A little season

Spiritual Jew · Dec 17, 2020

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
No and I think you know that I have not because I did mention already that it seems to me he was enraged when he was cast out of heaven because he knew that all he was going to have was a little season - and I spoke about two little seasons, once before the thousand years (at the close of the Age when the beast ascends out of the abyss and Satan rules through the beast), and once at the close of the thousand years which follow, when Satan is released again for a little season ( the mikros chronos spoken of in Revelation 20:3)

Do you admit that in order to combine the above mention of Satan's little season in Revelation 20:3 with his short time at the end of this Age (when as the destroyer and king of the demonic forces that come out of the abyss, he deceives the whole world using the false prophet), you have to mentally insert thousands of years into Revelation 20 when you read the text which says a thousand years?

Okay, I see what you're saying now, but I don't believe it makes any sense. Did you forget that the Greek words translated as "short time" in Revelation 12:12 are different than the Greek words translated as "little season" in Revelation 20:3? Why are you acting like they mean the same thing?

Again, you agree with me that Satan was cast out of heaven long ago when Jesus ascended there.
It is immediately after he was cast out of heaven where it says "Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time." (Rev 12:12).

Here is where we differ on that "short time". I believe it was immediately after he was cast out of heaven that the "short time" began when he started to "make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ" (Rev 12:17).

If you read the book of Acts you should see that the persecution of believers began in earnest after the ascension of Christ beginning with the famous stoning of Stephen. Paul (Saul at the time) had a big hand in the persecution of the first Christians. And history shows that the persecution of the church was severe in the first century and there has been a lot of persecution of believers in the world ever since.

I’m wondering if you understood what I said in post #4 about my understanding of the “short time”. I’m going to repeat here part of what I said there regarding the “short time” mentioned in Revelation 12:12.

The Greek word translated as "short" there is oligos and that word can be used to refer to a relatively small number or a limited number rather than a literally small number. Here is the best example of that I could find:

Matthew 22:14 For many are called, but few (Greek: oligos) are chosen.

This is what Jesus said after telling the parable where he compared entering the kingdom of heaven (being saved) with being invited to a wedding banquet. The ones initially invited (the Jews) mostly rejected the invitation and then the invitation went out to the highways (Gentile nations) after that and many (a multitude) end up being invited.

So, what Jesus was saying there was that many are called/invited to salvation and few are chosen/saved. Therefore, we know that even though few are chosen the number of which are chosen/saved is actually a large number (many millions or however many it is). It's just relatively few compared to the overall "many" who are called.

So, with that in mind, I believe that the "short time" of Revelation 12:12 is only meant to be understood as a relatively (but not literally) short and limited amount of time. Satan knows that his time is limited and that Christ defeated Him and that he can't accuse believers before God in heaven anymore, and he is aware of what Revelation 20:10 says about his destiny, and he's angry about all of that.

The above is what I said in post #4 and then I went on to contrast the “short time”, which is not a literal short amount of time but rather an undefined, limited amount of time, with the “little season” which, based on the Greek words that is translated from, is a literal short amount of time. Do you see my point?

Zao is life · Dec 17, 2020

Spiritual Jew said:
Okay, I see what you're saying now.

At last. I was answering the assertion you made, not arguing Amil/Premil but only arguing about that assertion.

Spiritual Jew said:
..but I don't believe it makes any sense. Did you forget that the Greek words translated as "short time" in Revelation 12:12 are different than the Greek words translated as "little season" in Revelation 20:3?

Why shouldn't they be different if his short time at the end of this Age is a thousand years before his little season at the close of the thousand years?

Spiritual Jew said:
Why are you acting like they mean the same thing?

I'm not - because as you said, I already said that I do not believe that Satan's 'short time' mentioned in Revelation 12:12 refers to the entire Age, from Calvary-the parousia of Christ. (you could be correct that it refers to the entire Age) - but whether or not it does, is besides the point of whether or not his 'little season' mentioned in Revelation 20:3 is the same as the 42 months which will come when Satan, as the destroying king ruling over the demonic forces that come out of the opened abyss, gives the beast ascended out of the same abyss his seat, power and great authority.

Whether or not we believe that Satan's 'little season' mentioned in Revelation 20:3 is the same as the 42 months which he will have in-between [the opening of the abyss at the end of this Age] and [the parousia of Christ], would depend on whether or not we're Amil or Premil.

If I'm Amil, I would be combining the two periods (Revelation 20:3 and the 42 month reign of the beast) into one and the same 'little season' of Satan (because don't forget that Revelation 20:3 has Satan's 'little season' as occurring at the close of the thousand years).

If I'm Premil then the two periods are not one and the same period, and this will explain why Revelation 20:3 and Revelation 12:12 use different words, whether or not Revelation 12:12 is referring to this entire Age or to the close of this Age.

So not wanting to go into an Amil/Premil debate with you again, I sought to only answer your assertion by pointing out to you that it's only true to say there is only one little season mentioned for Satan if you combine Revelation 20:3 with the events Revelation tells us will take place at the close of this age (the Amil way of seeing things).

Zao is life · Dec 17, 2020

@Spiritual Jew What you said in this part of your post quoted below is what prompted me to answer the assertion made below:

Spiritual Jew said:
However, if I'm understanding you correctly from what you said at the end of your post, do you realize that what you're saying means that you believe Satan will be given 2 future little seasons to wreak havoc on the world? One would be a little season to wreak havoc just before the return of Christ and the other being a thousand years later? What is the reason that Satan would be given 2 future little seasons to wreak havoc on the world unrestrained instead of just one as Amil believes?

So I've answered that. I never said anything about this:

Spiritual Jew said:
But, what you said at the end here, which was "all he can do is to go around deceiving as best he knows how...for now" is interesting because that is how Amil understands the nature of his binding. His binding means he is restrained from stopping the spread of the gospel rather than being unable to do anything.

"Deceiving":

Revelation 20:3 & 7-8
And he cast him into the abyss and shut him up and set a seal on him, that he should deceive the nations no more until the thousand years should be fulfilled. And after that he must be loosed a little time.

