How do pro-gay Christians reconcile their views with anti-gay scripture?

Gregorikos · Dec 20, 2020

muichimotsu said:
Do you even know the different between inerrant and infallible?

If you held either viewpoint you would heed what it says.

They know God’s decree, that those who practice such things deserve to die—yet they not only do them but even applaud others who practice them. Romans 1:32 (NRSV)

RestoreTheJoy · Dec 20, 2020

Nine of Spades said:
There are perverts out there who engage in a deviant adult practice called “swinging.” It’s where a married man and another married man trade their wives for a night. Can you imagine if the media promoted swingers like they promote homosexuals? Such a scenario would be indicative of how truly depraved our society has become. Indeed, it would be wrong to confer special status and privileges to swingers like the media does with homosexuals. Why then is the media obsessed with conferring special status and privileges to gay people? Our nation should return to God and quit promoting unnatural adult practices.

Based on what I see now, if the media spoke of it positively all day long as it does many other issues, I'm sure a huge number would say that adultery is perfectly fine and not damaging to society at all, because, you know..."love is love", and "my body, my choice" (except when it comes to developing babies). They will parrot whatever the mainstream media tells them is "truth". Repeat a lie often enough and it becomes truth, it has been said.

RestoreTheJoy · Dec 20, 2020

muichimotsu said:
Not sure how visibility remotely means telling people it is good or something to be emulated by everyone. As a straight person, maybe you're just threatened by people besides your sexual orientation being given representation in media at all.
....
Oh, you're adorable to think someone being open about being gay in a society that still turns a blind eye to gay people being more likely to be murdered, along with trans people, is somehow just "bragging". But again, as a likely straight person, you don't know what it feels like to only differ from your peers in one manner and get told constantly by people that supposedly care about you that this one thing is evil and you shouldn't do it even though that person would likely be okay with the constraints applied to sexuality that are expected in the bible (fidelity, monogamy, etc), the only one that is manufactured to make gay people out to be sex perverts or such the one that tries to treat a consensual gay act in the same vein as cheating on one's spouse, raping someone or having hedonistic irresponsible sex, a thoroughly hasty generalization

We have gone WAY beyond "visibility".

And no, the spurious speculation of "threatened" is abjectly false. It's just more of the "Disagreement means hate" nonsense. Rejected on its face.

You must not be paying attention to the news if you haven't seen sexual identity promoted frequently as an important credential, when it is not. People are going to do what they are going to do and no one is stopping them.

But this question was about the CHURCH. I am referring to the Church only. In the CHURCH, believers need to adhere to God's Word and not the world's standards and beliefs, which are directly contrary to Truth.

You are conflating principles if you wrongly think that anyone is talking about hedonism. God has sexual standards for His people and He is pretty serious about it. People sin, and can repent. But unrepentant sin has consequences. In reference to sexual sins in particular - which are by no way an exhaustive list of sins one should know better than to commit if one has any biblical grounding whatsoever (like don't kill, don't steal, etc) - Adultery, fornication, and homosexual behavior are all forbidden. Not just the last one. All of them are not for God's people.

RestoreTheJoy · Dec 20, 2020

muichimotsu said:
You seem to think it was purely about the lust when that is arguably a product of their inhospitable and immoral attitude that exploited people in any way they could. I don't need any god to tell me that treating people in such a callous and cruel fashion is wrong and I'd condemn homosexual rape if that was indeed the case for Sodom (it's debated, supposedly, but minutiae really), but not condemn my homosexual friends, because they aren't, to my knowledge, raping people

Well, if you believe erroneously that this passage condemns only rape - a revisionist theology that has become popular among some circles - then you are correct. Rape is already condemned and is already criminal.

But that isn't what this passage or the other relevant ones say, and it is not what the totality of scripture teaches. Ignore at your peril (if in the Church).

RestoreTheJoy · Dec 20, 2020

tulc said:
well...that's not actually true, is it? Apparently the Lord has changed His position on some pretty major things over the years. Take divorce for example.

Here we have an actual quote from Jesus talking about something the Church pretty much ignores now. Or how about the fact that, again according to Jesus, you don't actually have a choice about whether or not to help the people around you? Most people in the Church talk about "if you feel lead, think about helping those less fortunate then us." Where as according to Jesus if you DON'T help that will get you sent to hell.

those are things Jesus said, but when's the last time anyone started threads about them? No, people start threads about homosexuality because, for the most part, it A) gives them a chance to pull out the "clobber Scriptures" and who doesn't like to do that?
And
B) for the most part they don't worry it will be something that they'll ever have to deal with.
tulc(just pointing out that the church has changed it's position about some major things already)

Um, where did Jesus ever change His mind about divorce.

That did not happen.

Who is arguing we shouldn't help those around us. YOU help them (and I help them). I don't get to boot off the responsibility, a la Ebenezer Scrooge, and say, "Well, the government should take care of it." You paid anyone's rent this month?

