Only two covenants are presented in the New Testament

Gregory Thompson

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What? Can you rephrase that or elaborate? I see the opposite of your conclusion, going by this statement.
That doesn't sound very encouraging for discussion.

Since you see the exact opposite of what I do in what I posted, this demonstrates that you are unable to understand what I'm talking about.

We had a similar issue last discussion, the OP seemed to refer to a point of discussion from back then - However, it is possible that you discussed with other people who came to the same conclusion.

I would recommend to not jump to conclusions about other people's conclusions, due to the unique arrangement of thoughts you tend to offer. Especially if these jumping conclusions insinuate that people are denying the gospel just because they disagree with you and such.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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Then you are not a Dispensationalist.

Possibly a pattern dispensationalist, like me.

I don't care for the Jewish futurist fiction, but see over arching patterns indicating how the story goes based on previous events.
 
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mkgal1

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That doesn't sound very encouraging for discussion.

Since you see the exact opposite of what I do in what I posted, this demonstrates that you are unable to understand what I'm talking about.

We had a similar issue last discussion, the OP seemed to refer to a point of discussion from back then - However, it is possible that you discussed with other people who came to the same conclusion.

I would recommend to not jump to conclusions about other people's conclusions, due to the unique arrangement of thoughts you tend to offer. Especially if these jumping conclusions insinuate that people are denying the gospel just because they disagree with you and such.
I didn't jump to conclusions about your conclusion....you stated it right here:

It is even written - Jesus said, I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. Thus illustrating, the law becoming obsolete by an newer and better covenant, is not related to fulfillment.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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I didn't jump to conclusions about your conclusion....you stated it right here:

You are possibly using different definitions for the words, but my context is word usage in the bible.
 
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Timtofly

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We gentiles were saved thru the fall of Israel (romans 11:11), not thru the Believing remnant
Gentiles are saved because the Cross opened up Paradise to all of Adam's descendants. If Israel had remained perfect, more would have been in Abraham's bosom. That is all that changed in the 1st century. It was God's plan, not the result and consequences of humanity and their natural ability to sin.

The fruit of the Spirit by outward works, replaced the economy of physically performing the Law of Moses. Only the Holy Spirit working could any in the OT obey the Law. Animal sacrifices was the outward work of covering one's sins, internal or outward. The blood of Jesus Christ is now the outward covering. No one can live the whole Law, because God now says, our thoughts brake the Law, not just our actions.
 
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Brian Mcnamee

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Hi God is going to keep every promise and keep every covenant he made. The ideas that are debated here try to put God into a box based on our understanding of the scriptures. Is it possible that God is keeping the unconditional promises made to Abraham about a great nation and having the land of promise as an everlasting possession and then also enforcing the conditional promise of keeping the covenant with Moses with a destiny of the great nation awakening to the reality that Jesus is God incarnate and indeed savior of the world?

The passage of Jer 31 is clearly tied to chapter 30 the day of Jacob's trouble. If you read both chapters you can see an outline of chronology. The prophecy of Jacob's trouble is made and many glorious outcomes are achieved through this day of judgment and trial. That is most of chapter 30. Chapter 31 is linked and opens with, "at that same time" (the time of Jacob's trouble) and works its way to the promise of the new covenant. This covenant is not according to the one made when coming out of Egypt and is for the forgiveness of sins. So when Jesus took the cup adn announced the New Covenant Being made in His blood He was certainly fulfilling this passage. Now Jesus also knew that most would reject Him and indeed He prophesied that the temple would be torn down and that this generation would be judged and Jerusalem left desolate. This of course did happen in 70AD. So God with foreknowledge of this in the verses immediately following the promise of the new covenant notes that Israel will never cease to be a nation God's eyes and
37 Thus says the LORD:
“If heaven above can be measured,
And the foundations of the earth searched out beneath,
I will also cast off all the seed of Israel
For all that they have done, says the LORD.