And when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be loosed out of his prison. And he will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle. The number of them is as the sand of the sea.

So the text of Revelation links the binding to preventing Satan from deceiving. So if I say that all he can do until he is given the key to the abyss to open it, is to go around deceiving as best he knows how, then that remains faithful to the text of Revelation 20 which I quoted above.

Spiritual Jew · Dec 17, 2020

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
At last. I was answering the assertion you made, not arguing Amil/Premil but only arguing about that assertion.

Why shouldn't they be different if his short time at the end of this Age is a thousand years before his little season at the close of the thousand years?

That isn't the reason for me as an Amil, of course. To me they are different because the "short time" is not a literal short amount of time, as I've explained twice now, but the little season is a literal short amount of time. And I base that on the meaning of the Greek words used for "short time" compared to "little season". And, also on the belief that Satan was cast out of heaven long ago and that the "short time" began back then.

I'm not - because as you said, I already said that I do not believe that Satan's 'short time' mentioned in Revelation 12:12 refers to the entire Age, from Calvary-the parousia of Christ. (you could be correct that it refers to the entire Age) - but whether or not it does, is besides the point of whether or not his 'little season' mentioned in Revelation 20:3 is the same as the 42 months which will come when Satan, as the destroying king ruling over the demonic forces that come out of the opened abyss, gives the beast ascended out of the same abyss his seat, power and great authority.

Show me where in Revelation 13, which I know you are referencing here because of the mention of 42 months, says that the beast comes out of the opened abyss. I see what it mentions him coming out of the sea, but not out of the abyss. Why would it say he comes out of the sea if he's coming out of the abyss there? When John meant to refer to the beast coming out of the abyss he specifically mentioned it coming of the abyss in Revelation 11:7 and Revelation 17:8. So, why not in Revelation 13:1 if he was intending to say that he saw the beast ascending out of the abyss there? Instead, he saw the beast ascending out of the sea.

Whether or not we believe that Satan's 'little season' mentioned in Revelation 20:3 is the same as the 42 months which he will have in-between [the opening of the abyss at the end of this Age] and [the parousia of Christ], would depend on whether or not we're Amil or Premil.

If I'm Amil, I would be combining the two periods (Revelation 20:3 and the 42 month reign of the beast) into one and the same 'little season' of Satan (because don't forget that Revelation 20:3 has Satan's 'little season' as occurring at the close of the thousand years).

But, I'm Amil and I don't do that. You are trying to force your understanding of the 42 months on Amils. But, I don't have to accept your literal interpretation of the 42 months. I believe it is figurative.

Both the short time and the figurative 42 months focus more on the dragon and his beast making war with the saints. That's why I equate those. The little season has its focus more on Satan attempting to "deceive the nations (Greek: ethnos - would be better translated as heathen there) and unite them in opposition to the church. Remember, it doesn't say that Satan is bound from making war with the saints, it says he is bound from "deceiving the nations (ethnos)".

Now, for you to understand how I came to this conclusion, I need you to first tell me your understanding of the 42 months and 1260 days mentioned in Revelation 11:2-3. Do you see the reference to the 42 months and 1260 days in Revelation 11:2-3 as being the same time period as the 42 months mentioned in Revelation 13:5? I do. If that is the case then when we look at Revelation 11:7 we can see that the beast does not ascend out of the abyss until AFTER the 1260 day testimony of the two witnesses comes to an end. And then it mentions a 3.5 day time period after that (Rev 11:9). I equate that with Satan's little season rather than the 42 months/1260 days.

If the 1260 days and 42 months are the same time period then that would mean you have the beast ascending out of the abyss BEFORE the 42 months/1260 days rather than AFTER as Revelation 11:7 indicates. Please tell me your thoughts on all of this because it's a key to understanding the timing of things in the book of Revelation.

If I'm Premil then the two periods are not one and the same period, and this will explain why Revelation 20:3 and Revelation 12:12 use different words, whether or not Revelation 12:12 is referring to this entire Age or to the close of this Age.

But they are not one and the same time period to me, either. You don't have to be Amil to believe that.

So not wanting to go into an Amil/Premil debate with you again, I sought to only answer your assertion by pointing out to you that it's only true to say there is only one little season mentioned for Satan if you combine Revelation 20:3 with the events Revelation tells us will take place at the close of this age (the Amil way of seeing things).

This is based on your assumption that the 42 months are 42 literal months AND your assumption that the thousand years occurs after the second coming of Christ. I disagree with both assumptions.

I also don't recall you explaining exactly why Satan would be allowed to have 2 future little seasons to wreak havoc on the world unrestrained. At least, not in any way that I could understand.

Spiritual Jew · Dec 17, 2020

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
@Spiritual Jew What you said in this part of your post quoted below is what prompted me to answer the assertion made below:

So I've answered that. I never said anything about this:

"Deceiving":

Revelation 20:3 & 7-8
And he cast him into the abyss and shut him up and set a seal on him, that he should deceive the nations no more until the thousand years should be fulfilled. And after that he must be loosed a little time.

And when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be loosed out of his prison. And he will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle. The number of them is as the sand of the sea.

So the text of Revelation links the binding to preventing Satan from deceiving. So if I say that all he can do until he is given the key to the abyss to open it, is to go around deceiving as best he knows how, then that remains faithful to the text of Revelation 20 which I quoted above.

First of all, where are you seeing that Satan is given the key to the abyss to open it? It never says that.

Also, can you elaborate on what you're talking about when you mention him going "around deceiving as best as he knows how"? I don't know what you mean by that. And when exactly do you believe he goes "around deceiving as best as he knows how"?

Zao is life · Dec 17, 2020

DavidPT said:
Revelation 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Revelation 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

What is in question here, is the little season meant in Revelation 6:11 the same little season meant in Revelation 20:3? If they are, and can be shown that they are, that could only mean one thing, this debunks Premil, thus proves Amil sinnce Premil couldn't possibly work if the little season in both verses are speaking of the same era of time. No one would argue that the little season meant in Revelation 6:11 is meaning during a time post the 2nd coming. It is obviously meaning a time prior to the 2nd coming. And if the little season in the latter is the same little season in the former, that obviously means Premil can't work.

