A little season

DavidPT said:

I don't disagree that believers have always been persecuted and martyred, but I do disagree that they have always been persecuted and martyred via the beast that is yet to ascend out of the pit

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I agree with that statement. IMO it's a very important statement. It reminds us all, and it's a fact that is frequently not merely overlooked, but flatly and completely ignored by Christians with an agenda that has more to do with upholding a particular theological and/or eschatological persuasion than admitting the truth regarding many facts, such as what you pointed out above.

Spiritual Jew said:

Now, for you to understand how I came to this conclusion, I need you to first tell me your understanding of the 42 months and 1260 days mentioned in Revelation 11:2-3. Do you see the reference to the 42 months and 1260 days in Revelation 11:2-3 as being the same time period as the 42 months mentioned in Revelation 13:5? I do. If that is the case then when we look at Revelation 11:7 we can see that the beast does not ascend out of the abyss until AFTER the 1260 day testimony of the two witnesses comes to an end. And then it mentions a 3.5 day time period after that (Rev 11:9). I equate that with Satan's little season rather than the 42 months/1260 days.

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Revelation 13:11

11 Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth. It had two horns like those of a lamb, but it spoke like a dragon.

Revelation 11:7

7 When they finish their witnessing, the beast coming up out of the Abyss will fight against them, overcome them and kill them.

This does not say the beast comes out of the pit to kill them. It says the beast that comes out of the pit. Meaning Satan comes and goes out of his home whether the door is opened or not.

You do not think Satan needs the door opened to leave do you? The door opening could be with all other indications, his angels that have been bound since the Flood are those beast that come out of the pit in the 5th Trumpet. Then later in the 7th Trumpet they are escorted out of heaven again, the second time since the Flood.

This would mean they have been locked up from the Flood until the 5th Trumpet themselves, even though Satan has never been bound. They could not have been cast out of heaven at the Cross, but only at the 7th Trumpet after being let free in the 5th Trumpet. They were loose during the 7 Thunders, and we do not know what the Thunders do, nor any lengths. Any one who turns literal time into figurative guesses, and tries to guess what figurative time means literally, wants Revelation to fit their theology. They do not let Scripture interpret Scripture. Revelation 9:1-3

The fifth angel sounded his shofar; and I saw a star that had fallen out of heaven onto the earth, and he was given the key to the shaft leading down to the Abyss.
2 He opened the shaft of the Abyss, and there went up smoke from the shaft like the smoke of a huge furnace; the sun was darkened, and the sky too, by the smoke from the shaft.
3 Then out of the smoke onto the earth came locusts, and they were given power like the power scorpions have on earth.

Satan has not ever been bound in the pit, and now he is allowed to free his angels from the pit.

There are two times a key and a pit are mentioned in Revelation. Satan opens the pit, and then Satan himself is locked back into the pit and it is closed behind him. This does not mean Satan is prevented from coming and going into sheol at will. He can do that constantly. What these two events show is that his angels are now free to leave, and Satan will be bound for a literal 1000 years, like his angels were since the Flood. If you accept Satan's angels have been bound since the Flood, then it would be consistent to accept Satan will also be bound for a future 1000 years. Jude 1:6

6 And the angels that did not keep within their original authority, but abandoned their proper sphere, he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for the Judgment of the Great Day.

The 5th Trumpet Judgment on the Great Day. The Second Coming when God and the Lamb are here to collect the final harvest. The Second Coming has already happened and started when the 5th Trumpet event happens. The Second Coming event starts prior to the opening of the pit. The Second Coming event ends with Satan bound in the pit.

Fullness of the Gentiles said:

You may see different beasts controlled by Satan being spoken of in the Revelation, but I only see one. IMO (and for the reasons given above) Revelation 13 telling us it will ascend out of the sea is just giving us more information about the same beast that Revelation 17 says will ascend out of the abyss. So IMO opinion chapter 13 tells us that it will rise from out of the Gentile nations and be controlled by Satan and chapter 17 tells us it will ascend from out of the abyss. One and the same beast that will be controlled by Satan. Same beast, same ten kings, some info on it given in chapter 13 and some more info given on it in chapter 17, which also introduces another actor in the final scene - the harlot city.

