Zechariah 14 and Premil vs Amil

Spiritual Jew · Dec 18, 2020

Brian Mcnamee said:
Now as to the sacrifice's think about this; have you ever gone to a Seder dinner at Passover? For a Christian it is a powerful experience seeing the witness of Jesus in the feast. Now when Jesus is king the new covenant is still standing so the idea is to see these sacrifices much like we see communion. None the less the chronology of when then kingdom comes clearly has a before and after picture to it and like Dan 7 the son of man who is to be king over all the earth does not come until one is persecuting for a time, times and half a time and this guy called the pompous one is destroyed and given to the flame. Hey that is just like the beast persecuting for 42 months and he is given to the flame. But then the rest of the beast lose their dominion but have their lives prolonged for a season and a time. What is this? Could this be the demonic element losing dominion and never regaining it? The pompous one is in the flame same as the beast but their lives prolonged for a season,(1000) and a time ( to be loosed with Satan to test the world at the end of the 1000 years) is a key note.
Remember in LUKE 1 Jesus is not just taking the throne of David but he is keeping the oaths to the fathers that they should be delivered from their enemies and worship without fear and in holiness all the days of their lives. This is what is coming and Jesus does indeed keep the oaths and the before and after picture is glorious.

I can't make any sense out of anything you said here. Do you, or do you not, believe that animal sacrifices will be reinstituted at some point in the future?

Brian Mcnamee · Dec 18, 2020

DavidPT said:
Do you believe there will be animal sacrifing post the 2nd coming? If yes, how could you possibly see that as a comparison to what you bring up here?

You have a mountain of very specifics that tell the same story of a future event and one idea that hangs you up is the sacrifice. You can ask Jesus but for sure it will not be an effective covering for sin. I mentioned in the previous post about eh Seder meal or Passover and the strong meaning it has from a
Christian perspective. Perhaps these sacrifices and rituals will be like that or communion. At any rate the new covenant itself is wrapped around the day of Jacob's trouble and Israel will enter into the new covenant at the 2nd coming at the end of the day of Jacob's trouble. You see in Jer 31 is linked to chapter 30
1 “At the same time,” says the LORD, “I will be the God of all the families of Israel, and they shall be My people.”
2 Thus says the LORD:
“The people who survived the sword
Found grace in the wilderness—
Israel, when I went to give him rest.”
3 The LORD has appeared of old to me, saying:
“Yes, I have loved you with an everlasting love;
Therefore with lovingkindness I have drawn you.
4 Again I will build you, and you shall be rebuilt,
O virgin of Israel!
You shall again be adorned with your tambourines,
And shall go forth in the dances of those who rejoice.
5 You shall yet plant vines on the mountains of Samaria;
The planters shall plant and eat them as ordinary food.
6 For there shall be a day
When the watchmen will cry on Mount Ephraim,
‘Arise, and let us go up to Zion,
To the LORD our God.’ ”
7 For thus says the LORD:
“Sing with gladness for Jacob,
And shout among the chief of the nations;
Proclaim, give praise, and say,
‘O LORD, save Your people,
The remnant of Israel!’
8 Behold, I will bring them from the north country,
And gather them from the ends of the earth,
Among them the blind and the lame,
The woman with child
And the one who labors with child, together;
A great throng shall return there.
9 They shall come with weeping,
And with supplications I will lead them.
I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters,
In a straight way in which they shall not stumble;
For I am a Father to Israel,

Now when the new covenant was instituted it was rejected by most of Israel and it brought about the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple and Israel was off the map to be called Palestine for centuries. So this was no surprise to God who in the following verses right after the new covenant was promised says Israel will not cease to be a nation in God's eyes and God will not cast of the seed of Israel for all they have done. God in anticipating the long diaspora. Then chapter 31 ends with the end of the day of Jacob's trouble where the city is seen needing to be rebuilt at a time when the valleys are full of dead bodies. This is exactly what is happening in Zech 14, from that time it will be holy and never thrown down again. What a glorious future and it is indeed Luke 1 jesus keeping the oaths and delivering Israel from their enemies and now they will serve with out fear and in Holiness. It is a glorious future and just like Joseph revealing himself to His brothers.

Spiritual Jew · Dec 18, 2020

DavidPT said:
Why would any of this have to involve animal sacrificing, as Amils insist, if this is meaning a time post the 2nd coming? What does that have to do with anything? Does anyone get the impression, that from Revelation 21-22, that any of that might involve animal sacrificing? Granted, still a bit of speculation going on, per this part having to do with Zechariah 14:16-19 and what to do with those verses. But until and if someone can provide a better solution for those verses, all one can do is speculate as to when, where, and how they fit over all in the meantime. One thing that can't be denied, once Zechariah 14:16-19 initially begins to come to pass, it obviously involves more years in order to fulfill this part---shall even go up from year to year. It is ludicrous that that can be fulfilled in a single 24 hour day or less. And if this period of time is meaning post the 2nd coming, it obviously requires more years post the 2nd coming in order to fulfill the part about coming up from year to year.

If you take Zechariah 14:17-21 literally then it has to be referring to animal sacrifices being performed because a major part of observing the feast of tabernacles involved performing animal sacrifices. Read Leviticus 23:33-38. Also, verse 21 specifically mentions the use of pots and sacrifices, which would clearly be a reference to animal sacrifices if it's meant to be taken literally.

It seems to me that you take all of Zechariah 14 literally. Is that true or do you see some of it as being figurative?

Zechariah 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

And then there is this. I simply do not see how that can already be the case before the following is true first.

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Clearly, the 7th trumpet hasn't even sounded yet. Yet, Amils would have us believe that Zechariah 14:9 has already been fulfilled.

What we emphasize is that Jesus is already king over all the earth because scripture says so. Premil doesn't seem to want to acknowledge that.

Matthew 28:16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them. 17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. 18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Revelation 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, 6 and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.

Ephesians 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, 20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: 22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, 23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

Do you believe that Jesus currently has all power and authority in heaven and in earth as He said Himself?

Do you believe that Jesus Christ is currently "the ruler of the kings of the earth", as John said He is?

Do you believe that Jesus currently has authority "far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named" as Paul said He does? Did God the Father put all things under Christ's feet as Paul said He did?

Spiritual Jew · Dec 18, 2020

Brian Mcnamee said:
You have a mountain of very specifics that tell the same story of a future event and one idea that hangs you up is the sacrifice.

