Difference between churches of Christ

1watchman · Dec 11, 2020

Nova2216 said:
(Acts 22:16) defines how to "call on the name of the Lord".

1. Arise
2. Be Baptized (in water) (Acts 8:5,12,13,26-40 ; 16:30-34)
3. Wash Away Your Sins (Acts 2:38,47) (Rom. 6:3-6, 16-18)
4. Calling on the Lord

Did Paul come to water immersion thinking his sins had "ALREADY" been forgiven?

OR

Did Paul come to water immersion thinking he "NEEDED" to have his sins forgiven?

In (1Kings 18) we see how Elijah called on the name of the Lord.

Notice all Elijah had to do in this chapter before the Lord accepted the sacrifice.

1Ki 18:30 And Elijah said unto all the people, Come near unto me. And all the people came near unto him. And he repaired the altar of the LORD that was broken down. 31 And Elijah took twelve stones, according to the number of the tribes of the sons of Jacob, unto whom the word of the LORD came, saying, Israel shall be thy name: 32 And with the stones he built an altar in the name of the LORD: and he made a trench about the altar, as great as would contain two measures of seed. 33 And he put the wood in order, and cut the bullock in pieces, and laid him on the wood, and said, Fill four barrels with water, and pour it on the burnt sacrifice, and on the wood. 34 And he said, Do it the second time. And they did it the second time. And he said, Do it the third time. And they did it the third time. 35 And the water ran round about the altar; and he filled the trench also with water. 36 And it came to pass at the time of the offering of the evening sacrifice, that Elijah the prophet came near, and said, LORD God of Abraham, Isaac, and of Israel, let it be known this day that thou art God in Israel, and that I am thy servant, and that I have done all these things at thy word. 37 Hear me, O LORD, hear me, that this people may know that thou art the LORD God, and that thou hast turned their heart back again. 38 Then the fire of the LORD fell, and consumed the burnt sacrifice, and the wood, and the stones, and the dust, and licked up the water that was in the trench. 39 And when all the people saw it, they fell on their faces: and they said, The LORD, he is the God; the LORD, he is the God.

How did Elijah "CALL ON THE LORD" ?

Thanks

You should see that Elijah was an Israelite, and we who are Christians see their religion was set aside when they crucified their Messiah. In the New Testament we are told that salvation is by faith in Jesus Christ alone and NOT by works. Baptism is only 'taking a stand with the name of the Lord against the unbelieving world', as I have stated already. Study the Bible from a reliable version and not the modern writings to please those who want simple ideas, rather than God's Word to man as in the reliable KJV (not modern versions by the religionists). People can believe what they want, but we need to seek the mind of God. Pray about this, friend!

kepp · Dec 11, 2020

1watchman said:
Proper rendering of Acts 22:16 is "...and have thy sins washed away calling on the Name of the Lord" ---see a sound concordance and sound Bible version. It is by faith, not works.

From KJV it seems (to me) to say the same thing: "And now why tarriest thou? Arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord."

Did you include the entire verse in the post I quoted? I'm not trying to be argumentative...just want to know where you're coming from.

seeking.IAM · Dec 11, 2020

Sometimes I think what we think we know about what we must do to be saved puts God in a box, as if saying x, y, & z have to be done precisely in this order and in this way or it doesn't count. I think God will not be limited. God will save whom God will save. Yes, let's do all those things, but let us not deceive ourselves from the possibility that there might be a different path if God so chooses. He is a God of grace, mercy, & love afterall who knows far better than we know.

1watchman · Dec 11, 2020

kepp said:
From KJV it seems (to me) to say the same thing: "And now why tarriest thou? Arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord."

Did you include the entire verse in the post I quoted? I'm not trying to be argumentative...just want to know where you're coming from.

I would not use the New KJV Version; it is also faulty! In fact I use the Scofield KJV Study Bible that puts all compromised verses correct according to studies by scholars. This book is holding to original writings with intent by comparing with language meanings. I find it as the best of all versions! Readers can believe whatever appeals to them, but I value true meanings as consistent with "all the counsel of God" and "rightly dividing the Word of Truth" as God says. I guess it all comes down to whatever one chooses to believe about what our God is saying to us ---being consistent with the whole of Scripture. One can obtain this Scofield KJV Bible from Bibletruthpublishers.com. Keep looking up!

