Lets talk about the New Testament commandments (No Sabbath Talk Please)...

DamianWarS · Dec 21, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
Actually, Jesus quoted this truth in Matthew 4:4 found in the Old Testament Scriptures given to Israelite nation. But even if this was an exclusively New Covenant truth alone (Which is it not), the point here is that Jesus was commanding how man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God. This is a command for mankind. Meaning, it is for us. To deny this is to deny what the verse says. If it was not an imperative for mankind to not live by bread alone but by every word of God, then Jesus would have said, “While this is not always the case, it is helpful or good if man lives not by bread alone, but by every word of God.” But this is not what Jesus said. So Matthew 4:4 is a command that is spoken in a non-direct way.

For did Jesus command the wind and the waves?

This dialogue is beginning to feel agenda-driven only about highlighting Mat 4:4 and not really about New Testament commandments in general. I don't dispute the focus of Mat 4:4 but you seem to claim there is a set of indirect Jesus-commandments that are explicitly for all man, yet all you can bring up is Mat 4:4. ok, I get it, Mat 4:4 makes the list, what else do ya got? if you only want to discuss Mat 4:4 you probably should have been more transparent about that.

GDL · Dec 21, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
Again, this is just ignoring basic reality of how things work in life and what the Scriptures plainly teach.

Sorry, but you're not making the case, especially by pointing to what the Scriptures plainly teach.

Firstly, I've acknowledged human emotions. So approaching this like I'm stripping them out of reality isn't helpful.

Next, by repeating the quote of "Jesus wept," you're really not building a case for much of anything. I can see just as much a case for other factors causing Him to cry, than just a love for someone who died while knowing He could bring him back. Also, just because others there concluded He wept because He loved him, does not mean that's what was taking place. Then, the word translated as "loved" in John 11:36, is not the same word we're dealing with in 1Cor13 or the John and 1John verses we've been discussing.

Next, when you state something & say it doesn't make sense, it just means it doesn't make sense to you.

Next, I get the impression that you deal mainly with the English translations. So you know, I don't. I'm trained & practiced in Greek exegesis and I know that English translations can be quite wanting. For instance:

- NKJ 1 Corinthians 13:4 Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up;

- Note how the NKJ says "suffers long" instead of "love is patient." This is because all these words being applied to love in this verse are verbs. They are telling us what love does - how love acts.

- You highlighted "love is kind." Yes, many translations so translate it. But now we're left with inserting what we think "kind" means and includes. And you choose to insert affection into its meaning. I don't. Also, how are you defining "affection"? Do I have to feel something to show kindness to someone? Do I have to have a fondness for someone to be kind to them or to do something kind for them? I don't. I can simply see something as being right to do and do it and this can be a kindness apart from being affectionate.

- Then we can deal with the Greek word being translated as "kind." The lexical definitions for this word range from: be kind, be gentle, behave kindly, act kindly, be good and kind, be loving, be merciful, be useful/helpful. If I go back to see how this word is derived from other words, it comes through a chain that says "to furnish what is needed" and is defined as "to show oneself useful," "to act benevolently, i.e. be kind."

So, love is being described with words of action. To be useful or helpful to someone does not require affection or feelings. Love for God is keeping His commandments and this not being burdensome is primarily action, mindset and attitude.

As for affection being needed to not act arrogantly/conceitedly/pridefully, I really don't see this argument at all.

I gave you the entire list of words describing love in 1Cor13 and asked you to make your case for affection being a priority or primary in love. So far I disagree with your thinking you've made it.

Bible Highlighter · Dec 21, 2020

GDL said:
Sorry, but you're not making the case, especially by pointing to what the Scriptures plainly teach.

Firstly, I've acknowledged human emotions. So approaching this like I'm stripping them out of reality isn't helpful.

Next, by repeating the quote of "Jesus wept," you're really not building a case for much of anything. I can see just as much a case for other factors causing Him to cry, than just a love for someone who died while knowing He could bring him back. Also, just because others there concluded He wept because He loved him, does not mean that's what was taking place. Then, the word translated as "loved" in John 11:36, is not the same word we're dealing with in 1Cor13 or the John and 1John verses we've been discussing.

Next, when you state something & say it doesn't make sense, it just means it doesn't make sense to you.

Next, I get the impression that you deal mainly with the English translations. So you know, I don't. I'm trained & practiced in Greek exegesis and I know that English translations can be quite wanting. For instance:

- NKJ 1 Corinthians 13:4 Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up;

- Note how the NKJ says "suffers long" instead of "love is patient." This is because all these words being applied to love in this verse are verbs. They are telling us what love does - how love acts.

