came to reverse the blight that Adam inflicted on the human race. Sin is just a part of the equation.
These verses sum it up nicely.

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
 
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Mark Quayle

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No, I'm not SDA.

Adam walked with God in the garden. That relationship was broken when sin was introduced to the equation.
Ok. That's a relief!

Do you think after this life we will be restored to the same sort of relationship as Adam had with God? Or did God have something better in mind when he made mankind?
 
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Indeed. We were set up in the garden. No one asked for this. Is that what you call justice?
You think something unexpected happened in the Garden? God had to invoke plan B?

Nobody asked to be born. Nobody asked to be born with a sinful nature. God didn't consult anyone nor ask permission to do what he does. He OWNS us.

Just? Yes indeed it is just. Do you honestly believe we deserve something? Do ants and worms?
 
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Saint Steven

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Do you think after this life we will be restored to the same sort of relationship as Adam had with God? Or did God have something better in mind when he made mankind?
Something like that. But Adam was the product of God's original creation. Not sure we could go back to that level of "innocence". I see it as most people see heaven, but everyone will be there eventually. Including the fallen angels. All will be restored. No one will have loved ones stuck in a forever burning hell. And those that we consider to have been the worst human beings will be marvelously restored and reconciled to those they have harmed. We will have all the time we need to make this happen.
 
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Mark Quayle

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Something like that. But Adam was the product of God's original creation. Not sure we could go back to that level of "innocence". I see it as most people see heaven, but everyone will be there eventually. Including the fallen angels. All will be restored. No one will have loved ones stuck in a forever burning hell. And those that we consider to have been the worst human beings will be marvelously restored and reconciled to those they have harmed. We will have all the time we need to make this happen.
My point is that that level of innocence is not the plan God had in mind for his particular people --the Church, the Elect.
 
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Saint Steven

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You think something unexpected happened in the Garden? God had to invoke plan B?

Nobody asked to be born. Nobody asked to be born with a sinful nature. God didn't consult anyone nor ask permission to do what he does. He OWNS us.

Just? Yes indeed it is just. Do you honestly believe we deserve something? Do ants and worms?
No. What happened in the garden was Plan A. Humankind needed to fall for the plan of redemption to play out. Which will not dead-end in hell, but rather come full circle.

God created us with deep longings and desires. We are precious in his sight. So, yes, we are very deserving. Jesus said the thief (enemy) comes to kill, steal and destroy. But he came that we might have life to the full.

To claim that we don't deserve anything is to agree with the thief. (enemy)
 
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Saint Steven

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My point is that that level of innocence is not the plan God had in mind for his particular people --the Church, the Elect.
I thought we were discussing the afterlife.

Saint Steven said:
Something like that. But Adam was the product of God's original creation. Not sure we could go back to that level of "innocence". I see it as most people see heaven, but everyone will be there eventually. Including the fallen angels. All will be restored. No one will have loved ones stuck in a forever burning hell. And those that we consider to have been the worst human beings will be marvelously restored and reconciled to those they have harmed. We will have all the time we need to make this happen.
 
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Mark Quayle

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I thought we were discussing the afterlife.

Saint Steven said:
Something like that. But Adam was the product of God's original creation. Not sure we could go back to that level of "innocence". I see it as most people see heaven, but everyone will be there eventually. Including the fallen angels. All will be restored. No one will have loved ones stuck in a forever burning hell. And those that we consider to have been the worst human beings will be marvelously restored and reconciled to those they have harmed. We will have all the time we need to make this happen.

Did I say something that made you think I'm not discussing the afterlife?
 
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Mark Quayle

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No. What happened in the garden was Plan A. Humankind needed to fall for the plan of redemption to play out. Which will not dead-end in hell, but rather come full circle.

God created us with deep longings and desires. We are precious in his sight. So, yes, we are very deserving. Jesus said the thief (enemy) comes to kill, steal and destroy. But he came that we might have life to the full.

To claim that we don't deserve anything is to agree with the thief. (enemy)
God owes nobody anything.

But besides that, we have all sinned, and all of our hearts are at enmity with him unless regenerated. Read Romans 9 again and see what precious in his sight means, as opposed to chosen for one purpose or for another purpose. God has that right. He owes us nothing.
 
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Saint Steven

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God owes nobody anything.

But besides that, we have all sinned, and all of our hearts are at enmity with him unless regenerated. Read Romans 9 again and see what precious in his sight means, as opposed to chosen for one purpose or for another purpose. God has that right. He owes us nothing.
I used to believe that. But it raises some questions. And it may be an aspect of "total depravity" that you are speaking forth. But if you are taking that past our inability to save ourselves, I think you have gone too far with it. It doesn't mean that we are worthless to God.

At face value "God owes nobody anything" is true. But what can we EXPECT from him based on his character?

Matthew 12:20
A bruised reed he will not break, and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out, till he has brought justice through to victory.
 
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Saint Steven

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Did I say something that made you think I'm not discussing the afterlife?
Yes. You made a statement about the Church (capital C) and the Elect. (those God chose to not go to "hell"?) Which means everyone else was elected/predestined for eternal conscious torment. (what you call justice - because "God owes nobody anything")

Mark Quayle said:
My point is that that level of innocence is not the plan God had in mind for his particular people --the Church, the Elect.
 
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Aussie Pete

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Ok. That's a relief!

Do you think after this life we will be restored to the same sort of relationship as Adam had with God? Or did God have something better in mind when he made mankind?
Adam's relationship with God was incomplete because Adam himself was incomplete. That's why the Tree of Life was in the middle of the Garden as well as the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. If Adam had eaten from the Tree of Life, history would have been entirely different.

Christians have something Adam never had. We are alive in Christ. If we will depend on Lord Jesus to be our life, we will have all the resources of God mad available to us through Him. If we choose to live out of our own cleverness, talents, wit and self will, we will miss God's best.
 
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