I tend to think these are not the same little season, thus two eras of time that happen at different times, and will try and show some reasons why I conclude this.

If we start with Revelation 6:11, what should be noted is this, this same little season the souls in heaven are told to rest during, this little season is also in effect back on earth, where during it the following occurs---their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be fulfilled. Now we have to look for Scriptures showing how and when these in question are killed, keeping in mind that a little season obviously implies a short period of time as opposed to a long period of time. For example, in Revelation 20 there are two eras of time in view, a thousand years and a little season. No one should remotely think the little season represents an era of time equal to or greater than a thousand years. No one should remotely think the little season parallels the thousand years, the fact the text makes it crystal clear that the thousand years has a starting and ending point, and that it is not until it's ending point that the little season begins.

As to the little season in Revelation 6:11, since we are looking for Scriptures speaking of a short period of time as opposed to a long period of time, it seems to me that Revelation 13:5 has the short era of time that we are seeking.

Revelation 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

42 months compared to a thousand years, for instance, would certainly be a shorter period of time. Another place where we see a possible short period of time as opposed to a long period of time is per the following.

Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Let's entertain the idea of Amil for a moment. If Amils believe this short time began 2000 years ago, and most of them do, if not all of them, and that they also think this little season in Revelation 6:11 parallels this past 2000 years, what they have done is turn a short period of time into a long period of time. Revelation 20 already proves that a thousand years is a greater period of time than a little season is, and that this little season can never parallel the time of this thousand years, yet Amils apparently think the little season meant in Revelation 6:11 is a long period of time rather than a short period of time if they have this same little season paralleing the past two thousand years, where this past 2000 years is meaning the thousand years in Revelation 20 to them.

Like I have pointed out numerous times in the past, Amil consists of one contradiction after another, too many to keep up with. I probably shouldn't have said that since this will likely be the main focus of my post by them, how dare I suggest Amil consists of one contradiction after another. It's not like I'm just saying it without showing why, and continue to show why as I type out this OP.

The following is one of the main reasons why the little season meant in Revelation 6:11 can't be the same little season meant in Revelation 20.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Let's focus on this part---and I saw the souls of them---which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands. The fact we are already told this before satan is ever loosed after the thousand years, this obviously means these saints are martyred during a time prior to the thousand years expiring. That means one of two things. Either they are martyred during a period of time before the thousand years begin, or they are martyred during the thousand years. There are no other choices. It has to be one of these.

It is obvious that when they are martyred it is meaning during the following period of time---their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled--where we are told that that happens during a little season. And the fact Revelastion 20 shows that a little season can never parallel the thousand years, the same has to be true in this case, thus telling us that the little season these are mayrtyred during is before the thousand years begin since it can't be during the thousand years nor after.

Clearly, the martyrs recorded in Revelation 20:4---which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands---are martyred during the events recorded in Revelation 13, which obviously means the beast has to ascend out of the pit first, before any of these recorded in Revelation 20:4---which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands---can even be martyred for the reasons they are martyred. They are martyred because they refused to worship the beast that had ascended out of the bottomless pit. This exposes yet another contradiction in Amil, since Amils insist that the beast doesn't ascend out of the pit until after the thousand years expire, regardless that Revelation 20:4 and everything else I presented proves that is not even remotely true.

This OP ended up lengthier than I planned. I better stop here. I have shown reasons why these little seasons happen in different eras of time. Those that might disagree, thus conclude they are referring to the same era of time, need to show why and how that is so.

I've come a lot closer to grasping what you were saying than I was earlier, so I'm going to post the scriptures and Greek words pertinent to your post here:

(A) "And white robes were given to each one of them. And it was said to them that they should rest yet for mikrós chrónos (a little season), until both their fellow servants and their brothers (those about to be killed as they were) should have their number made complete." Revelation 6:11

(B) "And the beast which I saw was like a leopard, and its feet like those of a bear, and its mouth like the mouth of a lion. And the dragon gave him its power and its seat and great authority." (Revelation 13:2) "And a mouth speaking great things was given to it, and blasphemies. And authority was given to it to continue forty-two months." (Revelation 13:5). "And it was given to it to war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given to it over every tribe and tongue and nation." (Revelation 13:7) "And there was given to it to give a spirit to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast might both speak, and might cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed." (Revelation 13:15).

(C) "And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the Word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast nor his image, nor had received his mark on their foreheads, nor in their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. The second death has no authority over these, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him a thousand years." (Revelation 20:4-6).

(D) "And he cast him (Satan) into the abyss and shut him up and set a seal on him, that he should deceive the nations no more until the thousand years should be fulfilled. And after that he must be loosed mikrós chrónos (a little season)." (Revelation 20: 3).

"And when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be loosed out of his prison. And he will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle. The number of them is as the sand of the sea." (Revelation 20:7-8).

BACK TO THE START OF THE CHURCH AGE

(E) "Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and those tabernacling in them. Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and in the sea! For the Devil came down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has but olígos (a limited) time."

James 4:14
Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for olígos (a little) time, and then vanisheth away.

1 Peter 1:6
Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for olígos (a season), if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations.

Mark 1:19
And when he had gone olígos (a little further) thence, he saw James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother, who also were in the ship mending their nets.

From what I can see, olígos, when relating to time, can best be translated into modern English as "a limited period of time", whereas mikrós denotes a small or short period of time - and the 42 months of the reign of the beast at the close of this Age is exactly that; and the small period for which the souls under the altar were told to CONTINUE to rest, is exactly that; and the release of Satan after the thousand years is likewise exactly that. mikrós is not merely denoting a limited period of time, but a small or short period of time (such as 42 months).

So
1. If Amils as you say have this mikros period of time of Revelation 6:11 [during which the souls under the altar are told that they should yet rest] linked to the olígos (limited) period of time which has existed since Satan was cast out of heaven and down to the earth, then this to my mind, is incorrect.

2. If however they have this mikros period of time of Revelation 6:11 linked to the 42-months reign of the beast, then this is correct.