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One issue: Revelation 16:13-14

13 And I saw three unclean spirits that looked like frogs; they came from the mouth of the dragon, from the mouth of the beast and from the mouth of the false prophet.
14 They are miracle-working demonic spirits which go out to the kings of the whole inhabited world to assemble them for the War of the Great Day.

How can the beast with an unclean spirit call itself? The unclean spirits call the kings of the earth together to Armageddon.

In chapter 13, the FP is the spokesman of this world beast. I think the beast in chapter 16 is the image brought to life by Satan.

Spiritual Jew said:

I think one big key in understanding all of this is identifying the beast. You're saying a lot of things about the beast here, but never indicating your understanding of the beast. So, what do you believe is the identity of the beast? What does it mean when it says "the beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition" (Revelation 17:8)?

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Revelation 13:3

3 One of the heads of the beast appeared to have received a fatal wound, but its fatal wound was healed, and the whole earth followed after the beast in amazement.

Dying physically is going into sheol. This has to be how John relates Daniel's beast in Daniel 11 to the Second Coming event. A beast that was between Daniel and Christ, who was not. Has been dead for thousands of years, is somehow back among the living who are now in Amazement over this fact. Is ascending out of the pit literal? No, it is in the symbolic terms of the beast that was, was not, but yet now is again. It would be someone out of sheol (of Satan) as opposed to someone from God.

John in chapter 13, just points out a mortal wound that is seemingly healed as if no time nor death had even happened. That is how so many have misinterpreted an AC. They falsely assume a future leader will be born and an assassination attempt was made. NO! This will be a false prophet that some will think lived before Christ and has returned after thousands of years. Daniel's beast now connected to John's future world government beast. It is the FP connection, not a new person born recently, who cannot be associated with the king in Daniel 11.

The beast that was, was Daniel's beast. It was not again, until the Second Coming. Now is again as the FP. Will be cast into the Lake of Fire with the beast image: Revelation 19:20

20 But the beast was taken captive, and with it the false prophet who, in its presence, had done the miracles which he had used to deceive those who had received the mark of the beast and those who had worshipped his image. The beast and the false prophet were both thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur.

All the kings and dead men (the beast), along with the FP and image (beast) were cast directly into the Lake of Fire. Those with the mark were either in Death, or at the battle of Armageddon cast directly into the Lake of Fire prior to the 1000 years.

Timtofly said:

Revelation 13:11

11 Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth. It had two horns like those of a lamb, but it spoke like a dragon.

Revelation 11:7

7 When they finish their witnessing, the beast coming up out of the Abyss will fight against them, overcome them and kill them.

This does not say the beast comes out of the pit to kill them. It says the beast that comes out of the pit. Meaning Satan comes and goes out of his home whether the door is opened or not.

You do not think Satan needs the door opened to leave do you?

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You are coming across here as if you are saying Satan being bound in the abyss or not makes no difference. If that was the case then Revelation 20's description of him being bound and later being loosed would be pointless.

Spiritual Jew said:

Being in the pit has to do with restraint rather than being chained down and rendered completely immobile. Being out of the pit relates to being unrestrained.

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This cannot be. The Holy Spirit has been the restrainer since Adam. The restrainer is a he, not the phenomenon of being bound in the pit. 2 Thessalonians 2:11-13

11 This is why God is causing them to go astray, so that they will believe the Lie.
12 The result will be that all who have not believed the truth, but have taken their pleasure in wickedness, will be condemned.

13 But we have to keep thanking God for you always, brothers whom the Lord loves, because God chose you as firstfruits for deliverance by giving you the holiness that has its origin in the Spirit and the faithfulness that has its origin in the truth.

The contrast is between those who follow after the Holy Spirit as opposed to those who follow after Satan. The deceived do no adhere to a belief "in the pit". They follow Satan no matter where Satan is. The restraining can only be the Holy Spirit at work. The Holy Spirit can only work in those humans who let Him work all over the earth.

Timtofly said:

This cannot be. The Holy Spirit has been the restrainer since Adam. The restrainer is a he, not the phenomenon of being bound in the pit. 2 Thessalonians 2:11-13

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Goodness gracious. I did not say otherwise. I know that it is the influence of the Holy Spirit that restrains wickedness.

