Who is "National Israel"?

BABerean2

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So if John 20:23 is part of the same great commission given to the 11, you are also saying it is not directed at you.

That was what I am trying to make clear. Whether Jesus heals today or not is separate point.


Are you saying it was not the same great commission that Paul was later a part of?


Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.


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Guojing

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Are you saying it was not the same great commission that Paul was later a part of?


Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.


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Again that is a separate topic to be discussed. We are still at John 20:23
 
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BABerean2

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Again that is a separate topic to be discussed. We are still at John 20:23


Are you trying to say that one verse has nothing to do with the Great Commission or the role of the Holy Spirit?


Joh 20:21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
Joh 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
Joh 20:23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.


Notice that the statement in verse 23 begins in verse 22.
Therefore, they cannot be separated without destroying the context.

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Guojing

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Are you trying to say that one verse has nothing to do with the Great Commission or the role of the Holy Spirit?


Joh 20:21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
Joh 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
Joh 20:23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.


Notice that the statement in verse 23 begins in verse 22.
Therefore, they cannot be separated without destroying the context.

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my point is that the 11 were given something in the gc that we weren’t given.

That you agree
 
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keras

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Are you also discussing whether the great commission applies to us too?
No, but the GC does apply to every Christian. Matthew 28:20

Do you really think the citizens of the Jewish State of Israel are the only people who are told to spread the Gospel?
That this is wrong, is simply proved by their continued denial of Jesus.

The main refutation of the belief of a general redemption of the Jews, is the many prophesies that graphically tell of their virtual demise. Isaiah 22:1-14, Jeremiah 10:18, Romans 9:27, +
 
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Guojing

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No, but the GC does apply to every Christian. Matthew 28:20

Do you really think the citizens of the Jewish State of Israel are the only people who are told to spread the Gospel?
That this is wrong, is simply proved by their continued denial of Jesus.

The main refutation of the belief of a general redemption of the Jews, is the many prophesies that graphically tell of their virtual demise. Isaiah 22:1-14, Jeremiah 10:18, Romans 9:27, +

In that case, what about John 20:23?
 
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BABerean2

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my point is that the 11 were given something in the gc that we weren’t given.

That you agree


They were given the Holy Spirit, which was also given at the house of Cornelius in Acts of the Apostles 11:15-17, and is given to all true believers, as found in Romans 8:9, and 1 Corinthians 3:16, and 1 John 2:27.

Do you agree to this fact?

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Guojing

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They were given the Holy Spirit, which was also given at the house of Cornelius in Acts of the Apostles 11:15-17, and is given to all true believers, as found in Romans 8:9, and 1 Corinthians 3:16, and 1 John 2:27.

Do you agree to this fact?

.

That may be the case but the Holy Spirit worked differently now, no signs and wonders for us, compared to the 12 and those preaching to Israel then.
 
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BABerean2

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That may be the case but the Holy Spirit worked differently now, no signs and wonders for us, compared to the 12 and those preaching to Israel then.

Are you saying nobody can now be healed by prayer?

What was different when Peter preached the Gospel at the house of Cornelius?


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keras

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In that case, what about John 20:23?
That was a gift to the Apostles.
Not available today, we can only pray to Jesus for forgiveness.

Your attempts to make the citizens of the nation of Israel. into something they obviously are not, fail miserably.
 
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Guojing

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That was a gift to the Apostles.
Not available today, we can only pray to Jesus for forgiveness.

Your attempts to make the citizens of the nation of Israel. into something they obviously are not, fail miserably.

So you also agree that there are some parts of the gc not available for us today right?
 
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Guojing

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Are you saying nobody can now be healed by prayer?

What was different when Peter preached the Gospel at the house of Cornelius?
.

God can heal if he choose to.

But it is no longer guaranteed. Paul epistles contained the approach we are to use regarding healing, romans 8:18 is a good illustration of that
 
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keras

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So you also agree that there are some parts of the gc not available for us today right?
Yes, obviously we do not yet all know the Lord. Or our sins remembered no more. Hebrews 8:11-12
All that awaits the Return of Jesus.
 
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Guojing

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Yes, obviously we do not yet all know the Lord. Or our sins remembered no more. Hebrews 8:11-12
All that awaits the Return of Jesus.

Interesting that you quote Hebrews 8 passage here, when many people on this thread insist that the new covenant is already fulfilled.
 
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keras

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Interesting that you quote Hebrews 8 passage here, when many people on this thread insist that the new covenant is already fulfilled.
I don't, because plain reading of the new Covenant shows that fulfillment now, is impossible.
We have the Promise of it and will finally cut it with God in the near future, when all the Christian peoples are living in all of the holy Land.
 
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Guojing

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I don't, because plain reading of the new Covenant shows that fulfillment now, is impossible.
We have the Promise of it and will finally cut it with God in the near future, when all the Christian peoples are living in all of the holy Land.

Yes I certainly agree with you the new covenant is a future event, the 2nd coming of Christ for the nation Israel
 
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BABerean2

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Interesting that you quote Hebrews 8 passage here, when many people on this thread insist that the new covenant is already fulfilled.


Some of us know what the word "now" means in Hebrews 8:6-13, where the author of the Book of Hebrews quotes Jeremiah 31:31-34 word-for-word.

However, you cannot acknowledge that word because it kills your two peoples of God doctrine.
Therefore, you pretend the word does not exist.
Is this being honest with God's Word?


The New Covenant: Bob George



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Guojing

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Some of us know what the word "now" means in Hebrews 8:6-13, where the author of the Book of Hebrews quotes Jeremiah 31:31-34 word-for-word.

However, you cannot acknowledge that word because it kills your two peoples of God doctrine.
Therefore, you pretend the word does not exist.
Is this being honest with God's Word?


The New Covenant: Bob George



.

So you ever tried to convince Keras of your wisdom too?
 
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jgr

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I don't, because plain reading of the new Covenant shows that fulfillment now, is impossible.
We have the Promise of it and will finally cut it with God in the near future, when all the Christian peoples are living in all of the holy Land.

Quoting from your dispenbible:

Matthew 26
28 for this is my unfulfilling blood of the unfulfilled new covenant, that for many is being poured out -- to no remission of sins;

AKA your "plain reading".
 
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mkgal1

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Yes I certainly agree with you the new covenant is a future event,
Since there are two covenants mentioned all throughout the New Testament - one specifically identified as the covenant made on Mt Sinai....the Mosaic Covenant - to say the second is future to us would mean we are still in the time of the Mosaic Covenant. How is that reconciled?

That's completely dismissing all that was prophesied and actually changed with Jesus's first advent and the end and disappearance of the Mosaic Covenant in the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple religious system in 70 AD.

Galatians 4:24-26
This is allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants: one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar. Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother.
 
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