3. If they have this mikros period of time in Revelation 6:11 linked to the same mikros period of time during which Satan has his little season at the close of the thousand years (Revelation 20:3), then this is also incorrect, because the martyred souls were martyred by the false prophet at the close of Satan's olígos (limited) period of time during this current Age, during the 42 months of the reign of the beast, and they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years following this, having had part in the first resurrection - the same period of time during which Satan was bound, because these martyred souls could not have begun their thousand-year reign with Christ at the close of the same thousand years.

So that's how I see it, and that's what I now believe you are trying to convey in your OP?

DavidPT · Dec 17, 2020

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
I've come a lot closer to grasping what you were saying than I was earlier, so I'm going to post the scriptures and Greek words pertinent to your post here:

(A) "And white robes were given to each one of them. And it was said to them that they should rest yet for mikrós chrónos (a little season), until both their fellow servants and their brothers (those about to be killed as they were) should have their number made complete." Revelation 6:11

(B) "And the beast which I saw was like a leopard, and its feet like those of a bear, and its mouth like the mouth of a lion. And the dragon gave him its power and its seat and great authority." (Revelation 13:2) "And a mouth speaking great things was given to it, and blasphemies. And authority was given to it to continue forty-two months." (Revelation 13:5). "And it was given to it to war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given to it over every tribe and tongue and nation." (Revelation 13:7) "And there was given to it to give a spirit to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast might both speak, and might cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed." (Revelation 13:15).

(C) "And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the Word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast nor his image, nor had received his mark on their foreheads, nor in their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. The second death has no authority over these, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him a thousand years." (Revelation 20:4-6).

(D) "And he cast him (Satan) into the abyss and shut him up and set a seal on him, that he should deceive the nations no more until the thousand years should be fulfilled. And after that he must be loosed mikrós chrónos (a little season)." (Revelation 20: 3).

"And when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be loosed out of his prison. And he will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle. The number of them is as the sand of the sea." (Revelation 20:7-8).

BACK TO THE START OF THE CHURCH AGE

(E) "Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and those tabernacling in them. Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and in the sea! For the Devil came down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has but olígos (a limited) time."

James 4:14
Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for olígos (a little) time, and then vanisheth away.

1 Peter 1:6
Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for olígos (a season), if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations.

Mark 1:19
And when he had gone olígos (a little further) thence, he saw James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother, who also were in the ship mending their nets.

From what I can see, olígos, when relating to time, can best be translated into modern English as "a limited period of time", whereas mikrós denotes a small or short period of time - and the 42 months of the reign of the beast at the close of this Age is exactly that; and the small period for which the souls under the altar were told to CONTINUE to rest, is exactly that; and the release of Satan after the thousand years is likewise exactly that. mikrós is not merely denoting a limited period of time, but a small or short period of time (such as 42 months).

So
1. If Amils as you say have this mikros period of time of Revelation 6:11 [during which the souls under the altar are told that they should yet rest] linked to the olígos (limited) period of time which has existed since Satan was cast out of heaven and down to the earth, then this to my mind, is incorrect.

2. If however they have this mikros period of time of Revelation 6:11 linked to the 42-months reign of the beast, then this is correct.

3. If they have this mikros period of time in Revelation 6:11 linked to the same mikros period of time during which Satan has his little season at the close of the thousand years (Revelation 20:3), then this is also incorrect, because the martyred souls were martyred by the false prophet at the close of Satan's olígos (limited) period of time during this current Age, during the 42 months of the reign of the beast, and they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years following this, having had part in the first resurrection - the same period of time during which Satan was bound, because these martyred souls could not have begun their thousand-year reign with Christ at the close of the same thousand years.

So that's how I see it, and that's what I now believe you are trying to convey in your OP?

Why can't there be others like you around here? It would make life a little bit easier for me at times since I'm typically being more misunderstood than I am being understood a lot of the time. You nailed it in this post.

As to my point about the short time in Revelation 12, all I was trying to show was, though the little season is also a short time in comparison to a long time, such as a thousand years, and though it obviously occurs during satan's short time, it does not involve every minute of satan's short time, but only involves the final 42 months of his short time. I have zero problem with satan's short time beginning at the ascension. I tend to think it likely did. And if this short time involves another 2000 years, assuming it began 2000 years ago, that is still a short time in comparison to the longer time involving satan prior to him being cast out of heaven.

The reason I only focus on some martyrs recorded in Revelation 20:4, and not all martyrs recorded in verse 4 is because of the following.

and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands

that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God--this doesn't also say they had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, etc. And if any of these are meaning someone like John the Baptist, the fact he was literally beheaded, this would be contradicting the following if it is being applied to him as well---which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands. The beast meant here does not ascend out of the pit before John in the book of Revelation received his visions, the beast ascends out of the pit post that time, and that John the baptist was martyred before John received these visions, and besides, John indicated that the beast is not when he received these visions.

Zao is life · Dec 17, 2020

Spiritual Jew said:
To me they are different because the "short time" is not a literal short amount of time, as I've explained twice now, but the little season is a literal short amount of time. And I base that on the meaning of the Greek words used for "short time" compared to "little season". And, also on the belief that Satan was cast out of heaven long ago and that the "short time" began back then.

In Post #86 I show why I believe that's Satan's limited time (Revelation 12:12) which began when he was cast out of heaven and lasts for the entire Age, ends with his short time, which is the 42 month reign of the beast.

I don't have to be right about it. I'm definitely not arguing about what you believe, but Post #86 shows why I disagree with you. I posted that before coming to post this.

Spiritual Jew said:
Show me where in Revelation 13, which I know you are referencing here because of the mention of 42 months, says that the beast comes out of the opened abyss. I see what it mentions him coming out of the sea, but not out of the abyss. Why would it say he comes out of the sea if he's coming out of the abyss there? When John meant to refer to the beast coming out of the abyss he specifically mentioned it coming of the abyss in Revelation 11:7 and Revelation 17:8. So, why not in Revelation 13:1 if he was intending to say that he saw the beast ascending out of the abyss there? Instead, he saw the beast ascending out of the sea.

