Why Antiochus was not the little horn
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Freedm
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Well, we would still have Christ's future coming and our resurrection / transformation, as well as Satan's release for a short time at the end of the thousand years, but yes most of the book of Revelation would already be behind us and in my opinion that's extremely freeing.
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Freedm
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The church did not miss the coming of the Lord. The fact that they all escaped Jerusalem and survived in the mountains of Pella proves that they were aware of what was about to happen, so no they did not miss it at all. The only thing they missed was God's wrath because they knew when to escape as Jesus had warned them.
Who was the AC? Which AC are you talking about? There are literally billions of anti-Christs in the world today. Take your pick.
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Freedm
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If you think a temple building can be holy to the Lord in the future then I'm afraid you don't understand the gospel at all. The temple is part of the old covenant system which is a curse and a death trap for those who hold to it. Don't you know that Jesus replaced the old covenant with a new, and better, covenant? Why do you think the temple was destroyed?
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keras
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If you believe everything in Revelation was fulfilled in 70 AD, then you either have no historical knowledge, or you refuse to face reality.
Nothing in the Book of Revelation relates to the first century, although the first five Seals were opened by Jesus at His Ascension. Proved by all the Martyrs since Stephen.
This is a typical response from people who simply have not read the many prophesies that undeniably state there will be a new Temple in Jerusalem, during the end times and Jesus will return to it for His Millennium reign.
Ezekiel 40 to 46 fully describes this new building and its operation. God's Shekinah glory will reside in it, Ezekiel 43:1-5
The Lord's Christian peoples will worship in it; Isaiah 56:1-8, Revelation 11:1
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- Oct 12, 2020
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Freedm said:
You are both wrong. Extreme preterism and extreme futurism are both false methods of interpreting the book of Revelation. It's true that not everything was fulfilled by 70 AD, but it's also not true that "nothing in the book of Revelation relates to the first century".
How can you say that when the book of Revelation is addressed specifically "to the seven churches in the province of Asia"? You understand that the province of Asia existed in the first century and that those seven churches were actual churches in the old province of Asia, don't you? There are messages given specifically to them in Revelation 2 and 3, so how can you say "nothing in the book of Revelation relates to the first century"?
The book of Revelation is about things occurring during the entire New Testament era. It's not only about things that happened before 70 AD and it's not only about things that will happen in the future. It's about this:
Revelation 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;
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Berean Tim
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1st John 2:18Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist (singular) is coming, so now many antichrists have come.
This antichrist. The Beast of Revelation. The man of sin in 2nd Thessalonians.
You avoid the subject because the 70AD doctrine fails on many levels.
There was to be a follow up question. If there was The AC in 70AD, Who was the False Prophet ? The "fatal head wound that was healed" ?
You "chop up" passages to fit, like the one about the AC. It clearly states they were looking for a singular AC, but you reads right over that.
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keras
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Only from Revelation 1 to Revelation 6:11.
The Letters to the Seven Church's, also apply to modern Church's too.
We await the Sixth Seal Day of the Lord's fiery wrath, the world changer that will set the scene for all the rest to happen, leading up to the glorious Return and after the Millennium, Eternity.
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Freedm
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I've read Josephus' Wars of the Jews. Have you?
It's a typical response because it's true. The new covenant required that the old be removed, as it was. Why would God bring it back?
Undeniably? Really? Show me where it undeniable states "there will be a new temple in Jerusalem and Jesus will return to it for his millennium reign.". We both know it doesn't say that anywhere. Please, if you're going to present your beliefs, at least don't insult me by claiming these things are clearly stated. Explain why you believe it, but don't insult me.
Those verses pertain to the temple that's been destroyed and the fact that it was still standing in Revelation 11 proves that Revelation 11 was written prior to its destruction.
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Freedm
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First of all, please don't accuse me of modifying or ignoring the scriptures to make things "fit". I'm a very open minded person and am always looking to refine my understanding of scripture, which is evidenced by the fact that I've changed my mind on many positions over the years. Never do I lock in stone anything that remains open to other interpretations. I will not "defend" a position except to the extent that I explain it as I see it, for I see that kind of pigheadedness as a stumbling block and a solid wall that prevents us from seeing the truth. This philosophy is what's allowed me to change my mind on many occasions and I feel that each time I get one step closer to fully understanding. I hope that you'll be equally open minded to consider the possibility that you've been wrong and imagine how things could be understood differently.
John wrote his books likely in the 90 to 95 AD timeframe, a time during which Caesar Domitian reigned and it's been said that he was cruel towards Christians, though evidence is primarily hearsay with the exception of John's exile to Patmos. Regardless, it's likely that if John was referring to a single anti-Christ he was referring to Caesar. If you want a more affirmative answer you'll have to ask him yourself.
Nevertheless it can not be denied that John himself said, even in that very same verse, that there were many anti-Christs so none of us can claim that there's only one. He goes on to explain that anyone who denies Christ is anti-Christ. This is not hard to understand.
