Why Antiochus was not the little horn

Douggg · Dec 13, 2020

time of the end. time of the end. time of the end. time of the end. :preach:

The transgression of desolation to be done by the little horn person is time of the end, stated so by Gabriel in Daniel 8.

Differently, Anitiochus comitted the abomnation of desolation in Daniel 11:31.

AFTER the time of Anitochus and the Maccabbees, the events of Daniel 11 transitions in Daniel 11:35 to the time of the end, the time of the little horn person.

35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.

The appointed time is the 7 year 70th week of Daniel 9. Yet to be fulfilled.

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Anitochus was not time of the end, and not the little horn person.

DavidPT · Dec 13, 2020

Douggg said:
time of the end. time of the end. time of the end. time of the end.

The transgression of desolation to be done by the little horn person is time of the end, stated so by Gabriel in Daniel 8.

Differently, Anitiochus comitted the abomnation of desolation in Daniel 11:31.

AFTER the time of Anitochus and the Maccabbees, the events of Daniel 11 transitions in Daniel 11:35 to the time of the end, the time of the little horn person.

35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.

The appointed time is the 7 year 70th week of Daniel 9. Yet to be fulfilled.

_________________________________________________

Anitochus was not time of the end, and not the little horn person.

Can you explain how, if one starts with the last verse in Daniel 11, such as I have done in the past, and then works backwards in the text, the same one meant in the last verse leads to the same one meant in verse 21, why your interpretation doesn't agree with that ? Your interpretation is not agreeing with this if you have Anitochus fulfilling from verse 21 to 35, then have a new person not even mentioned anywhere prior to verse 36, assuming you are correct, now being the main player in Daniel 11 instead, out of nowhere all of a sudden like. There couldn't possibly be a gap of thousands of years between that of verse 31 and 36.

Douggg · Dec 13, 2020

DavidPT said:
Can you explain how, if one starts with the last verse in Daniel 11, such as I have done in the past, and then works backwards in the text, the same one meant in the last verse leads to the same one meant in verse 21, why your interpretation doesn't agree with that ?

Verse 35 is the disrupter of a reverse order approach. The verses in Daniel 11 before Verse 35 are not time of the end.

Everything after Verse 35 is time of the end.

The king in Verse 36 is time of the end. And the attacks on him in Verse 40 are time of the end. And everything in the continuation in Daniel 12 is time of the end.

40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.

DavidPT said:
Your interpretation is not agreeing with this if you have Anitochus fulfilling from verse 21 to 35, then have a new person not even mentioned anywhere prior to verse 36, assuming you are correct, now being the main player in Daniel 11 instead, out of nowhere all of a sudden like. There couldn't possibly be a gap of thousands of years between that of verse 31 and 36.

The time appointed in Daniel 11:35 is the 7 year 70th week, during which the time of the end little horn person commits the transgression of desolation, claiming to have achieved God-hood. Still unfulfilled.

Daniel 11:36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.

2Thessalonians 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

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"out of nowhere" though may be apapro because the person is not visibly well known (or shall we say not known at all) at this time, as the ten leader form of gov't is not in the EU yet either.

Covid 19 came out of nowhere as well, as we are living in fast changing event times.

Timtofly · Dec 14, 2020

Douggg said:
time of the end. time of the end. time of the end. time of the end.

The transgression of desolation to be done by the little horn person is time of the end, stated so by Gabriel in Daniel 8.

Differently, Anitiochus comitted the abomnation of desolation in Daniel 11:31.

AFTER the time of Anitochus and the Maccabbees, the events of Daniel 11 transitions in Daniel 11:35 to the time of the end, the time of the little horn person.

35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.

The appointed time is the 7 year 70th week of Daniel 9. Yet to be fulfilled.

_________________________________________________

Anitochus was not time of the end, and not the little horn person.

That is because Satan cannot raise the dead. More like a reincarnation of Antiochus Epiphanies. At least Satan will convince Eastern Religions that is what happened. It is definitely not what most here are expecting. John does not say a king, nor a leader. John says a FP.

Douggg · Dec 14, 2020

Timtofly said:
That is because Satan cannot raise the dead. More like a reincarnation of Antiochus Epiphanies. At least Satan will convince Eastern Religions that is what happened. It is definitely not what most here are expecting. John does not say a king, nor a leader. John says a FP.

