Calvinism has its own philosophy langguage that makes things complicated and unnecessary

Jesusthekingofking

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Calvinist's limited atonement? Well, personally I think calvinism explanation in their logic or whatsoever but it's confusing and complicated. I rather be on the side with the early church fathers. That's why I'm not a fan of that tradition.

Scriptures used in support of unlimited atonement:
John 1:29—"The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world."
  • John 3:14-18—"And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."
  • John 3:16—"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." [3]
  • Romans 3:23-24—"For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" [4]
  • Romans 5:18—"Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men."[4]
  • 2 Corinthians 5:14-15—"For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died; and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again."
  • 2 Corinthians 5:19—"n Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation." [5]
    [*]1 Timothy 1:15—"Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst."[3]
    [*]1 Timothy 2:3-6—For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time."
    [*]1 Timothy 4:10—"For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe."
    [*]Titus 2:11—"For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people."
    [*]Hebrews 2:9—"But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone."[3]
    [*]2 Peter 2:1—"They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them." This appears to indicate that Christ "bought" some who are not among the elect.
    [*]2 Peter 3:9—"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."
    [*]1 John 2:2—"And He [Christ] Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world."
    [*]1 John 4:14—"And we have seen and we testify that the Father has sent His Son as the world’s Savior."


    church fathers' writing

Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John Book VI 37-38:
The Father of Jesus is therefore a tender and loving Father, though ”He spared not His own Son, but delivered Him up” as His lamb ”for us all,” that so ”the Lamb of God,” by dying for all men, might ”take away the sin of the world.” It was not by compulsion, therefore, but willingly, that He bore the reproaches of those who reviled Him.

- Origen, Against Celsus VIII.43 (248 AD)

Where our Lord Jesus Christ, who took upon Him to die for all, stretched forth His hands, not somewhere on the earth beneath, but in the air itself, in order that the Salvation effected by the Cross might be shown to be for all men everywhere: destroying the devil who was working in the air: and that He might consecrate our road up to Heaven, and make it free.
- Athanasius of Alexandria, Letter 22 (297-373 AD)

“So Christ was once offered.” By whom offered? Evidently by Himself. Here he says that He is not Priest only, but Victim also, and what is sacrificed. On this account are [the words] ”was offered.” ”Was once offered” (he says) ”to bear the sins of many.” Why ”of many,” and not ”of all”? Because not all believed. For He died indeed for all, that is His part: for that death was a counterbalance against the destruction of all men. But He did not bear the sins of all men, because they were not willing.
- John Chrysostom, Homily on the Pestle to the Hebrews 17.4 (347-407 AD)


In some pictures of the venerable icons, a lamb is painted to which the Precursor points his finger, which is received as a type of grace, indicating beforehand through the Law, our true Lamb, Christ our God. Embracing therefore the ancient types and shadows as symbols of the truth, and patterns given to the Church, we prefer ”grace and truth,” receiving it as the fulfillment of the Law. In order therefore that ”that which is perfect” may be delineated to the eyes of all, at least in colored expression, we decree that the figure in human form of the Lamb who takes away the sin of the world, Christ our God, be henceforth exhibited in images, instead of the ancient lamb, so that all may understand by means of it the depths of the humiliation of the Word of God, and that we may recall to our memory his conversation in the flesh, his passion and salutary death, and his redemption which was wrought for the whole world.
- Council of Trullo, Canon 82 (692 AD)


Just as our Lord was the Creator of all, so also as the Restorer of all He has absolved the whole world with a single death. For we must surely believe that He who has given more than the whole world was worth has ransomed the whole world.
- Augustine, Sermon 193 (PL 39:902)
 

All Glory To God

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Calvinist's limited atonement? Well, personally I think calvinism explanation in their logic or whatsoever but it's confusing and complicated. I rather be on the side with the early church fathers. That's why I'm not a fan of that tradition.

. . . . .
Origen’s Commentary

Well the people who appeal to ''church fathers'' or early Christians do exactly that. Specifically I am thinking of Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox that claim they are following a tradition that will justify their model of salvation and indeed their church as authoritative over Christendom.

Do you accept that? Do accept the Roman catholic church AND the Eastern orthodox church as correct in their assertions, because both are making the claim to that tradition following these church fathers? If not you are just contradicting yourself.