- You highlighted "love is kind." Yes, many translations so translate it. But now we're left with inserting what we think "kind" means and includes. And you choose to insert affection into its meaning. I don't. Also, how are you defining "affection"? Do I have to feel something to show kindness to someone? Do I have to have a fondness for someone to be kind to them or to do something kind for them? I don't. I can simply see something as being right to do and do it and this can be a kindness apart from being affectionate.

- Then we can deal with the Greek word being translated as "kind." The lexical definitions for this word range from: be kind, be gentle, behave kindly, act kindly, be good and kind, be loving, be merciful, be useful/helpful. If I go back to see how this word is derived from other words, it comes through a chain that says "to furnish what is needed" and is defined as "to show oneself useful," "to act benevolently, i.e. be kind."

So, love is being described with words of action. To be useful or helpful to someone does not require affection or feelings. Love for God is keeping His commandments and this not being burdensome is primarily action, mindset and attitude.

As for affection being needed to not act arrogantly/conceitedly/pridefully, I really don't see this argument at all.

I gave you the entire list of words describing love in 1Cor13 and asked you to make your case for affection being a priority or primary in love. So far I disagree with your thinking you've made it.

You are saying there is emotion and yet you arguing against it. You are acting very contradictory, brother. You simply are not seeing the obvious here. It's like you are arguing how rain is not wet or something. Very odd. Most likely it has to do with C.S. Lewis' book that promotes the 4 types of love that has been absorbed into Christianity as a teaching over what God's Word and reality says.

In fact, while there is some sliver of truth to what he says, I am not buying entirely into C.S. Lewi's teachings. He wrote about fictional stories involving witchcraft (Which is a sin that God's Word condemns). It's an ignorance of reality. Common sense teaches affection leads to loving actions. This is simple basic observation. To say so otherwise is to approve that we can act like a robot or a Vulcan and say we are loving. Jesus says out of the abundance of the heart does the mouth speak. The heart is the seat of the emotions.

A person can hate another person and pretend to do loving and good things for them as a part of a secret plan to bring them down and or to hurt them. So just because one is loving in their actions does not mean one is truly loving them.

So I think it is best we agree to disagree in love and respect and move on in regards to this point.

May God's love shine upon you today (even if we disagree strongly on the basics of reality).

Bible Highlighter · Dec 21, 2020

DamianWarS said:
This dialogue is beginning to feel agenda-driven only about highlighting Mat 4:4 and not really about New Testament commandments in general. I don't dispute the focus of Mat 4:4 but you seem to claim there is a set of indirect Jesus-commandments that are explicitly for all man, yet all you can bring up is Mat 4:4. ok, I get it, Mat 4:4 makes the list, what else do ya got? if you only want to discuss Mat 4:4 you probably should have been more transparent about that.

No agenda at all, my friend. Just calling it as I see it. Man shall not live by bread alone, etc.; Seeing we are are part of mankind, this command applies to us. But if Jesus were to command the wind and the waves, such a command would not apply to us. The words “shall not” for man implies an imperative for man. So figuring out whether or not this is a command (or not) is very simple.

As for other Non-Explicit Commands:

#1. Whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of judgment, (Matthew 5:22) (Translation: Do not be angry with your brother without a cause).

#2. No flesh shall glory in his presence. He that glories, let him give glory unto the Lord (1 Corinthians 1:29) (1 Corinthians 1:31) (Translation: You shall not glorify yourself in His presence, but you who glories, let yourself give glory unto the Lord).

#3. All men should honor the Son, even as they honor the Father (John 5:23) (Translation: You must honor the Son (even as you honor the Father)).

#4. If anyone does not work, neither should he eat (2 Thessalonians 3:10) (Translation: If you do not work, neither should you eat).

#5. Now the end of the commandment is love out of a pure heart, a good conscience, and a sincere faith (1 Timothy 1:5) (Translation: Love out of a pure heart, a good conscience, and sincere faith).

#6. The servant of the Lord must not be quarrelsome; but they are to be gentle unto all men, able to teach, and patient. They are to instruct those who oppose themselves; So that God will grant them an opportunity to repent and acknowledge the truth;” (2 Timothy 2:24-25) (Translation: You must not be quarrelsome, but you are to be gentle unto all men, able to teach, and patient. You are to instruct those who oppose themselves).

#7. He that comes to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him (Hebrews 11:6) (Translation: You who come to God must believe that He is [i.e. that He exists], and that He is a rewarder of them that dilgently seek Him).

BobRyan · Dec 21, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
And discuss....

