Zechariah 14 and Premil vs Amil

DavidPT said:

Before we try and determine what is meant by the living waters

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Whoa, whoa. Stop right there. What is God's definition of the living water in Scripture? God is not talking about some H2O here!

Even to this day Jerusalem is not safely inhabited, and it for certain isn't safely inhabited as of verse 2.

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If you look at the modern city of Jerusalem, of course, itis not safely inhabited but that is not what God talks about here.

If we spiritualize Jerusalem in verse 8-11 to maybe be symbolizing the NT church in this age, but then consider Revelation 13 and the persecution on the church by way of the beast, in what way does that fit what Zechariah 14:11 records about Jerusalem, that it shall be safely inhabited?

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Don't you know what does "safely inhabited" means in context? Do you honestly think God is talking about people living within the physical city of Jerusalem safe from the army? No! Have you heard what God said? He talked about His congregation Israel where nations (heathen) are brought in with the blood of the Lamb where they are now living safely in God's Kingdom since the Cross? This is the purpose of living water. Selah!

Zechariah 14:8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from NT church in this present age; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of the NT church in this present age: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.
11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but the NT church shall be safely inhabited.

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You got it all wrong. Jerusalem is a congregation of Israel which the BODY of Christ represents. This is where living water COMES FROM. The Lord Jesus Christ "IS" the river of life and the foundation of living waters, and of course the Lord's people are his representatives:

Jer 2:13 For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters, and hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water.

God "is" the fountain of waters and in representing Him as his messengers, we, the church, would naturally be signified as that on earth, just as He is the spiritual Holy City Jerusalem, and we are the spiritual Holy City Jerusalem. Just as we are signified as the body of Christ, as Sons of God, and as Israel. Again in Jeremiah 2:13, God again refers to himself as the "fountain of living waters" and in Isaiah as the "river" opened in High places.

Zechariah 13:1

• "In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness."

Isaiah 41:17-18

• "When the poor and needy seek water, and there is none, and their tongue faileth for thirst, I the LORD will hear them, I the God of Israel will not forsake them.
• I will open rivers in high places, and fountains in the midst of the valleys: I will make the wilderness a pool of water, and the dry land springs of water."

Here we see God using the same rivers and fountains of waters as a synonym for the church that is established with the coming of Christ, that the poor and needy shall come to drink of the waters of life. This is HOW God has brought the nations (unsaved people) into the city where they can live safely in Christ!

that living waters shall go out from NT church in this present age; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea---Yet, the NT church in this present age has no location, no boundaries, but Jerusalem would in this age and and in the next age.

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No, you are really confused. Living waters comes from Christ through the church that went into the world. This is talking about HIm going forth to Jew and Gentile. The former and hinder pertains to the "first and the last" that Christ references in His sermons, as it relates to SALVATION first to the Jews and also to the Gentiles. The hebrew word, "former" illustrating the Jews being the former or first of the sea, and the word "hinider" being those who come AFTER or behind. In other words, the last. The living waters now go out to all the world, first the Jew and the Gentile.

You are wrong to look at the map and think of a literal city or country with boundaries. This is not how God's Kingdom operates in the world!

As to verse 11, that is clearly meaning that about Jerusalem for forever, that it shall be safely inhabited.

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Well duh, Spiritual Israel, is forever. Those who are secured in Christ are forever. This is spiritual New Jerusalem. Not a physical city on Earth.

And the fact there are compass directions involved, this makes the new Jerusalem a literal place that has a literal location in the earth.

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I think you really need to study what God means by North, South, East and West in Scripture first. Forget compass. Forget National Geography. And go find out what God talked about in Scripture.

Revelation 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

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LOL! This just proved my point. The Living Water comes from Christ Himself for He is the Tree of Life Himself! Not some literal trees or H20. Do you even know what the number 12 represents in Scripture? As in 12 tribes, 12 gates, 12 foundations, 12 apostles, 12 trees, 12 pearls, 12 angels, 12 thousand of each tribe of Israel, etc? The number 12 has spiritual signification! Research on that first before making foolish assumptions that everything must be literal!

