Zechariah 14 and Premil vs Amil

Brian Mcnamee · Dec 17, 2020

DavidPT said:
What this thread is trying to determine, over all does Zechariah 14 seem to support Premil or Amil better? What we should first try and decide about, is chronology important or not? If isn't, couldn't one then conclude, for example, that what is recorded in verses 16-19 is already true before what is recorded in verse 2 is true? That doesn't seem reasonable, right? Shouldn't this at least tell us that chronology is relevant per Zechariah 14? Would it then be unreasonable to try and determine whether Zechariah 14 supports Premil or Amil better, based on the chronology of events recorded in this chapter? The approach I will be taking is that chronology is relevant in Zechariah 14.

Zechariah 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

Whatever this is referring to, and whatever it is meaning, the next verse also shows that chronology is relevant in this chapter.

Zechariah 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

How can the 'Then' that begins this sentence not mean at that time, based on the events recorded in verse 2?

Zechariah 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

How can, And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, not be meaning when He shall go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle? How could it possibly be meaning a time prior to what He sets out to do in verse 4? If that could be true, then so could it be true that Zechariah 14:16-19 is already true before verse 2 is even true, as an example, which then leads to a nonsensical conclusion.

Zechariah 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

As to this part----and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee---shouldn't that chronologically result in verse 3 and 4?

IOW, the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee, then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah.

Maybe compare some of this with the following in Luke 17.

Luke 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.
32 Remember Lot's wife.

It's interesting that this passage brings up the events pertaining to the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. Anyone reading that account should see that there was a literal bodily visitation by the LORD during that time, the fact it was the LORD out of heaven raining fire and brimstone down on them and the city. I would think heaven in that context would be meaning as in our atmosphere, but that is just my opinion.

I will continue the OP in the next 2 posts since it is already getting lengthy as is.

You have the right approach like a Barean you are studying the scriptures to see if these things are true. You seem to be facing an army of those who would lead you into their wind of doctrine. As I look at the scriptures and the relationships of all the verses like your notes on Zech 14 they are all harmonious. Zech 14 that river flows years round and the splitting of the mount of Olives forms a specific valley. That river is to flow east and if you go east from the Mt of Olives you would end up in the dead sea. In Eze 47 the dead sea is healed and a prosperous fishing place but the salt marshes are not healed and this again is pointing not to New Jerusalem but known areas. At this time when the river has healed the dead sea the 12 tribes gain their inheritance in the current geographical Israel. This is when Jesus takes the throne of David and reigns for 1000 years. Satan is bound and released at the end of this era. The kingdom does not end but is moved. The before and after picture is clear.

sovereigngrace · Dec 17, 2020

Brian Mcnamee said:
You have the right approach like a Barean you are studying the scriptures to see if these things are true. You seem to be facing an army of those who would lead you into their wind of doctrine. As I look at the scriptures and the relationships of all the verses like your notes on Zech 14 they are all harmonious. Zech 14 that river flows years round and the splitting of the mount of Olives forms a specific valley. That river is to flow east and if you go east from the Mt of Olives you would end up in the dead sea. In Eze 47 the dead sea is healed and a prosperous fishing place but the salt marshes are not healed and this again is pointing not to New Jerusalem but known areas. At this time when the river has healed the dead sea the 12 tribes gain their inheritance in the current geographical Israel. This is when Jesus takes the throne of David and reigns for 1000 years. Satan is bound and released at the end of this era. The kingdom does not end but is moved. The before and after picture is clear.

Where in Zechariah 14 is a thousand years mentioned?

Where in Zechariah 14 is the new earth mentioned?

Where in Zechariah 14 are the glorified saints mentioned?

Where in Zechariah 14 is Jesus shown to be on earth?

Where in Zechariah 14 is the binding of Satan?

Where in Zechariah 14 are the 2 resurrections/judgments?

Where in Zechariah 14 is the release of Satan and an unparalleled global uprising 1,000 years after the second coming?

sovereigngrace · Dec 18, 2020

DavidPT said:
Opinions are just that, opinions. Opinions don't prove anything one way or the other unless those opinions are backed up by facts. Zechariah 14 is not a real lengthy chapter. Take us through that chapter and explain to us how it really should be understood. You never know, depending on what you submit, I may even end up agreeing with you about some of it.

Zechariah 14:4 says, “And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which [is] before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, [and there shall be] a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.”

The prophets frequently intermixed literal and figurative language all the time. That makes it difficult to dissect. Even in the midst of the most literal of passages in the Bible, mountains are repeatedly used to impress deep spiritual truths. The predicted mountain moving ministry of John the Baptist is a case-in-point. The result of the cross saw the Gospel go out to both Jew and Gentile alike. The scope of the cross-work reached far-and-wide.

