GOD'S DIETARY LAWS AND BAT SOUP STEW - COVID 19

LoveGodsWord said:

If JESUS broke the Sabbath commandment he would be guilty of sin. If JESUS sinned we are all lost because he would not be sinless and a sinner like you and me. Gods Word says that JESUS was sinless *1 Peter 2:22; Hebrews 4:15; 1 John 3:5. Think it through dear friend. JESUS was the creator of the Sabbath that he made for all mankind *Mark 2:27-28. John 5 does not say JESUS broke the Sabbath. It says the JEWS accused him of breaking the Sabbath because of their false interpretation of the Sabbath and man-made laws that were put in place around the Sabbath. JESUS taught us that it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath day in Matthew 12:1-12 which is what he did in healing the sick.

Hope this helps.

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Doesn't say that. It says the Jews were offended because he broke the Sabbath. Doesn't say they were wrong. I have no problem with what he did. But read what it says.

section9+1 said:

Doesn't say that. It says the Jews were offended because he broke the Sabbath. Doesn't say they were wrong. I have no problem with what he did. But read what it says.

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The Rabbis were offended---Jesus broke the Rabbi's Sabbath---He never broke the Sabbath of God, the Sabbath as it is written in the 4th commandment! We are not to go by man's interpretation, but what God said. It was the Jews that had added to the word of God. God never commanded you copuld only walk so many steps on the sabbath, He did not make a bunch of rules about it--

Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Exo 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

section9+1 said:

Doesn't say that. It says the Jews were offended because he broke the Sabbath. Doesn't say they were wrong. I have no problem with what he did. But read what it says.

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The Jews often "accused" Christ - the Bible never says they were correct when accusing Christ of sin, for in the NT "Sin is transgression of the Law" - 1 John 3:4..

So Jesus challenges them as follows

John 8:46 Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don't you believe me?

They had a narrative that was about "Jesus the sinner" - But the Bible says he was "without sin" 2 Cor 5, Heb 4


2 Cor 5
21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

Heb 4
15 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin.

Christ's sacrifice for sin - was a spotless sinless sacrifice

BobRyan said:

The Jews often "accused" Christ - the Bible never says they were correct when accusing Christ of sin, for in the NT "Sin is transgression of the Law" - 1 John 3:4..

So Jesus challenges them as follows

John 8:46 Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don't you believe me?

They had a narrative that was about "Jesus the sinner" - But the Bible says he was "without sin" 2 Cor 5, Heb 4


2 Cor 5
21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

Heb 4
15 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin.

Christ's sacrifice for sin - was a spotless sinless sacrifice

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I am not saying Jesus sinned. I am saying that according to John 5 he broke the Sabbath. If that conflicts with your doctrine then you have a problem.

mmksparbud said:

The Rabbis were offended---Jesus broke the Rabbi's Sabbath---He never broke the Sabbath of God, the Sabbath as it is written in the 4th commandment! We are not to go by man's interpretation, but what God said. It was the Jews that had added to the word of God. God never commanded you copuld only walk so many steps on the sabbath, He did not make a bunch of rules about it--

Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Exo 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

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I don't see where it says he broke the Rabbi's Sabbath. I'm not accusing him of sinning. He broke the Sabbath and did not deny it. If that is a problem for you which will win out? Your doctrine or John 5?

LoveGodsWord said:

If JESUS broke the Sabbath then he sinned according to the scriptures *1 John 3:4; James 2:10-11; Romans 7:7. The bible says JESUS was sinless so therefore did not break God's law *1 Peter 2:22; Hebrews 4:15; 1 John 3:5. If JESUS sinned we would all be lost as he could never be our perfect sacrifice. JESUS was the creator of the Sabbath and Lord of it that he made for all mankind at creation *Mark 2:27-28; Genesis 2:1-3. He came to teach us not to follow the man-made rules of the Scribes and the Pharisees and that it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath *Matthew 12:1-12. Holding on to a belief that JESUS broke the Sabbath is to hold on to the teachings of the Scribes and Pharisees and makes JESUS a sinner which is not biblical.

Hope this is helpful.

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Doctrine wins as usual.

section9+1 said:

I am not saying Jesus sinned. I am saying that according to John 5 he broke the Sabbath.

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unsaved Jews argued that the act of healing a man on the Sabbath could be imagined as breaking God's Law -- Jesus argues that this is flawed reasoning (Luke 13:10-17).

Who shall we agree with? Some say the Jews.... some say Jesus
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John does not say He broke the Sabbath - according to John the Jews accused Christ of breaking the Law by healing someone on Sabbath John 5:16.. (context matters) .. Jesus had repeatedly pointed out that healing on the Sabbath was not breaking the Law even by their own standards.