So God knowing that Israel would reject the Christ and the destruction of 70AD and that a over 1800 year diaspora was coming sees fit tight here to promise they wont cease to be a nation nor will he cut them off and this is followed by a brief peek into the day of Jacob's trouble. Jer 31 end with the LORD declaring
38 “Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, that the city shall be built for the LORD from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate. 39 The surveyor’s line shall again extend straight forward over the hill Gareb; then it shall turn toward Goath. 40 And the whole valley of the dead bodies and of the ashes, and all the fields as far as the Brook Kidron, to the corner of the Horse Gate toward the east, shall be holy to the LORD. It shall not be plucked up or thrown down anymore forever.”

Now there are dead bodies there when it is rebuilt for the LORD and never thrown down again. It is also now holy and now Holy. This all occurs in the known borders of the Abraham covenant. This is what we see happening in Dan 7 and Zech 14 Joel 3 and Rev life continuing after the LORD has come and a glorious before and after picture. In LUKE 1 Jesus is prophesied to take the throne of David and keep the oaths to the fathers and deliver Israel from their enemies and from that time on they will worship and serve the LORD in holiness without fear all the days of their lives. This is literally going to happen. The New covenant is the only one that ever redeemed man even old testament saints sing in REv 5 that they are redeemed by the blood of the lamb who took the scroll and opened the seals. The LORD is going to keep the oaths and perform his word.
 
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Timtofly

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Why don't "we" look at the bigger picture and not just one verse?

It's completely false to say that it's incorrect that we wouldn't even have a religion called "Christianity" if it weren't for the faithful remnant. I realize that's a double negative....so. to be more clear, I'll repeat in the affirmative....we wouldn't even have a religion called "Christianity" if it weren't for the faithful remnant.
This is still misleading. Only Christ is the reason, not humanity at all.
 
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mkgal1

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This is still misleading. Only Christ is the reason, not humanity at all.
If there were no faithful Israelites (like the women that first told of Jesus's empty tomb) there would be no religion named, "Christianity". It took the partnership of God and faithful humanity that were witnesses of what Jesus had accomplished to form our religion.

Acts 4:16-20
What shall we do with these men?” they asked. “It is clear to everyone living in Jerusalem that a remarkable miracle has occurred through them, and we cannot deny it. 17But to keep this message from spreading any further among the people, we must warn them not to speak to anyone in this name.”18Then they called them in again and commanded them not to speak or teach at all in the name of Jesus. 19But Peter and John replied, “Judge for yourselves whether it is right in God’s sight to listen to you rather than God. 20For we cannot stop speaking about what we have seen and heard.”
 
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Guojing

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The ones who didn't believe did not fall, they stumbled.

Romans 11:11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring! 13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them.

In Romans 11:11, Paul indicated that the ones who stumbled in his day did not fall beyond recovery. He proved that in verses 13 and 14 by saying he was leading Gentiles to salvation in the hope of making his fellow Israelites envious so that he could help "save some of them". So, in the case of the Israelites in Paul's day that people like yourself think were fallen the rest of their lives, Paul was hoping at least "some of them" would be saved.

you misread me, I have always been saying the nation Israel would believe Jesus at the end of the tribulation so your last statement about what I am saying is false
 
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Guojing

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From verse 11:

Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles
......that is referring to Jesus's Crucifixion ("their transgression"). But Paul states, as Spiritual Jew pointed out, that wasn't a permanent fall (as Paul wrote)...but a "stumble". Jesus forgave ALL sin....including His own murder/deicide. That was the Good News that Peter and the disciples were spreading.

Acts 2:36-39
Therefore let all Israel know with certainty that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ!”
37When the people [Israelites in Jerusalem in 30 AD] heard this, they were cut to the heart and asked Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”38Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39This promise belongs to you and your children and to all who are far off—to all whom the Lord our God will call to Himself.

the cross could not have been the final transgression that caused the fall of the nation Israel.

If it was, the final question by the 11 to Jesus in acts 1:6 would not have been asked

peter was still preaching exclusively to the nation Israel in acts 2 and 3 so that is another reason why your interpretation is incorrect
 
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Guojing

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Gentiles are saved because the Cross opened up Paradise to all of Adam's descendants. If Israel had remained perfect, more would have been in Abraham's bosom. That is all that changed in the 1st century. It was God's plan, not the result and consequences of humanity and their natural ability to sin.