That is not something to just gloss over and act as if it's not an important consideration. Why would animal sacrifices ever be resinstituted in light of the fact that Jesus made His "once for all" sacrifice long ago while making the old covenant animal sacrifices obsolete forever in the process?

sovereigngrace · Dec 18, 2020

Brian Mcnamee said:
You see in Rev an angel sound the kingdoms of this earth have become the kingdoms of the LORD and His Chris and He shall rule forever. Now in Rev John was told to write the things he saw chapter 1 the the things that are chapter 2 and 3 and the things to come after this. The kingdom when John wrote Rev was still a future event. So all that prattling that Satan was bound at the cross is nonsense as he was not even bound yet. The things you have right are we are under the new covenant and you stumble over the fact that there are sacrifices in the millennium. Israel is not saved by having a birth rite they are saved when they believe in Jesus. Jesus is the LORD and in Zech 14 we see both the LORD is king over all the earth and that they will say the LORD is one. This is confessing that Jesus is LORD. This kingdom comes on a day very much like Armageddon as we only see from the perspective of Jerusalem. Which is being over run and 1/2 the city taken. The women are being ravished when the LORD comes and kills them quite graphically. The nations which are left must now come and worship the king and keep the feast of tabernacles or they get no rain. This shows continuity of life after the LORD is king.
Now as to the sacrifice's think about this; have you ever gone to a Seder dinner at Passover? For a Christian it is a powerful experience seeing the witness of Jesus in the feast. Now when Jesus is king the new covenant is still standing so the idea is to see these sacrifices much like we see communion. None the less the chronology of when then kingdom comes clearly has a before and after picture to it and like Dan 7 the son of man who is to be king over all the earth does not come until one is persecuting for a time, times and half a time and this guy called the pompous one is destroyed and given to the flame. Hey that is just like the beast persecuting for 42 months and he is given to the flame. But then the rest of the beast lose their dominion but have their lives prolonged for a season and a time. What is this? Could this be the demonic element losing dominion and never regaining it? The pompous one is in the flame same as the beast but their lives prolonged for a season,(1000) and a time ( to be loosed with Satan to test the world at the end of the 1000 years) is a key note.
Remember in LUKE 1 Jesus is not just taking the throne of David but he is keeping the oaths to the fathers that they should be delivered from their enemies and worship without fear and in holiness all the days of their lives. This is what is coming and Jesus does indeed keep the oaths and the before and after picture is glorious.

So, you have nothing? I suspected that. Premil enjoys zero corroboration.

Brian Mcnamee · Dec 18, 2020

You notes, "What we emphasize is that Jesus is already king over all the earth because scripture says so. Premil doesn't seem to want to acknowledge that."

Hi God was always king over all creation and he created man in His image and put us over the earth and man forfeited that dominion to Satan at the fall as Satan tempted Jesus by offering him all the kingdoms of the world at a time noting they were his and he could give them to who ever he wished. I noted Rev has the transfer of the kingdom to the LORD and His Christ as a future event. Now this idea is very clear a before and after event with many supporting scriptures. In rev 2 we see psalm 2 quoted. Speaking of Jesus ‘He shall rule them with a rod of iron;
They shall be dashed to pieces like the potter's vessels."

This Rod of Iron Idea is expanded. Rev 12 She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne.

Note the child is caught up to God and His throne yet he is to rule the nations with a rod of Iron, still future.

Rev 19 is a key as it details when the rod of iron comes out and again the before and after picture is established. Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

He does not rule over the nations until he strikes them with the rod and treads the winepress of the wrath of God which is clearly the 2nd coming.

Now this is the day of vengeance of God as Isaiah notes it associated with the garments being stained.
1 Who is this who comes from Edom,
With dyed garments from Bozrah,
This One who is glorious in His apparel,
Traveling in the greatness of His strength?—
“I who speak in righteousness, mighty to save.”
2 Why is Your apparel red,
And Your garments like one who treads in the winepress?
3 “I have trodden the winepress alone,
And from the peoples no one was with Me.
For I have trodden them in My anger,
And trampled them in My fury;
Their blood is sprinkled upon My garments,
And I have stained all My robes.
4 For the day of vengeance is in My heart,
And the year of My redeemed has come.
5 I looked, but there was no one to help,
And I wondered
That there was no one to uphold;
Therefore My own arm brought salvation for Me;
And My own fury, it sustained Me.
6 I have trodden down the peoples in My anger,
Made them drunk in My fury,
And brought down their strength to the earth.”

Jesus is in heaven in Dan 7 and is the son of man who comes and is king over all the earth when the saints are being persecuted for 42 months. This is when Jesus treads the winepress of his wrath and is king over all the earth and the rod of Iron has come out.

The idea is ludicrous that Christ reign is now with the world in the condition it is in. When Jesus takes and binds Satan there will a a glorious before and after picture that shows like Dan 2 the stone cut without hands leaves no trace of the previous kingdoms and this kingdom covers the earth and will have no end. This is when Jesus takes the throne of David and establishes it with judgement and justice from that time on forever. Your view having Christ rule now would make Jesus responsible for world conditions and it certainly looks to me as if Satan has not been bound for the last 2000 years.

You can take all off your spiritual kingdom verses and we will not argue those as the kingdom is both a spiritual thing and a coming fulfillment of all the propheciees the ideas are not mutually exclusive.

Brian Mcnamee · Dec 18, 2020

Spiritual Jew said:
That is not something to just gloss over and act as if it's not an important consideration. Why would animal sacrifices ever be resinstituted in light of the fact that Jesus made His "once for all" sacrifice long ago while making the old covenant animal sacrifices obsolete forever in the process?[/QUOT

Hi I have not glossed it over I have agreed that they will not be replacing the one time sacrifice of Jesus. I have a rule if one thing I do not fully understand will not cause me to abandon things I know are proven and true. Things will be different with Jesus on the throne and He will still have the scars of the cross. When the day of atonement is come and you see Jesus as priest your faith will not be in the blood of animals for sure. The sacrifices of the past never were acceptable either as the crowd in heaven cries out that they all have been redeemed by the blood of Jesus the Lamb of God out of every tribe tongue kindred and nation. you can ask Jesus at that time or perhaps it will be clear in that day.

Zao is life · Dec 18, 2020

DavidPT said:
One approach I oftentimes take is the following. Whatever someone thinks something might mean, insert that meaning into the text. Does it make sense of the text, or does it make nonsense of the text?