* Revelation 12's dragon has seven heads and ten horns, and each head has a crown on it.
* In Revelation 13 the dragon gives the beast ascended out of the sea his seat, power and great authority - and now there are ten crowns on the ten horns.
* In Revelation 17 each head has a king (the dragon's seven heads each had a crown on it).
"And the ten horns which you saw are ten kings, who have received no kingdom yet, but will receive authority as kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and they will give their power and authority to the beast." (Revelation 17:12-13)

Chapter 17 says that this beast will rise from the abyss and go to perdition. Chapter 13 says that this beast will rise from the sea, and chapter 19 says it will be destroyed by Christ. Chapter 17 says it will war against the Lamb and the Lamb will overcome him, and chapter 16 says it will gather its armies for Armageddon. Chapter 19 says Christ will overcome it and throw it and its false prophet (mentioned again in chapter 13) into the lake of fire. The three chapters together most certainly seem to me to be talking about the same powers in the world, and chapter 13 and 17 seem to me to be talking about the same ten kings.

Chapter 13 says he will be controlled by Satan and chapter 17 says he will ascend from out of the abyss. I can't see how this is NOT telling us about the same beast - the beast that ascends from out of the abyss is controlled by Satan, the destroying king of the armies ascended from out of the abyss, and Revelation 13 says the beast will be controlled by Satan.

You may see different beasts controlled by Satan being spoken of in the Revelation, but I only see one. IMO (and for the reasons given above) Revelation 13 telling us it will ascend out of the sea is just giving us more information about the same beast that Revelation 17 says will ascend out of the abyss. So IMO opinion chapter 13 tells us that it will rise from out of the Gentile nations and be controlled by Satan and chapter 17 tells us it will ascend from out of the abyss. One and the same beast that will be controlled by Satan. Same beast, same ten kings, some info on it given in chapter 13 and some more info given on it in chapter 17, which also introduces another actor in the final scene - the harlot city.

Spiritual Jew said:
Do you see the reference to the 42 months and 1260 days in Revelation 11:2-3 as being the same time period as the 42 months mentioned in Revelation 13:5? I do.

I also do.

Spiritual Jew said:
If that is the case then when we look at Revelation 11:7 we can see that the beast does not ascend out of the abyss until AFTER the 1260 day testimony of the two witnesses comes to an end. And then it mentions a 3.5 day time period after that (Rev 11:9). I equate that with Satan's little season rather than the 42 months/1260 days.

Why do you make that assumption? There's nothing in the text of Revelation 11:1-7 to prompt you to assume that the beast that martyrs the two witnesses will only rise from the abyss just before it martyrs the two witnesses. Moses and Aaron were the two witnesses to Pharaoh who turned the waters to blood etc, and while this was taking place, Pharaoh was persecuting God's people in Egypt, relenting for brief periods when God softened his heart, and tightening the screws of his persecution of God's people more and more whenever God hardened his heart again.

All the time while this was going on Pharaoh was persecuting God's people in Egypt, and the two witnesses God sent to Pharaoh were bringing plagues upon Egypt.

Revelation 11:10 tells us that the two witnesses will be hated and their dead bodies will be rejoiced over because up until the time that are killed, they had been tormenting the people living on the earth. The passage says they "have authority to shut up the heaven, that it may not rain in the days of their prophecy. And they have authority over waters to turn them to blood, and to strike the earth with every plague, as often as they desire." (Revelation 11:6).

I've heard this Amil belief about the beast "only ascending out of the abyss immediately before he kills the two witnesses" before you said it - but honestly, there is nothing in the text to prompt such an assumption, IMO, and IMO, it's a 100% false assumption - and there's more evidence from the Revelation proving what I say below:

Spiritual Jew said:
If the 1260 days and 42 months are the same time period then that would mean you have the beast ascending out of the abyss BEFORE the 42 months/1260 days rather than AFTER as Revelation 11:7 indicates.

as you can see from my reply above, not at all. The beast ascends out of the abyss/the sea. At the same time the two witnesses, who have been given power by God to perform miracles and bring plagues upon the earth, begin to prophesy - because NOW is the beginning of the last days:

Revelation 14
6 "And I saw another angel flying in mid-heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those dwelling on the earth, even to every nation and kindred and tongue and people,
7 saying with a great voice, Fear God and give glory to Him! For the hour of His judgment has come. And worship Him who made the heaven and the earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
8 And another angel followed, saying, The great city, Babylon, has fallen, has fallen; because of the wine of the anger of her fornication; she has made all nations to drink.
9 And a third angel followed them, saying with a great voice, If anyone worships the beast and its image, and receives a mark in his forehead or in his hand,
10 he also will drink of the wine of the anger of God, having been mixed undiluted in the cup of His wrath. And he will be tormented by fire and brimstone before the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb.
11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever. And they have no rest day or night, those who worship the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.
12 Here is the patience of the saints. Here are the ones who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.
13 And I heard a voice from Heaven saying to me, Write, Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on. Yes, says the Spirit, they shall rest from their labors, and their works follow them."

Immediately after the above part of the passage, we read about the harvest, and then the grapes of the wrath of God being poured out.

During the same 42-month period, Pharaoh (the beast) will be persecuting God's people. It does not have to be an "all in a day" thing. Pharaoh's heart was softened, then it was hardened, then it softened, then it hardened - and all the while, every time his heart was hardened again, he tightened the screws on God's people even more. Eventually, the judgment of Pharaoh's armies = the deliverance of God's people. Then it was passing through the sea, which is a type of the resurrection of the dead.

PS: I'm not trying to make you believe what I believe. I'm not trying to "force my opinions on Amil". If those who believe Amil take offense if I criticize the Amil view (because they take what should be an impersonal matter up personally), then I dunno - hopefully maybe one day someone will discover a pill for that.

Zao is life · Dec 17, 2020

DavidPT said:
Why can't there be others like you around here? It would make life a little bit easier for me at times since I'm typically being more misunderstood than I am being understood a lot of the time. You nailed it in this post.

