Poll: When Are The Orthodox Jews Saved?

When will the orthodox Jews in Jerusalem be saved?

  • Never, for they already rejected Jesus and thus The Gospel.

    Votes: 1 10.0%
  • The are condemned already for not believing on Jesus Christ.

    Votes: 4 40.0%
  • When Satan as the Antichrist comes.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • When the "fullness of the Gentiles" is complete on the day of Christ's return.

    Votes: 5 50.0%

  • Total voters
    10

Douggg

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The text of Jeremiah 31:31-34 is quoted word-for-word by the author of the Book of Hebrews within Hebrews 8:6-13, and the first verse starts with the word "now".

Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.


Any unbiased witness would say this shows the fulfillment of Jeremiah 31:31-34.
However, you are not an unbiased witness because this passage kills Dispensational Theology.
Therefore, you continue to be in that river in Egypt up past your eyeballs.
You are in denial.



.
Who are the 70 weeks determined upon, and has Jerusalem said regarding Jesus blessed is he who come in the name of the Lord, indicating the new covenant has been received by the Jews, en masse? There are 14 million Jews worldwide.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Evidently, there's some on this Forum that believe all those born into this world that did not believe on Jesus Christ during this present world are to perish at His 2nd coming.

God's Word does not teach any such thing, as Zechariah 14 with those who came up against Jerusalem are left over into Christ's future reign, and are made to go up and worship Him from year to year. Likewise, per Revelation 3:9, Jesus said He will make those of the "synagogue of Satan" come worship at the feet of His elect in the future, for that has never... happened to this day.

Wouldn't this contradict Matthew 7:21 and Luke 12:10?
 
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Guojing

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The two witnesses preach in the city where their Lord was crucified.
I disagree with you. I don't hold to a pretrib gathering. It is known that the beast will make war with the saints. We read in the 1st resurrection of those beheaded because they refused to worship the beast and remained faithful to Jesus.

42 months those days were shortened for the sake of the elect.
It was given power to wage war against God's holy people and to conquer them. And it was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation

This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus.

But your last sentence is saying that its not just faith in Jesus alone that will save during the Tribulation right?

You have to keep the commandments too, and there are plenty of them to keep during the Tribulation, not just rejecting the mark of the beast.
 
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Guojing

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The Capital "C" Church as we use the word today is not found in the entire Book of Revelation.
Individual church bodies in ancient Asia Minor are found.

The passage below also proves you are wrong.


Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

A person cannot be under the blood of the Lamb and not be a part of Christ's Church.


Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.


Nobody has ever been, or ever will be, saved by their own works.

Gal 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
Gal 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.


Who brought the Scofield Reference Bible to Singapore?

.

Paul's salvation doctrine won't apply in the Tribulation which is the age to come, just like the Law of Moses is no longer applicable for us in but now time period, but it did apply in time past.

Anyway, no one is saying here you are saved by works in the age to come, but rather you need to show your faith by your works which is what James is saying in James 2. It is ultimately your faith that saves you.
 
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Guojing

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Absolutely not.

A person is saved by His sacrifice at Calvary.

A person's faith must be based on what He has already done, instead of anything we could do.

.

Yes, what I meant is faith in what God commanded.

When he command us not to take the mark of the beast during the Tribulation, otherwise we will not be saved, we show our faith by obeying him there.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Paul's salvation doctrine won't apply in the Tribulation which is the age to come, just like the Law of Moses is no longer applicable for us in but now time period, but it did apply in time past.

Anyway, no one is saying here you are saved by works in the age to come, but rather you need to show your faith by your works which is what James is saying in James 2. It is ultimately your faith that saves you.
You are preaching a false gospel. The same gospel that Paul preached is the one that one must believe to be saved for all-time. That will not change during any future tribulation time. You have an erroneous understanding of the age to come. You apparently have never read this:

Luke 20:34 Jesus replied, “The people of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are considered worthy of taking part in the age to come and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage, 36 and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are God’s children, since they are children of the resurrection.

Jesus contrasted this age as being the temporal age when people get married and they die. The age to come is the eternal age (new heavens and new earth) when the resurrection will occur and people will no longer get married and no longer die. During your future Tribulation, lots of people will die so that is clearly not the age to come as you claim. You need to learn to interpret scripture with scripture.
 
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Guojing

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You are preaching a false gospel. The same gospel that Paul preached is the one that one must believe to be saved for all-time. That will not change during any future tribulation time. You have an erroneous understanding of the age to come. You apparently have never read this:

Luke 20:34 Jesus replied, “The people of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are considered worthy of taking part in the age to come and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage, 36 and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are God’s children, since they are children of the resurrection.

Jesus contrasted this age as being the temporal age when people get married and they die. The age to come is the eternal age (new heavens and new earth) when the resurrection will occur and people will no longer get married and no longer die. During your future Tribulation, lots of people will die so that is clearly not the age to come as you claim. You need to learn to interpret scripture with scripture.