Before we try and determine what is meant by the living waters, we still have to consider chronology, and that Zechariah 14:8 appears to not be pertaining to something in this age prior to the 2nd coming, but to something in the next age post the 2nd coming instead. In this context, as of verse 8, we are in an era of time that matches that of verse 11. Even to this day Jerusalem is not safely inhabited, and it for certain isn't safely inhabited as of verse 2. If we spiritualize Jerusalem in verse 8-11 to maybe be symbolizing the NT church in this age, but then consider Revelation 13 and the persecution on the church by way of the beast, in what way does that fit what Zechariah 14:11 records about Jerusalem, that it shall be safely inhabited? Let's see if the NT church in this present age can fit in these verses. Does it make sense of the texts, or does it make nonsense of them?

Zechariah 14:8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from NT church in this present age; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of the NT church in this present age: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.
11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but the NT church shall be safely inhabited.

Already we see utter nonsense in the text per verse 8 and 10----that living waters shall go out from NT church in this present age; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea---Yet, the NT church in this present age has no location, no boundaries, but Jerusalem would in this age and and in the next age. All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of the NT church---again, the NT church in this present age has no location, no boundaries, but Jerusalem would in this age and in the next age. How does it make sense for there to be something south of something that has has no location, no boundaries? It doesn't. Only a literal place could there be something south of.

As to verse 11, that is clearly meaning that about Jerusalem for forever, that it shall be safely inhabited. Therefore, it requires a Jerusalem that can fit the text. The only Jerusalem that can possibly fit the text is the new Jerusalem. And the fact there are compass directions involved, this makes the new Jerusalem a literal place that has a literal location in the earth.

As to the living waters in verse 8, and the fact this context has to involve the new Jerusalem, where one should be looking for what that might be referring to would be in Revelation 22.

Revelation 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

Why can't verse 1 be meaning the living waters meant in Zechariah 14:8? Why can't verse 2 be meaning what is trying to be accomplished in Zechariah 14:16-19, and that is the healing of the nations? If the NJ is geographically located, and that there are also nations, and that those living in the nations are obviously not living inside of the city if they are to come up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles, maybe by not coming up they are losing out on the benefits of being healed?

Why would any of this have to involve animal sacrificing, as Amils insist, if this is meaning a time post the 2nd coming? What does that have to do with anything? Does anyone get the impression, that from Revelation 21-22, that any of that might involve animal sacrificing? Granted, still a bit of speculation going on, per this part having to do with Zechariah 14:16-19 and what to do with those verses. But until and if someone can provide a better solution for those verses, all one can do is speculate as to when, where, and how they fit over all in the meantime. One thing that can't be denied, once Zechariah 14:16-19 initially begins to come to pass, it obviously involves more years in order to fulfill this part---shall even go up from year to year. It is ludicrous that that can be fulfilled in a single 24 hour day or less. And if this period of time is meaning post the 2nd coming, it obviously requires more years post the 2nd coming in order to fulfill the part about coming up from year to year.

Zechariah 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

And then there is this. I simply do not see how that can already be the case before the following is true first.

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Clearly, the 7th trumpet hasn't even sounded yet. Yet, Amils would have us believe that Zechariah 14:9 has already been fulfilled.

Yes, all the details in the prophecy which you mention in your post above cannot all be ignored just to suit a spiritual interpretation and in order that it meets the conditions for a spiritual kingdom and a spiritual Jerusalem, and such ignorance of detail in scripture is always based on hyper-allegory, which is also why one particular theological system flatly and completely ignores most detail in most prophecy.

The New Jerusalem in Revelation 21 comes down from God out of heaven. It will be on earth in the NHNE, and it's notable that it only comes down after death and hades have delivered up all the dead in them and those whose names are not found written in the Lamb's book of life are thrown into the LOF.

The New Jerusalem or the heavenly Jerusalem already exists and is populated by souls who have died in Christ. Since they will be resurrected and will reign with Christ on the earth for a thousand years then it means that Jerusalem on earth will once again be holy unto the Lord. The New Jerusalem or heavenly Jerusalem will itself come down from God out of heaven a thousand years later, and God will be all in all, because there will no longer be any separation between the physical and the spiritual.

God never created a physical universe to separate the spiritual and the physical. The separation of the physical and the spiritual came about through Adam's death. It's restored in Christ - but in stages. The separation of spiritual and physical that hyper-allegory and spiritualizing of all prophecy entails, is Dualism taken to its conclusion.

sovereigngrace · Dec 18, 2020

Brian Mcnamee said:
Hi I have not glossed it over I have agreed that they will not be replacing the one time sacrifice of Jesus. I have a rule if one thing I do not fully understand will not cause me to abandon things I know are proven and true. Things will be different with Jesus on the throne and He will still have the scars of the cross. When the day of atonement is come and you see Jesus as priest your faith will not be in the blood of animals for sure. The sacrifices of the past never were acceptable either as the crowd in heaven cries out that they all have been redeemed by the blood of Jesus the Lamb of God out of every tribe tongue kindred and nation. you can ask Jesus at that time or perhaps it will be clear in that day.

Yes you have. You are totally negating the cross-work. Amils all believe that the cross was the final sacrifice for sin. This is a major division with Premil.

You have proved nothing apart from the fact you have no biblical grounds to support your promotion of blood sacrifices for sin in the future. You have nothing! You misinterpret and misapply repeated OT Scripture. Nowhere. It is an attack upon Christ and His all-sufficient atoning work. It is forbidden by repeated NT Scripture.

John 1:29 records: “John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.”

Hebrews 9:26 confirms: “now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.”

1 John 3:5 confirms: “And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.”

Hebrews 10:18 says, “there is no more offering for sin.”

Hebrews 10:26 says, “there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins.”

sovereigngrace · Dec 18, 2020

Brian Mcnamee said:
You notes, "What we emphasize is that Jesus is already king over all the earth because scripture says so. Premil doesn't seem to want to acknowledge that."

Hi God was always king over all creation and he created man in His image and put us over the earth and man forfeited that dominion to Satan at the fall as Satan tempted Jesus by offering him all the kingdoms of the world at a time noting they were his and he could give them to who ever he wished. I noted Rev has the transfer of the kingdom to the LORD and His Christ as a future event. Now this idea is very clear a before and after event with many supporting scriptures. In rev 2 we see psalm 2 quoted. Speaking of Jesus ‘He shall rule them with a rod of iron;
They shall be dashed to pieces like the potter's vessels."