Nova2216 · Dec 12, 2020

1watchman said:
You should see that Elijah was an Israelite, and we who are Christians see their religion was set aside when they crucified their Messiah. In the New Testament we are told that salvation is by faith in Jesus Christ alone and NOT by works. Baptism is only 'taking a stand with the name of the Lord against the unbelieving world', as I have stated already. Study the Bible from a reliable version and not the modern writings to please those who want simple ideas, rather than God's Word to man as in the reliable KJV (not modern versions by the religionists). People can believe what they want, but we need to seek the mind of God. Pray about this, friend!

Scriptures please.

Isa 41:21 ¶ Produce your cause, saith the LORD; bring forth your strong reasons,...

Naaman thought but thought wrong. (2Kings 5)

Thanks

Nova2216 · Dec 12, 2020

1watchman said:
Proper rendering of Acts 22:16 is "...and have thy sins washed away calling on the Name of the Lord" ---see a sound concordance and sound Bible version. It is by faith, not works.

According to (Heb. 11) faith includes works.

TRUE / FALSE

Belief is a work according to (Jn 6:28,29).

Joh 6:28 ¶ Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Thanks

1watchman · Dec 12, 2020

Nova2216 said:
According to (Heb. 11) faith includes works.

TRUE / FALSE

Belief is a work according to (Jn 6:28,29).

Joh 6:28 ¶ Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Thanks

Friend, do not take Words out of context in the Bible! Hebrew 11 is all quotes about OT saints before God; and it only speaks of God's ordinances for Israel (speaking in typology). John 6 is speaking of works of faithfulness by NT saints (today) which is us ---those redeemed ("born again" John 3) today who are of Jesus Christ, and ought to do works of faithfulness too ---NOT for salvation, but to honor God (though the primary work of FAITH is essential to obey). Please avoid scrambling the Scripture, friend, less we be offending our Creator.

Nova2216 · Dec 12, 2020

1watchman said:
Friend, do not take Words out of context in the Bible! Hebrew 11 is all quotes about OT saints before God; and it only speaks of God's ordinances for Israel (speaking in typology). John 6 is speaking of works of faithfulness by NT saints (today) which is us ---those redeemed ("born again" John 3) today who are of Jesus Christ, and ought to do works of faithfulness too ---NOT for salvation, but to honor God (though the primary work of FAITH is essential to obey). Please avoid scrambling the Scripture, friend, less we be offending our Creator.

Friend, what does this mean?

Mr 2:5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee.

That's what Hebrews is teaching us.

Faith without works is dead. (James 2)

A dead faith cannot save anyone.

Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Nova2216 · Dec 12, 2020

1watchman said:
Friend, do not take Words out of context in the Bible! Hebrew 11 is all quotes about OT saints before God; and it only speaks of God's ordinances for Israel (speaking in typology). John 6 is speaking of works of faithfulness by NT saints (today) which is us ---those redeemed ("born again" John 3) today who are of Jesus Christ, and ought to do works of faithfulness too ---NOT for salvation, but to honor God (though the primary work of FAITH is essential to obey). Please avoid scrambling the Scripture, friend, less we be offending our Creator.

Must one confess Jesus is the Son of God to be saved? (Rom. 10:9,10)

Isn't confession something men do?

1watchman · Dec 12, 2020

Nova2216 said:
Must one confess Jesus is the Son of God to be saved? (Rom. 10:9,10)

Isn't confession something men do?

"Confession" in the Bible refers to 'taking ownership' and acknowledging it forth (as Romans 10:9-10 as of Jesus, the Christ and our Savior). We MUST receive Him into our heart to have ANY acceptance with our God (taking ownership as our personal hope) ---see Epistle 1 Jn. 5: 10-12 for clarity, friend.

1watchman · Dec 12, 2020

Nova2216 said:
Friend, what does this mean?

Mr 2:5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee. [JESUS KNEW HIS HEART AND GAVE HIM THE BLESSING]

That's what Hebrews is teaching us.