As to my point about the short time in Revelation 12, all I was trying to show was, though the little season is also a short time in comparison to a long time, such as a thousand years, and though it obviously occurs during satan's short time, it does not involve every minute of satan's short time, but only involves the final 42 months of his short time. I have zero problem with satan's short time beginning at the ascension. I tend to think it likely did. And if this short time involves another 2000 years, assuming it began 2000 years ago, that is still a short time in comparison to the longer time involving satan prior to him being cast out of heaven.

The reason I only focus on some martyrs recorded in Revelation 20:4, and not all martyrs recorded in verse 4 is because of the following.

and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands

that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God--this doesn't also say they had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, etc. And if any of these are meaning someone like John the Baptist, the fact he was literally beheaded, this would be contradicting the following if it is being applied to him as well---which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands. The beast meant here does not ascend out of the pit before John in the book of Revelation received his visions, the beast ascends out of the pit post that time, and that John the baptist was martyred before John received these visions, and besides, John indicated that the beast is not when he received these visions.

I agree 100% with all of what you say above. Also, as you point out one of the keys to knowing whether Revelation 20 means a thousand years or thousands of years is the second part of the reason given in Revelation 20 as to why they were martyred, because the second part of the reason given as to why they were martyred also tells us who was responsible for their death when they were beheaded, and this in turn tells us when they were beheaded, and this in turn tells us whether they were reigning with Christ for "a thousand years" (ie thousands of years) since Calvary, or whether they will only reign with Christ for a thousand years following the time they had been martyred for refusal to worship the beast.

Spiritual Jew · Dec 17, 2020

DavidPT said:
Why can't there be others like you around here? It would make life a little bit easier for me at times since I'm typically being more misunderstood than I am being understood a lot of the time. You nailed it in this post.

Haven't you said yourself that you have trouble putting your thoughts into words when you're typing them out? With that being the case, why are you confused as to why people often misunderstand what you're saying?

Also, I put a lot of effort into understanding your original post and then I took a lot of time responding in post #4, but you're acting as if Fullness of the Gentiles is the only one who took the time to read it and try to understand it. I believe I do understand what you're trying to say. I just happen to disagree with it.

As to my point about the short time in Revelation 12, all I was trying to show was, though the little season is also a short time, in comparison to a long time, such as a thousand years, and though it obviously occurs during satan's short time, it does not involve every minute of satan's short time, but only involves the final 42 months of his short time. I have zero problem with satan's short time beginning at the ascension. I tend to think it likely did. And if this short time involves another 2000 years, assuming it began 2000 years, that is still a short time in comparison to the longer time involving satan prior to him being cast out of heaven.

The reason I only focus on some martyrs recorded in Revelation 20:4, and not all martyrs recorded in verse 4 is because of the following.

and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands

that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God--this doesn't also say they had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, etc. And if any of these are meaning someone like John the Baptist, the fact he was literally beheaded, this would be contradicting the following if it is being applied to him as well---which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands. The beast meant here does not ascend out of the pit before John in the book of Revelation received his visions, the beast ascends out of the pit post that time, and that John the baptist was martyred before John received these visions, and besides, John indicated that the beast is not when he received these visions.

I think one big key in understanding all of this is identifying the beast. You're saying a lot of things about the beast here, but never indicating your understanding of the beast. So, what do you believe is the identity of the beast? What does it mean when it says "the beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition" (Revelation 17:8)?

Zao is life · Dec 17, 2020

Spiritual Jew said:
Also, can you elaborate on what you're talking about when you mention him going "around deceiving as best as he knows how"? I don't know what you mean by that. And when exactly do you believe he goes "around deceiving as best as he knows how"?

You'll find it if you read the Lord's warnings to the churches regarding Satan and his activities in the world, and if you read His apostles' warnings regarding Satan and his activities in the world, and if you read what Paul said about Satan blinding the minds of those who do not believe the gospel, etc.

Would you like to read the scriptures and take heed when your taking heed to these warnings is what the warnings mean you to do, or would you like me to list them for you?

Spiritual Jew said:
First of all, where are you seeing that Satan is given the key to the abyss to open it? It never says that.

It doesn't call the star that fell from heaven who opens the abyss by name (Revelation 9:1-2). Many of those (though not all) who do NOT claim (falsely, IMO) that Satan was bound when he was cast out of heaven and down to earth, will understand that the star that fell from heaven is a reference to Satan.

I'm definitely not going to get into a debate about it with you - because it involves the whole Amil/Premil debate which I do not wish to get into with you again, so any further questions you ask will be ignored by me.

Accept that I believe that Satan was defeated at Calvary but not bound when he was cast out of heaven and down to the earth. Accept that I believe that the star that fell from heaven that opens the abyss is a reference to Satan.

Lastly, accept the fact that the reason you do not agree with me is because you do not believe Satan is on the outside of the Abyss right now, but on the inside, so you do not believe that Satan will open the abyss from the outside.

I'm not answering any more of your questions. You're Amil. It's useless. It will just eventually annoy us both.

Zao is life · Dec 17, 2020

Spiritual Jew said:
Haven't you said yourself that you have trouble putting your thoughts into words when you're typing them out? With that being the case, why are you confused as to why people often misunderstand what you're saying?

Also, I put a lot of effort into understanding your original post and then I took a lot of time responding in post #4, but you're acting as if Fullness of the Gentiles is the only one who took the time to read it and try to understand it. I believe I do understand what you're trying to say. I just happen to disagree with it.

I think one big key in understanding all of this is identifying the beast. You're saying a lot of things about the beast here, but never indicating your understanding of the beast. So, what do you believe is the identity of the beast? What does it mean when it says "the beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition" (Revelation 17:8)?

It's time people started shooting between 3 and 10 questions in a post at you and expecting you to reply to all the questions. It's a typical modus operandi of Amillennialists when they're trying to prove what they cannot prove - they start shooting questions to make sure the discussion only goes where they want it to go. It's almost as though they are trained like the JW's to push or 'force' the conclusions to come out the way they see it (in this case, the way Amil sees it). It's the same sort of modus operandi. Frankly, when people start shooting questions after questions like that, I smell the plan - and I find it very annoying and a little underhanded.