And the topic presented was homosexuality being accepted by Christians in the Church in this particular post, so a discussion of such is rather relevant here.

If you don't want to talk about that, there are other posts to respond to. Lots of them.

tulc · Dec 20, 2020

RestoreTheJoy said:
Um, where did Jesus ever change His mind about divorce.

Well, apparently He did about the time Church leaders began wanting to get divorced and suddenly it wasn't as big a deal as the Church had been led to believe. When I was a baby Christian it was unheard of for a pastor or a Church leader to have been or to get a divorce. Than sometime in I think the mid 80's...it apparently was no longer that big of a deal. And today it's even less so. Now you may say to me "But tulc, that's just various parts of the Church, that isn't Jesus! He didn't change!" to which I'd say: "well if the Church is who represents Jesus to the world, (since they see the Church and can't see Jesus) what the Churches teach is what they see Jesus teaching."

That did not happen.

I'm going to have to disagree with you about that.

Who is arguing we shouldn't help those around us. YOU help them (and I help them). I don't get to boot off the responsibility, a la Ebenezer Scrooge, and say, "Well, the government should take care of it." You paid anyone's rent this month?

Not the point I was making. To Jesus, not helping is one of the things worthy of Hell, when's the last time the Church taught that particular doctrine? Instead it's "well, if you feel led..." and that's not even sort of what Jesus taught.

And the topic presented was homosexuality being accepted by Christians in the Church in this particular post, so a discussion of such is rather relevant here.

Click to expand...

Actually taken in context with the thread, they were someone said "the Church never believed being gay was okay, and since it's never been taught that means we can't do something different." I pointed out some thing that is pretty widely accepted now a days among Christians that hadn't been before. And it was something that Jesus Himself spoke about. My point was: things do change. Which is what this thread is about.

If you don't want to talk about that, there are other posts to respond to. Lots of them.

Click to expand...

uhmmm...I actually was talking about it.
tulc(hopes that explains his point)

Click to expand...

dlamberth · Dec 20, 2020

As someone who approaches the OP from the perspective of a Lover of God, though not a Christian, I appreciate the quandary that many Christians have been put into with the social acceptance of same sex unions. In my life there are a number of couples who are in same sex marriages, it's not a big deal to me. But as you can see below I have a different page of perspective.

I have a high a interest in Medieval Mystics. There's one person, Marguerite Porete who wrote something that has really made me to see things in a very different light. What she wrote is that there are two Churches. The first she called the High Holy Church. That church, she wrote, "preaches" Love. The other church "preaches" rules, laws and order. That church she called the Little Holy Church. As a heart opening vision of Christ, that's been an important vision for contemplation. But has happens, Marguerite Porete was burned at the stake by the Little Holy Church for heresy. I'm reminded of this difference of perspective in approaching Christ as I've read through this thread.

RestoreTheJoy · Dec 20, 2020

tulc said:
Well, apparently He did about the time Church leaders began wanting to get divorced and suddenly it wasn't as big a deal as the Church had been led to believe. When I was a baby Christian it was unheard of for a pastor or a Church leader to have been or to get a divorce. Than sometime in I think the mid 80's...it apparently was no longer that big of a deal. And today it's even less so. Now you may say to me "But tulc, that's just various parts of the Church, that isn't Jesus! He didn't change!" to which I'd say: "well if the Church is who represents Jesus to the world, (since they see the Church and can't see Jesus) what the Churches teach is what they see Jesus teaching."

I'm going to have to disagree with you about that.

Jesus is the Word. The Word doesn't change.

Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Hebrews 13:8

So what you saw is a dilution and dismissal of what Jesus said. That didn't mean it was suddenly ok just because man wants to do what he wants to do. (And you may not have known which divorces were because of adultery and which were not).

NBB · Dec 20, 2020

dlamberth said:
As someone who approaches the OP from the perspective of a Lover of God, though not a Christian, I appreciate the quandary that many Christians have been put into with the social acceptance of same sex unions. In my life there are a number of couples who are in same sex marriages, it's not a big deal to me. But as you can see below I have a different page of perspective.

I have a high a interest in Medieval Mystics. There's one person, Marguerite Porete who wrote something that has really made me to see things in a very different light. What she wrote is that there are two Churches. The first she called the High Holy Church. That church, she wrote, "preaches" Love. The other church "preaches" rules, laws and order. That church she called the Little Holy Church. As a heart opening vision of Christ, that's been an important vision for contemplation. But has happens, Marguerite Porete was burned at the stake by the Little Holy Church for heresy. I'm reminded of this difference of perspective in approaching Christ as I've read through this thread.

Love is too telling someone of a danger against them! not patting them in the back approving them when they head for disaster!.

hedrick · Dec 20, 2020

NBB said:
Love is too telling someone of a danger against them! not patting them in the back approving them when they head for disaster!.