There are about five hundred references to mountains and hills in Scripture. The Bible refers to both the physical reality of actual geographical locations and also equally uses them as spiritual symbols.

Mountains and hills of course refer to literal landscapes in Scripture, but they are also used as symbols to declare the nature of God or divine truth. God and His love are compared to the mountains and hills in Scripture. Psalm 125:2 states: “As the mountains are round about Jerusalem, so the LORD is round about his people from henceforth even for ever.” Psalm 121:1 declares: “I will lift up mine eyes unto the hills, from whence cometh my help.” Psalm 36:6: “Thy righteousness is like the great mountains.” Psalm 76:4: “Thou art more glorious and excellent than the mountains of prey.”

Mountains and hills can be joyful (Psalm 65:12, 89:12, 98:8), they can skip and leap (Psalm 114:4, 6), they can sing (Isiah 44:23 & 55:12). The prophets Ezekiel and Micah spoke to the mountains and picture God doing the same (Ezekiel 6:3, Ezekiel 36:4 & 6, Micah 6:1–2).

The majesty and power of kingdoms are often identified in Scripture with the magnificent and splendor of mountains.

Luke 3:4-5 records, speaking of that great forerunner of Christ – John the Baptist, “As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet (in Isaiah 40:3-5), saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be made smooth.”

This prophecy did not in any way insinuate that John was arriving with a great earth-remover in order to flatten “every mountain and hill” around Jerusalem, nor to fill in the natural valleys that surrounded the city. No. Like Luke, Zechariah was not looking for physical change in the geographical terrain of natural Israel. He was simply speaking in figurative hyperbole describing what God wanted to do in the hearts of the people. He was articulating the colossal impact the coming of Christ’s kingdom had upon the earth.

We see the same idea presented in Isaiah 41:14-15: “Fear not, thou worm Jacob, and ye men of Israel; I will help thee, saith the LORD, and thy redeemer, the Holy One of Israel. Behold, I will make thee a new sharp threshing instrument having teeth: thou shalt thresh the mountains, and beat them small, and shalt make the hills as chaff.”

Commentators see a connection between this and assignment of John the Baptist. They take this as denoting the successful spread of the Gospel by faithful Israel and it conquering of nations and kingdoms. Zechariah is seen challenging a mountain in Zechariah 4:7, declaring: “Who art thou, O great mountain? before Zerubbabel thou shalt become a plain.” The mountain here seems to symbolize a wicked resisting power or powers. The prophet predicts that they will be brought low.

The splitting of the Mount of Olives so that God's people could escape to safety sounds similar to Christ saying faith can move mountains. The references to topographical changes could therefore be viewed in a figurative manner. This kind of language is common throughout the Old Testament. It seems to be talking about spiritual matters. In fact, we know that John the Baptist was responsible for bringing every mountain low and exalting every valley through his pivotal preparatory ministry.

Micah 1:3-5 said of Christ: “For, behold, the LORD cometh forth out of his place, and will come down, and tread upon the high places of the earth. And the mountains shall be molten under him, and the valleys shall be cleft, as wax before the fire, and as the waters that are poured down a steep place. For the transgression of Jacob is all this, and for the sins of the house of Israel. What is the transgression of Jacob? is it not Samaria? and what are the high places of Judah? are they not Jerusalem?”

In Micah 1:3 we are told that God “is coming forth from His place” to “come down and tread on the high places of the earth.” This descriptive language is no different from the Lord standing on the Mount of Olives with the result that it will split. It was not uncommon for prophets to use figurative expressions about the Lord coming down, mountains trembling, being scattered, and hills bowing (Habakkuk 3:6, 10); mountains flowing down at his presence (Isaiah 64:1, 3); or mountains and hills singing and the trees clapping their hands” (Isaiah 55:12).

This passage is portraying the great global expanse of the Gospel. Jehovah God would no longer be limited to one small nation in the Middle East. Indeed “the LORD shall be king over all the earth.” When Christ came He ushered the great evangelization of the nations. Nations that were once hopelessly outside of Christ and outside of hope would now, in this Gospel age, experience God in a very personal and living way. He is now the Lord of the nations. The heathen have been embracing Him in their millions for years. Jew and Gentile are all one in Christ now. There is no longer any division between the two. There is one Lord and Savior of all the earth.

Jesus used similar language in Matthew 17:20-21: “If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you. Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting.”

Mountains are shown here to be moved by simple faith. Obviously, they are not literal. This correlates with Isaiah 40:3-5, Micah 1:3-5 and Zechariah 14:4.