This Rod of Iron Idea is expanded. Rev 12 She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne.

Note the child is caught up to God and His throne yet he is to rule the nations with a rod of Iron, still future.

Rev 19 is a key as it details when the rod of iron comes out and again the before and after picture is established. Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

He does not rule over the nations until he strikes them with the rod and treads the winepress of the wrath of God which is clearly the 2nd coming.

Now this is the day of vengeance of God as Isaiah notes it associated with the garments being stained.
1 Who is this who comes from Edom,
With dyed garments from Bozrah,
This One who is glorious in His apparel,
Traveling in the greatness of His strength?—
“I who speak in righteousness, mighty to save.”
2 Why is Your apparel red,
And Your garments like one who treads in the winepress?
3 “I have trodden the winepress alone,
And from the peoples no one was with Me.
For I have trodden them in My anger,
And trampled them in My fury;
Their blood is sprinkled upon My garments,
And I have stained all My robes.
4 For the day of vengeance is in My heart,
And the year of My redeemed has come.
5 I looked, but there was no one to help,
And I wondered
That there was no one to uphold;
Therefore My own arm brought salvation for Me;
And My own fury, it sustained Me.
6 I have trodden down the peoples in My anger,
Made them drunk in My fury,
And brought down their strength to the earth.”

Jesus is in heaven in Dan 7 and is the son of man who comes and is king over all the earth when the saints are being persecuted for 42 months. This is when Jesus treads the winepress of his wrath and is king over all the earth and the rod of Iron has come out.

The idea is ludicrous that Christ reign is now with the world in the condition it is in. When Jesus takes and binds Satan there will a a glorious before and after picture that shows like Dan 2 the stone cut without hands leaves no trace of the previous kingdoms and this kingdom covers the earth and will have no end. This is when Jesus takes the throne of David and establishes it with judgement and justice from that time on forever. Your view having Christ rule now would make Jesus responsible for world conditions and it certainly looks to me as if Satan has not been bound for the last 2000 years.

You can take all off your spiritual kingdom verses and we will not argue those as the kingdom is both a spiritual thing and a coming fulfillment of all the propheciees the ideas are not mutually exclusive.

Jesus is king now. Repeated Scripture shows that Christ is reigning now! He is reigning upon high now! He is King! He is Lord. All power and authority belongs to Him now. Your false teaching causes you to dethrone Christ from His sovereign place reigning over His enemies today.

He testified after His resurrection: “All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth” (Matthew 28:18). This is sovereign kingship! He holds this today upon His Father's throne. Him and the Father are one spiritually in authority.

How much more power than “all power ... in heaven and in earth” does He need to exercise power and authority over His enemies?

This proves that Christ has already come and now exercises all power and authority today over all mankind. It means: He carries the Father's divine authority. He is currently enthroned. This is Sovereign kingship! He holds this today upon His Father's throne as God and upon David's throne as Messiah. Him and the Father are one spiritually in authority.

John says in Revelation 3:7, “These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath (present active particle) the key (or authority) of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth.”

He holds all power (without qualification). After all, He is God! God either causes or permits - as He is God and He is sovereign. Simple! That is an explicit biblical truth and a Christian fundamental. The powerful language that accompanies the mention of Christ holding the key of David proves that this is referring to His majestic power and might. It says, “he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth.” This speaks of spiritual power. The key allows Christ to sovereignly open and shut in a way that no man can thwart or override.

He reigns today over the seen and the unseen world making every power and every authority “subject unto him.”

Heaven’s authority is bestowed upon Christ. He is God! Colossians 2:9-10, 14-15 confirms: "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power … Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled (or divested or disarmed) principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.”

He rules intimately over His spiritual kingdom as Messiah and sovereignly over the physical kingdoms of the world and over all mankind as God.

He rules intimately over His spiritual kingdom as Saviour and sovereignly over the physical kingdoms of the world and over all mankind as Lord.

1 Peter 3:22 says, that Christ, “who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God (now!!!); angels and authorities and powers being (currently!!!) made subject unto him.”

Without a doubt Christ is reigning over His enemies since the resurrection, waiting for their final predetermined put down. Those who question Christ’s current reign do great assault upon the truth of God’s Word and undermine the current sovereign kingly position that He now assuredly holds. They also circumvent clear New Testament writings that teach Christ is reigning now.

1 Timothy 6:13-16 says, “I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession; That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate (dunastes or ruler, great authority or mighty), the King of kings, and Lord of lords; Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.”

He is going to reveal to mankind, time, and to the natural, what He is now in heaven, the invisible realm and in eternity. He "is (indeed) the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords.”

This all confirms my previous contention after years of debating this matter in my 13 major reasons why I abandoned the Premil doctrine: Premil is constantly exalting the power and influence of Satan and diluting the sovereign power and influence of Christ. That is nowhere more evident than in their constant rubbishing of Christ’s current kingship over His enemies at the right hand of majesty on high. Whether they mean to or not, Premils are always highlighting what Satan is doing in our day instead of what Christ is doing. Premil portrays a BIG devil and a small god, Amil has a small devil and a BIG God. In Premil, Satan seems sovereign in this age and God is curtailed. Premils are always lauding the ability of Satan since the cross. In Amil, Christ is sovereign and Satan is curtailed. Amils are always lauding the ability of Christ since the cross. As a consequence, Premil portrays an impotent beat-down New Testament Church, whereas Amil sees a victorious potent New Testament Church invading the nations with the good news of Christ and subjugating the powers of darkness as they do so. In Amil Christ reigns over all creation as God and His new creation as Saviour.

If Christ is not already King of kings, then neither is He already Lord of lords. But Revelation 17:14 tell us: "These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful."

This doesn't say He will eventually become Lord of lords and King of kings. It rather says that He is already that.

DavidPT · Dec 18, 2020

Spiritual Jew said:
If you take Zechariah 14:17-21 literally then it has to be referring to animal sacrifices being performed because a major part of observing the feast of tabernacles involved performing animal sacrifices. Read Leviticus 23:33-38. Also, verse 21 specifically mentions the use of pots and sacrifices, which would clearly be a reference to animal sacrifices if it's meant to be taken literally.

It seems to me that you take all of Zechariah 14 literally. Is that true or do you see some of it as being figurative?