And how much do you agree with Origin? He did not believe in hell and held to a type of universal salvation and seems to accept various Apocrypha work as canonical, quoting them in his De Principiis.
 
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Jesusthekingofking

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Well the people who appeal to ''church fathers'' or early Christians do exactly that. Specifically I am thinking of Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox that claim they are following a tradition that will justify their model of salvation and indeed their church as authoritative over Christendom.

Do you accept that? Do accept the Roman catholic church AND the Eastern orthodox church as correct in their assertions, because both are making the claim to that tradition following these church fathers? If not you are just contradicting yourself.

And how much do you agree with Origin? He did not believe in hell and held to a type of universal salvation and seems to accept various Apocrypha work as canonical, quoting them in his De Principiis.
The church father isn't perfect, they make errors obviously. But we have to see what they say and quote about the scripture. Scripture have the highest authority. If we omit 100% of the fathers, then we have 30k denomination with their own unique teaching. Which one do you prefer? You want to see christian doctrine keep evolving and rootless?
 
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All Glory To God

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The church father isn't perfect, they make errors obviously. But we have to see what they say and quote about the scripture. Scripture have the highest authority. If we omit 100% of the fathers, then we have 30k denomination with their own unique teaching. Which one do you prefer? You want to see christian doctrine keep evolving and rootless?

Ah, so you you do belong to one those two groups.

Well all I can say is you called in early Christians as justification to your point, and now you admit they have their errors. So how can we follow people who have errors and keep tradition?

That is not a reliable method. It leads to corruption, false teaching and blasphemy.
 
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Jesusthekingofking

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Ah, so you you do belong to one those two groups.

Well all I can say is you called in early Christians as justification to your point, and now you admit they have their errors. So how can we follow people who have errors and keep tradition?

That is not a reliable method. It leads to corruption, false teaching and blasphemy.
So what do you do then? What's your methodology to receive the teachings of the apostolic teaching? Are you an atheist?
 
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Andrewn

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Well the people who appeal to ''church fathers'' or early Christians do exactly that. Specifically I am thinking of Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox that claim they are following a tradition that will justify their model of salvation and indeed their church as authoritative over Christendom.

Do you accept that? Do accept the Roman catholic church AND the Eastern orthodox church as correct in their assertions, because both are making the claim to that tradition following these church fathers? If not you are just contradicting yourself.
You don't have to be a Greek Orthodox or a Roman Catholic to abhor Calvinism. A large number if not most Protestants and Credobaptists also reject his heresy. I've never met so many Calvinists except on these Forums. I wish they all label themselves "Reformed" as you do.
 
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All Glory To God

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So what do you do then? What's your methodology to receive the teachings of the apostolic teaching? Are you an atheist?


You are talking stupid now, asking if I am an Atheist. It's uncalled for and just leads to a bad place.
 
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All Glory To God

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You don't have to be a Greek Orthodox or a Roman Catholic to abhor Calvinism.

I agree, it just requires a hostile attitude.

A large number if not most Protestants and Credobaptists also reject his heresy.

Well Reformed people had a major part in the Protestant Reformation, perhaps look at the history? You can call Reformed people or Calvinist...whoever you want a heretic because you disagree with their doctrine. If a person does not behave like a christian, doesn't matter what doctrine they hold to, they betray themselves as something else.

Just look at you, you are clearly fuming with bile. Abhorring people, calling them heretic, misinforming people about the historical role Reformed had. What kind of nature is going to be driving that?

I've never met so many Calvinists except on these Forums. I wish they all label themselves "Reformed" as you do.

Why do you want Calvinists to all label themselves "Reformed"?
 
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com7fy8

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Calvinist's limited atonement?
I would be interested in why someone believes in this. How did John Calvin live, as the interpretation of his beliefs? I believe something; herefore what?

I go with 1 John 2:2 which you quoted >
[*]1 John 2:2—"And He [Christ] Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world."
And I feed on 1 Timothy 4:10 >
[*]1 Timothy 4:10—"For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe."
But though He is the Savior of all people, there are those who do not believe. So, they miss out. But God can change any person. So, I understand Jesus wants me to have hope for any person, at all . . . like to how Christ on Calvary's cross so suffered and died with hope for any evil person.

Love "hopes all things" (in 1 Corinthians 13:7).

But I know what Romans 9:21 says, too. So, I believe God is in control, but He has me loving any and all people, ready and willing for any person to become adopted. And He has us praying for all people, that they may be saved > 1 Timothy 2:1-4.