1 John 2:22
It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist—denying the Father and the Son.
And for the record I will not "avoid" any subject, because what would that benefit me? Do you still think that I only care to be right? On the contrary, I come to this place to be challenged and to learn, not to teach.
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keras
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Yes. I actually have 2 copies of it.
Josephus's history, is proof that what is described in Revelation did not happen in 70-135 AD.
You must live in fantasy land to believe we now have the fulfillment of Hebrews 8:10-12
The Old Covenant is not brought back, but the new remains to be totally fulfilled.
Daniel 11:31 is referred to by Jesus as a future event. Matthew 24:15 The Romans did not fulfill this when they destroyed the 2nd Temple.
Revelation 11:1-2 clearly does not refer to the 2nd Temple, as the trampling by the gentiles is for just 42 months. NOT nearly 2000 years!
2 Thessalonians 2:4 also proves it.
Jesus will reign from the new Temple in Jerusalem. Zechariah 14:16
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Berean Tim
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John taught the one AC is coming. All the ECF were still looking for him. There's no evidence it was Domitian.
This is not hard to understand, unless you need it to fit.
Did you address the FP or avoid it ? If there was a 1st century AC, then there had to be a FP. The one who causes the image to be built, to take the mark of the beast, and leads the worship of the Beast.
I've changed my mind too. From Pre-Trib to Pre- Wrath. I also studied Peterism with prayer and an open mind. I often face the same avoidance and insults (pigheadedness) when they don't have an answer
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Freedm
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What exactly do you see in Josephus' words that proves Revelation did not happen in 70 AD?
Not sure why you have a hard time believing Hebrews 8:10-12 has been fulfilled. Is the law of God not written on your heart, and on the hearts of all men? Does not everyone have an inherent understanding of right and wrong, a yard stick with which we all agree?
How do you know the Romans did not fulfill this? Did Gessius Florus not bring his troops into the temple in 66 AD to steal gold? Would his troops not have brought their eagle emblems? Or if you prefer Luke's account of the abomination, where the armies surrounded the city, was this also not fulfilled in 70 AD? Did the zealots not slaughter innocent people in the temple, and anoint a false priest not from the line of Aaron? Depending on your definition of "abomination", there are indeed several instances to which we could apply the fulfillment.
What do you think is meant by "the trampling of the gentiles"?
I'm not 100% sure on what Zechariah 14 is referring to, but it hardly proves anything unless we could both first agree on what it means.
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keras
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What happened then, is quite different to what Revelation describes.
No, the Law is not Written on the hearts of all people.
We Christians do not say: know the Lord, for all will know Me....
And all our wicked deeds are not yet pardoned...
We have a definition of the 'abomination;. 2 Thessalonians 2:4.... he will enthrone himself in God's Temple, claiming to be God.
It will be when the 'beast', the leader of the One World Govt takes control of the holy Land. As described in Zechariah 14:1-2, Daniel 11:31 and Revelation 13:7
Zechariah 14:16-21 describes the Millennium period. It says that Jesus will be in Jerusalem and the Lord's House will be a holy place for all the nations.
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Freedm
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I'm reminded of the words of C.S. Lewis in "The Case for Christianity", making the case for what he calls the "Law of Nature". He says regarding the quarreling of people: "It looks, in fact, very much as if both parties had in mind some kind of Law or Rule of fair play or decent behaviour or morality or whatever you like to call it, about which they really agreed. And they have. If they hadn't, they might, of course, fight like animals, but they couldn't quarrel in the human sense of the word. Quarrelling means trying to show that the other man's in the wrong. And there'd be no sense in trying to do that unless you and he had some sort of agreement as to what Right and Wrong are; just as there'd be no sense in saying that a footballer had committed a foul unless there was some agreement about the rules of football."
and
"Human beings, all over the earth, have this curious idea that they ought to behave in a certain way, and can't really get rid of it.".
Do you not agree that as human beings we all have this curious idea that we ought to behave in a certain way? And could this not be what God was referring to when he said he would write the law on our hearts? If not the concept of right and wrong, then what kind of law do you suppose God was referring to?
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keras
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We humans do have a sense of morality and a conscience. We all, or most all; do know what is right and wrong.
But God has not yet Written His Laws onto our hearts. Even born again Christians can stray and fall into sin.
It will happen when all the Christian peoples go to live in all of the holy Land, soon after the Lords Day of fiery wrath has cleared and cleansed the entire Middle East area. Isaiah 35:1-10 is one of the many prophesies that describe this migration. Our new nation will be called Beulah. Isaiah 62:1-5
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Freedm
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What do you think it means to have the law written on your heart? I get the sense that you feel it means we will no longer do anything wrong. Is that what you believe?
I don't believe that's what it means. I believe it simply means we know wrong from right.
I don't believe that's what it means. I believe it simply means we know wrong from right.
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