It's possible, that per verse 2 in Zechariah 14, that that might not be meaning the literal city in the middle east. But even if it doesn't, when we get to the portions that involve compass directions though, how can that be understood any other way than literal? Look at verse 4, for instance.

And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west

How can a literal place and a literal location not be meant here if it is involving compass directions? Do you know of any NT Scriptures offhand, where it involves something being west of something, or something being east of something, etc, where none of it actually involves a literal place or a literal location somewhere on earth, in order to maybe show, that even though Zechariah 14 involves things like this, this doesn't necessarily mean that a literal place and a literal location is meant? Assuming that you can't and that you can at least admit that there is logic in what I'm saying, with that in mind though, what do you do with Zechariah 14:10-11? Do you then take that to mean the Jerusalem currently in the ME, or do you take that to mean the NJ in the future? Keeping in mind, this based on what I brought up about these compass directions, and that if you at least admitted that there is logic to what I'm saying.

As to verse 2, where I said it's possible that might not be meaning the literal city in the middle east, the following is something I'm currently pondering, thus haven't made up my mind one way or the other yet.

Zechariah 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

As to verse 2, there are some that insist 70 AD is meant here. Yet, look what The following in Revelation indicates.

Revelation 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

Revelation 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.
10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken---for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

and half of the city shall go forth into captivity----He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity

and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city----Here is the patience and the faith of the saints

Let me finish with this part, since there is still verses 16-19 to consider.

What I tend to see in Zechariah 14 is Jerusalem in two states, it's present state, and it's restored state. How can it possibly already be in it's restored state before the new Jerusalem ascends out of heaven from God? Are Preterists correct, that that is not speaking of a future state, but is speaking of a present state? How does it make sense to apply Zechariah 14:16-19 to it's present state, if it's present state involves what happens to it according to verse 2, rather than it's restored state, that meaning verse 11?

Would these in verses 16-19 be coming up year to year to a Jerusalem, where the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city? Or would they be coming up to a Jerusalem that men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited? Would it not be the latter? Is the latter already literally true, in any sense, that Jerusalem is safely inhabited? Keeping in mind though, Zechariah 14:10-11 involves compass directions, therefore the Jerusalem meant has to be a literal place in a literal location, unless you know of a another way to make sense of that without it having to involve a literal location, a literal place, that you would like to share.

Spiritual Jew said:
What we emphasize is that Jesus is already king over all the earth because scripture says so. Premil doesn't seem to want to acknowledge that.

Matthew 28:16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them. 17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. 18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Revelation 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, 6 and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.

Ephesians 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, 20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: 22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, 23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

Do you believe that Jesus currently has all power and authority in heaven and in earth as He said Himself?

Do you believe that Jesus Christ is currently "the ruler of the kings of the earth", as John said He is?

Do you believe that Jesus currently has authority "far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named" as Paul said He does? Did God the Father put all things under Christ's feet as Paul said He did?

I don't disagree with any of that, yet it still matters where verse 9 in Zechariah 14 fits chronologically. Does it fit during the time verse 2 is meaning, or does it fit during the time verse 11 is meaning?

Spiritual Jew · Dec 18, 2020

Brian Mcnamee said:
The idea is ludicrous that Christ reign is now with the world in the condition it is in.
You can take all off your spiritual kingdom verses and we will not argue those as the kingdom is both a spiritual thing and a coming fulfillment of all the propheciees the ideas are not mutually exclusive.

You are confusing Christ's reign with the time when He hands over His kingdom to the Father (Matt 13:36-43, 1 Cor 15:22-24). When Christ returns He will destroy all of His enemies (1 Cor 15:22-28, 1 Thess 4:14-5:6, 2 Thess 1:7-10, Matt 24:35-39, 2 Peter 3:3-13, Rev 19:18, Rev 20:9), which would not leave any mortals for Him to rule over on the earth.

He will deliver His kingdom, which we are in now (Col 1:13, Rev 1:5-6, 1 Peter 2:1-9), to the Father when He returns and we will inherit the eternal new heavens and new earth at that time.

Is there some reason why you didn't answer my simple questions? Can you please answer them? A yes or no answer for each of them would suffice.

Matthew 28:16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them. 17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. 18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Revelation 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, 6 and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.

Ephesians 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, 20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: 22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, 23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

Do you believe that Jesus currently has all power and authority in heaven and in earth as He said Himself?

Do you believe that Jesus Christ is currently "the ruler of the kings of the earth", as John said He is?

Do you believe that Jesus currently has authority "far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named" as Paul said He does? Did God the Father put all things under Christ's feet as Paul said He did?

Spiritual Jew · Dec 18, 2020

DavidPT said:
It's possible, that per verse 2 in Zechariah 14, that that might not be meaning the literal city in the middle east. But even if it doesn't, when we get to the portions that involve compass directions though, how can that be understood any other way than literal? Look at verse 4, for instance.

And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west

How can a literal place and a literal location not be meant here if it is involving compass directions? Do you know of any NT Scriptures offhand, where it involves something being west of something, or something being east of something, etc, where none of it actually involves a literal place or a literal location somewhere on earth, in order to maybe show, that even though Zechariah 14 involves things like this, this doesn't necessarily mean that a literal place and a literal location is meant? Assuming that you can't and that you can at least admit that there is logic in what I'm saying, with that in mind though, what do you do with Zechariah 14:10-11? Do you then take that to mean the Jerusalem currently in the ME, or do you take that to mean the NJ in the future? Keeping in mind, this based on what I brought up about these compass directions, and that if you at least admitted that there is logic to what I'm saying?

As to verse 2, where I said it's possible that might not be meaning the literal city in the middle east, the following is something I'm currently pondering, thus haven't made up my mind one way or the other yet.

Zechariah 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

As to verse 2, there are some that insist 70 AD is meant here. Yet, look what The following in Revelation indicates.

Revelation 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

Revelation 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.
10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken---for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

and half of the city shall go forth into captivity----He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity

and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city----Here is the patience and the faith of the saints

That was a lot and I honestly don't even know where to begin to respond. It does look like you do allow for the possibility that at least some of Zechariah 14 is figurative, which is what I was wondering about.

So, what about Zechariah 14:16-21 then? Do you see it as being literal or figurative? As I pointed out, if you take it literally it would imply the reinstating of animal sacrifices, which I don't believe anyone can reasonably deny because of the reference to the feast of tabernacles and the specific reference to pots and sacrifices in verses 20 and 21.