Faith without works is dead. (James 2) [IT BEING NOT REAL]

A dead faith cannot save anyone. [THAT DEPENDS ON WHAT ONE MEANS BY 'DEAD FAITH', FOR GOD IS SAYING: 'CLAIM OF FAITH WITHOUT EVIDENCE OF REALITY IS AS DEAD --NOT BEING TRUE]

Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. [THE TRUTH IS IN THE EVIDENCE, NOT IN A CLAIM]

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. [AGAIN: THE CLAIM IS ONLY VALID IF SHOWN BY EVIDENCE TO BE REAL]

19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? [BEING NOT REAL].

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? [ABRAHAM GAVE EVIDENCE OF REAL FAITH BY HIS ACTION]

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? [AGAIN, SPEAKING OF EVIDENCE SHOWS THE REALITY]

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. [YES! ]

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

. [GOOD AND GODLY WORKS AS ACTIONS IS SOME EVIDENCE TO REAL FAITH ---NOT THAT WORKS ALONE ACCOMPLISHES JUSTIFICATION.] - 1 Watchman

hedrick · Dec 12, 2020

Nova2216 said:
According to (Heb. 11) faith includes works.

TRUE / FALSE

Belief is a work according to (Jn 6:28,29).

Joh 6:28 ¶ Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Thanks

This whole discussion is truly weird for this forum, since this forum is for a liberal Reformed church. I'm probably in the best position to respond, since my church and my own faith are pretty much consistent with the UCC's.

This is not a very sensible understanding of this passage. The passage is certainly not claiming that faith is a work, in the sense in which work is used in Protestant theology. Rather, it is saying that our faith is God's work.

If you look at the previous verses, someone asks "what do we need to do to do the works of God?" It is quite typical in John that people misunderstand Jesus. This is an example. The person is looking for a list of work they have to do. "Works of God" has an ambiguity, as to whether it's works done by God or works done by us according to God's will. The questioner means works done by us.

The Hermeneia commentary notes: "The expression “do the works of God” appears in Num 8:11* LXX. There it denotes the work of the Levites, who are obligated to fulfill the liturgical tasks set them by God. In the passage in John, it probably depicts the Jewish-legal mentality of the hearers: they are asking what they should do in order to do the works intended by God."

But the response is that God's work is faith. This is not an attempt to classify faith as a work. At least not in the sense the questioner meant. Indeed it's a rejection of their mentality. In my opinion it's actually turning the question on its head, changing the meaning from works we do for God to something done by God. That is, I think John means that our faith is a result of God's actions through Christ. (A more traditional Calvinist would go further, and see it as saying that God creates faith in us, but I'm going to leave that issue open.) Not all commentators agree with this, but they all agree that Jesus was rejecting the questioner's concept that we need to do "works."

Nova2216 · Dec 13, 2020

1watchman said:
"Confession" in the Bible refers to 'taking ownership' and acknowledging it forth (as Romans 10:9-10 as of Jesus, the Christ and our Savior). We MUST receive Him into our heart to have ANY acceptance with our God (taking ownership as our personal hope) ---see Epistle 1 Jn. 5: 10-12 for clarity, friend.

We see the confession of the Ethiopian eunuch in (Acts 8:26-40)

Ac 8:36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? 37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

This confession which he "SAID" was something he had to do before he could be saved.

TRUE or FALSE

Belief and confession are two things which must be done to be saved according to (Rom. 10:9,10).

Would you agree?

Ro 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Thanks

Nova2216 · Dec 13, 2020

1watchman said:
. [GOOD AND GODLY WORKS AS ACTIONS IS SOME EVIDENCE TO REAL FAITH ---NOT THAT WORKS ALONE ACCOMPLISHES JUSTIFICATION.] - 1 Watchman

i hope you are not charging me with saying works "ALONE" saves anyone b/c I do not believe any one thing saves anybody. (on the part of man)

1watchman · Dec 13, 2020

Nova2216 said:
We see the confession of the Ethiopian eunuch in (Acts 8:26-40)

Ac 8:36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? 37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

This confession which he "SAID" was something he had to do before he could be saved.
TRUE or FALSE
[IT IS TRUE THAT HE MUST BE 'BORN AGAIN' TO BE SAVED; AND HIS CONFESSION WAS ACCEPTED AS REAL; SUCH CONFESSION SHOULD BE FOLLOWED BY BAPTISM. THE BAPTISM IS OBEDIENCE, BUT NOT ESSENTIAL TO SALVATION --ANYMORE THAN A MAN ON HIS DEATH BED CONFESSES CHRIST WITHOUT BAPTISM, WHICH WOULD BE REAL. ONLY GOD KNOWS IF IT IS REAL ].

