Can anyone be saved through living righteously?

Albion

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Maybe Jesus appears in some way to people who can't hear the gospel, i mean you really can limit God? i say there will be people saved somehow who never heard the gospel preached.

It's not a matter of what we would do if we were God. Or what seems right or sensible to our Earthly minds and according to our Earthly social standards. Or even what we "feel," in our hearts is "fair."

The Christian religion accepts the Bible as the word of God, as divine revelation. We cannot just throw it aside and substitute any mortal standards instead.

But if we do that when it comes to this matter we are discussing now, all the rest of what has been given to us in Scripture is equally disposable when we don't care for the message. So which is it to be -- God's will or ours?
 
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Albion

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Maybe Jesus appears in some way to people who can't hear the gospel, i mean you really can limit God? i say there will be people saved somehow who never heard the gospel preached.
Didn't you just posit that there are some people who have God appear to them in a way that we don't recognize? If that were so, they presumably would have heard the name of Jesus.

But then you go on to say that your personal preference would be for God to save people who never did. And that is in contrast with what he's told us in his own word.
 
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rturner76

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Jesus said this....>"you must be born again".
So, if that does not suit you, then take it up with Him.
How can you be born again if you never were given the opportunity? You really think it is that simple? That God would send a man born blind to hell because he can't see? Thaere is also a place in the Bible that says :

"For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God."

Do we have a contradiction in the Bible?
 
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Albion

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How can you be born again if you never were given the opportunity?

Apparently, you cannot be. But neither can we say that although were were NOT ever born again, God doesn't care. He'll count it the same as if you had been.

And if we are to turn to the Bible for answers to this, we surely can find verses that testify to the need for being born again. How many verses can be found that attest to the principle that "It doesn't matter if you were or not?"
 
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NBB

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Didn't you just posit that there are some people who have God appear to them in a way that we don't recognize? If that were so, they presumably would have heard the name of Jesus.

But then you go on to say that your personal preference would be for God to save people who never did. And that is in contrast with what he's told us in his own word.

I just don't want to say God is condenminng everyone who hasn't heard the gospel, because he may have childs of his who that Jesus somehow 'convinced' in their hearts or something who never heard the gospel, you just need for Jesus to 'knock at the door' and if you open he will 'have dinner'.
But i don't know for certain.
 
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GenemZ

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So for example, what has Gandhi done that should land him in an eternity of hellfire?

What Gandhi did is inconsequential to his eternal state concerning the Lake of Fire.

If he believed in Jesus Christ? He would be saved, even if from that point on he chose to live in error. Gandhi was very much aware of Jesus Christ and appreciative. He just did not like Christians that much...


False beliefs (false= wood, hay, and stubble) after salvation, will cause the loss of rewards. Not the loss of salvation. The foundation we build upon is the simple act of believing in Jesus Christ.



For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid,
which is Jesus Christ. If anyone builds on this foundation using gold,
silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, their work will be shown for
what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with
fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. If what has
been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. If it is burned up,
the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only
as one escaping through the flames.
2 Cor 3:11-15

Yes... all those folks you know who believed in Jesus, but get everything wrong afterwards, will be saved. That is what it says and tells us. Gandhi just might be in heaven. For he did say he liked Jesus Christ. He just did not like Christians. If the Christians he was around are like some we see here?

grace and peace........
.
 
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NBB

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Didn't you just posit that there are some people who have God appear to them in a way that we don't recognize? If that were so, they presumably would have heard the name of Jesus.

But then you go on to say that your personal preference would be for God to save people who never did. And that is in contrast with what he's told us in his own word.

The thief on the cross probably didn't even know about the OT much and he didn't have the NT, just pure grace from Jesus there, i can't say God is condemning people because they didn't have access to the bible or preachers. The bible just say you need to be born again from the spirit.
Remember that in the very same bible God appeared to people, so he could have perfectly some childs who never heard the gospel.
 
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Albion

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So for example, what has Gandhi done that should land him in an eternity of hellfire?
Gandhi certainly was a sinner, just like the rest of us. Even considering the admirable policies that he is remembered for, he was not a perfect person...and it is that which would be necessary for him to "deserve" heaven without Christ.

And by the way, Gandhi was not a person who had no chance to know or accept Christ. He consciously rejected him.
 
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GenemZ

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How can you be born again if you never were given the opportunity? You really think it is that simple? That God would send a man born blind to hell because he can't see? Thaere is also a place in the Bible that says :

"For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God."

Do we have a contradiction in the Bible?


All men have been at some point drawn by God.


For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,
teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should
live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age.
Tts 2:11-12​


For those who reject that drawing by grace that brings salvation, God is not required to present what He knows they will automatically reject. Its those who desire to know Him that He sends the Gospel. Even if that means sending a missionary through many dangerous trails to present the Gospel to that one person.