Let me finish with this part, since there is still verses 16-19 to consider.

Can you explain to me why you always reference verses 16-19, but not verses 20 and 21? Do you see verses 20-21 as speaking of something different than verses 16-19 do?

What I tend to see in Zechariah 14 is Jerusalem in two states, it's present state, and it's restored state. How can it possibly already be in it's restored state before the new Jerusalem ascends out of heaven from God? Are Preterists correct, that that is not speaking of a future state, but is speaking of a present state? How does it make sense to apply Zechariah 14:16-19 to it's present state, if it's present state involves what happens to it according to verse 2, rather than it's restored state, that meaning verse 11?

Would these in verses 16-19 be coming up year to year to a Jerusalem, where the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city? Or would they be coming up to a Jerusalem that men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited? Would it not be the latter? Is the latter already literally true, in any sense, that Jerusalem is safely inhabited? Keeping in mind though, Zechariah 14:10-11 involves compass directions, therefore the Jerusalem meant has to be a literal place in a literal location, unless you know of a another way to make sense of that without it having to involve a literal location, a literal place, that you would like to share.

I'm honestly not sure what those verses are saying. I think it must be figurative, though, and is probably referring to the heavenly Jerusalem that we all have come to be part of rather than earthly Jerusalem (Hebrews 12:22-24).

You really can't get around the fact that interpreting it literally would mean that you believe in the future reinstating of animal sacrifices. It's the same problem as believing that Ezekiel 40-48 should be taken literally and that it will be fulfilled in the future.

I don't disagree with any of that, yet it still matters where verse 9 in Zechariah 14 fits chronologically. Does it fit during the time verse 2 is meaning, or does it fit during the time verse 11 is meaning?

I'm not really sure. It seems that Zechariah was not really too concerned with making everything chronological in that passage from verse 1 to verse 21. That is not something unusual for the Old Testament prophets. Even the book of Revelation is not all chronological. So, that makes it difficult to interpret Zechariah 14.

Would you agree that because it's difficult to interpret Zechariah 14 and there are so many different interpretations of it, that it shouldn't be used as part of the foundation for someone's doctrine? There are more clear passages of scripture that can be used to form the foundation of our doctrine.

Spiritual Jew · Dec 18, 2020

Brian Mcnamee said:
Hi I have not glossed it over I have agreed that they will not be replacing the one time sacrifice of Jesus. I have a rule if one thing I do not fully understand will not cause me to abandon things I know are proven and true. Things will be different with Jesus on the throne and He will still have the scars of the cross. When the day of atonement is come and you see Jesus as priest your faith will not be in the blood of animals for sure. The sacrifices of the past never were acceptable either as the crowd in heaven cries out that they all have been redeemed by the blood of Jesus the Lamb of God out of every tribe tongue kindred and nation. you can ask Jesus at that time or perhaps it will be clear in that day.

To me, what you appear to be saying is that, yes, you believe there will be animal sacrifices again, and you're saying that while it doesn't make sense to us now, it will at that time. I don't accept that. I believe Hebrews 8-12 makes it clear that there would never be any reason for animal sacrifices to be reinstated. It would be a complete insult to what Christ accomplished with His "once for all" sacrifice He made long ago.

sovereigngrace · Dec 18, 2020

DavidPT said:
It's possible, that per verse 2 in Zechariah 14, that that might not be meaning the literal city in the middle east. But even if it doesn't, when we get to the portions that involve compass directions though, how can that be understood any other way than literal? Look at verse 4, for instance.

And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west

How can a literal place and a literal location not be meant here if it is involving compass directions? Do you know of any NT Scriptures offhand, where it involves something being west of something, or something being east of something, etc, where none of it actually involves a literal place or a literal location somewhere on earth, in order to maybe show, that even though Zechariah 14 involves things like this, this doesn't necessarily mean that a literal place and a literal location is meant? Assuming that you can't and that you can at least admit that there is logic in what I'm saying, with that in mind though, what do you do with Zechariah 14:10-11? Do you then take that to mean the Jerusalem currently in the ME, or do you take that to mean the NJ in the future? Keeping in mind, this based on what I brought up about these compass directions, and that if you at least admitted that there is logic to what I'm saying.

As to verse 2, where I said it's possible that might not be meaning the literal city in the middle east, the following is something I'm currently pondering, thus haven't made up my mind one way or the other yet.

Zechariah 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

As to verse 2, there are some that insist 70 AD is meant here. Yet, look what The following in Revelation indicates.

Revelation 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

Revelation 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.
10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken---for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

and half of the city shall go forth into captivity----He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity

and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city----Here is the patience and the faith of the saints

Let me finish with this part, since there is still verses 16-19 to consider.

What I tend to see in Zechariah 14 is Jerusalem in two states, it's present state, and it's restored state. How can it possibly already be in it's restored state before the new Jerusalem ascends out of heaven from God? Are Preterists correct, that that is not speaking of a future state, but is speaking of a present state? How does it make sense to apply Zechariah 14:16-19 to it's present state, if it's present state involves what happens to it according to verse 2, rather than it's restored state, that meaning verse 11?

Would these in verses 16-19 be coming up year to year to a Jerusalem, where the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city? Or would they be coming up to a Jerusalem that men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited? Would it not be the latter? Is the latter already literally true, in any sense, that Jerusalem is safely inhabited? Keeping in mind though, Zechariah 14:10-11 involves compass directions, therefore the Jerusalem meant has to be a literal place in a literal location, unless you know of a another way to make sense of that without it having to involve a literal location, a literal place, that you would like to share.

I don't disagree with any of that, yet it still matters where verse 9 in Zechariah 14 fits chronologically. Does it fit during the time verse 2 is meaning, or does it fit during the time verse 11 is meaning?

The Old Testament prophets looked through a glass darkly and described things in terms their listeners could understand. The audience of that day did not have the great wealth of knowledge and revelation we enjoy today through the appearance of Christ, the fulfilling of countless Old Testament prophecies and the completion of the written canon of Scripture. They had no great appreciation of the incarnation – how God would take on human form and make a one-off final payment for sin. The prophet's words were therefore covered in obscure language that may seem strange to the New Testament mind-set. Notwithstanding, we should consider: predicting the abolition of the Judaic sacrificial system would have been inconceivable in that day. It would have been like denying the faith or being a heretic.