Belief and confession are two things which must be done to be saved according to (Rom. 10:9,10). Would you agree? [CONFESSION IS ONLY NEEDED TO BE RECOGNIZED BY A CHRISTIAN, AND ONLY GOD KNOWS IF IT WAS REAL]

Ro 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. [THE FIRST PART IS TRUE, AND MEN CAN ONLY KNOW BY SOME REAL EVIDENCE; AND THE LAST IS ONLY ACCEPTABLE IF IT SHOWS IN ONE'S LIFE AND WALK].

Thanks

I HOPE THIS REPLY HELPS. --1WATCHMAN

The Liturgist · Dec 21, 2020

seeking.IAM said:
Sometimes I think what we think we know about what we must do to be saved puts God in a box, as if saying x, y, & z have to be done precisely in this order and in this way or it doesn't count. I think God will not be limited. God will save whom God will save. Yes, let's do all those things, but let us not deceive ourselves from the possibility that there might be a different path if God so chooses. He is a God of grace, mercy, & love afterall who knows far better than we know.

Indeed. “I will have mercy on who I will have mercy”

Also, fun fact: the tilted footrest on the Eastern Orthodox depiction of the Cross points in the direction of the Good Thief, so as to evoke his salvation through an extraordinary act of grace in response to his sincere repentance and fidelitas in extremis.

1watchman · Dec 21, 2020

Nova2216 said:
i hope you are not charging me with saying works "ALONE" saves anyone b/c I do not believe any one thing saves anybody. (on the part of man)

No, I was only adding to what I said before. Receiving the Lord Jesus into our heart IS SALVATION, and then Godly works is evidence to it (John 14; Romans 8; 1 Jn. 5:10-12). Keep looking up!

Nova2216 · Dec 21, 2020

1watchman said:
You should see that Elijah was an Israelite, and we who are Christians see their religion was set aside when they crucified their Messiah. In the New Testament we are told that salvation is by faith in Jesus Christ alone and NOT by works. Baptism is only 'taking a stand with the name of the Lord against the unbelieving world', as I have stated already. Study the Bible from a reliable version and not the modern writings to please those who want simple ideas, rather than God's Word to man as in the reliable KJV (not modern versions by the religionists). People can believe what they want, but we need to seek the mind of God. Pray about this, friend!

...Baptism doth also now save us... (1Peter 3:20,21)

TRUE / FALSE

Believe + Baptism = Saved (Mark 16:16)

TRUE / FALSE

Baptism puts one INTO CHRIST (Rom. 6:3-6,16-18) (Gal. 3:27) (Acts 2:38,47 ; 8:5,12,13,26-40 ; 22:16).

TRUE / FALSE

1watchman · Dec 21, 2020

Wrong! You are mis-interpreting verses to try to prove something, but you don't seem open to learn, so I will leave you to your ideas. If you ever wish to learn the Bible, I can help you sometime to see what our God has shown us. Keep looking up, at least, friend. Let us go in peace.

actionsub · Jan 27, 2022

seeking.IAM said:
There were 4 streams of Christianity that fed into the UCC in 1957. I wonder how you would characterize them all?

The German Reformed Church in the United States + The Evangelicals Church = the Evangelical and Reformed Church. (1934 merger)

The Congregational Church + Christian Church = The Congregational Christian Church (1931 merger).

The Congregational Christian Church + The Evangelical & Reformed Church = The United Church of Christ (1957 merger)

That said, the "Christian Church" that merged with the Congregational Church was itself a prototype of the Restoration Movement that spawned the Disciples of Christ. James O'Kelly, Abner Jones, and Elias Smith in upper New England had become dissatisfied with denominationalism and formed small, localized restoration movements. Barton Stone, who with Alexander Campbell are credited with the larger Restoration Movement, had formed his own group that had been influenced by O'Kelly's views. These groups all merged into the Christian Connection in 1804. However, when Stone and Campbell joined forces in 1832, many from the O'Kelly and Smith/Jones movements chose not to participate, but continued using the name "Christian Church". This was the faction that would merge with the Congregationalists a century later.

Difference between churches of Christ

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