Why can't verse 1 be meaning the living waters meant in Zechariah 14:8? Why can't verse 2 be meaning what is trying to be accomplished in Zechariah 14:16-19, and that is the healing of the nations? If the NJ is geographically located, and that there are also nations, and that those living in the nations are obviously not living inside of the city if they are to come up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles, maybe by not coming up they are losing out on the benefits of being healed?

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If you kept asking "why" far too may time, it shows that you do not know what you are looking for in Scripture. The answer is right there in Scripture but you can't find it because you do not have the spirit to see it.

Why would any of this have to involve animal sacrificing, as Amils insist, if this is meaning a time post the 2nd coming? What does that have to do with anything? Does anyone get the impression, that from Revelation 21-22, that any of that might involve animal sacrificing?

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You do not know? You do not understand? Not surprised why you are asking many questions.

Zechariah 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

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Fulfilled, in case you did not bother to double-check with Scripture.

Eph 4:4-6
(4) There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
(5) One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
(6) One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Enough said.

Spiritual Jew said:

Therefore, if Zechariah 14 is speaking of ANY time after Christ's death and resurrection then the reference to observing the feast of tabernacles and making animal sacrifices (Zech 14:18-21) must be figurative rather than literal.

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It is already figurative, today. No one sacrifices animals for the feast of the tabernacles. Any animal sacrifices stopped at the Cross. Not to mention, that is not even what the feast of the Tabernacles is about. Animal sacrifices cannot even be figurative, if they do not exist to begin with. This argument is the most nonsensical part of Zechariah 14. It is a strawman to argue the timing, and just because some claim it is figurative does not mean it happens now, after the Second Coming, nor in the NHNE. Celebration of the feast of the Tabernacles does not have to have anything to do with animal sacrifices one iota.

Tell me how a nation not going up to Jerusalem and rain withheld can be figurative? Is that not taking a literal feast of Tabernacles, and turning this celebration into something it is not? Why would not coming to Jerusalem be considered a sin? Other than it will be a law, that can be broken. It is a law of remembering, not even a law of obedience. The Ethiopian that Philip was a witness to, would be a NT example of a Nation sending a representative to Jerusalem for such a feast, and it was a regular thing it seems since Solomon at least. But where did the Lord of the earth hold all nations equally to such a command. This cannot be the NHNE, because all former things, including the Law of Moses will be removed from human memory. Revelation 21:4

4 He will wipe away every tear from their eyes. There will no longer be any death; and there will no longer be any mourning, crying or pain; because the old order has passed away.”

Revelation 22:3

3 no longer will there be any curses. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will worship him.

Premil do not make up a period to get this passage to work. John gave us a natural time period without changing any words, without having to turn it all into a figurative non-existing thing. And where nations, curses, and physical Jerusalem has not been changed to some new reality. Yes the Day with the Lord will be strange to us. We are Adam's flesh and blood with a sin nature and the consequences of sin. That fact is a poor reason to deny God as a Sovereign God to do as God pleases. God claims both in Zechariah 14 and Revelation 20, He is still in control of His creation and can allow sin or take sin away. The feast of Tabernacles is not about sin, but unbelief. The Israelites coming out of Egypt did not trust God.

Trust issues and sin are related, but not exactly the same thing. If one accepts the Law was just a shadow of Faith and not a means of Atonement, the difference should be obvious. Sin is the consequences of not having Faith or Trust in God. This is the result of knowing Good and knowing evil as well. Sin is now in the very thought stage. There is no work or physical penance to remove our thoughts. We are sinners defined by our very thoughts, not our actions. God can remove the knowledge of good and evil just as easily as He can remove sin and death by sin. This is why God starts the 1000 years with resurrected bodies. There is the removal of sin and even the knowledge of good and evil to some extent. The curse of famine is still a result of not observing the feast of Tabernacles by any nation, Egypt just being an example. This remnant Zechariah 14:16

16 Finally, everyone remaining from all the nations that came to attack Yerushalayim will go up every year to worship the king, Adonai-Tzva’ot, and to keep the festival of Sukkot.