I was not saying the abyss/bottomless pit is the restrainer. I'm saying that when it talks about the dragon or the beast being in the abyss/bottomless pit it means they are restrained. The dragon and beast are figurative terms so it's speaking figuratively about what those figurative terms represent (Satan, in the case of the dragon) being spiritually restrained. You have a lot of trouble comprehending what other people say, for whatever reason.

Spiritual Jew said:

Goodness gracious. I did not say otherwise. I was not saying the abyss/bottomless pit is the restrainer. I'm saying that when it talks about the dragon or the beast being in the abyss/bottomless pit it means they are restrained. You have a lot of trouble comprehending what other people say, for whatever reason.

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No. That is not the issue. He gets it. He repeatedly tries to distort what Amils say because he has no answer to Amil.

sovereigngrace said:

No. That is not the issue. He gets it. He repeatedly tries to distort what Amils say because he has no answer to Amil.

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You're probably right. I'm probably giving him too much benefit of the doubt. How else to explain him misrepresenting Amils constantly than that he's doing it on purpose?

Timtofly said:

One issue: Revelation 16:13-14

13 And I saw three unclean spirits that looked like frogs; they came from the mouth of the dragon, from the mouth of the beast and from the mouth of the false prophet.
14 They are miracle-working demonic spirits which go out to the kings of the whole inhabited world to assemble them for the War of the Great Day.

How can the beast with an unclean spirit call itself? The unclean spirits call the kings of the earth together to Armageddon.

In chapter 13, the FP is the spokesman of this world beast. I think the beast in chapter 16 is the image brought to life by Satan.

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Timtofly said:

One issue: Revelation 16:13-14
In chapter 13, the FP is the spokesman of this world beast. I think the beast in chapter 16 is the image brought to life by Satan.

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Good thinking, and possibly. But the credit for giving the image of the beast a spirit and causing the image of the beast to speak is given in Revelation 13:15 to the False Prophet:

"And there was given to it to give a spirit to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast might both speak, and might cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed."

Also bear in mind that it's "the kings of the whole inhabited world" that are being called "to assemble them for the War of the Great Day." Remember that the beast has authority over all peoples, nations and tongues - which would include their kings who are being called to the battle of Armageddon.

DavidPT said:

Since I haven't seen where Fullness of the Gentiles has addressed this yet, in the meantime I will show how I might answer what you asked, which may or may not be the same way Fullness of the Gentiles might answer it.

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I'm only interested in what you think at this point.

Which BTW, the last portion of this post would be in answer to what you asked me in #97 which I haven't replied to yet, meaning when you asked, "Do you have any evidence to show that the beast ascending from the sea is equivalent to the beast ascending from the abyss/bottomless pit?"

Revelation 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Revelation 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

Verse 3 does not parallel the time of verse 2. Verse 7 proves that since that is meaning after the time of verse 3, not during it. Verse 2 and verse 9 are referring to the same period of time and is meaning the 42 months in Revelation 13:5.

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I'm not understanding your reasoning, but it seems like you're saying you believe the 1,260 days (verse 3) is a different time period than the 42 months (verse 2)? If so, when do you think the 1,260 days occurs in relation to the 42 months?

As to Revelation 13:1 and what you asked me in #97.

Genesis 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.

Years ago I was pretty much focused on mainly the first 10 or 11 chapters in the book of Genesis for the longest time. The reason was because I was debating Shepherd Chapel students at the time over their serpent seed doctrine. During that time I noticed something in Genesis 1, maybe something relevant to something else, maybe not.

and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

According to Strong's, 'deep' is---thowm
teh-home'
or thom {teh-home'}; (usually feminine) from 'huwm' (1949); an abyss (as a surging mass of water), especially the deep (the main sea or the subterranean water-supply):--deep (place), depth.

And interestingly enough, the fact this abyss involves waters, we see in verse 10 above that God called these waters, seas.

In Revelation 13:1 it indicates a beast rises out of the sea, where we are also told that this same beast rises out of the abyss. The fact, in the book of Revelation sea can mean a number of different things, maybe in Revelation 13:1, and in light of Genesis 1:2 and verse 10, plus Revelation 11:7 and Revelation 17:8, in this particular context what is meant by sea in Revelation 13:1 is the abyss.