So, whether one believes in God's control or free choice, His all-loving love has us hoping for any person and praying "for" any and all people.
 
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Jesusthekingofking

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I would be interested in why someone believes in this. How did John Calvin live, as the interpretation of his beliefs? I believe something; herefore what?

I go with 1 John 2:2 which you quoted >
And I feed on 1 Timothy 4:10 >
But though He is the Savior of all people, there are those who do not believe. So, they miss out. But God can change any person. So, I understand Jesus wants me to have hope for any person, at all . . . like to how Christ on Calvary's cross so suffered and died with hope for any evil person.

Love "hopes all things" (in 1 Corinthians 13:7).

But I know what Romans 9:21 says, too. So, I believe God is in control, but He has me loving any and all people, ready and willing for any person to become adopted. And He has us praying for all people, that they may be saved > 1 Timothy 2:1-4.

So, whether one believes in God's control or free choice, His all-loving love has us hoping for any person and praying "for" any and all people.
so? what you want to say?
 
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Jesusthekingofking

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@Jesusthekingofking, thank you for including scriptural references in your thread. Might I ask if you'd be willing to pick one to start with and provide your interpretation of the text and its context? :)
how about you start first? I give you a chance to read in calvinist's context. Also if possible, please give me reference to the early church father who's able to read like a calvinist (unless you believe the fathers are too dumb not able to exegete like you did)
 
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Jesusthekingofking

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I agree, it just requires a hostile attitude.



Well Reformed people had a major part in the Protestant Reformation, perhaps look at the history? You can call Reformed people or Calvinist...whoever you want a heretic because you disagree with their doctrine. If a person does not behave like a christian, doesn't matter what doctrine they hold to, they betray themselves as something else.

Just look at you, you are clearly fuming with bile. Abhorring people, calling them heretic, misinforming people about the historical role Reformed had. What kind of nature is going to be driving that?



Why do you want Calvinists to all label themselves "Reformed"?
there's nothing too wrong to call ppl heretic, indeed calvin is indeed consider heretic to many, even protestant. meanwhile lutheran and Calvinism has been declared heretic in the early days of the reformation.
 
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Jesusthekingofking

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You are talking stupid now, asking if I am an Atheist. It's uncalled for and just leads to a bad place.
You challenge my methodology for finding truth in the text, I ask you to show yours, can't you just give a direct answer?
 
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Jesusthekingofking

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Well the people who appeal to ''church fathers'' or early Christians do exactly that. Specifically I am thinking of Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox that claim they are following a tradition that will justify their model of salvation and indeed their church as authoritative over Christendom.

Do you accept that? Do accept the Roman catholic church AND the Eastern orthodox church as correct in their assertions, because both are making the claim to that tradition following these church fathers? If not you are just contradicting yourself.

And how much do you agree with Origin? He did not believe in hell and held to a type of universal salvation and seems to accept various Apocrypha work as canonical, quoting them in his De Principiis.
how about you? dear reformed christian, aren't reformed is also your tradition? I'm waiting for you to show me your methodology to interpret scripture.
 
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All Glory To God

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there's nothing too wrong to call ppl heretic, indeed calvin is indeed consider heretic to many, even protestant. meanwhile lutheran and Calvinism has been declared heretic in the early days of the reformation.


What about killing a heretic, is there anything wrong with that?
 
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com7fy8

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please give me reference to the early church father who's able to read like a calvinist
I have read some of what is said to be John Calvin's writing, and I get more from the Bible. I think the Bible is more clear.

lutheran and Calvinism has been declared heretic
And there are people who call Roman Catholics heretics. And there are people of cults who are called heretics.

your methodology to interpret scripture
Be quiet, trust God to have me get what He wants me to get. What really is good for me is the love meaning of any scripture . . . not merely what to think in comparison to other people. But how can any scripture help us to love?
 
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Jesusthekingofking

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I have read some of what is said to be John Calvin's writing, and I get more from the Bible. I think the Bible is more clear.

And there are people who call Roman Catholics heretics. And there are people of cults who are called heretics.

Be quiet, trust God to have me get what He wants me to get. What really is good for me is the love meaning of any scripture . . . not merely what to think in comparison to other people. But how can any scripture help us to love?
there are many quite, trust God pastor who started their denominations out of love.. according to your methodology
 
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