Tim, you need to work on your communications skills. You are making unclear fragmented statements with no apparent connection between them.

keras · Dec 14, 2020

Douggg said:
Differently, Anitiochus comitted the abomnation of desolation in Daniel 11:31.

No; that will be the coming Anti-Christ, the leader of the One World Govt.

Antiochus 4 E is referred to in Daniel 8:9-13 and is proved to have been fulfilled circa 164-167 BC.

Douggg · Dec 14, 2020

keras said:
Antiochus 4 E is referred to in Daniel 8:9-13 and is proved to have been fulfilled circa 164-167 BC.

The little horn person who will commit the transgression of desolation, does so in the time of the end. The little horn is not Antiochus.

keras said:
No; that will be the coming Anti-Christ, the leader of the One World Govt.

Daniel 11:31 is before the time of the end. And is Antiochus.

keras · Dec 14, 2020

Douggg said:
The little horn person who will commit the transgression of desolation, does so in the time of the end. The little horn is not Antiochus.

Daniel 11:31 is before the time of the end. And is Antiochus.

A4E is the precursor, the type for the coming Anti-Christ.

We know this 'type' of desecration will happen again, as Paul tell us in 2 Thess 2:4

Douggg · Dec 14, 2020

keras said:
A4E is the precursor, the type for the coming Anti-Christ.

We know this 'type' of desecration will happen again, as Paul tell us in 2 Thess 2:4

I would refine that to say the abomination of desolation by Antiochus prefigured what the abomination of desolation will be in the end times.

The abomination desolation although closely tied to the transgression of desolation is not the same.

The transgression of desolation - is a transgression, an act by a person to transgress, violate. That act will be the 2Thesslalonian2:4 event.

later, after the person is killed and brought back to life, a statue image of him will be made and placed on the temple mount grounds - where everyone can see it and the Jews know to flee to the mountains. That statue image will be the abomination of desolation.

Antiochus prefigured the end times aod by having a statue image of Zeus placed in the temple.

Berean Tim · Dec 15, 2020

Douggg said:
I would refine that to say the abomination of desolation by Antiochus prefigured what the abomination of desolation will be in the end times.

The abomination desolation although closely tied to the transgression of desolation is not the same.

The transgression of desolation - is a transgression, an act by a person to transgress, violate. That act will be the 2Thesslalonian2:4 event.

later, after the person is killed and brought back to life, a statue image of him will be made and placed on the temple mount grounds - where everyone can see it and the Jews know to flee to the mountains. That statue image will be the abomination of desolation.

Antiochus prefigured the end times aod by having a statue image of Zeus placed in the temple.

Question for you and the board. Why no Little Horn in Revelation ? Daniel seems clear the LH is the AC. Revelation seems to one of the Heads. The Head w/10 horns is the AC.

Douggg · Dec 15, 2020

Berean Tim said:
Question for you and the board. Why no Little Horn in Revelation ? Daniel seems clear the LH is the AC. Revelation seems to one of the Heads. The Head w/10 horns is the AC.

Tim, in Revelation there is no little horn term, there is no Antichrist term, there is no revealed man of sin term.

The way which it appears that God has chosen to inform about this person is incremental.

In Daniel 7, the little horn emerges among ten kings of the fourth kingdom, removes three of the ten for some reason, not given.

Then persecutes the saints for a time/times/half time*, until judgements sits - another way of saying God is going to destroy the person. And the kingdom (that of the one like the Son of man in earlier verses) is given to the saints.

A lot of information.

*we group like time expressions together to place the events in the right place on the end times timeline chart. Daniel 7:25, Daniel 12:7, Revelation 12:14 - all use the time/times/half time expression.
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The information keeps mounting about the person as the chapters in the bible advance, all the way to Revelation. In my chart below, I have that progression of the person as he goes through a series of functional roles - eventually ending up as the beast in Revelation 13.

Ezekiel 28:1-10 and Isaiah 14:15-20 (in blue) I squeezed in there because those passages inform why the person is killed and why God brings him back to life (because of God's disdain for him) to face being cast into the lake of fire.

Freedm · Dec 15, 2020

Douggg said:
Differently, Anitiochus comitted the abomnation of desolation in Daniel 11:31.

AFTER the time of Anitochus and the Maccabbees, the events of Daniel 11 transitions in Daniel 11:35 to the time of the end, the time of the little horn person.