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But, Genesis 1 is talking about the literal sea, not a figurative sea. The abyss is not the literal sea. Also, why wouldn't John have just said the beast came up out of the abyss/pit there if that's what he was referring to? He called it the abyss/pit every other time he was referring to that, so why "the sea" in Revelation 13? I believe it's because "the sea" represents something different than the abyss/bottomless pit.

Something else to consider is the following in the OT.

Isaiah 27:1 In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea.

Per Revelation 13:1, is it not a dragon that is rising out of the sea?

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That's a good reference, but that verse doesn't identify the sea for us. I appreciate that you're trying to interpret scripture with scripture there, though.

The abyss/pit, to me, clearly represents the spiritual realm outside of heaven which has access to the earth, but not heaven. It's not a literal prison or anything like that. It's described as a prison only figuratively because it shuts out Satan and his angels from heaven and restrains their power.

I personally think it makes more sense to relate "the sea" of that verse to the "many waters" of this verse:

Rev 17:1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great harlot that sitteth upon many waters:

The great harlot also sits upon the beast (Rev 17:3). John later explained what the "many waters" represent here:

Rev 17:15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the harlot sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

So, Revelation 13:1 would be saying that the beast rises to power over the sea of humanity (peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues) and that's why it talks about everyone whose name is not written in the book of life worshiping the beast. To me, it's very similar to how Jesus talked about how the world and those who are of the world hate Christians but love their own (John 15:16-19).

DavidPT said:

Since I haven't seen where Fullness of the Gentiles has addressed this yet, in the meantime I will show how I might answer what you asked, which may or may not be the same way Fullness of the Gentiles might answer it.

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Here's the gist of what I believe regarding Revelation 13 and 17's beasts:

Bearing in mind that the Bible is always consistent with its own symbolism, in the Bible we find the following symbols:

Serpent/Dragon: Satan.
Beast: Kingdom/empire/realm of authority, as in Daniel ch. 7.
Crowns: symbols of kingship, authority.
Horns: Kings/those with authority over whole nations of people, as in Daniel ch. 7.
Heads: The seat of a king/Capital cities of kingdoms, as in Daniel ch. 7 and Isaiah 7:8.

In the Revelation, which is packed with symbolism, we see the following:

* Revelation ch. 12's dragon has seven heads and ten horns, and each head has a crown on it.

* In Revelation ch. 17 each of the seven heads of the beast has a king (In Revelation 12 the dragon's seven heads each has a crown on it).

John was told the following about the beast with seven heads and ten horns in Revelation ch. 17:

"And the ten horns which you saw are ten kings, who have received no kingdom yet, but will receive authority as kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and they will give their power and authority to the beast." Revelation 17:12-13.

* In Revelation 13 the dragon gives the beast ascended out of the sea its seat, its power and great authority - and now there are ten crowns on the ten horns.

* Chapter 13 says the beast with its ten horns (which now has ten crowns on its horns) will be controlled by Satan, and chapter 17 says it will ascend from out of the abyss. So truly, this seems to be telling us about the same beast, because the beast that ascends from out of the abyss is controlled by Satan, whom the Revelation elsewhere calls the destroying king of the armies ascended from out of the abyss, and it has ten kings.

The three chapters (chapter 12, 13 & 17) when compared with one another most certainly seem to be talking about the same powers in the world, and one and the same final beast which is spoken about in chapter 13 and 17: These two chapters most certainly seem to be talking about the same ten kings, and correspond with the ten kings of the final kingdom mentioned in the book of Daniel (Daniel ch. 7). Therefore where Revelation 13 tells us that the beast will ascend out of the sea, this is just giving us more information about the same beast that Revelation 17 says will ascend out of the abyss.

Same beast, same ten kings, some info on it given in chapter 13, with some more info given on it in chapter 17.

In the Revelation,

* Chapter 17 says that this beast will rise from the abyss and go to perdition; and
* Chapter 19 says it will be destroyed by Christ, along with its false prophet; and
* Chapter 17 says it will war against the Lamb and the Lamb will overcome it; and
* Chapter 16 says it will gather its armies for Armageddon; and
* Chapter 19 says that after overcoming it, Christ will throw it and its false prophet (mentioned also in chapter 13) into the lake of fire.
* Chapter 13 says that this beast will make war with the saints and overcome them.