Jesus himself said during the Tribulation, one must endure to the end to be saved. (Matthew 24:13)

Elsewhere, he also said if you, as a gentile, don't feed and give shelter to the persecuted Jews during the Tribulation, you will also be cast to the lake of fire (Matthew 25:31-46)
 
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BABerean2

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Jesus himself said during the Tribulation, one must endure to the end to be saved. (Matthew 24:13)

Elsewhere, he also said if you, as a gentile, don't feed and give shelter to the persecuted Jews during the Tribulation, you will also be cast to the lake of fire (Matthew 25:31-46)


Why would you believe everyone on this forum is a Gentile?
Do you believe what Paul said about genealogies in Titus 3:9?


.
 
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Davy

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In Revelation 6, it is not referring to bringing the wrath of the Lamb on the Daughters of Jerusalem (Luke 23:28).

But on....

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

Sorry that I showed you the Luke 23 Scripture that apparently insulted you, even though it was something Lord Jesus said to the Daughters of Jerusalem...

Luke 23:27-31
27 And there followed Him a great company of people, and of women, which also bewailed and lamented Him.

28 But Jesus turning unto them said, "Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for Me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.


29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, 'Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.'
30 Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us.

31 For if they do these things in a green tree, what shall be done in the dry?
KJV



Those are... the same ones spoken of here...

Rev 6:15-17
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him That sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of His wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
KJV


Don't try to tell me that cannot apply to Israel, because Hosea 10:8 is further proof that it can.

Another proof is what Jesus quoted to those "Daughters of Jerusalem". It's what they will be saying on that day of His return, which is the event He is pointing to with those who will wish for the mountains and rocks to fall upon themselves.

The "Blessed are the barren..." they will be saying is a quote from Isaiah 54, and is about the end of this world when the faithful will no longer be a reproach. The barren, those whose wombs did not bare, and they did not give suck, means they remained faithful waiting on Christ's return, and did not fall away to the Antichrist that comes first! That is a parable that Apostle Paul repeated in 2 Corinthians 11 with wanting to present us to Christ as "a chaste virgin", meant spiritually. If you are found 'with child' and not barren when Jesus comes, well, it means you fell away to worship another in His place. Thus THAT is another way to know that Luke 23 passage is for the END of this world, and not 70 A.D.
 
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Davy

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The gospel went out to the Gentiles in Paul's day and some of the Jews who had previously been broken off in Paul's day were provoked to jealousy and they too became saved. The very Jews who you think were blinded until death in Paul's day were among those who Paul wished to help save and that he said the Gentile believers should try to provoke to jealousy so that they would want to be saved, too. Your lack of understanding the following passage is a big reason why you don't understand the rest of Romans 11.

Romans 11:10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway. 11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. 12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? 13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: 14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

What you miss is those Jews only stumbled in that day but did not fall. You falsely postpone the salvation of those who Paul and the Gentiles were trying to save in his day.

Can you see in verse 14 that Paul was referencing the very people he mentioned in verse 10 and that he wanted to help "save some of them"? Can you see how that contradicts your understanding of what he was teaching in Romans 11?

Later in the chapter Paul again spoke about those who were blinded in his day and said this regarding them:

Romans 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

Paul was not speaking about the distant future here. He was saying that the ones who were blinded in his day "were broken off" and that was "because of unbelief". And then after indicating that the Gentiles in his day were grafted in by faith, he warned that they too could be cut off because of unbelief. And then he said that the Israelites who were broken off, if they believed, would be grafted back in. So, it was only a temporary blinding of some of the Jews that occurred back then while the gospel was preached to the Gentiles and then the Gentiles, in turn, preached to those Israelites so that they too could be saved.

There is no way to change the timing of the "fulness of the Gentiles" that Paul showed in Romans 11 is when God will remove the majority of the Jew's spiritual stupor He put upon them, so The Gospel would go to the Gentiles. The Scripture is clear, all one need do is believe it as written. And there's a whole multitude... of Old Testament scripture which declares how God is going to save the seed of Israel when The Deliverer (Jesus) returns to Zion.

Rom 11:25-32
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.


26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:


27 For this is My covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.


28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.


29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.


30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
KJV

 
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Davy

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And the sad thing about that verse, I have personally seen members on this board use that verse to show their contempt for the Jews. The only part they would quote is the following, or if they did quote the entire verse, this part they would put in bold letters----the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie

But when I asked them about the following part, they pretty much didn't even bother to provide an answer---Behold, I will make them ---I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

IMO, we see the fulfillment of this recorded in Isaiah 60 per the following.

Isaiah 60:14 The sons also of them that afflicted thee shall come bending unto thee; and all they that despised thee shall bow themselves down at the soles of thy feet; and they shall call thee, The city of the LORD, The Zion of the Holy One of Israel.

This appears to be in NHNE context, BTW.

Most scholars believe it is pointing to the blind scribes and Pharisees as that "synagogue of Satan". It is partially, but also to the foreigners that crept in among Israel's history and took the name Jew, which is the idea of those who say are they Jews, but lie and are not. Per 1 Chronicles 2:55, the scribes in Israel were of the family of Kenites, a people from the land of Canaan, and not born of any of the tribes of Israel. Canaanites also crept in among the Jews, which the last verse of Zechariah 14 reveals at Christ's return they will be booted out of the House of God. So actually, the Rev.2:9 and 3:9 verses about the "synagogue of Satan" applies both to Jews as spiritual concept, and also about the tribe of Judah which is where the title of Jew originates.
 