Whilst the detail here is presented in terms of the law (when it was given), this doesn’t mean a return to the law; rather, the detail has new covenant realities today. The prophecy was not intended to be a scrupulously literal outline of the new economy, but rather a general overview of this new arrangement. When the Old Testament prophets described an improved economy, they described it in terms that made sense to the old covenant Israelites to whom they were writing. Thus, it is logical that a future state would be described in old covenant terms, even though these terms would not be an exact depiction of the approaching condition.

Premils take Old Testament Scripture that were prophetically written to the Old Testament saints through a glass darkly pertaining to the new covenant time and propel them into some imaginary future bipolar age of justice and injustice, deliverance and bondage, light and darkness, righteousness and unrighteousness, perfection and sin, glorification and corruption, sin and sinlessness, immortality and mortality, peace and harmony and war and terror. This concept is totally unknown to Scripture.

The difficulty Amils have with Premil is that it places a meaning on the Old Testament passages that do not fit with the consistence teaching of Scripture and which conflict with the fuller and clearer revelation of the New Testament. It seems like Premils take advantage of the vaguer and more obscured view that the prophets had and place a meaning on their predictions that were never intended by God or the prophet. That is why Premils seem more comfortable under the old covenant arrangement and are fixated with bringing it back again in the future. Amils pitch their tent in the New Testament, and let the clear and explicit New Testament explain the type and the shadow. They see Christ as the fulfillment of every single Old Testament hope.

Douggg · Dec 18, 2020

Spiritual Jew said:
But, there is absolutely no mention anywhere in the New Testament about a temporary earthly kingdom of Christ. The New Testament frequently mentions His spiritual kingdom that we are now in which did not come with observation (Luke 17:20) and is not of the world (John 18:36). But, nothing about an earthly kingdom.

The kingdom of heaven to be brought to earth as the Kingdom of God when Jesus returns is everlasting. This present earth though will be replaced with the new earth following the Great White Throne judgment.

The little horn person in the Tanach is time of the end, Daniel 8.

The little horn persecutes the saints for a time, times, half time in Daniel 7:25, until judgement sits on the little horn and his dominion... which will be here on earth. And the kingdom of heaven will be given to the people of the saints - here on earth . Brought here when Jesus returns to this earth to stand on the mount of Olives, and to set his glory among the nations (Ezekiel 39:21).

Daniel 7:26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.

27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

In Daniel 7: Jesus is given his kingdom

13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

The saints persecuted by the little horn person is here ON EARTH. And they shall be given the kingdom HERE ON EARTH in the days of the little horn person time of the end. To have dominion over all earthly kingdoms in Daniel 2.

44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

Spiritual Jew · Dec 18, 2020

Douggg said:
The kingdom of heaven to be brought to earth as the Kingdom of God when Jesus returns is everlasting. This presenet earth though will be replaced with the new earth following the Great White Throne judgment.

The little horn person in the Tanach is time of the end, Daniel 8.

The little horn persecutes the saints for a time, times, half times in Daniel 7:25, until judgement sits on the little horn and his dominion... which will be here on earth. And the kingdom of heaven will be given to the people of the saints - here on earth . Brought here when Jesus returns to this earth to stand on the mount of Olives, and to see his glory among the nations (Ezekiel 39:21).

Daniel 7:26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.

27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

In Daniel 7: Jesus is given his kingdom

13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

The saints persecuted by the little horn person is here ON EARTH. And they shall be given the kingdom HERE ON EARTH in the days of the little horn person time of the end. To have dominion over all earthly kingdoms in Daniel 2.

44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

I mentioned that there is no New Testament support for a future earthly kingdom and what do you do? You respond with nothing but Old Testament references. If that doesn't prove my point, I don't know what does.

Anyway, regarding Daniel 7:13-14, that is clearly a reference to the ascension of Christ to heaven long ago. Do you not believe He has already been given "dominion, and glory, and a kingdom" with authority over all people?

Let's compare Daniel 7:13-14 to Ephesians 1:17-22 and see the similarities.

Daniel 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. 14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Ephesians 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: 18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, 19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, 20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: 22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,

Both passages mention Jesus being brought before the Father in heaven. Both mention Jesus being given authority and dominion over all people for eternity. I believe the Ephesians 1 passage clearly shows us how we should understand Daniel 7:13-14. To think that He doesn't already have authority and dominion over all people would be to contradict Paul and to contradict Jesus Himself who said after His resurrection and just before His ascension "All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth" (Matthew 28:18).

Douggg · Dec 18, 2020

Spiritual Jew said:
I mentioned that there is no New Testament support for a future earthly kingdom and what do you do? You respond with nothing but Old Testament references. If that doesn't prove my point, I don't know what does.

Anyway, regarding Daniel 7:13-14, that is clearly a reference to the ascension of Christ to heaven long ago. Do you not believe He has already been given "dominion, and glory, and a kingdom" with authority over all people?

Let's compare Daniel 7:13-14 to Ephesians 1:17-22 and see the similarities.

Daniel 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. 14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Ephesians 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: 18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, 19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, 20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: 22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,

Both passages mention Jesus being brought before the Father in heaven. Both mention Jesus being given authority and dominion over all people for eternity. I believe the Ephesians 1 passage clearly shows us how we should understand Daniel 7:13-14. To think that He doesn't already have authority and dominion over all people would be to contradict Paul and to contradict Jesus Himself who said after His resurrection and just before His ascension "All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth" (Matthew 28:18).

The little horn person in Daniel 7 and 8 is time of the end. He will persecute the saints for a time, times, half times. Until the dominion of his kingdom is taken away. Here on earth.

And the saints who he will have persecuted will be given the Kingdom of God here on earth, to have dominion over all earthly kingdoms.

Spiritual Jew · Dec 18, 2020

Douggg said:
The little horn person in Daniel 7 and 8 is time of the end. He will persecute the saints for a time, times, half times. Until the dominion of his kingdom is taken away. Here on earth.

And the saints who he will have persecuted will be given the Kingdom of God here on earth, to have dominion over all earthly kingdoms.

If you're not going to bother specifically addressing anything I said in my post, then please don't bother responding at all. Thanks.

If you would give your interpretation of Ephesians 1:17-23, that would be great.

sovereigngrace · Dec 18, 2020

Douggg said:
The kingdom of heaven to be brought to earth as the Kingdom of God when Jesus returns is everlasting. This present earth though will be replaced with the new earth following the Great White Throne judgment.