I'm beginning to be pretty convinced that Amills who debate here have been for training lessons on how to steer the debate and control it to force outcomes that do not truthfully reflect what the scriptures are saying. Just like Mormons and JW's, etc, Same debate style. Force conclusions out of the scriptures that you want to - and in the process, make underhanded remarks and complaints against other posters, like complain about the way they express themselves.

Suffice it to say, "I don't agree with what you are saying because..", or "this is the way I see it because.."

Merely shooting out questions designed to trap or force a conclusion you want the conclusion to be is a very distasteful debate style, IMO. Especially when you ignore the scriptures brought up by others when it makes it too complicated for your case.

sovereigngrace · Dec 17, 2020

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
It's time people started shooting between 3 and 10 questions in a post at you and expecting you to reply to all the questions. It's a typical modus operandi of Amillennialists when they're trying to prove what they cannot prove - they start shooting questions to make sure the discussion only goes where they want it to go. It's almost as though they are trained like the JW's to push or 'force' the conclusions to come out the way they see it (in this case, the way Amil sees it). It's the same sort of modus operandi. Frankly, when people start shooting questions after questions like that, I smell the plan - and I find it very annoying and a little underhanded.

The opposite is the truth. The sheepishness of Premils to answer any simple Amil questions is because Premils have no answers. The doctrine is totally uncorroborated by other Scripture. It is a private interpretation of one chapter in the most symbolic and obscure setting in Scripture. That is why it is crumbling.

Spiritual Jew · Dec 17, 2020

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
I agree 100% with all of what you say above. Also, as you point out one of the keys to knowing whether Revelation 20 means a thousand years or thousands of years is the second part of the reason given in Revelation 20 as to why they were martyred, because the second part of the reason given as to why they were martyred also tells us who was responsible for their death when they were beheaded, and this in turn tells us when they were beheaded, and this in turn tells us whether they were reigning with Christ for "a thousand years" (ie thousands of years) since Calvary, or whether they will only reign with Christ for a thousand years following the time they had been martyred for refusal to worship the beast.

I agree with all of this as well. I think the time has come for us to discuss the identity and nature of the beast. Also, we have to discuss what it means to be cast into the abyss, which we have discussed before regarding Satan.

My view is that when Satan is bound in the abyss, so is the beast. I don't know if we want to discuss all this in this thread or create a new thread discussing the identity of the beast and/or what it means to be in the abyss/bottomless pit.

Spiritual Jew · Dec 17, 2020

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
It's time people started shooting between 3 and 10 questions in a post at you and expecting you to reply to all the questions. It's a typical modus operandi of Amillennialists when they're trying to prove what they cannot prove - they start shooting questions to make sure the discussion only goes where they want it to go. It's almost as though they are trained like the JW's to push or 'force' the conclusions to come out the way they see it (in this case, the way Amil sees it). It's the same sort of modus operandi. Frankly, when people start shooting questions after questions like that, I smell the plan - and I find it very annoying and a little underhanded.

I'm beginning to be pretty convinced that Amills who debate here have been for training lessons on how to steer the debate and control it to force outcomes that do not truthfully reflect what the scriptures are saying. Just like Mormons and JW's, etc, Same debate style. Force conclusions out of the scriptures that you want to - and in the process, make underhanded remarks and complaints against other posters, like complain about the way they express themselves.

Suffice it to say, "I don't agree with what you are saying because..", or "this is the way I see it because.."

Merely shooting out questions designed to trap or force a conclusion you want the conclusion to be is a very distasteful debate style, IMO. Especially when you ignore the scriptures brought up by others when it makes it too complicated for your case.

What in the world are you talking about here? I have given extensive explanations for what I believe and why. I am not trying to steer anything. Your post is full of baseless accusations. And comparing us to Mormons and JWs? Are you just begging me to put you on ignore or something?

You and I were doing so well lately and now you have resorted back to your insulting style again. What gives? The reason I brought up the need to identify the beast is because I felt like we have already exhausted the discussion about the short time and little season. What more can we say about that? Are you just having a bad day or something? I did not do anything to deserve this type of response.

I am the last one who should be accused of ignoring scriptures. I go above and beyond to address every challenge and every scripture passage that is brought up as much as anyone on this forum.

DavidPT · Dec 17, 2020

Spiritual Jew said:
My view is that when Satan is bound in the abyss, so is the beast. I don't know if we want to discuss all this in this thread or create a new thread discussing the identity of the beast and/or what it means to be in the abyss/bottomless pit.

I'm perfectly fine with discussing all of this in this thread. IMO, it fits with the topic of this thread since the topic of this thread involves a little season, where we see there is one mentioned in Revelation 6 and also one mentioned in Revelation 20. But you are the one that needs to lead the discussion concerning this, since there are times when we should be listening and considering, rather than just debating these things without first considering that there might be more to some of these things that some of us are not taking into consideration.

Where I'm at right now, and where I have been for the longest, is that Revelation 20:4 proves to me, that because some of the saints have been martyred because they refused to worship the beast, this being before satan is ever loosed from the pit, that this means that the beast has to ascend out of the pit before any of these saints can be martyred for the reasons they are, therefore it making zero sense to me, according to Amil, that the beast doesn't even ascend out of the pit until the end of the thousand years. If that is true, how does one then logically explain how the saints recorded in Revelation 20:4 are martyred for refusing to worship the beast while it is still in the pit, IOW, 'is not' at the time? Plus, how can a mark on their right hand not involve a 2nd beast that rises out of the earth? How can a 2nd beast rise out of the earth unless a first one rises out of the sea first? I'm not bringing this up in order to debate this yet again right now. I'm only explaining where I'm currently at, and that unless what you can bring to the table solves what I see as a problem for Amil, I'll still be where I'm currently at, per my understanding of some of these things.

Spiritual Jew · Dec 17, 2020

DavidPT said:
I'm perfectly fine with discussing all of this in this thread. IMO, it fits with the topic of this thread since the topic of this thread involves a little season, where we see there is one mentioned in Revelation 6 and also one mentioned in Revelation 20. But you are the one that needs to lead the discussion concerning this, since there are times when we should be listening and considering, rather than just debating these things without first considering that there might be more to some of these things that some of us are not taking into consideration.