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Davy

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I agree it's millennial context, yet I also tend to think the millennium may be the first thousand years of the NHNE. After all, most Premils agree that the NHNE mentioned in Isaiah 65 is meaning the millennium. There couldn't possibly be 2 sets of NHNEs, where one is temporary and the other is endless.

I really don't think the wicked will ever see the NHNE timing. I treat Christ's future thousand years reign as still being part of this present earth age, yet with changes, like no more flesh body, and the return of God's River, Tree of Life, etc.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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There is no way to change the timing of the "fulness of the Gentiles" that Paul showed in Romans 11 is when God will remove the majority of the Jew's spiritual stupor He put upon them, so The Gospel would go to the Gentiles. The Scripture is clear, all one need do is believe it as written. And there's a whole multitude... of Old Testament scripture which declares how God is going to save the seed of Israel when The Deliverer (Jesus) returns to Zion.

Rom 11:25-32
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.


26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:


27 For this is My covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.


28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.


29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.


30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
KJV
Why did you not specifically address any of the points I made? Can you do that?

I was not intending to say in that post that the fullness of the Gentiles already came in back then. What I was intending to show is that the Israelites who were broken off of the good olive tree back then in Paul's day were broken off to give the Gentiles the opportunity to be grafted in. The Gentiles, in turn, were supposed to provoke the unbelieving Israelites to jealousy so that they would want to be grafted back in.

What I didn't mention in that post, but have in others relating to this topic, is that I believe this same process is what God intended to happen right up until the second coming of Christ which is when I believe the fullness of the Gentiles will finally have come in.

What you apparently don't understand is that it was only part of Israel that was blinded back then and part of Israel that has continued to be blinded "because of unbelief" but Israelites have been getting saved throughout the last 2,000 years. Why are you postponing their salvation when a good number of them have been getting saved, including the remnant that Paul mentioned were saved in his day?

Also, I believe you need to read Romans 9:6-8 to properly understand which Israel Paul is talking about of which all are saved.

How do you interpret this passage:

Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

You can't properly understand what Romans 11 is about without also reading Romans 9 and 10.
 
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Davy

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Are they jealous? You bet they are!

The orthodox Jew is zealous for The LORD GOD. Think of Apostle Peter in that for Christ. So any of us claiming that Jesus of Nazareth is GOD, Whom they just see as a revolutionary seditionist come to overthrow their government, naturally they are going to be against. That means all Christianity they are against and want to overthrow, because they see our belief on Christ Jesus as blasphemy against our Heavenly Father. The idea of jealousy and being enemies of The Gospel for our sake is how Paul meant that idea of their jealousy (see the Greek).
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Jesus himself said during the Tribulation, one must endure to the end to be saved. (Matthew 24:13)
We all must endure to the end to be saved. That has to do with being faithful unto death, which is required of all of us. You act as if this future Tribulation time period would be the first time that Christians would ever face tribulation.

2 Timothy 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

I say again that you are promoting a false gospel. The gospel that we preach now is the same one that will be preached during any future tribulation time period.

Elsewhere, he also said if you, as a gentile, don't feed and give shelter to the persecuted Jews during the Tribulation, you will also be cast to the lake of fire (Matthew 25:31-46)
No, He did not say that at all. You are twisting that passage to fit your view. That passage is a portrayal of the day of judgment when all people will give an account of themselves (Romans 14:10-12, 2 Cor 5:10, Acts 17:30-31, Rev 20:11-15).
 
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Guojing

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No, He did not say that at all. You are twisting that passage to fit your view. That passage is a portrayal of the day of judgment when all people will give an account of themselves (Romans 14:10-12, 2 Cor 5:10, Acts 17:30-31, Rev 20:11-15).

It’s from the literal reading of sheep and the goats passage.

Us in the body of Christ will not be part of that judgment, our salvation is already secured.
 
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Davy

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Davy, I was in the military, just like you, artillery, combat arms. You are going to get an Article 15, if you keep this up.

So stop with the saying that I am pre-trib view, when I say to you over and over I am a different view, anytime rapture view.

The problem probably is that you don't know what either view is.


The two charts below represent the anytime rapture view timing window, vs the pre-trib timing window.

I well know what the Pre-trib Rapture theory is.

They also use the idea that Jesus can come 'at anytime', except they use the phrase "any moment" instead for that idea. So far, I haven't seen that much difference in your claim, for BOTH per your chart claim the rapture happens prior to the mid-point of the Dan.9:27 "one week" when the "abomination of desolation" is setup.

You also have the time of Paul's "Peace and safety" from 1 Thess.5 in the wrong place. That time of fake peace begins when the false messiah arrives and sets up the AOD. It's that false peace that Daniel 8 says he will use to destroy many (spiritually) with. And then the "sudden destruction" comes upon them, which is the day of Christ's return on the "day of the Lord".
 
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