This remnant are not living people. They are the sheep and wheat, and those beheaded, whose souls are harvested by the Angels and they are resurrected in Revelation 20:4. They are not changed like the church is at the 6th Seal while alive. They are harvested and removed prior to the battle of Armageddon which is solely for those 10 king political entities who align with Satan for 42 months as pointed out in Revelation 13.

Zechariah 14 is more in line with the 4th and 6th Seal events, and the follow up harvest, than a battle of Armageddon scenario wrapping up only dead humanity with the mark, who are not even in the Lamb's book of life. The harvest happens prior to the 7th Trumpet which is a celebration at the end of the harvest. There is not really anything at all in Zechariah 14 about the dragon, FP, or image, as if they do not even exist. So those 42 months are not addressed at all in Zechariah 14. It would be the war in the 4th Seal event if any war at all.

The church is changed and removed first. The church, at least not as the church, does not go to war with Jerusalem. Now if Christians are sent from any country, when that attack happens, will they cease being a Christian? Will they quit as enlisted soldiers, if they know before hand what is about to happen? God left those details out, and we will not even know until the hour it happens. That could be another reason Zechariah 14 does not seem applicable to this moment in time. Facing such truths is not comfortable. But to say this confrontation and it's aftermath happened in the 1st century is a leap of Faith. There was no historical record of the Lord ruling over all the nations in Jerusalem where sin has been eradicated. Only in theology and many peoples thought processes, where sin is also rampant.

BABerean2 said:

Correct.

What happens when His sinless heel touches the earth?

It produces the planet destroying earthquake found in Revelation 16.
How powerful is an earthquake that destroys the mountains?

See 2 Peter 3:10-13.

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Is there a difference in obliterating all mountains and splitting one, the Mount of Olives, in half? Could you explain such a difference and claim it is the same event without changing any words or spiritualizing the event? Would not the Mount of Olives no longer exist, instead of being split in two? How can being split in two be symbolism for not existing at all?

Zechariah 14:4
On that day his feet will stand
on the Mount of Olives,
which lies to the east of Yerushalayim;
and the Mount of Olives will be split in half
from east to west, to make a huge valley.
Half of the mountain will move toward the north,
and half of it toward the south.

Revelation 16:20
20 Every island fled, and no mountains were to be found.

sovereigngrace said:

Where in Zechariah 14 is a thousand years mentioned?

Where in Zechariah 14 is the new earth mentioned?

Where in Zechariah 14 are the glorified saints mentioned?

Where in Zechariah 14 is Jesus shown to be on earth?

Where in Zechariah 14 is the binding of Satan?

Where in Zechariah 14 are the 2 resurrections/judgments?

Where in Zechariah 14 is the release of Satan and an unparalleled global uprising 1,000 years after the second coming?

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Are you symbolizing them out of existence in your mind? Zechariah 14 is not about the new earth. Zechariah 14 is not about glorified saints. Zechariah 14 is not about Satan. Well since it claims the feet of Jesus stands on the Mount of Olives...... are you saying the Gospels where it claims Jesus was on the Mount of Olives never happened? It was just symbolism of Christ in our temple body? Zechariah 14 is not about judgments but a change in how things on earth happen.

Where does Zechariah 14 prophecy there will be an eschatology called amillennialism, and it is the only truth of the last days? Now if Zechariah had mentioned that symbolism as fact, we could accept it as something to consider. The lack of complete disclosure is not proof of any point made by modern posters.

Fullness of the Gentiles said:

Because of the kind of replies and tone of those replies you get here I sometimes wonder how many Christians are actually interested in God's theology? They seem to want to defend man's theology to the death and are not interested in whether or not their man-made theology is God's theology

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They do go out of the way to apply it to every day life. Do they actually live to the fullness of even OT applications, or is it just for mental exercises? How does one go up mentally to Jerusalem? It would seem that those prior to the Cross took everything literal and physical and did what they could because the physical was their everyday life. That is why when the church is removed, it is hard for those who only spiritualize life, to see the physical has having any meaning. Sin was not supposed to be the entire physical reality, yet some cannot see physical reality without sin.