I do believe Daniel 11's abomination refers to Antiochus, and the verses 32 to 35 could be referring to the Maccabees, but for me the most difficult part of Daniel is in fact chapter 12, as you point out.

In it the Angel tells Daniel that he will rest (be dead) until the time of the end, when "many will awake, some to righteousness, others to contempt". I have always felt that this refers to the last day resurrection, but now, because all of Daniel's prophesies refer to the time prior to AD 70 and the end of the first covenant it seems unlikely that he would suddenly skip two thousand years into the future.

In other words, I now believe it's likely that there was a resurrection at the time of the end of the old covenant in 70 AD, just as there will be another resurrection at the end of our age. These people would've been resurrected as spirits to live in heaven, not on earth.

Douggg · Dec 15, 2020

Freedm said:
In other words, I now believe it's likely that there was a resurrection at the time of the end of the old covenant in 70 AD, just as there will be another resurrection at the end of our age. These people would've been resurrected as spirits to live in heaven, not on earth.

When Jesus died and went into hell, the place of the dead, both righteous and unrighteous, he preached to them and set the captives free, which imo is that their souls went to heaven at that point.

Which would have included Daniel's soul. His body though not yet redeemed, but to take part in the rapture/resurrection event still ahead of us.

Daniel will take part, as will John, Paul, Peter, Ezekiel, all of the
amazing persons of the bible, each to receive his resurrected/eternal glorified body. It is going to be an amazing time and event.

Them who are resurrected to contempt will be at the great white throne judgment at the end of the thousand years.

Freedm · Dec 15, 2020

Berean Tim said:
Question for you and the board. Why no Little Horn in Revelation ? Daniel seems clear the LH is the AC. Revelation seems to one of the Heads. The Head w/10 horns is the AC.

Daniels prophecies primarily deal with the various kingdoms leading up to the end of the age (70 AD), in other words, worldly events.

Revelation, with the exception of a few lines in chapter 20, is not a prophecy but a vision that details the Revelation of Jesus Christ (in wrath) at 70 AD, which the early Christians were eagerly awaiting, and the transition from the old covenant to the new. In other words, a very spiritual event, and no relation to the little horn whatsoever.

Freedm · Dec 15, 2020

keras said:
No; that will be the coming Anti-Christ, the leader of the One World Govt.

Antiochus 4 E is referred to in Daniel 8:9-13 and is proved to have been fulfilled circa 164-167 BC.

I agree that Daniel 8 refers to Antiochus, but the abomination in Daniel 9 refers to the time of the Roman siege, most likely when the Roman Procurator Gessius Florus brought his troops into the temple in May of 66 AD to take gold from the temple. He would've brought the Roman Eagle insignia.

This is the abomination Jesus warned of in Matthew 24 and the Christians of that time would've taken the cue from this to leave the city of Jerusalem and escape to the mountains of Pella.

So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

It's interesting to note that Josephus records that not a single Christian died during the siege of Jerusalem in 70 AD, just as the author of 1 Thessalonians 5:9 foretold when he said "God did not appoint us to suffer wrath" and as Jesus confirmed in the Revelation when he said "I will keep you from the hour of trial" in Revelation 3:10. Those Christians were not in darkness that the hour should overtake them, but indeed they were watchful and escaped the wrath that fell upon Jerusalem.

1.8 million people died in Jerusalem during that time, but not a single Christian among them.

I disagree with your assertion that we have yet a future one world government "anti-christ" figure to look forward to.

keras · Dec 15, 2020

Freedm said:
I disagree with your assertion that we have yet a future one world government "anti-christ" figure to look forward to.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4

1; Now, about the Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, when He is to gather us to Himself.
This is the Return of Jesus for His Millennial reign. As described in Zechariah 14:3, Matthew 24:30-31 and Revelation 19:11.

Jesus will send out His angels to gather His people to Him, on earth: in Jerusalem, where He will be by then. 2 Thessalonians 4:15-17

2/3; I beg you, my friends, do not act hastily or be alarmed by anything that alleges that Day has arrived. Let no one deceive you in any way.
Don’t be fooled by any false teaching, Jesus is ‘with us Spiritually’, Matthew 28:20b, in this age, but His physical Return is yet to come.