Anyway, Christ has already come and set His feet upon the Mount of Olives and established true worship by the working and ministry of the Holy Spirit (as rivers of living water) throughout the earth. Matthew 26:30-31, 27:50-51 says, “And when they had sung an hymn, they went out into the mount of Olives. Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written (in Zechariah 13:7 speaking of Christ’s earthly ministry), I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad ... Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent."

We can see this great eternal atonement that Christ made caused an earthquake to shake Jerusalem that affected the whole terrain.

Even Tertullian the Early Church Father who was Chiliast recognized Zechariah 14 as an historic passage fulfilled at the first advent, saying, “But ‘at night He went out to the Mount of Olives.' For thus had Zechariah pointed out: 'And His feet shall stand in that day on the Mount of Olives' [Zech. xiv. 4]." ("Tertullian Against Marcion," Book 4, chapter XL)

The splitting of the Mount of Olives so that God's people could escape to safety sounds similar to Christ saying faith can move mountains. It is also like God's people passing through the Red Sea.

Douggg · Dec 18, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Where in Zechariah 14 is a thousand years mentioned?

Where in Zechariah 14 is the new earth mentioned?

Where in Zechariah 14 are the glorified saints mentioned?

Where in Zechariah 14 is Jesus shown to be on earth?

Where in Zechariah 14 is the binding of Satan?

Where in Zechariah 14 are the 2 resurrections/judgments?

Where in Zechariah 14 is the release of Satan and an unparalleled global uprising 1,000 years after the second coming?

sovreigngrace,

Where in Zechairah 14 is anything that you, Bab2, Spiritual Jews believe ?

Douggg · Dec 18, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
The prophets frequently intermixed literal and figurative language all the time. That makes it difficult to dissect. Even in the midst of the most literal of passages in the Bible, mountains are repeatedly used to impress deep spiritual truths. The predicted mountain moving ministry of John the Baptist is a case-in-point. The result of the cross saw the Gospel go out to both Jew and Gentile alike. The scope of the cross-work reached far-and-wide.

The mountain in Zechariah 14 is about one well known mountain that has not been split yet. And that specific mountain will be split, half to the north - half to the south. It is not a metaphor, analogy, or symbolism.

Zao is life · Dec 18, 2020

What you say below (the part that I highlight) is important to me, because it was the main reason why, though I always took Zechariah 14 to be literal, I placed it in my "I don't know where this scripture fits" cabinet:

DavidPT said:
Amils are likely going to argue, that to place Zechariah 14:16-19 post the 2nd coming rather than before the 2nd coming, means that animal sacrificing has to resume then. Yet, if it is meaning before the 2nd coming, would that mean animal sacrifices have to resume as well? No. Therefore their argument is moot. And besides, first they have to prove that Zechariah 14:16-19 fits prior to the 2nd coming before they have good cause to insist it can't and doesn't fit after the 2nd coming instead. IOW, they are coming up with reasons why they don't think it can fit after the 2nd coming without showing how it fits prior to the 2nd coming instead. How can it even fit prior to the 2nd coming to begin with if the chronology is already proving otherwise?

Yes. And everything thing you say in all three posts is valid. Chronology matters.

Let's pretend we were believers in the God of Israel, and we were living in the 1st century B.C. How would we have understood Zechariah 14?

The way we would have understood Zechariah 14 in the 1st century B.C tells us what it's context is. The New Testament does not change the context of all Old Testament prophecy. I believe that the chief reason why the disciples asked Jesus when He was standing on the Mount of Olives immediately before His ascension, if He would "restore the kingdom to Israel" at that time, is because they knew what Zechariah had prophesied. In His reply Jesus did not say His Kingdom would never be a literal kingdom. Not even in His reply to Pilate did Jesus say His Kingdom would never be a literal Kingdom. He said, "My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence." (John 18:36). That word "now" is always (conveniently) ignored (more than overlooked - it's flatly ignored) by those who refuse to believe the Lord's Kingdom will ever be literal: The word now in Jesus' reply to Pilate is a translation of the Greek word nŷn which means "of present time".

So the disciples showed by the question they asked Jesus on the Mount of Olives immediately before his ascension that they were expecting a literal kingdom, especially because Zechariah had said the LORD would set His feet on the Mount of Olives and go out and fight against the nations that had gathered against Jerusalem. All the Jews were expecting the Messiah to deliver them from Roman occupation.

"It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father has put in His own authority.
But you shall receive power, the Holy Spirit coming upon you. And you shall be witnesses to Me both in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and in Samaria, and to the end of the earth.
And saying these things, as they watched, He was taken up. And a cloud received Him out of their sight." Acts 1:7-9

The Lord's reply is hardly saying that what they asked was never going to happen.

