Who is "National Israel"?

mkgal1 said:

Yes, I'm an partial-preterist amillennialist....so I am not expecting Jesus to return for an unidentifiable group like that. The biblical Israelite assembly was a type (shadow/symbol) of nation in covenant with God. The True Church is the antitype (reality the that symbol pointed to or represented).

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Alright, in that case, I can understand why you hold the doctrine you have.

mkgal1 said:

But God (and Paul, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit) doesn't state ALL were Israelites (back in the first century - when the old covenant was coming to an end).

Romans 9:6
It is not as though God’s word has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.​

The priesthood changed with the advent of Jesus. He is the High Priest and the Holy nation of His kingdom no longer profane His holy name. This is the only nation God counts as "His":

1 Peter 2:7-9
To you who believe, then, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe,​

“The stone the builders rejected

has become the cornerstone,”b8and,

“A stone of stumbling

and a rock of offense.”(c)​

They stumble because they disobey the word—and to this they were appointed.9But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, to proclaim the virtues of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light.​

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Every time the KJV use the singular term nation, it only refers to national Israel. Much as some of us in the Body of Christ want to be part of national Israel, we are kept separate from them.

I do understand the appeal, because national Israel was promised many physical blessings, such as healing from disease and financial prosperity. So if you are currently attending Bethel or other Word of Faith churches, I can see the attraction of wanting to become part of Israel.

So Peter in his letters is not addressing us, he is still addressing the nation Israel.

Guojing said:

Every time the KJV use the singular term nation, it only refers to national Israel. Much as some of us in the Body of Christ want to be part of national Israel, we are kept separate from them.

I do understand the appeal, because national Israel was promised many physical blessings, such as healing from disease and financial prosperity. So if you are currently attending Bethel or other Word of Faith churches, I can see the attraction of wanting to become part of Israel.

So Peter in his letters is not addressing us, he is still addressing the nation Israel.

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How exactly do you interpret Romans 9:6-8? Please be as specific as possible.

Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Spiritual Jew said:

How exactly do you interpret Romans 9:6-8? Please be as specific as possible.

Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

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There is a remnant from the nation Israel who believed in Jesus, they are the little flock (1 Peter 5:2).

That is what that verse meant.

Guojing said:

There is a remnant from the nation Israel who believed in Jesus, they are the little flock (1 Peter 5:2).

That is what that verse meant.

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That flock started with about 3,000 people on the Day of Pentecost.
There were almost no Gentiles in the Church for the first few years its existence.

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BABerean2 said:

That flock started with about 3,000 people on the Day of Pentecost.
There were almost no Gentiles in the Church for the first few years its existence.

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Yes, and you agree that the nation of Israel had way more than 3000 right?

Guojing said:

Every time the KJV use the singular term nation, it only refers to national Israel. Much as some of us in the Body of Christ want to be part of national Israel, we are kept separate from them.

I do understand the appeal, because national Israel was promised many physical blessings, such as healing from disease and financial prosperity. So if you are currently attending Bethel or other Word of Faith churches, I can see the attraction of wanting to become part of Israel.

So Peter in his letters is not addressing us, he is still addressing the nation Israel.

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I don't know what you're referring to. I'm not inferring we are part of the ancient biblical Israelites. I see no appeal to attempt to be included in their Mosaic Covenant. Our Covenant is a superior one (that the faithful remnant was included in). See Romans 11.

mkgal1 said:

I don't know what you're referring to. I'm not inferring we are part of the ancient biblical Israelites. I see no appeal to attempt to be included in their Mosaic Covenant. Our Covenant is a superior one (that the faithful remnant was included in).

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You have heard of Bethel as well as Word of Faith churches in general right?

You mean you cannot understand why physical blessings of healing and financial prosperity can be very attractive to many Christians? Bill Johnson certainly believe in the former.

Guojing said:

You have heard of Bethel as well as Word of Faith churches in general right?

You mean you cannot understand why physical blessings of healing and financial prosperity can be very attractive to many Christians? Bill Johnson certainly believe in the former.

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Yes, I'm aware of them. I believe they're misguided (along with their followers).

mkgal1 said:

Yes, I'm aware of them. I believe they're misguided (along with their followers).

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Their doctrine comes from not rightly dividing the word of truth.

They see themselves as part of National Israel. Israel was promised so many physical blessings if they obeyed the covenant of the Law (Deuteronomy 28)

They make use of verses like 2 Corinthians 1:20 to claim them, thinking that because Jesus has fulfilled the Law completely on their behalf, they can then claim those promises meant for national Israel to apply to them as well.

I know because I am currently attending a WOF church. =)

Guojing said:

Their doctrine comes from not rightly dividing the word of truth.