The fruit of the Spirit by outward works, replaced the economy of physically performing the Law of Moses. Only the Holy Spirit working could any in the OT obey the Law. Animal sacrifices was the outward work of covering one's sins, internal or outward. The blood of Jesus Christ is now the outward covering. No one can live the whole Law, because God now says, our thoughts brake the Law, not just our actions.

no, if Israel had accepted Jesus as their messiah by acts 7, we gentiles would have been saved thru their rise (genesis 12:3), instead of their fall (romans 11:11)
 
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BABerean2

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no, if Israel had accepted Jesus as their messiah by acts 7, we gentiles would have been saved thru their rise (genesis 12:3), instead of their fall (romans 11:11)


Who do you think is the seed of Abraham through which all of the families of the earth would be blessed in Genesis 12:3?
Have you read Matthew 1:1, and Galatians 3:16?

.
 
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Guojing

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Who do you think is the seed of Abraham through which all of the families of the earth would be blessed in Genesis 12:3?
Have you read Matthew 1:1, and Galatians 3:16?

.

As I said, it was always thru Jesus. But Jesus came from the nation Israel, so its not contradictory.
 
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mkgal1

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the cross could not have been the final transgression that caused the fall of the nation Israel.

If it was, the final question by the 11 to Jesus in acts 1:6 would not have been asked

peter was still preaching exclusively to the nation Israel in acts 2 and 3 so that is another reason why your interpretation is incorrect
That verse doesn't say the Cross *caused the fall of Israel*. The Cross was planned before the foundation of the earth. Not all agree on this, either, but I believe only God's love could have motivated the Cross or else we'd have humanity's sin as the motive and not God's love.

However.....even though God used their transgression for the good of all humanity....it was still deicide.
 
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Guojing

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That verse doesn't say the Cross *caused the fall of Israel*. The Cross was planned before the foundation of the earth. Not all agree on this, either, but I believe only God's love could have motivated the Cross or else we'd have humanity's sin as the motive and not God's love.

However.....even though God used their transgression for the good of all humanity....it was still deicide.

But you earlier claimed that Romans 11:11 is referring to Jesus's Crucifixion ("their transgression") right?

Have you now changed your mind?
 
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Guojing

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Then you are not a Dispensationalist.

One of the chief claims of the doctrine is that during a future time modern Jews will come to salvation outside of the Church.

.

Define what you mean by "outside of the Church".

They will be saved when they acknowledge Jesus as their Messiah at the end of the Tribulation, which is indeed a future event.
 
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keras

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They will be saved when they acknowledge Jesus as their Messiah at the end of the Tribulation, which is indeed a future event.
No Bible prophecy, verse or promise, says the the House of Judah, the Jews; will all acknowledge Jesus after the Great Tribulation, which will be the final 3.5 years of this age.
That idea, widely taught, is not true and will not happen.

Only those few citizens of the Jewish State of Israel, who have accepted Jesus as their Messiah now, will survive the forthcoming Lord's Day of fiery wrath. THEY will be the saved remnant when the Lord clears and cleanses the entire Middle East region. Deuteronomy 32:34-43, Jeremiah 25:27-33, +
 
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Guojing

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No Bible prophecy, verse or promise, says the the House of Judah, the Jews; will all acknowledge Jesus after the Great Tribulation, which will be the final 3.5 years of this age.
That idea, widely taught, is not true and will not happen.

Only those few citizens of the Jewish State of Israel, who have accepted Jesus as their Messiah now, will survive the forthcoming Lord's Day of fiery wrath. THEY will be the saved remnant when the Lord clears and cleanses the entire Middle East region. Deuteronomy 32:34-43, Jeremiah 25:27-33, +

Paul himself said the promises to Israel is without repent (Romans 11:29)

God promised Abraham his physical seed will be blessed and given land on Earth (Genesis 17:8). He will bring that promise to pass.
 
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