Regarding all of this prophetic scripture we are told, both in the book of Daniel chapters 7 & 12, and in the Revelation, that it's talking about the final kingdom in the world, which will consist of 10 kings + 1 king (or perhaps + 1 'kingdom'), because these ten kings will be united in purpose and be of one mind, and will hand over all their power and authority to another king/kingdom.

* Whereas Revelation 17 tells us that the ten kings will hand all their power & authority over to one king/kingdom, Revelation 13 tells us that a different beast (one that will rise from 'the earth') will exercise all the authority and power of the other beast (the one with the ten kings) in its presence, and while the other beast exists in the world.

* Unlike the beast with the ten horns/kings, this other beast (or 'kingdom'?) mentioned in Revelation ch. 13 will have two horns like a lamb, yet it will speak like a dragon, and will cause all those dwelling on the earth to erect an image to the seven-headed beast, and will cause all who will not worship the seven-headed beast or its image to be killed, and we are told that there is a number linked to the name of this seven-headed beast, which can be calculated: The number of this beast's name is the number of man (or of a man), and that number is 666.

DavidPT said:

Revelation 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Revelation 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

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I'm interested to know why you say this below, because I have a different view regarding this:

DavidPT said:

Verse 3 does not parallel the time of verse 2. Verse 7 proves that since that is meaning after the time of verse 3, not during it. Verse 2 and verse 9 are referring to the same period of time and is meaning the 42 months in Revelation 13:5.

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Moses and Aaron were God's two witnesses in Egypt. They brought plagues upon Egypt and caused the waters to turn to blood, etc.

All the while, every time Pharaoh's heart was hardened again, he tightened the screws of his persecution of God's people in Egypt.

I believe this is a type of the end of this Age. It did not happen overnight. Then the destruction of Pharaohs armies = the deliverance of the saints, and they past through the sea. I believe this is a type of the resurrection of the two witnesses of the Revelation and of the dead in Christ which Paul speaks about in Thessalonians.

From what I can see, when the beast ascends out of the abyss, that is when God gives power to His two witnesses, because that is when the end (the 42 months) begins:

Revelation 14
6 "And I saw another angel flying in mid-heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those dwelling on the earth, even to every nation and kindred and tongue and people,
7 saying with a great voice, Fear God and give glory to Him! For the hour of His judgment has come. And worship Him who made the heaven and the earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
8 And another angel followed, saying, The great city, Babylon, has fallen, has fallen; because of the wine of the anger of her fornication; she has made all nations to drink.
9 And a third angel followed them, saying with a great voice, If anyone worships the beast and its image, and receives a mark in his forehead or in his hand,
10 he also will drink of the wine of the anger of God, having been mixed undiluted in the cup of His wrath. And he will be tormented by fire and brimstone before the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb.
11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever. And they have no rest day or night, those who worship the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.
12 Here is the patience of the saints. Here are the ones who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

13 And I heard a voice from Heaven saying to me, Write, Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on. Yes, says the Spirit, they shall rest from their labors, and their works follow them."

Immediately after this we read about the harvest, and then the grapes of wrath.

So I have the period of the two witnesses running parallel to the 42 month reign of the beast when "Pharaoh" (the beast) he is making war against the two witnesses and overcoming them, but God is giving power to His two witnesses who are prophesying, and at the same time bringing plagues upon the earth and casing the water to turn to blood (Revelation 11: 5-6).

The people are celebrating the death of the two witnesses because they tormented those who dwell on the earth (I believe it's with the plagues they brought upon the earth that they tormented them - just as God's two witnesses tormented the Egyptians with their plagues).

So I see the beast ascending out of the abyss at the start of the 42 months and the two witnesses beginning their testimony and being killed by the same beast ascended from the abyss 3.5 days before the last day of the 42 months - with the last day of the 42 months being Christ appearing in the clouds and the resurrection taking place.

I can't see anything in the text of Revelation 11 that suggests that the beast that ascends out of the abyss only ascended out of the abyss just before it martyred the two witnesses.

So that's why I'm interested to know why you say what you say in the part of your post I quoted above.

Fullness of the Gentiles said:

IMO Genesis 3:15; Revelation 12:9, 12 & 17 and Revelation 13:7 makes it clear that the dragon's war against the woman and her seed is an ongoing thing that will only be brought to an end by the Lord's destruction of the beast and binding of Satan.