There are two mentioned in Matt 22,
There are a lot more than two mentioned in Matt 19 almost the same as those mentioned in Romans 13
And James 2 mentions a few - as does Romans 7.

but Eph 6:1-2 reminds us that the "first commandment with a promise" in that still valid unit of ten - is "Honor your father and mother"

1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is keeping the Commandments of God"
Rev 14:12 "the saints keep the Commandments of God and their faith in Jesus"
1 John 5:2-3 "this is the Love of God that we Keep his commandments"

Trying very hard not to quote them here.

And of course just like in the OT - the New Covenant has the "Law of God written on heart and mind" Heb 12:6-12 just as in Jer 31:31-34

BobRyan · Dec 21, 2020

Carl Emerson said:
Are we talking about uniquely NT commands?

That seems to be what the OP is saying.

I think there is supposed to be around 1150 NT commands

Someone said they think it is less than 1150 and I stand corrected... it is only 1050
1,050 New Testament Commands | Christian Assemblies International

klutedavid · Dec 21, 2020

BobRyan said:
There are two mentioned in Matt 22,
There are a lot more than two mentioned in Matt 19 almost the same as those mentioned in Romans 13
And James 2 mentions a few - as does Romans 7.

but Eph 6:1-2 reminds us that the "first commandment with a promise" in that still valid unit of ten - is "Honor your father and mother"

Better to quote those two verses from Ephesians 6.

1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is keeping the Commandments of God"

So which 'commandments' is Paul referring to?

This I think is what this thread is addressing; what are the commandments.

For example, do not blaspheme the Holy Spirit is one powerful commandment that Jesus gave.

You were also commanded to believe in Jesus Christ and that commandment is not listed in the ten commandments.

Your attempt to pigeonhole the New Testament commandments into the ten words failed.

klutedavid · Dec 21, 2020

[STAFF EDITED DELETED QUOTE] There are many commandments given in the New Testament that are not in the ten commandments.

klutedavid · Dec 21, 2020

BobRyan said:
I think there is supposed to be around 1150 NT commands

Not sure where you retrieved that number from but the New Testament commandments. Are no where near 1150 commandments.

GDL · Dec 21, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
You are saying there is emotion and yet you arguing against it.

It doesn't look like you know what words like "primary" mean. That post is a lot of typing to avoid proving how affection is contained in any of the descriptions of action pertaining to agape in 1Cor13 & to avoid other things re: Scripture presented in response to your case.

OK, happy to move on, but not a fan of agree to disagree arrangements. Scripture informs reality not vice-versa.

GDL · Dec 21, 2020

klutedavid said:
Not sure where you retrieved that number from but the New Testament commandments. Are no where near 1150 commandments.

Actually there are 1000+ imperative commands in the NT and a few hundred less if we strip out those in narratives. As others have apparently done, some years back I compiled all of them, have read through them all many times, have analyzed many in context, have taught several of them in a series, and have continued to add various forms of grammar to the list that are also commands in Greek. I think my word doc list & notes is now at about 96 pages.

klutedavid · Dec 21, 2020

GDL said:
Actually there are 1000+ imperative commands in the NT and a few hundred less if we strip out those in narratives. As others have apparently done, some years back I compiled all of them, have read through them all many times, have analyzed many in context, have taught several of them in a series, and have continued to add various forms of grammar to the list that are also commands in Greek. I think my word doc list & notes is now at about 96 pages.

I have seen lists near 100 commandments but not 1150 commandments.

You will need to link the list so I can examine it.

GDL · Dec 21, 2020

klutedavid said:
You will need to link the list so I can examine it.

My work is not online. This link to other work was supplied on another thread. I haven't reviewed the work. Bible Highlighter knows more about it than I:

https://www.abc.net.au/reslib/201407/r1308729_17984331.pdf

GDL · Dec 21, 2020

[STAFF EDITED DELETED QUOTE]

It's not my work & I have no opinion about it yet.

The work I've done was simply to go through all of the NC Scriptures to identify all commands within them. With some of the commands therein, we automatically must take in whatever OC law is still applicable today, because they point us back to it.

Look at Rom13 for example. There looks to be 8 of 14 verses with NC commands in them and at quick glance I could break out more than one command in at least 1 of those verses. And this does not include all the OC commands in verse 9 where Paul after commanding to love one another in verse 8 says love neighbor (the 2nd great commandment and his basis for his command in verse 8) summarizes the OC commands listed in verse 9 as well as any other [existing] command.

Bottom line, there's no way to study NC commands without ending up back in the OC for elaboration and more commands.

GDL · Dec 21, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
nice to meet someone who studies Gods' Word for themself.