Spiritual Jew said:

Jesus said His kingdom does not come with observation and is not of this world and He never said that His kingdom would ever come with observation or be of this world. He will deliver His kingdom to the Father when He comes (Matt 13:36-43, 1 Cor 15:22-24) and the kingdom will then be on the new earth.

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And this is your assumption that you have the free will to interpret how you wish.

Revelation 20 claims they do reign on earth, because that is the topic. Satan is no longer free to roam the earth. A physical bodily resurrection of the first type, incorruptible happens here on earth. There is no glorification of these bodies, so it references earth. When Satan is loosed, it is on the earth. The earth army marches toward where those who reign are, and they are reigning with Christ in Jerusalem on earth. This is not a dreamt up assumption. It is the whole topic of this 1000 years. Unless you take literal words and change them into some dreamt up symbolism, those reading the text are not imagining the topic, time, or place. It is those who spiritualize it who are dreaming, and just making stuff up, even if they can pull verses out of context to prove a point. Then they make up nonsense questions to make people doubt God's Word. Satan did that in the Garden of Eden to deceive Eve. How are we not to view such deceptive post in the same manner as questioning God's Word?

Spiritual Jew said:

If you take Zechariah 14:17-21 literally then it has to be referring to animal sacrifices being performed because a major part of observing the feast of tabernacles involved performing animal sacrifices. Read Leviticus 23:33-38. Also, verse 21 specifically mentions the use of pots and sacrifices, which would clearly be a reference to animal sacrifices if it's meant to be taken literally.

It seems to me that you take all of Zechariah 14 literally. Is that true or do you see some of it as being figurative?

What we emphasize is that Jesus is already king over all the earth because scripture says so. Premil doesn't seem to want to acknowledge that.

Matthew 28:16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them. 17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. 18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Revelation 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, 6 and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.

Ephesians 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, 20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: 22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, 23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

Do you believe that Jesus currently has all power and authority in heaven and in earth as He said Himself?

Do you believe that Jesus Christ is currently "the ruler of the kings of the earth", as John said He is?

Do you believe that Jesus currently has authority "far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named" as Paul said He does? Did God the Father put all things under Christ's feet as Paul said He did?

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Is it about sacrifice or animal sacrifices? Why do you place all the emphasis on the burnt offerings that are freewill in nature? People still need to eat, no? None of this has anything to do with Atonement or sin.

It is not that Premils think Christ lacks all physical authority over the Nations. It is the fact current Nations themselves do not recognize that authority. They are still deceived by Satan and have freedom to do as they please without answering to Christ in any physical way, or spiritual, for that matter. The wages of sin which is death is still reigning from Adam until now.

DavidPT said:

I wouldn't even know where to begin in order to try and address what you submitted here. But that's what I get for suggesting that you take us through Zechariah 14 and show us how it really should be understood. You may have taken us somewhat through that chapter, but you failed to show us how it really should be understood since you flat out ignored any details in the text, plus anything involving chronology.

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Your literal interpretation is your prerogative of course. But seventh day Adventists "believe" that Ellen G. White was a prophet of visions also, but that doesn't make it true does it? My point being, what we believe as Christians "must" be prescribed by the Bible, not by our church tradition, supposition, speculation, assumptions, or your favorite premillennialism teachers.

Allow me to explain something here for a moment, for example, we all can believe Ezekiel 47 was speaking of physical buildings, fish, rivers, whatever, if we like--but physical buildings are temporal, and only Christ is the eternal refuge or retreat. The Biblical fact is, Christ "IS" the sanctuary. Thus, the living waters will come from Him, the "ONLY" eternal Sanctuary. As it is written:

Ezekiel 37:26-28

• "Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
• My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
• And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore."