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Wrongly dividing the word of God is what Dispensationalists do in an attempt to make their Two Peoples of God doctrine work.

They often claim the Book of Matthew was written to the Jews, by ignoring the Great Commission to the Church at the end of Matthew's Gospel.


Some of them cannot find the word "now" in Hebrews 8:6-13.


Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.

The New Covenant: Bob George

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BABerean2 said:

They often claim the Book of Matthew was written to the Jews, by ignoring the Great Commission to the Church at the end of Matthew's Gospel

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Do you have the power to forgive or retain sins? (John 20:23)

Guojing said:

Do you have the power to forgive or retain sins? (John 20:23)

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Dispensationalists are experts at taking one verse out of its context, and then ignoring the rest to make their doctrine work.

The power to forgive sin only comes from Jesus Christ's sacrifice at Calvary.
This is Christianity 101.

When the lame man was healed when Peter walked by, was it Peter, or was it the name of Christ which healed the man?

Act 3:1 Now Peter and John went up together into the temple at the hour of prayer, being the ninth hour.
Act 3:2 And a certain man lame from his mother's womb was carried, whom they laid daily at the gate of the temple which is called Beautiful, to ask alms of them that entered into the temple;
Act 3:3 Who seeing Peter and John about to go into the temple asked an alms.
Act 3:4 And Peter, fastening his eyes upon him with John, said, Look on us.
Act 3:5 And he gave heed unto them, expecting to receive something of them.
Act 3:6 Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk.
Act 3:7 And he took him by the right hand, and lifted him up: and immediately his feet and ankle bones received strength.
Act 3:8 And he leaping up stood, and walked, and entered with them into the temple, walking, and leaping, and praising God.
Act 3:9 And all the people saw him walking and praising God:
Act 3:10 And they knew that it was he which sat for alms at the Beautiful gate of the temple: and they were filled with wonder and amazement at that which had happened unto him.

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BABerean2 said:

Dispensationalists are experts at taking one verse out of its context, and then ignoring the rest to make their doctrine work.

The power to forgive sin only comes from Jesus Christ's sacrifice at Calvary.
This is Christianity 101.
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So you do agree that at least "some parts" of the Great Commission is only for the 12, and not for us correct?

Guojing said:

So you do agree that at least "some parts" of the Great Commission is only for the 12, and not for us correct?

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Are you claiming nobody today has been physically healed by the name of Jesus?


Ask the doctors who had to stop a scheduled surgery because a later body scan revealed a tumor was gone.

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BABerean2 said:

Are you claiming nobody today has been physically healed by the name of Jesus?


Ask the doctors who had to stop a scheduled surgery because a later body scan revealed a tumor was gone.

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Didn't you just confirm that John 20:23 is not for you?

Guojing said:

Didn't you just confirm that John 20:23 is not for you?

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My church body prayed last night that people we know will be physically healed in the name of Jesus.

Therefore, the answer to your question is no.

Why would you leave out the first part of what Christ said?


Joh 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
Joh 20:23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.


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Guojing said:

Didn't you just confirm that John 20:23 is not for you?

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Your whole premise of having Jews and Christians as separate peoples of God, is unscriptural and is not how it is now, or later.
John 17:20-23 and other verses, say there is only one people of God.

I anyone rejects Jesus, they belong to the godless peoples.
Many Bible prophecies tell us in graphic detail, how all the ungodly people in the Middle East region will be wiped out in the forthcoming Day of the Lord's fiery wrath. Amos 1 & 2:1-5, Ezekiel 30:1-5, Isaiah 6:11-13

So your belief of a Jewish redemption, is false and is never prophesied to happen.

BABerean2 said:

My church body prayed last night that people we know will be physically healed in the name of Jesus.

Therefore, the answer to your question is no.

Why would you leave out the first part of what Christ said?


Joh 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
Joh 20:23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.


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So if John 20:23 is part of the same great commission given to the 11, you are also saying it is not directed at you.

That was what I am trying to make clear. Whether Jesus heals today or not is separate point.

keras said:

Your whole premise of having Jews and Christians as separate peoples of God, is unscriptural and is not how it is now, or later.
John 17:20-23 and other verses, say there is only one people of God.

I anyone rejects Jesus, they belong to the godless peoples.
Many Bible prophecies tell us in graphic detail, how all the ungodly people in the Middle East region will be wiped out in the forthcoming Day of the Lord's fiery wrath. Amos 1 & 2:1-5, Ezekiel 30:1-5, Isaiah 6:11-13

So your belief of a Jewish redemption, is false and is never prophesied to happen.

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Are you also discussing whether the great commission applies to us too?