Okay, I'll get things started then. After the response I received from Fullness of the Gentiles, being falsely accused of trying to steer the discussion away from where you wanted, it makes me question if it would be worth my time and effort to do it, but I will, anyway, since you seem fine with it.

Where I'm at right now, and where I have been for the longest, is that Revelation 20:4 proves to me, that because some of the saints have been martyred because they refused to worship the beast, this being before satan is ever loosed from the pit, that this means that the beast has to ascend out of the pit before any of these saints can be martyred for the reasons they are, therefore it making zero sense to me, according to Amil, that the beast doesn't even ascend out of the pit until the end of the thousand years. If that is true, how does one then logically explain how the saints recorded in Revelation 20:4 are martyred for refusing to worship the beast while it is still in the pit, IOW, 'is not' at the time?

Do you have any evidence to show that the beast ascending from the sea is equivalent to the beast ascending from the abyss/bottomless pit? Why did John say he saw the beast ascending out of the sea instead of the abyss/bottomless pit in Revelation 13? He referenced the beast ascending from the pit specifically in Rev 11:7 and Rev 17:8, so why not Rev 13 as well? There must be a difference between "the sea" and the pit, so it's worth thinking about what that might be.

I have actually explained this before, but maybe you didn't see it. The beast is a global entity which all whose names are not written in the book of life worship (Rev 13:8). I take that literally to mean all whose names are not written in the book of life from all-time worship the beast. I believe The beast represents the anti-God, anti-Christ world at any given time in history. So, to me, unbelievers have always worshiped the beast. And the dragon and beast always work hand in hand (Rev 13:4). So, if the beast is in the pit, so is Satan. And if the beast ascends from the pit, so does Satan. Being in the pit has to do with restraint rather than being chained down and rendered completely immobile. Being out of the pit relates to being unrestrained.

Plus, how can a mark on their right hand not involve a 2nd beast that rises out of the earth? How can a 2nd beast rise out of the earth unless a first one rises out of the sea first? I'm not bringing this up in order to debate this yet again right now. I'm only explaining where I'm currently at, and that unless what you can bring to the table solves what I see as a problem for Amil, I'll still be where I'm currently at, per my understanding of some of these things.

I see the mark of the beast as being the opposite of the seal of God. Believers are all figuratively sealed with the Holy Spirit, so I believe all whose names are not written in the book of life have the figurative mark of the beast and that has always been the case.

The book of Revelation is not a futurist book and not a preterist book. In relation to the time the book was written, it describes things that were, things that are, and things that would be after the book was written up until the second coming of Christ and the ushering in of the new heavens and new earth.

Revelation 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

Preterists see it as speaking of things that are and would soon happen and that's it. Futurists see it as speaking of things in the distant future from when it was written. Neither is correct. It speaks of things that happened before (such as the birth and ascension of Christ in Revelation 12:5), things that were happening then, such as the things described relating to the first century churches of the old province of Asia in Revelation 2 and 3, and things that would be ongoing from the time the book was written until the end of time into eternity.

Timtofly · Dec 17, 2020

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
I think that the Christian who assumes that his understanding of eschatology is 100% correct when his understanding differs from thousands of others, has probably only got his eschatology 10% correct. And since this is talking about nearly every Christian, it means that Christians only have 10% understanding of what God is saying when it comes to eschatology.

How is it my fault that there was 1990 years between the child leaving earth and the last 42 months of the tribulation?

Zao is life · Dec 18, 2020

Timtofly said:
How is it my fault that there was 1990 years between the child leaving earth and the last 42 months of the tribulation?

IMO Genesis 3:15; Revelation 12:9, 12 & 17 and Revelation 13:7 makes it clear that the dragon's war against the woman and her seed is an ongoing thing that will only be brought to an end by the Lord's destruction of the beast and binding of Satan.

Spiritual Jew · Dec 18, 2020

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
You asked me the exact same question, and though I gave you the answer which showed your fallacy, you flatly ignored the answer, did not reply to it, obviously had no intention of replying to my answer (nor even acknowledging it), then here you ask another Pre-mil the same questions. So the question arises: Does this mean that if David's answer does not meet with your approval (in that it proves the fallacy of your reasoning), you will flatly ignore David's answer and refuse to even acknowledge it too?

You have gone off the rails. I have responded to 99% of your posts to me, but I didn't reply to that one in particular so that means I'm ignoring you? Give me a break. That is nonsense and you know it.

So even though you were speaking to David in the post above and below, nevertheless because you ignored the answer I gave you to the same question and never even had the courtesy to acknowledge it, I'm going to repeat again in the rest of my post below the utter fallacy of your belief that the beast spoken of in Revelation 13 and the beast spoken of in Revelation 17 are not the same beast, and the utter fallacy of all of your reasoning regarding the beast of the Revelation.

Let me first say though that this is what I mean when I complain about your debate style. You ask questions, then when you receive answers, you say nothing about the reply, do not even acknowledge it, and then merely shoot out a list of more questions based on your own reasoning and on the same misinterpretations of scripture which are produced by your other misinterpretations of scripture, and which produced the questions you previously asked, the answers to which you flatly ignore when they do not suit your fallacies.

That is exactly what you and many other premils do frequently. It's very ironic for you to make this critcism towards Amils.

I respond directly to what people say as much as anyone on this forum and this is what I get for that? Did I not respond extensively already to the topic of this thread (the short time of Rev 12:12 compared to the little season mentioned in Rev 6:11 and Rev 20:3)? Yes, I did. And, you're acting like I am ignoring what he said and trying to change the topic? No, I am not. David himself did not have a problem with what I said, so why do you?

Name one person who has tried to respond to what he said directly more than I have. I only brought up the idea of identifying the beast because I believe that would help us determine the timing of the little season and the 42 months. What is wrong with that?

Since you have decided to respond to me this way, I am just putting you on ignore because it's not worth my time to talk to someone who can't handle disagreement without having a meltdown.

A little season

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