God does not waste time. Omniscience makes Him able not to miss anyone whom He knows will believe. In the judgment He will show them how they rejected His drawing them. They will know.
 
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GenemZ

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Can anyone be saved through living righteously?


If he could live righteously (without God's gift of grace given at salvation)?

Then he would not even need salvation.


But, after salvation?...

By the grace and truth from God given, and he accepted?

Then living righteously (in the filling of the Holy Spirit) he
will be saved. That being. Saved by grace and truth from the evils here on earth that we must face in our lifetime.


.
 
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Eilat

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How can you be born again if you never were given the opportunity? You really think it is that simple? That God would send a man born blind to hell because he can't see? Thaere is also a place in the Bible that says :
"For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God."
Do we have a contradiction in the Bible?

I posted quite clearly that the theology that denies freewill and miscasts God as a psycho deity that would send His Son as "God so loved the World", and then not give all in the "world" the free opportunity to embrace God's Son,.....that theology is not of God.
 
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Der Alte

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How can you be born again if you never were given the opportunity? You really think it is that simple? That God would send a man born blind to hell because he can't see? Thaere is also a place in the Bible that says :
"For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God."
Do we have a contradiction in the Bible?
Straight out of the universalist play book. No contradiction at all.
Romans 4:15
15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
Romans 5:13
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Romans 1:18-20
18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness,
19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.
20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
Psalms 19:1-4
1 For the director of music. A psalm of David. The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands.
2 Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they reveal knowledge.
3 They have no speech, they use no words; no sound is heard from them.
4 Yet their voice goes out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world. In the heavens God has pitched a tent for the sun.
Yes, every knee will bow but only faithful believers will be kneeling in love and obedience.
Those who knowingly reject God will be kneeling at the feet of Jesus as defeated enemies. And nothing in scripture says that they will miraculously become faithful believers.
Enemies becoming footstools must be important it is repeated four times in scripture.

Psalms 110:1
1 Of David. A psalm. The LORD says to my lord: "Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet."
Luke 20:42-43
42 David himself declares in the Book of Psalms: "'The Lord said to my Lord: "Sit at my right hand
43 until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet."'
Acts 2:34-35
34 For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said, "'The Lord said to my Lord: "Sit at my right hand
35 until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet."'
Hebrews 10:12-13
12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God,
13 and since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool.
What does enemies being made a footstool mean? Joshua tells us in chapter 10. After the sun stood still Joshua defeated the armies of the 5 Amorite kings. The kings were found hiding in a cave. Joshua ordered them to be brought out.
Joshua 10:24
24 When they had brought these kings to Joshua, he summoned all the men of Israel and said to the army commanders who had come with him, "Come here and put your feet on the necks of these kings." So they came forward and placed their feet on their necks.
. . .
Joshua 10:26
26 Then Joshua put the kings to death and exposed their bodies on five poles, and they were left hanging on the poles until evening.
After the enemies of Israel were made footstools for Joshua they did not become faithful followers of Yahweh..
 
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rturner76

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Apparently, you cannot be. But neither can we say that although were were NOT ever born again, God doesn't care. He'll count it the same as if you had been.

And if we are to turn to the Bible for answers to this, we surely can find verses that testify to the need for being born again. How many verses can be found that attest to the principle that "It doesn't matter if you were or not?"
There are a few that don't say "it doesn't matter" but they say things like "every knee shall bend"
 
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rturner76

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Gandhi certainly was a sinner, just like the rest of us. Even considering the admirable policies that he is remembered for, he was not a perfect person...and it is that which would be necessary for him to "deserve" heaven without Christ.

And by the way, Gandhi was not a person who had no chance to know or accept Christ. He consciously rejected him.
But he did adhere to:
I was hungry and you fed me, thirsty and you gave me a drink; I was a stranger and you received me in your homes, naked and you clothed me; I was sick and you took care of me, in prison and you visited me.
 
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rturner76

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All men have been at some point drawn by God.

For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,
teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should
live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age.
Tts 2:11-12​


For those who reject that drawing by grace that brings salvation, God is not required to present what He knows they will automatically reject. Its those who desire to know Him that He sends the Gospel. Even if that means sending a missionary through many dangerous trails to present the Gospel to that one person.

God does not waste time. Omniscience makes Him able not to miss anyone whom He knows will believe. In the judgment He will show them how they rejected His drawing them. They will know.

How have the Island cannibals who have never seen a white man been drawn by Christ?
 