These key details get lost in a half-vs-snip point. Context matters when it comes to exegesis.

John says - "sin IS transgression of the Law" 1 John 3:4. That is not "the jews" that is John via the Holy Spirit.

and as you have said --

section9+1 said:

I am not saying Jesus sinned

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John says that even after their false accusation in John 5:18 about Sabbath breaking -- Jesus challenged them to show that He had broken the Law -
John 8:46 Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don't you believe me?


These key details can get lost in a half-vs-snip view of the subject.

Context matters when it comes to exegesis.


Albert Barnes

John 5:18 “Had broken the Sabbath” - They supposed he had broken it.


Adam Clarke

John 5:18 “… They had now found out two pretenses to take away his life: one was that he had broken the Sabbath - ελυε, dissolved, as they pretended, the obligation of keeping it holy. The other was that he was guilty of blasphemy, in making himself equal to God: for both which crimes, a man, according to the law, must suffer death. See Numbers 15:32; Leviticus 24:11, Leviticus 24:14, Leviticus 24:16.



John Gill:

5:16 “and sought to slay him; either in a violent way, by setting the zealots, a sort of ruffians under the pretence of religion, upon him; or rather in a judicial way, summoning him before the sanhedrim, in order to condemn him to death for the breach of the Sabbath, which by the law of Moses was punishable with death: “

because he had done these things on the Sabbath day; because he had cured the man of his disease, under which he had laboured eight and thirty years, and had ordered him to take up his bed, and walk home with it on his back on the sabbath day. This drew upon him their resentment to such a degree, that they not only persecuted him with their tongues, but sought to take away his life. Nothing would satisfy them but his blood.

5:18 Verse 18

Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him,.... They were the more desirous to take away his life, and were more bent and resolute upon it, and studied all ways and means how to bring it about;

because he had not only broken the Sabbath; as they imagined; for he had not really broken it: and if they had known what that means, that God will have mercy, and not sacrifice, they would have been convinced that he had not broke it by this act of mercy to a poor distressed object:


===other examples

The Bible states parable as matter of fact – leaving the reader to understand the details.

=========================
Judges 9:8 (KJV) -- 8 The trees went forth on a time to anoint a king over them; and they said unto the olive tree, Reign thou over us.

The bible does not call it a parable - but we know that trees don't do that sort of thing

==============================
1 Sam 28:

8 And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment, and he went, and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night: and he said, I pray thee, divine unto me by the familiar spirit, and bring me him up, whom I shall name unto thee.

15 And Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?” Saul replied, “I am very distressed, for the Philistines are waging war against me, and God has abandoned me and no longer answers me, either through prophets or in dreams; therefore I have called you, so that you may let me know what I should do.”

God does not give demons possession of the souls/spirits of departed saints , to "bring them up" at will.

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John 5

2 Now there is in Jerusalem by the Sheep Gate a pool, which is called in Hebrew, Bethesda, having five porches. 3 In these lay a great multitude of sick people, blind, lame, paralyzed, waiting for the moving of the water. 4 For an angel went down at a certain time into the pool and stirred up the water; then whoever stepped in first, after the stirring of the water, was made well of whatever disease he had.


Which is not at all the way God sends healing in OT or NT – it was a belief – being reported in the text.. .

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Jesus condemned the flawed logic that claims that healing on the Sabbath is Sabbath breaking --

Luke 13:10-17

10 Now Jesus was teaching in one of the synagogues on the Sabbath. 11 And there was a woman who for eighteen years had had a sickness caused by a spirit; and she was bent over double, and could not straighten up at all. 12 When Jesus saw her, He called her over and said to her, “Woman, you are freed from your sickness.” 13 And He laid His hands on her; and immediately she stood up straight again, and began glorifying God. 14 But the synagogue leader, indignant because Jesus had healed on the Sabbath, began saying to the crowd in response, “There are six days during which work should be done; so come during them and get healed, and not on the Sabbath day.” 15 But the Lord answered him and said, “You hypocrites, does each of you on the Sabbath not untie his ox or donkey from the stall and lead it away to water it? 16 And this woman, a daughter of Abraham as she is, whom Satan has bound for eighteen long years, should she not have been released from this restraint on the Sabbath day?” 17 And as He said this, all His opponents were being humiliated; and the entire crowd was rejoicing over all the glorious things being done by Him.

section9+1 said:

I don't see where it says he broke the Rabbi's Sabbath. I'm not accusing him of sinning. He broke the Sabbath and did not deny it. If that is a problem for you which will win out? Your doctrine or John 5?

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It was the Rabbi's that added all the other stuff about Sabbath keeping, couldn't take anymore than a certain amount of steps on the Sabbath, and many other rules that God never mentioned. Jesus and the disciples were eating some grains, not harvesting the field! Tjere was no breaking of the Sabbath--no sin.