"And while they were looking intently into the heaven, He having gone, even behold, two men in white clothing stood beside them,
who also said, Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into the heaven? This same Jesus who is taken up from you into Heaven, will come in the way you have seen Him going into Heaven."

"For I will gather all nations to battle against Jerusalem; and the city shall be taken, and the houses plundered, and the women raped. And half of the city shall go into exile, and the rest of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
And the LORD shall go out and fight against those nations, like the day He fought in the day of battle.
And His feet shall stand in that day on the Mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the Mount of Olives shall divide from its middle, from the east and to the west, a very great valley. And half of the mountain shall move toward the north, and half of it toward the south." Zechariah 14:2-4

Standing on the Mount of Olives when He gave His Olivet Discourse, Jesus said,

"And this gospel of the kingdom shall be proclaimed in all the world as a witness to all nations. And then the end shall come." Matthew 24:14

If the kingdom had come in full on the Day of Pentecost, why would the gospel that would be proclaimed to all the world as a witness to all nations, not be the gospel of salvation in Jesus Christ only? Why the gospel of the Kingdom? What is the gospel of the Kingdom? Is it not the same gospel of the Kingdom of the Messiah that had been spoken by all the prophets, including Zechariah?

So again, I believe you are 100% correct. What we see in Zechariah 14 is chronological. As far as living waters flowing from Jerusalem is concerned, Jesus told us that ""whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst, but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life." John 4:14

However, the problem I still have is with the fact that, even without animal sacrifices, the Feast of Tabernacles was part of the Laws of Moses, which would bring blessing to the people if obeyed, but curses if disobeyed - and here in Zechariah 14 we are told that this aspect of the Laws of Moses will become compulsory for the nations, who will be cursed with no rain if they do not comply.

I love the Feast of tabernacles, myself. I've never celebrated it but I love all the Biblical Feast which the Hebrew calls (God's) "appointed times" and our Bibles call "the Feasts of the LORD". I love them because I understand how each of those feasts and each aspect of each of those feasts points to Jesus. However, the law was abolished in the flesh of Christ and the covenant given through Moses has been replaced by a better covenant established in the blood of Christ.

Again though, if living waters flowing from Jerusalem is symbolic of what Jesus said about Living Waters then this Feast of Tabernacles may be symbolic too. That leaves us (as with the book of Revelation) with the task of separating the symbolic meaning in parts of the passage from the literal meaning in parts of the passage. I also believe that we also need to bear in mind the fact that Jesus can institute any Feast He pleases, following the fulfillment of the literal aspects of Zechariah 14, which open the passage.

Llewelyn Stevenson · Dec 18, 2020

Spiritual Jew said:
Zechariah 13:7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the Lord of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.

Matthew 26:31 Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad. 32 But after I am risen again, I will go before you into Galilee.

Since Zechariah 13:7 (and Zechariah 12:10) were fulfilled at the first coming of Christ I think that should make you reconsider what Zechariah 14 is actually all about. Did Zechariah suddenly skip ahead from talking about the days of the first coming of Christ in Zechariah 12 and 13 to the second coming in Zechariah 14?

Was Zechariah 13 fully fulfilled at the first coming of Jesus? Why do you say so?

I see it as incorrect to say Jesus fulfilled everything in the Old Testament at his first coming and I say this in light of things Jesus said and the questions his disciples asked him. For example:

Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

What coming is this? It couldn't be his first for he was already here.

Now, when Jesus answers about this future coming he refers to the Old Testament to support his claims. Old Testament Scripture that still needs to be fulfilled.

I simply find the pretext of your belief does not stand up to Scriptural scrutiny.

Zao is life · Dec 18, 2020

DavidPT said:
Opinions are just that, opinions. Opinions don't prove anything one way or the other unless those opinions are backed up by facts. Zechariah 14 is not a real lengthy chapter. Take us through that chapter and explain to us how it really should be understood. You never know, depending on what you submit, I may even end up agreeing with you about some of it.

IMO it should be understood in the same context we would understand it if we were believers in the God of Israel who were living in the 1st century B.C. The New Testament does not change the context of all Old Testament prophecy, just because the Amil fallacy blinds the minds of those who believe it to such an extent that they have to produce a Bible which consists of nothing more or less than a complete re-interpretation of all scripture in order to force all scripture to fit the Amil doctrine.

Because of the kind of replies and tone of those replies you get here I sometimes wonder how many Christians are actually interested in God's theology? They seem to want to defend man's theology to the death and are not interested in whether or not their man-made theology is God's theology.