Christ is the "only" eternal Sanctuary, not a pile of bricks in the middle east that you are dreaming of. Defining the prophesied sanctuary by the Bible, we understand that it is the Lord Himself, and those of us who are in Christ. Indeed when speaking of the body of Christ, this passage is noted.

2nd Corinthians 6:16

• "And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people."

THIS is the tabernacle dwelling among men forever, and it's clearly not a pile of physical stones with Benjamin's gate or corner gate. It's a building made up of spiritual stones- - which is people! The people of His Congregation! Defining the living waters by the Bible, we understand that it is the salvation provided by Christ Himself, and sent forth by His church, not H20 flowing from a physical creek in the physical nation of Israel. Physical Sanctuary and water just don't agree with the "whole" of scripture, and must therefore be rejected.

Psalms 119:50

• "This is my comfort in my affliction: for thy word hath quickened me."

The Word of God, "IS" the living waters that bring life. It is the living waters from the Lord's Sanctuary. The truth is, Premillennialism follows the very same errors that Judaism did by looking to the physical and temporal symbols God used instead of the eternal realities they represented! They wanted a physical King ruling from physical Jerusalem to defeat the physical Romans--and as a result, they missed the reality of the TRUE, which the physical shadows merely represented. They looked for a physical earthly hero and deliverer who would lead them in battle, and as a result rejected the Spiritual deliverer, Christ Jesus. They set their heart on the physical things of this earth, instead of the things above. And unfortunately, Premillennialism has fallen into the exact same snare not realizing that when we rise in Christ, we are not of this world. Not of the Middle East with a temple building in Jeruaslem! We are the true Jews are strangers and pilgrims on this earth, just passing through. Their true home is from above, not in a patch of dirt in the middle east.

Colossians 3:1

• "If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
• Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth."

National Israel wanted a worldly King because they so set their affections and eyes upon this world that they couldn't see the nature of the true Kingdom of Israel.

Likewise, with Zechariah 14:8-11, Do you really think God was prophesying through Zechariah about a physical plain with physical gates unto king's winepresses? Didn't Zechariah 14 tells you that it is about the fall of Old Testament congregation (unfaithful Jews) and in three days, Christ will rebuild it and established His Kingdom upon it, poured with His Living Waters after the Cross? Zechariah 14:10-11 is talking about the rebuilding of the tabernacle that is fallen and is now filled with men where they dwell safely in Christ? If you do not see this way, you, premillennialists are as blind as Judaism.

sovereigngrace said:

You are simply expressing opinion. What is your evidence for believing otherwise?

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Good grief. I gave you Matt 24 as an example. Your accusation is dishonest.

Another example of this is

Act 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
Act 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

This was after the resurrection of Jesus and before his ascension. Where did the disciples get their information about the kingdom being restored to Israel? The Old Testament, of course; and, somehow, Jesus did not tell them they were mistaken, it was never going to happen.

He said, "Only The Father knows when."

That's not an opinion, its Scripture, and its Jesus.

Spiritual Jew said:

What is your interpretation of Zechariah 14:17-21, which, if taken literally, would suggest the reinstitution of old covenant animal sacrifices?

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I think you may have to come up with more than a suggestion. Since the eternal sacrifice has already been offered is there really a need to reinstitute animal sacrifices? It appears logical to assume that the Feast of Tabernacles will take on its heavenly reality rather than its earthly typology.

Spiritual Jew said:

You are confusing Christ's reign with the time when He hands over His kingdom to the Father (Matt 13:36-43, 1 Cor 15:22-24). When Christ returns He will destroy all of His enemies (1 Cor 15:22-28, 1 Thess 4:14-5:6, 2 Thess 1:7-10, Matt 24:35-39, 2 Peter 3:3-13, Rev 19:18, Rev 20:9), which would not leave any mortals for Him to rule over on the earth.

He will deliver His kingdom, which we are in now (Col 1:13, Rev 1:5-6, 1 Peter 2:1-9), to the Father when He returns and we will inherit the eternal new heavens and new earth at that time.