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I agree. I was just pointing out that the only time frame was Satan's last 42 months as well as the last 42 months incorporated into the sounding of the 7th Trumpet. Satan splits the week of the 7th Trumpet (a week of 8 days from Sunday to Sunday) because Revelation 13 is allowed by God. It is not a prophecy. It is an alternative because the church failed to reap a greater harvest. It is not Biblical to say God is waiting for that last soul to be saved. If that were the case those 1260 days, 42 months, or 3.5 years would not exist at all. The 7th Trumpet would stop at the last Sunday, and that would be it. Satan would still be bound and the Millennium would start per Revelation 14.

Spiritual Jew said:

You are coming across here as if you are saying Satan being bound in the abyss or not makes no difference. If that was the case then Revelation 20's description of him being bound and later being loosed would be pointless.

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Only pointless, because those people are in incorruptible bodies without a sin nature. Like Adam, Satan can only attempt to lie and deceive. Satan could never accuse Adam and Eve of sin prior to sin being in the world. Thus Satan is only, not even allowed to deceive by being totally removed from the scene.

Spiritual Jew said:

Goodness gracious. I did not say otherwise. I know that it is the influence of the Holy Spirit that restrains wickedness.

I was not saying the abyss/bottomless pit is the restrainer. I'm saying that when it talks about the dragon or the beast being in the abyss/bottomless pit it means they are restrained. The dragon and beast are figurative terms so it's speaking figuratively about what those figurative terms represent (Satan, in the case of the dragon) being spiritually restrained. You have a lot of trouble comprehending what other people say, for whatever reason.

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Then you accept the literal binding of Satan in Revelation 20 is totally different than current sin nature. It is your binding of Satan figurative or not that has no effect currently. The nations are still deceived, and sin nature has not been eradicated. The Holy Spirit is restraining Satan from being victorious in our lives, if we follow the Holy Spirit's leading. Christ is our advocate day and night. Satan can accuse us still to none effect. That is all true, but not because Satan is bound figuratively or literally. Satan being bound is a pointless phenomenon in the current state of sin in the world. It will only be a point when those on earth have incorruptible bodies, the first resurrection of Revelation 20:4. Their offspring are born with incorruptible bodies and sin is not in the world, nor a sin nature.

Spiritual Jew said:

You're probably right. I'm probably giving him too much benefit of the doubt. How else to explain him misrepresenting Amils constantly than that he's doing it on purpose?

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I am defending God's Word on purpose. If amil think I am misrepresenting them, it is not me.

Fullness of the Gentiles said:

Good thinking, and possibly. But the credit for giving the image of the beast a spirit and causing the image of the beast to speak is given in Revelation 13:15 to the False Prophet:

"And there was given to it to give a spirit to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast might both speak, and might cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed."

Also bear in mind that it's "the kings of the whole inhabited world" that are being called "to assemble them for the War of the Great Day." Remember that the beast has authority over all peoples, nations and tongues - which would include their kings who are being called to the battle of Armageddon.

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15 It was allowed to put breath into the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast could even speak; and it was allowed to cause anyone who would not worship the image of the beast to be put to death.

For this very reason, Satan is the one coming out of the earth. The abyss to the pit. The first beast was a human, so the only human is what the image represented. It was not an image of Satan. It was an image of the FP. The FP is not the beast. The FP is one of the heads of the beast. So Satan speaks as a dragon and coming out of sheol representative of a pagan Greek God. Pan is the god, Satan is himself in the (image of) instead of an angel of light. This is what Satan is allowed to do:

1) It performs great miracles, even causing fire to come down from heaven onto the earth as people watch.
2) It deceives the people living on earth by the miracles it is allowed to perform in the presence of the beast, and
3) it tells them to make an image honoring the beast that was struck by the sword but came alive again.
4) It was allowed to put breath into the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast could even speak; and
5) it was allowed to cause anyone who would not worship the image of the beast to be put to death. Also
6) it forces everyone — great and small, rich and poor, free and slave — to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead
7) preventing anyone from buying or selling unless he has the mark, that is, the name of the beast or the number of its name.

Why do some versions use excess verbiage for "allowed"? "And there was given to it to give" instead of "it was allowed to"?