Don't know if I could think of any greater compliment. Thank You (and anybody else working to learn The Truth).

klutedavid · Dec 21, 2020

GDL said:
My work is not online. This link to other work was supplied on another thread. I haven't reviewed the work. Bible Highlighter knows more about it than I:

https://www.abc.net.au/reslib/201407/r1308729_17984331.pdf

There is a lot of repetition if you read through that list carefully.

Bible Highlighter · Dec 21, 2020

@GDL

I read the following article below (at the following link), and I was like... no way. Really? Is this what is happening in the world of Christianity?

Is Joy Unemotional, and Is It More Spiritual Than Happiness? - Blog - Eternal Perspective Ministries

When the heart of affection is gone, the heart is cold and it is no better than a robot. For a robot can mimic the acts of doing loving things, but it will never truly know love. We are not vulcans or robots. Robots cannot have agape love. Only humans can. Paul says,

My love (agape) be with you all in Christ Jesus. Amen.”
(1 Corinthians 16:24).

If agape love is emotionless, and it is purely loving deeds alone, then how could Paul wish his agape love with the Corinthian brethren in Christ Jesus?

Love involves our emotions and guides our actions. So Philo, C.S. Lewis, and Darwin were wrong about how you can act in love without emotion.

Kettriken · Dec 22, 2020

misput said:
We could indeed if we were trying to test Gods tolerance for sin.

It's very simple, we don't work and follow commands to be saved, we try to work and follow commands because we are saved. It was the same for believers in the Old Testament but just like today, most did not comprehend but regardless, God knows who truly believes.
Resting from our works does not mean we cease from them, it means we do not trust in them for salvation. For example if you want to worship on Saturday, by all means do so, just do not trust in it for salvation. I personally believe we should worship Him every day but I do not trust in that for salvation. I do not trust in anything I do or don't do, only in what He has done for me.

I see I erred a little much on the side of not fully explaining myself. I wasn't not trying to advocate fasting from works on the Sabbath, merely from the idea that we are somehow working our way to salvation, as you said.

This is another of those things like worshiping God. We do it every day, ideally, but once a week we set out a time apart to focus on it more fully, priming the pump as it were for the other days. For those of us who have a tendency towards religiosity or a false notion of working towards salvation, it would be helpful the have that reminder and practice once a week to help carry into the rest of the time.

Anyway, your post was an interesting extrapolation of the sabbath principle but I suppose I'm getting a bit off topic for the thread. Thanks for giving me something to ponder

GDL · Dec 22, 2020

klutedavid said:
There is a lot of repetition if you read through that list carefully

Thanks for the input.

As I recall, there are repetitions of commands or similar commands stated differently in different parts of the NC. One word that quickly comes to mind is "walk." Do a search on "walk" and see how many times there is a command to walk in one respect or another (e.g. just from memory: walk in the light, walk as children of light, walk in spirit, walk in love, walk as wise, don't walk as unwise, etc...). All a bit different, but a lot of commands to walk.

I think the point is that there are many more than 100 commands.

Last night when I responded in post #74 re: Romans, I did take a quick look at my studies. A quick glance at the Romans section showed something like 64 verses with commands including a few with forms of wording I'm also looking at as directives. On the one hand, 10+ of these verses are things like "greet _____" in Rom15. "Greet" is stated in an imperative form, so it comes up as just that, a command, but it obviously is not something being commanded of us. On the other hand, as I said, within some or several of these 64 verses, there are actually multiple commands that could be broken out as such. Point being, Romans alone makes a big dent in the 100 commands figure.

GDL · Dec 22, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
If agape love is emotionless, and it is purely loving deeds alone, then how could Paul wish his agape love with the Corinthian brethren in Christ Jesus?

Love involves our emotions and guides our actions. So Philo, C.S. Lewis, and Darwin were wrong about how you can act in love without emotion.

Once again, I never said emotion is not a part of love.

Not having read what you're talking about of Philo et.al., assuming they said what you're saying, I agree with them that we can act in love without emotion. I also agree with you [in part] that we can also act in love with emotion, or affection as you were saying. I see agape, carrying both obedience & affection, but I see the bulk of instruction being in the obedience to God & how we act aspects.

Keeping with 1Cor, take for instance 2:9: Has God prepared [glorious] things for those who just have affection for Him but disobey & reject Him & don't grow to function in Biblical Love towards Him & neighbor and fellow Christians as commanded?

Take the commands to love God, neighbor, and one another: Are we being commanded to have affection for all, or to function/act in love as it is described and commanded by God towards all?

The other case I can make here, is, since we are commanded to love, our acting in love as commanded is also our being obedient to God. Love for God and neighbor and one another is obedience to God (keeping/guarding/protecting His commandments just as 1John5 says).

Lets talk about the New Testament commandments (No Sabbath Talk Please)...

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