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rturner76

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I posted quite clearly that the theology that denies freewill and miscasts God as a psycho deity that would send His Son as "God so loved the World", and then not give all in the "world" the free opportunity to embrace God's Son,.....that theology is not of God.
Agreed
 
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lordjeff

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This issue is complicated by the opinions of many distinct sects & of course it is not so simple even in the holy books. A person mentions here the Dalai Lama & I agree with him. There were probably many church-going nazis who thought it was their duty to follow Hitler's orders too. Tell me are they going to paradise & some one who lives in the Amazon does not. Look at how our congress acts. They like to think they're Santa Claus. If the Lord is really strict in his instruction, then when did any of these people-with high responsibility really do anything that was not for some ulterior motive. If it were just based on faith, one could still be a real terrible human being causing all sorts of harm. We really don't understand the concept of hell but I conclude where the line is probably--emphasis on word probably--is that such human being with free will who tries to usurp the authority of Divine Providence is probably Dr. Faustus.
 
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rturner76

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Straight out of the universalist play book. No contradiction at all.
Romans 4:15
15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
Romans 5:13
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Romans 1:18-20
18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness,
19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.
20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
Psalms 19:1-4
1 For the director of music. A psalm of David. The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands.
2 Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they reveal knowledge.
3 They have no speech, they use no words; no sound is heard from them.
4 Yet their voice goes out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world. In the heavens God has pitched a tent for the sun.
Yes, every knee will bow but only faithful believers will be kneeling in love and obedience.
Those who knowingly reject God will be kneeling at the feet of Jesus as defeated enemies. And nothing in scripture says that they will miraculously become faithful believers.
Enemies becoming footstools must be important it is repeated four times in scripture.

Psalms 110:1
1 Of David. A psalm. The LORD says to my lord: "Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet."
Luke 20:42-43
42 David himself declares in the Book of Psalms: "'The Lord said to my Lord: "Sit at my right hand
43 until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet."'
Acts 2:34-35
34 For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said, "'The Lord said to my Lord: "Sit at my right hand
35 until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet."'
Hebrews 10:12-13
12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God,
13 and since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool.
What does enemies being made a footstool mean? Joshua tells us in chapter 10. After the sun stood still Joshua defeated the armies of the 5 Amorite kings. The kings were found hiding in a cave. Joshua ordered them to be brought out.
Joshua 10:24
24 When they had brought these kings to Joshua, he summoned all the men of Israel and said to the army commanders who had come with him, "Come here and put your feet on the necks of these kings." So they came forward and placed their feet on their necks.
. . .
Joshua 10:26
26 Then Joshua put the kings to death and exposed their bodies on five poles, and they were left hanging on the poles until evening.
After the enemies of Israel were made footstools for Joshua they did not become faithful followers of Yahweh..
We can go tit for tat if you want:
1 Timothy 2:4 ESV\
Who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Titus 2:11 ESV \
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

John 12:32 ESV \
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

1 Timothy 4:10 ESV \
For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.

1 Timothy 2:6 ESV \
Who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

1 Peter 4:6 ESV \
For this is why the gospel was preached even to those who are dead, that though judged in the flesh the way people are, they might live in the spirit the way God does.

2 Peter 3:9 ESV \
The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

1 John 4:14 ESV \
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

Luke 19:10 ESV \
For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.”

Colossians 1:20 ESV\
And through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

1 Corinthians 15:22 ESV
For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.

Ephesians 1:10 ESV
As a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

Romans 5:12-21 ESV
Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come. But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. ...

Isaiah 66:23 ESV
From new moon to new moon, and from Sabbath to Sabbath, all flesh shall come to worship before me, declares the Lord.

1 John 2:2 ESV
He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

Philippians 2:10-11 ESV
So that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

2 Corinthians 5:18-19 ESV
All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

1 John 4:8 ESV
Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love.

Romans 11:32 ESV
For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.

Acts 3:21 ESV
Whom heaven must receive until the time for restoring all the things about which God spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets long ago.

John 3:17 ESV
For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.

Revelation 1:18 ESV
And the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades.

Philippians 2:11 ESV
And every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Philippians 2:10 ESV
So that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

Galatians 3:26 ESV
For in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith.

1 Corinthians 15:28 ESV
When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.

Does the Bible contradict itself?
 
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lordjeff

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I like the simple concept-it's grace. That's what does it. Christ did it on the cross once & for all humanity. If it were just a temporary thing with conditions, it kind of dislodges his credibility. Now the very special case of those souls going to hell-a select case indeed-I'd leave it up to them. He knows who they are ahead of time.
 
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GenemZ

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How have the Island cannibals who have never seen a white man been drawn by Christ?
Romans 1:18-23


The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness
and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness,
since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has
made it
plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood
from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.


For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave
thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were
darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and
exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a
mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles."


.
 
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