Zao is life · Dec 18, 2020

DavidPT said:
The next portion in Zechariah 14, verses 7-11, we first need to deal with verse 12. Is verse 12 meaning during the time recorded in verses 7-11, or is it meaning before those verses begin to come to pass?

Zechariah 14:11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

If we consider verse 11, I don't see it making sense that verse 12 would be meaning during any of that. The reason for verse 12, is that they are being destroyed for gathering against Jerusalem. Per verse 11, no one would be gathering against Jerusalem if it indicates there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited. Which clearly wasn't the case as of verse 2, that Jerusalem was safely inhabited at the time.

Zechariah 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

As to this verse then, it seems ludicrous that this has already been fulfilled sometime in the past. Anyone that insists it was might be someone that one is not going to be able to reason with if they are convinced that is true, not meaning in general, but meaning in this case. Verse 12 is obviously meaning something that takes place as the result of the 2nd coming. Interestingly enough, since this depicts someone being literally devoured by God, the fact the verse indicates He is the one smiting these with this plague, is that we also see something like this in Revelation 20, someone being devoured via God.

Revelation 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

The holy city here is obviously meaning Jerusalem, but which Jerusalem, or maybe even, which sense, assuming a literal city might not be meant? In both Zechariah 14 and Revelation 20, a city is being surrounded, Jerusalem in this case, and that God intervenes by devouring those surrounding it.

Even though I'm Premil I'm still trying to be somewhat objective here by bringing up this possible connection with that of Zechariah 14:12 and Revelation 20:9.

I will finish the OP with the next post.

I believe verse 12-15 are talking about what happens when the LORD has set His feet on the Mount of Olives. Most Old Testament prophecy is written in the style of prose and poetry so it oscillates backward and forward talking about one thing, then another, then going back to the first.

As far as Jerusalem being called holy is concerned we know that for now Paul says, "For Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and answers to Jerusalem which now is, and is in slavery with her children. But the Jerusalem from above is free, who is the mother of us all." and the Revelation likens Jerusalem which exists now to "Sodom and Egypt". However:

This is not all that is said about Jerusalem - there is something Jesus said to her when He used the word "until", signifying a temporary thing:

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one killing the prophets and stoning those who are sent to her, how often would I have gathered your children together, even as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you would not! Behold, your house is left to you desolate.
For I say to you, You shall not see Me from now on until you say, "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord." Matthew 23:37-39

So when Jesus declared the above, was He saying that Jerusalem would never see Him again?

It goes back to the beginning of the prophecy in Zechariah which you mention (Zechariah 12), where in verse 10 it is said,

"And I will pour on the house of David, and on the people of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of prayers. And they shall look on Me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for Him, as one mourns for his only son, and shall be bitter over Him, as the bitterness over the first-born."

The entire chapter (Zechariah 12) is the introduction to chapter 14 which you are talking about:

1 "The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, says the LORD, who stretches forth the heavens, and lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him.
2 Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling to all the peoples all around, and it shall also be against Judah in the siege against Jerusalem.
3 And in that day I will make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all peoples. All who lift it shall be slashed, and all the nations of the earth will be gathered against it.
4 In that day, says the LORD, I will strike every horse with terror, and his rider with madness. And I will open My eyes on the house of Judah, and will strike every horse of the peoples with blindness.
5 And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, The people of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the LORD of hosts their God.
6 In that day I will make the governors of Judah like a hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire among cut grain. And they shall devour all the peoples all around, on the right hand and on the left hand. And Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her place, in Jerusalem.
7 The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, so that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the people of Jerusalem may not be magnified above Judah.
8 In that day the LORD shall defend around the people of Jerusalem. And it will be, he who is feeble among them at that day shall be like David; and the house of David shall be like God, like the Angel of the LORD before them.

9 And it shall be in that day I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

10 And I will pour on the house of David, and on the people of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of prayers. And they shall look on Me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for Him, as one mourns for his only son, and shall be bitter over Him, as the bitterness over the first-born.
11 In that day shall be a great mourning in Jerusalem, like the mourning of Hadad-rimmon in the valley of Megiddo.
12 And the land shall mourn, each family apart; the family of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart
13 the family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;
14 all the families who remain, each family apart and their wives apart."

So IMO and from what I can see, it goes back to:

"You shall not see Me from now on until you say, "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord." Matthew 23:37-39

sovereigngrace · Dec 18, 2020

Douggg said:
sovreigngrace,

Where in Zechairah 14 is anything that you, Bab2, Spiritual Jews believe ?