3/4; That Day cannot come before the final rebellion against God, when wickedness will be revealed in human form, the man doomed to destruction. He will desecrate the Temple and claim to be God.
This rebellion is explained to us in Daniel 7:25, Daniel 11:36-39, Revelation 13:3-8

He is the Anti-Christ referred to in 1 John 2:18 and after 42 months, Revelation 11:3, when He Returns, Jesus will chain him up, Revelation 20:2, eventually to destroy him. Revelation 20:10

Freedm · Dec 16, 2020

keras said:
2 Thessalonians 2:1-4

1; Now, about the Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, when He is to gather us to Himself.
This is the Return of Jesus for His Millennial reign. As described in Zechariah 14:3, Matthew 24:30-31 and Revelation 19:11.

Jesus will send out His angels to gather His people to Him, on earth: in Jerusalem, where He will be by then. 2 Thessalonians 4:15-17

2/3; I beg you, my friends, do not act hastily or be alarmed by anything that alleges that Day has arrived. Let no one deceive you in any way.
Don’t be fooled by any false teaching, Jesus is ‘with us Spiritually’, Matthew 28:20b, in this age, but His physical Return is yet to come.

3/4; That Day cannot come before the final rebellion against God, when wickedness will be revealed in human form, the man doomed to destruction. He will desecrate the Temple and claim to be God.
This rebellion is explained to us in Daniel 7:25, Daniel 11:36-39, Revelation 13:3-8

He is the Anti-Christ referred to in 1 John 2:18 and after 42 months, Revelation 11:3, when He Returns, Jesus will chain him up, Revelation 20:2, eventually to destroy him. Revelation 20:10

There is a future physical return of Jesus, but there will be no desecration of any temple possible without it being holy, and how can that be possible in light of the new covenant?

Considering this very obvious impossibility with your eschatology I encourage you to consider a different understanding of the various scriptures. Surely you will admit that not everything fits together perfectly for you, and you know that some verses are more difficult to explain than others, so perhaps that's a sign that you're missing something.

Imagine a world in which the book of Revelation was written in 64 AD, and was fulfilled almost entirely in 70 AD. What would that do to your eschatology?

keras · Dec 17, 2020

Freedm said:
There is a future physical return of Jesus, but there will be no desecration of any temple possible without it being holy, and how can that be possible in light of the new covenant?

The New Covenant is not fully implemented as yet. It will be when Jesus Returns.
The new Temple built by the faithful Christian peoples, who will form the nation of Beulah, Isaiah 62:1-5, in all of the holy Land and the Shekinah glory of God will come into it. Ezekiel 43:1-5

Berean Tim · Dec 17, 2020

Freedm said:
I agree that Daniel 8 refers to Antiochus, but the abomination in Daniel 9 refers to the time of the Roman siege, most likely when the Roman Procurator Gessius Florus brought his troops into the temple in May of 66 AD to take gold from the temple. He would've brought the Roman Eagle insignia.

This is the abomination Jesus warned of in Matthew 24 and the Christians of that time would've taken the cue from this to leave the city of Jerusalem and escape to the mountains of Pella.

So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

It's interesting to note that Josephus records that not a single Christian died during the siege of Jerusalem in 70 AD, just as the author of 1 Thessalonians 5:9 foretold when he said "God did not appoint us to suffer wrath" and as Jesus confirmed in the Revelation when he said "I will keep you from the hour of trial" in Revelation 3:10. Those Christians were not in darkness that the hour should overtake them, but indeed they were watchful and escaped the wrath that fell upon Jerusalem.

1.8 million people died in Jerusalem during that time, but not a single Christian among them.

I disagree with your assertion that we have yet a future one world government "anti-christ" figure to look forward to.

Who then "was" the AC ? Why was every church father in the 1st & 2nd century still looking for him. Did they all miss it ? Who took his seat in the Temple and proclaim himself God ? 2nd Thessalonians On that, if the "end" was the destruction of the Temple, why were the Thessalonians so worried about it ?
The 70AD doctrine doesn't answer a lot of questions. The biggest is how the church missed the "coming of the Lord"

Timtofly · Dec 17, 2020

Freedm said:
Imagine a world in which the book of Revelation was written in 64 AD, and was fulfilled almost entirely in 70 AD. What would that do to your eschatology?

We would have no eschatology period.

Why Antiochus was not the little horn

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

Well-Known Member

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

Well-Known Member

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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