Breathing life into it is the same as pneuma (spirit) it was not a spirit it was the air from Satan that brought the image to life. Now you can say this is just an idol of wood or stone or you can say it is an ai robot. Can a spirit change a piece of wood, or would a breath of air be enough to get an artificial lung going to start the flow of artificial blood through an artificial heart to an artificial brain. Which in this day and age makes more sense? Perhaps a thousand years ago, a wood or stone image would make more sense? Maybe even 200 years ago?

If Satan wanted to do everything God ever did and do it better, he could make a different type of image and life, but the image has a name and the name is that of a man.

"the mark, that is, the name of the beast or the number of its name. This is where wisdom is needed; those who understand should count the number of the beast, for it is the number of a person, and its number is 666."

Satan is creating his own Adam. Except this Adam will be a machine that can think on it's own and with a will of it's own that is totally free from needing God one iota. Except God provided all the material from God's creation. Satan is not allowed to create something from nothing.

So Revelation 13:1 does not introduce the FP as the global system. It is from the governmental body from out of humanity, that the necessity of a human prophet or the expert on religious matters arises. The FP is just the beast that was, is not and now is. Nor do I think Antiochus Epiphanies is resurrected. Antiochus Epiphanies was the "beast that was" part. There was no one like him until now, that is the "is not" part. Satan presents a modern human in the "spirit" of Antiochus Epiphanies as the "now is" FP. The prophet part is because of the religious nature of the New Sidekick of Satan. Like this year we were introduced to a health expert, soon there will need to be a spiritual expert to explain the coming new phenomenons to earth.

Also Antiochus Epiphanies himself sacrificed a pig on the alter, making him both political and religious at the same time. I think the prophet part also comes because the FP will come first and prophecy about the coming of Satan himself out of the earth. Although we are not really told when either will show up. It will be before the 7th Trumpet though. Will it be before the 5th Trumpet? Or will the FP start making prophecies at the 4th Seal as an expert on global news channels on these 4 major points about famine, plague, war, and wild animals strangely starting to attack humanity?

While I think all the hype about the AC is even worse than the accusation that some Jesuit "started" a false teaching. It is very plain to see in Revelation there is already a 1000 year period of time in black and white in the letters John sent to 7 1st century churches. The church has had bad theology from the very first theologian to the last. The Bible and Holy Spirit really do not need any extra biblical theology. But being told to study God's Word opens the door to form personal opinion and interpretation into something to study, but the side effects are sometimes worse than no study at all, but just reading God's Word. In order for there to be an AC, Satan first has to present an image that is the Messiah. Then it is just understood. But to present to the lost there is going to be a coming AC, makes no sense. First there is the presentation of a new form of humanity, and this human will "save the world". Nor does John state this "AC thought" ever takes off. John still refers to this now living image as "beast".

So only the first beast can come out of humanity and produce a human. This cannot produce a Satan. Satan is a created being. Humanity can only produce humans, the FP is the only human in this group. Also Satan gives this human all of his power and is the enabler of this human. This cannot be the dragon, or Satan. The only human left out of the dragon (Satan) and the beast, this human image brought to life, can only be the FP.

Only Satan out of the earth, with or without the door open to sheol. God giving Satan the ability to do things, just like Satan was allowed to test Job. God would not just let a human do those things, that Satan has always wanted to do, nor would Satan let another human do those things for him.

Then the image brought to life as an Adam/Messiah seems to be the 3rd, of the 3 entities that have power and control over the world.

DavidPT said:

Verse 3 does not parallel the time of verse 2. Verse 7 proves that since that is meaning after the time of verse 3, not during it. Verse 2 and verse 9 are referring to the same period of time and is meaning the 42 months in Revelation 13:5.

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Why would this not be the same time when Satan and the "lost", the Gentiles have free reign of Jerusalem per Revelation 13:5?

The vinyard, the earth is given to Satan for the last 42 months of sin and death. Why would the Gentiles not do whatever they please?

Nothing is left on earth to stop them, except the 2 witnesses that are continually making it hard for them in Jerusalem. At this point the "court of the temple" would be the whole earth. If indeed there is going to be a heavenly temple adjoining the earth, but perhaps above it and as a place of judgment and observation of the courtyard itself. We are never given the measurement of the temple. That could be because we were given it as the size of the New Jerusalem, it's future rendition in the NHNE.