We have a description of Christ's first Advent, an allusion to AD70 followed by a prediction of the spread of the Gospel to the nations.

sovereigngrace · Dec 18, 2020

Douggg said:
The mountain in Zechariah 14 is about one well known mountain that has not been split yet. And that specific mountain will be split, half to the north - half to the south. It is not a metaphor, analogy, or symbolism.

Please address my avoided post above.

sovereigngrace · Dec 18, 2020

Llewelyn Stevenson said:
Was Zechariah 13 fully fulfilled at the first coming of Jesus? Why do you say so?

I see it as incorrect to say Jesus fulfilled everything in the Old Testament at his first coming and I say this in light of things Jesus said and the questions his disciples asked him. For example:

Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

What coming is this? It couldn't be his first for he was already here.

Now, when Jesus answers about this future coming he refers to the Old Testament to support his claims. Old Testament Scripture that still needs to be fulfilled.

I simply find the pretext of your belief does not stand up to Scriptural scrutiny.

You are simply expressing opinion. What is your evidence for believing otherwise?

Douggg · Dec 18, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
We have a description of Christ's first Advent, an allusion to AD70 followed by a prediction of the spread of the Gospel to the nations.

Where in Zechariah 14 is Jesus born to a virgin?

Where in Zechariah 14 is the temptation of Jesus?

Where in Zechariah 14 is the crucifixion?

Where in Zechariah 14 is the resurrection?

Where in Zechariah 14 is the destruction of the temple?

Where in Zechariah 14 is the Olivet discourse?

Where in Zechariah 14 is the binding of Satan?

Where in Zechariah 14 is the promised resurrection of the dead?

Spiritual Jew · Dec 18, 2020

Llewelyn Stevenson said:
Was Zechariah 13 fully fulfilled at the first coming of Jesus? Why do you say so?

Did I say so? No, I did not. You saw that I quoted Zechariah 13:7 and showed its fulfillment in Matthew 26:31, right? So, at the very least that verse was fulfilled at the first coming of Jesus. Shouldn't we use that as a clue as to what time period the other verses in the chapter might be referring to? It starts out saying "In that day..." in the first verse. What "day" or time period is it referring to? Doesn't Matthew 26:31 give us an idea of that?

I see it as incorrect to say Jesus fulfilled everything in the Old Testament at his first coming

I did not say that. Please stop twisting my words.

I have said that He fulfilled everything that the Old Testament said about Him and what He would do at His first coming. He said so Himself. His death and resurrection accomplished that. But, He didn't fulfill everything mentioned in the Old Testament. I never said that. The Old Testament mentions the future mass resurrection of the dead (Daniel 12:2), for example. That is not yet fulfilled. Jesus expanded on that and said there is a future time/hour when all of the dead will be resurrected (John 5:28-29), both the saved and the lost.

and I say this in light of things Jesus said and the questions his disciples asked him. For example:

Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

What coming is this? It couldn't be his first for he was already here.

Now, when Jesus answers about this future coming he refers to the Old Testament to support his claims. Old Testament Scripture that still needs to be fulfilled.

I simply find the pretext of your belief does not stand up to Scriptural scrutiny.

Jesus did not reference the Old Testament when He prophesied about His coming at the end of the age. That was a new prophecy He was giving that is yet to be fulfilled.

He also told the disciples that the temple buildings they were marveling at would be destroyed and they asked Him when that would happen (separate question than the one about His coming at the end of the age) and He answered that question as well in Matthew 24:15-22 (Mark 13:14-20, Luke 21:20-24). In that case He was referencing the prophecy in Daniel 9:26-27 which mentions the destruction of "the city and the sanctuary".

DavidPT · Dec 18, 2020

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
Again though, if living waters flowing from Jerusalem is symbolic of what Jesus said about Living Waters then this Feast of Tabernacles may be symbolic too. That leaves us (as with the book of Revelation) with the task of separating the symbolic meaning in parts of the passage from the literal meaning in parts of the passage. I also believe that we also need to bear in mind the fact that Jesus can institute any Feast He pleases, following the fulfillment of the literal aspects of Zechariah 14, which open the passage.

One approach I oftentimes take is the following. Whatever someone thinks something might mean, insert that meaning into the text. Does it make sense of the text, or does it make nonsense of the text?

Before we try and determine what is meant by the living waters, we still have to consider chronology, and that Zechariah 14:8 appears to not be pertaining to something in this age prior to the 2nd coming, but to something in the next age post the 2nd coming instead. In this context, as of verse 8, we are in an era of time that matches that of verse 11. Even to this day Jerusalem is not safely inhabited, and it for certain isn't safely inhabited as of verse 2. If we spiritualize Jerusalem in verse 8-11 to maybe be symbolizing the NT church in this age, but then consider Revelation 13 and the persecution on the church by way of the beast, in what way does that fit what Zechariah 14:11 records about Jerusalem, that it shall be safely inhabited? Let's see if the NT church in this present age can fit in these verses. Does it make sense of the texts, or does it make nonsense of them?