Only if ancient sexual attitudes actually reflect God’s.

NBB · Dec 20, 2020

hedrick said:
Only if ancient sexual attitudes actually reflect God’s.

The same people who saw Jesus, and are supposed to be the 12 pearl gates of heaven (meaning they were important) may have some more input in what we need to do with the gospel than today lgbt movement that twist scripture "for their own destruction" the bible says.

This very same bible talks about the saviour, the same person who is alive and that we can know today.

Jesus talked that the way may be narrow sometimes, by just grabbing today society corrupt morality nobody is helping with this.

We are not supposed to conform to today thinking but be renovated in our minds.

When things (person actually) like the Holy spirit etc enters your life and the bible hits the mark again and again with this happening to you, you may start to think what it says is actually true, better to just think this from the begining.

tulc · Dec 20, 2020

RestoreTheJoy said:
Jesus is the Word. The Word doesn't change.

But our understanding of Him can.

Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Hebrews 13:8

Also true, but I suspect what we believe about Him and what He taught, is a lot different than what we believed even 30 years ago, and to think we'll have the same beliefs 30 years from now as we do today is...unlikely.

So what you saw is a dilution and dismissal of what Jesus said.

well...if we honestly look at Church history, the "dilution and dismissal" of today, will become "tradition and doctrine" in a few years.

That didn't mean it was suddenly ok just because man wants to do what he wants to do.

On the other hand, never underestimate man's ability to find a way to do what he wants. And to find a justification for it from Scripture. Don't get me wrong, I'm not condemning the Church for this, history has shown what a happens when an absolute belief in "We Have The Correct doctrine, All Others Are Wrong!!" is in place, it tends to end with "heretics" driven out, in jail and sometimes on fire. Coming from an Anabaptist background tends to make me be a little...nervous around people who believe they have all the correct answers.

(And you may not have known which divorces were because of adultery and which were not).

well, and I mean no disrespect at all here, but I suspect neither do you. Or in the case that was the reason, who committed the adultery.
tulc(will drop this point as it seems to be distracting the thread) :wave:

NBB · Dec 20, 2020

You have to see their 'pride' parades, grown adults showing their parts to children in the street, and we need to reconcile any of this with the gospel? in what gospel we are believing... do me a favour.

Rajni · Dec 20, 2020

NBB said:
You have to see their 'pride' parades, grown adults showing their parts to children in the street, and we need to reconcile any of this with the gospel? in what gospel we are believing... do me a favour.

Some of that behavior likely has less to do with orientation and more to do with psychological issues. Pastors and priests have also behaved inappropriately towards kids – being gay or heterosexual doesn’t necessarily have anything to do with it.

tulc · Dec 20, 2020

NBB said:
You have to see their 'pride' parades, grown adults showing their parts to children in the street, and we need to reconcile any of this with the gospel? in what gospel we are believing... do me a favour.

...are you saying gay people are the only people who've ever behaved badly in America?
tulc(suspects that's not actually true)

NBB · Dec 20, 2020

tulc said:
...are you saying gay people are the only people who've ever behaved badly in America?
tulc(suspects that's not actually true)

Of course not, but i don't see other movement trying to make sins to get acceptation from everyone, and calling them bigots because you disagree with what they do, i would be against that the same way as this, i don't hate gay people i would treat any gay person with respect, but i hate the whole promotion of what is not ok and actually dangerous in regard of what the bible says.

NBB · Dec 20, 2020

The same scripture that says believe in Jesus for salvation.

Says that:

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

Also Jesus tell us the path is narrow, and he also took scriptures seriously.

We are going to go by what society says is ok as christians?

A bit weird we have 2000 years of people having an idea of what the bible says suddenly when some movement grabs momemtum scriptures that talk about them get twisted by some people? are you sure what we are believing here? thank God most of the leaders and scholars can't betray what they know is true about scriptures.

loveofourlord · Dec 20, 2020

Nine of Spades said:
...except there is the fact that I am not promoting homosexuality, nor am I calling it moral.

My thesis was clear: how do pro-gay Christians support homosexuality when the Bible is against it?

Any response you get by us would fall under those rules so it's goading.

ABCthings · Dec 20, 2020

seeking.IAM said:
At the end of the day, we're all sinners.

"We are all sinners" in the novel you authored right?
'Cause I know I'm not!

ABCthings · Dec 20, 2020

Akita Suggagaki said:
Hw do we reconcile eating pork?

Leviticus 11:8 And the pig, though it has a split hoof completely divided, does not chew the cud; it is unclean for you. You must not eat their meat or touch their carcasses; they are unclean for you.

How did you read this part and not read the part where Jesus said it what comes out of a man that makes him unclean?

How do pro-gay Christians reconcile their views with anti-gay scripture?

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