The little horn person in the Tanach is time of the end, Daniel 8.

The little horn persecutes the saints for a time, times, half time in Daniel 7:25, until judgement sits on the little horn and his dominion... which will be here on earth. And the kingdom of heaven will be given to the people of the saints - here on earth . Brought here when Jesus returns to this earth to stand on the mount of Olives, and to set his glory among the nations (Ezekiel 39:21).

Daniel 7:26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.

27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

In Daniel 7: Jesus is given his kingdom

13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

The saints persecuted by the little horn person is here ON EARTH. And they shall be given the kingdom HERE ON EARTH in the days of the little horn person time of the end. To have dominion over all earthly kingdoms in Daniel 2.

44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

You distort so much Scripture, it is hard to know where to start. Daniel 7:13-14: “I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.”

When most people read this reference to the Son of Man coming with clouds they immediately assume that it relates to the second coming of the Lord. However, if they would carefully examine the wording of the passage and particularly the import of the reading, they would find that it makes absolutely no mention to Christ coming to earth in the clouds, but rather, it is speaking of Christ rising into the presence of His Father – the Ancient of Days – to receive His reward in heaven. The narrative expressly says, “the Son of man … came to the Ancient of days.” This glorious event occurred after the cross when He triumphantly entered into the portals of heaven in a cloud to sit at the right hand of majesty on high. This passage correlates with many in the New Testament that show Christ taking His throne after His sinless life, His atoning death and victorious resurrection.

He has been reigning ever since!

The question that emanates from here is: where, in this vision, does the son of man (Christ) go? Is it to the earth or is it to His Father? Of course, the passage answers this for us; “the Son of man … came to the Ancient of days.” The Son of Man is shown here not to be coming from the Ancient of Days, but rather going to Him in the clouds. Christ is coming to the Father. For what purpose? Christ ascended in the clouds to the Father to receive His coronation. He came to be given dominion, glory and a kingdom. Christ is therefore not coming from heaven to earth in this passage, but coming from earth to heaven.

The writer of the Hebrews also outlines such, whilst also addressing Psalm 110:1 and speaking of Christ, in Hebrews 10:12-13, stating, “this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; from henceforth [ekdechomenos] expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.”

The Greek word ekdechomenos in this passage is only found 6 times in the New Testament although this is the only place where it is rendered “expecting.” Notwithstanding, it fits in beautifully with the 5 other New Testament renderings which are found in varying tenses in the Scriptures and are separately interpreted – to wait, to look and to tarry. A fuller sense of the meaning could thus read, Christ is waiting, looking and expecting “till his enemies be made his footstool.” Moreover, the word employed here in the original relates to the present tense and indicates the current fulfilment of Christ’s glorious heavenly reign. His current reign is overseeing the ongoing Sovereign reign over the nations.

The focus of this passage is Christ’s great triumph rise to the right hand of majesty on high to reign over His enemies, after His devil defeating, sin destroying work at Calvary. There, as man’s great eternal High Priest “after the order of Melchisedec,” Christ currently sits making continual intercession for His people. Moreover, He also currently sits as king upon heaven’s throne, where He reigns over His enemies till all are made His footstool. Thus, Christ presently and perfectly fulfils both the office of king and priest from the right hand of majesty in heaven. What is more, the matter of Christ’s “expecting” or “waiting” here is expressly completed in heaven, not earth, as the Pre-mils would argue, as therefore current.

God promised the obedient Laodiceans of Asia Minor in Revelation 3:21, “To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame [speaking of His victorious life, death and resurrection], and am [present tense] set down with my Father in his throne.”

Christ’s great atoning victory at the cross and His current heavenly reign has enabled those that die in Christ to reign with Him in glory.

From this passage, we explicitly see:

(1) The battle was Calvary
(2) The outcome was victory,
(3) His reign is current,
(4) The location is heaven.

Christ’s current heavenly reign over His enemies is inextricably linked to the decisive victory He secured through His life, death and glorious resurrection. Christ’s present reign is therefore (1) to perfectly fulfil Scripture, and (2) to enforce the complete victory that was wrought.

It was only after His resurrection that Christ announced to His disciples, “All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth” (Matthew 28:18). All heaven’s authority was deposited upon Christ through the triumph of Calvary where He triumphantly procured absolute victory over death, hell, sin, Satan and every enemy. Christ thus assumed the heavenly throne of David in perfect fulfilment of Old Testament prophecy and therefore reigns as sovereign king until His last enemy is made His footstool.

Since the resurrection, Christ reigns supreme over all His enemies from His throne in heaven. There, by His Sovereign will, He intercedes for His people. This rule happening only after Christ triumphed over His enemy at the cross and gloriously rising from the dead. Hebrews 12:2 says, that Christ “who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.”

The Hebrews writer reveals the omnipotent Divine nature of Christ and His absolute authority as the Son of God. He expresses such truth in comparison to the lower angelic world.

That decisive victory over death, hell, sin, Satan and every enemy was procured at Calvary and resulted in Christ assuming His supreme foreordained office. Once that throne was secured, Christ would then reign from heaven until His enemies are made His footstool thus perfectly fulfilling every detail of that beautiful Old Testament prophecy.

For His enemies to be made His footstool is to simply say He has conquered them. They are now under His sovereign control. He has yet to destroy them. Their final subduing is still future. That happens at the one and only climactic Coming of Christ.

Ephesians 1:19-23 declares, “And what is the exceeding greatness of his (God’s) power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: and hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.”

Here is a very important passage that again confirms the absolute authority that Christ now enjoys and reveals the unlimited scope of His current rule. It explicitly illustrates the current sovereign reign of Christ over all His enemies from the “right hand” of majesty on high, until the occasion when He finally makes them His footstool – namely His one final future all-consummating Coming. God hath now “put all things (not some) under his feet.” And so as to leave no ambiguity to the reader, we find Paul explaining the fact that Christ’s rule includes both the whole natural and spiritual realm: “all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come.”

The phrase “set (kathizō) him at his own right hand” literally reads in the original “seated him at his own right hand.” Many miss the enormity of this language. In ancient times, when a monarch was seated upon their throne it confirmed their formal investiture with regal power. It also often meant that their enemies had been conquered and they were now ruling.

Zechariah 14 and Premil vs Amil

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