Zechariah 14:8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from NT church in this present age; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of the NT church in this present age: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.
11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but the NT church shall be safely inhabited.

Already we see utter nonsense in the text per verse 8 and 10----that living waters shall go out from NT church in this present age; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea---Yet, the NT church in this present age has no location, no boundaries, but Jerusalem would in this age and and in the next age. All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of the NT church---again, the NT church in this present age has no location, no boundaries, but Jerusalem would in this age and in the next age. How does it make sense for there to be something south of something that has has no location, no boundaries? It doesn't. Only a literal place could there be something south of.

As to verse 11, that is clearly meaning that about Jerusalem for forever, that it shall be safely inhabited. Therefore, it requires a Jerusalem that can fit the text. The only Jerusalem that can possibly fit the text is the new Jerusalem. And the fact there are compass directions involved, this makes the new Jerusalem a literal place that has a literal location in the earth.

As to the living waters in verse 8, and the fact this context has to involve the new Jerusalem, where one should be looking for what that might be referring to would be in Revelation 22.

Revelation 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

Why can't verse 1 be meaning the living waters meant in Zechariah 14:8? Why can't verse 2 be meaning what is trying to be accomplished in Zechariah 14:16-19, and that is the healing of the nations? If the NJ is geographically located, and that there are also nations, and that those living in the nations are obviously not living inside of the city if they are to come up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles, maybe by not coming up they are losing out on the benefits of being healed?

Why would any of this have to involve animal sacrificing, as Amils insist, if this is meaning a time post the 2nd coming? What does that have to do with anything? Does anyone get the impression, that from Revelation 21-22, that any of that might involve animal sacrificing? Granted, still a bit of speculation going on, per this part having to do with Zechariah 14:16-19 and what to do with those verses. But until and if someone can provide a better solution for those verses, all one can do is speculate as to when, where, and how they fit over all in the meantime. One thing that can't be denied, once Zechariah 14:16-19 initially begins to come to pass, it obviously involves more years in order to fulfill this part---shall even go up from year to year. It is ludicrous that that can be fulfilled in a single 24 hour day or less. And if this period of time is meaning post the 2nd coming, it obviously requires more years post the 2nd coming in order to fulfill the part about coming up from year to year.

Zechariah 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

And then there is this. I simply do not see how that can already be the case before the following is true first.

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Clearly, the 7th trumpet hasn't even sounded yet. Yet, Amils would have us believe that Zechariah 14:9 has already been fulfilled.

Brian Mcnamee · Dec 18, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Where in Zechariah 14 is a thousand years mentioned?

Where in Zechariah 14 is the new earth mentioned?

Where in Zechariah 14 are the glorified saints mentioned?

Where in Zechariah 14 is Jesus shown to be on earth?

Where in Zechariah 14 is the binding of Satan?

Where in Zechariah 14 are the 2 resurrections/judgments?

Where in Zechariah 14 is the release of Satan and an unparalleled global uprising 1,000 years after the second coming?

You see in Rev an angel sound the kingdoms of this earth have become the kingdoms of the LORD and His Chris and He shall rule forever. Now in Rev John was told to write the things he saw chapter 1 the the things that are chapter 2 and 3 and the things to come after this. The kingdom when John wrote Rev was still a future event. So all that prattling that Satan was bound at the cross is nonsense as he was not even bound yet. The things you have right are we are under the new covenant and you stumble over the fact that there are sacrifices in the millennium. Israel is not saved by having a birth rite they are saved when they believe in Jesus. Jesus is the LORD and in Zech 14 we see both the LORD is king over all the earth and that they will say the LORD is one. This is confessing that Jesus is LORD. This kingdom comes on a day very much like Armageddon as we only see from the perspective of Jerusalem. Which is being over run and 1/2 the city taken. The women are being ravished when the LORD comes and kills them quite graphically. The nations which are left must now come and worship the king and keep the feast of tabernacles or they get no rain. This shows continuity of life after the LORD is king.
Now as to the sacrifice's think about this; have you ever gone to a Seder dinner at Passover? For a Christian it is a powerful experience seeing the witness of Jesus in the feast. Now when Jesus is king the new covenant is still standing so the idea is to see these sacrifices much like we see communion. None the less the chronology of when then kingdom comes clearly has a before and after picture to it and like Dan 7 the son of man who is to be king over all the earth does not come until one is persecuting for a time, times and half a time and this guy called the pompous one is destroyed and given to the flame. Hey that is just like the beast persecuting for 42 months and he is given to the flame. But then the rest of the beast lose their dominion but have their lives prolonged for a season and a time. What is this? Could this be the demonic element losing dominion and never regaining it? The pompous one is in the flame same as the beast but their lives prolonged for a season,(1000) and a time ( to be loosed with Satan to test the world at the end of the 1000 years) is a key note.
Remember in LUKE 1 Jesus is not just taking the throne of David but he is keeping the oaths to the fathers that they should be delivered from their enemies and worship without fear and in holiness all the days of their lives. This is what is coming and Jesus does indeed keep the oaths and the before and after picture is glorious.