Is there some reason why you didn't answer my simple questions? Can you please answer them? A yes or no answer for each of them would suffice.

Matthew 28:16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them. 17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. 18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Revelation 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, 6 and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.

Ephesians 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, 20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: 22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, 23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

Do you believe that Jesus currently has all power and authority in heaven and in earth as He said Himself?

Do you believe that Jesus Christ is currently "the ruler of the kings of the earth", as John said He is?

Do you believe that Jesus currently has authority "far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named" as Paul said He does? Did God the Father put all things under Christ's feet as Paul said He did?

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Hi in Rev 5 when the Lamb took the seals the group in heaven worshiped Jesus and noted that He was worthy to take the scrolls and open the seals for He had redeemed them by His blood out of every tribe tongue kindred and nation and that they would reign with Him on the earth. The angels proclaim that the kingdoms of this earth have become the kingdoms of the LORD and His Christ and He shall reign forever. Hebrews notes You have put all things in subjection under his feet.”[fn]
For in that He put all in subjection under him, He left nothing that is not put under him. But now we do not yet see all things put under him.

also 10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord and in the power of His might. 11 Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. 12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age,[fn] against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. 13 Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

Now to be direct with your questions. #1 Jesus is God and never did not have this authority. He noted He could have called legions of angels and no one (Pilate) could have authority unless it had been granted. So Jesus having this authority is different than exercising that authority, so yes is the answer.

#2 no most of the rulers of this earth are of their father the devil and in the millennium faithful Resurrected saints will be ruling and reigning with him. If you want to consider that He is LORD of everything in a permissive sense He has authority over the current wicked lot if rulers and they will be judged by him then in that sense it could be yes.

#3 This is where the before and after picture is hammered home and the verse in Ephesians notes everything is subject to Him but we do not yet see things subject to him. When the kingdom is transferred Satan is bound. How can we wrestle against powers and principalities if they are bound now? We see in Rev that the nations which were deceived will no longer be deceived until the 1000 years is over. The rod of iron mentioned is talking about the child who was caught up to heaven who will, future strike the nations with the rod and that is when Jesus comes in the day of vengeance, Zech 14, Joel 3, Dan 7 Jer 30 31. It is when Jesus takes the throne of David and as Zech 14 notes those nations which are left must worship the king, now if they are worshiping the king the king is the LORD.

I showed how hand in glove the prophecy of Luke one shows this before and after picture and indeed God does keep his oath to the fathers and Israel is delivered.
Read Isaiah 60 and 61 you see clearly the before and after and it is the day of vengeance that accomplishes all these things and a distinction between Jew and Gentile still exists.

sovereigngrace said:

Yes you have. You are totally negating the cross-work. Amils all believe that the cross was the final sacrifice for sin. This is a major division with Premil.

You have proved nothing apart from the fact you have no biblical grounds to support your promotion of blood sacrifices for sin in the future. You have nothing! You misinterpret and misapply repeated OT Scripture. Nowhere. It is an attack upon Christ and His all-sufficient atoning work. It is forbidden by repeated NT Scripture.

John 1:29 records: “John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.”

Hebrews 9:26 confirms: “now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.”

1 John 3:5 confirms: “And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.”

Hebrews 10:18 says, “there is no more offering for sin.”

Hebrews 10:26 says, “there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins.”

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The 7th Trumpet is the completion of Adam's sin and punishment for Adam's sin. No more sin nature after the 7th Trumpet. Revelation 10:5-7

5 Then the angel I saw standing on the sea and on the land lifted his right hand toward heaven
6 and swore by the One who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and what is in it, earth and what is in it, and the sea and what is in it: “There will be no more delay;
7 on the contrary, in the days of the sound from the seventh angel when he sounds his shofar, the hidden plan of God will be brought to completion, the Good News as he proclaimed it to his servants the prophets.”

The hidden plan is the 6000 years of Adam's sin nature and sin present in the world. It is finished at that point, during Christ the Lamb present on the earth after the Second Coming.