What wins is God's commandment:

Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Exo 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

It's a tough pill to swallow isn't it.

This is thoroughly grotesque.
No all things are NOT now clean to eat EVER.

Redwingfan9 said:

Q1: No. Dietary laws were ceremonial in nature and done away with in Christ as are all ceremonial laws. These are not criminal codes but merely symbolic in nature.

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Q1. Yes, some had ceremonies attached but the ones for the Common Folk and the Strangers who lived among them (Gentiles) had specific rules to follow. These came from the Creator who knew what was good for his people to eat and what wasn't.
Some even involve what you can an cannot do regarding a clean animal such as you can't take a bird and its eggs from the nest.

Redwingfan9 said:

Q2: Chinese Coronavirus may be a judgment but not because abolished dietary laws aren't being followed. Beyond that, there is no evidence that bat soup caused the transmission of the virus. That was debunked six months ago.

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Do we really believe anything that comes out of China? Remember we were also told that it didn't transmit from person to person.

Redwingfan9 said:

Q3: there is no such thing as clean and unclean anymore as the cleanliness laws were ceremonial and done away with in Christ. If you want to enforce these laws then you must argue for the enforcement of all ceremonial cleanliness laws, including those women who are menstruating or have recently given birth. I find that those seeking to enforce dietary laws often fall silent when women are declared unclean for 14 days around their period.

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I'll have to disagree with that. For those who believe in the book of Revelation of Jesus Christ as told to his servant John, many decades after he was Crucified, Dead and then Raised from the Dead and Ascended into heaven. In other words there was plenty of time with all he told him and how much time had passed to 'remind' him that
he had 'declared all things clean'.

But then we read this, and have to scratch our heads and say, Hmm

Rev 18
And way before that part we read about Jezabel:

Things sacrificed to idols are also considered as 'unclean'.

LoveGodsWord said:

Hi Red, nice to meet you and welcome. Do you have scripture to support your views? Thanks for sharing what you think with us but no, none of the dietary laws were ceremonial, they are God's health laws. The scriptures teach that there is no such thing as clean and unclean people between Jewish and Gentile believers but there is no scripture that says that there is no longer any difference between clean and unclean foods.

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Hi LoveGodsWord,

There actually were some of the dietary laws that were ceremonial, those attached mostly to the sacrifices which of course were part of the worship done by the Levites, Priests and High Priest.

As far as health I personally think it involves more than that but it was enough to suffice his instruction for his people.

As far as the Scriptures not saying anything about people being clean and unclean I'll also have to disagree with that.

Throughout the Torah and the Prophets there are many times God's people told to stay away from the Gentiles, because they were unclean, they were not sanctified by G-d unless they joined themselves unto the Lord and his people..

Even in Jesus' time this was a commonly held belief and why it took God to give Peter a very strange dream/vision where he was lead to the house of a Gentile, Cornelius.

However we see that Cornelius wasn't just a Gentile, but he was considered a 'God Fearer'.

So he and his household had the Approval of God to be brought into the fold, that is why he sent Peter there.

This is really the beginning of the call to the Gentiles, not Acts 2, at Pentecost as those were the Jews the promises were initially made to, they were from the Diaspora, those who had not returned from exile during King Nebuchadnezzars time.

We don't hear about a Gentile coming into the fold until Acts 10


He wouldn't really be considered a heathen like other Gentiles.

section9+1 said:

It does not say that. It says the Jews were offended because he broke the Sabbath. It doesn't say they were wrong.

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section9+1 said:

I am not saying Jesus sinned. I am saying that according to John 5 he broke the Sabbath. If that conflicts with your doctrine then you have a problem.

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section9+1 said:

I don't see where it says he broke the Rabbi's Sabbath. I'm not accusing him of sinning. He broke the Sabbath and did not deny it. If that is a problem for you which will win out? Your doctrine or John 5?

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It's not a doctrine it's just facts from the whole of the Bible and some outside sources.

See the red part above? that is the real problem they had with him, not so much the healing but because he told him specifically to pick up his bed. That was a Pharisaical law, which has been handed down to today even. It is like the part in Matthew where they are talking about eating with unwashed hands. There was no law of Gods about that, it was their laws.

You see there are many laws they followed regarding the Sabbath, Jesus knew what was from his Father and what was their interpretation.

This is the current law on carrying things today, I'm sure it's been padded well since back then but it should give you an idea.

Carrying

On the Sabbath one may not carry or transfer objects between a private, enclosed domain, (such as the house); and a public domain, (such as the street). Neither may one carry an object in a house for more than six feet. Examples of this prohibition include: carrying in one's pocket; carrying anything in the hand; wheeling a baby carriage or shopping cart, going outside with gum or food in the mouth.