Spiritual Jew · Dec 18, 2020

Brian Mcnamee said:
You have the right approach like a Barean you are studying the scriptures to see if these things are true. You seem to be facing an army of those who would lead you into their wind of doctrine. As I look at the scriptures and the relationships of all the verses like your notes on Zech 14 they are all harmonious. Zech 14 that river flows years round and the splitting of the mount of Olives forms a specific valley. That river is to flow east and if you go east from the Mt of Olives you would end up in the dead sea. In Eze 47 the dead sea is healed and a prosperous fishing place but the salt marshes are not healed and this again is pointing not to New Jerusalem but known areas. At this time when the river has healed the dead sea the 12 tribes gain their inheritance in the current geographical Israel. This is when Jesus takes the throne of David and reigns for 1000 years. Satan is bound and released at the end of this era. The kingdom does not end but is moved. The before and after picture is clear.

What is your interpretation of Zechariah 14:17-21, which, if taken literally, would suggest the reinstitution of old covenant animal sacrifices?

DavidPT · Dec 18, 2020

Brian Mcnamee said:
Now when Jesus is king the new covenant is still standing so the idea is to see these sacrifices much like we see communion.

Do you believe there will be animal sacrifing post the 2nd coming? If yes, how could you possibly see that as a comparison to what you bring up here?

Brian Mcnamee · Dec 18, 2020

Spiritual Jew said:
What is your interpretation of Zechariah 14:17-21, which, if taken literally, would suggest the reinstitution of old covenant animal sacrifices?

I addressed that in my previous post; you must have skimmed it.

Spiritual Jew · Dec 18, 2020

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
IMO it should be understood in the same context we would understand it if we were believers in the God of Israel who were living in the 1st century B.C. The New Testament does not change the context of all Old Testament prophecy, just because the Amil fallacy blinds the minds of those who believe it to such an extent that they have to produce a Bible which consists of nothing more or less than a complete re-interpretation of all scripture in order to force all scripture to fit the Amil doctrine.

Because of the kind of replies and tone of those replies you get here I sometimes wonder how many Christians are actually interested in God's theology? They seem to want to defend man's theology to the death and are not interested in whether or not their man-made theology is God's theology.

You talk about the supposed "Amil fallacy" blinding people's minds and you are criticizing our tone? Take the plank out of your own eye before judging Amils.

We back up our views with clear scripture repeatedly. Premils are unable to support their view with New Testament scripture. Doesn't that trouble you? Don't you find it odd that the New Testament says nothing of a future temporary earthly kingdom? Why would that be if there was going to be such a thing? You think Revelation 20 does, but there is no mention there at all of Christ being on earth while He reigns.

The only New Testament scripture you have to support your premil view is a literal interpretation of Revelation 20 (which, again, does not mention an earthly kingdom) with the assumption that what it describes chronologically follows what is described in Revelation 19. That's it. Why would the rest of the New Testament be silent about it?

Revelation 20 mentions Christ reigning and believers being priests of God and Christ in His kingdom. Those things are mentioned elsewhere in scripture (1 Peter 2:5-9, Rev 1:5-6) as being something that has been true since the first coming of Christ. Revelation 20 also mentions the resurrection of the dead and the judgment. Those things are mentioned elsewhere in the New Testament as well.

But, there is absolutely no mention anywhere in the New Testament about a temporary earthly kingdom of Christ. The New Testament frequently mentions His spiritual kingdom that we are now in which did not come with observation (Luke 17:20) and is not of the world (John 18:36). But, nothing about an earthly kingdom.

Jesus said His kingdom does not come with observation and is not of this world and He never said that His kingdom would ever come with observation or be of this world. He will deliver His kingdom to the Father when He comes (Matt 13:36-43, 1 Cor 15:22-24) and the kingdom will then be on the new earth.

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