A little season

Zao is life

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Apparently, some Amils do have the little season in Revelation 6:11 meaning the same thing as the thousand years if they have both of these things taking place over the past 2000 years, the thousand years in Revelation 20 to them. That indicates that a little season in comparison to a thousand years is not a shorter period of time but is the same length of time. If that concept could work, that a little season per Revelation 6:11, meaning 42 months according to Revelation 13:5, can equal a long period of time, such as 2000 years, why doesn't that same concept work in Revelation 20 as well, that the little season after the thousand years is not really after the thousand years, but is instead during the thousand years, and that this little season is not shorter in length but is the same length as the thousand years?
I can't comment because I don't know the Amil position on how long the little season in Revelation 6:11 lasts, if it runs parallel to the full length of the thousand years or not. You seem to be under the impression that this is what most Amils beleieve. But I will say, tongue-in-cheek, that reading what you wrote above and in your OP takes a lot of concentration because it is just as complicated and confusing as Amil.
 
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My goodness, David. Your post was very long, which you acknowledged. Maybe too long, but I do appreciate your effort to be thorough about this. It's probably too much for most to take in with one post. But, I somehow had the patience and attention span to read it all (it wasn't easy, though!), but I'm not sure if many others will.

Since your post is so long, it will require a long response and I decided not to address every point that you made one by one because that would take forever. Instead, I will just give you my understanding of the "short time" of Revelation 12:12 and explain why I believe it is a different time period than the "little season" of Rev 6:11 and Rev 20:3. And, yes, I do equate the little season of Rev 6:11 with the "little season" of Rev 20:3 and I'll explain why in a bit.

We know that the New Testament was not written in English but rather in Greek, so there are times when it is necessary to dig deeper for understanding by looking at the Greek text. You don't have to be a Greek expert to do that. There are tools you can find online to help show you the Greek words and their definitions for each English word in an English translation.

Anyway, let's start with looking at the Greek words translated as "short time" in Rev 12:12 and "little season" in Rev 6:11 and Rev 20:3.

Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short (Greek: oligos - Strong's G3641) time (Greek: kairos - Strong's G2540).

I have seen a number of people reference this verse who, like you, assume that this "short time" that Satan gets to try to take out his wrath on Christians after being kicked out of heaven is a literally short amount of time.

The Greek word translated as "short" there is oligos and that word can be used to refer to a relatively small number of a limited number rather than a literally small number. Here is the best example of that I could find:

Matthew 22:14 For many are called, but few (Greek: oligos) are chosen.

This is what Jesus said after telling the parable where he compared entering the kingdom of heaven (being saved) with being invited to a wedding banquet. The ones initially invited (the Jews) mostly rejected the invitation and then the invitation went out to the highways (Gentile nations) after that and many (a multitude) end up being invited.

So, what Jesus was saying there was that many are called/invited to salvation and few are chosen/saved. Therefore, we know that even though few are chosen the number of which are chosen/saved is actually a large number (many millions or however many it is). It's just relatively few compared to the overall "many" who are called.

So, with that in mind, I believe that the "short time" of Revelation 12:12 is only meant to be understood as a relatively short and limited amount of time. Satan knows that his time is limited and that Christ defeated Him and that he can't accuse believers before God in heaven anymore, and he is aware of what Revelation 20:10 says about his destiny, and he's angry about all of that.

Another way to show that the "short time" Satan gets after being cast out of heaven is not a literal short amount of time is the fact that Christ's ascension is mentioned (Rev 12:5) just prior to the description of him being cast out of heaven. There was no place for Satan and his angels in heaven anymore once Christ ascended there. Revelation 12:10 says "for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.".

Now, it's very important to consider whether or not Satan is still able to accuse us before God in heaven day and night because that will tell us a lot about the timing of him being cast out of heaven. I believe the following passage makes it abundantly clear that he cannot possibly still be accusing us before God in heaven anymore.

Romans 8:31 What, then, shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34 Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us.

Who can make any accusation against God's people? No one. That would include Satan. Can this be any more clear about that? Why can no one accuse us? Because our sins are forgiven and covered by the blood of Christ. What can anyone accuse us of when that is the case? Nothing. So, Satan was cast out of heaven long ago when Christ died, rose again and ascended to the right hand of the Father in heaven.

Now, let's look at the Greek words translated as "little season" in both Revelation 6:11 and Revelation 20:3.

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little (Greek: mikros - Strong's G3398) season (Greek: chronos - Strong's G5550), until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Revelation 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little (Greek: mikros - Strong's G3398) season (Greek: chronos - Strong's G5550)

Notice that different Greek words are translated in Rev 6:11 and Rev 20:3 as "a little season" than are translated as "a short time" in Revelation 12:12. That's very important to note. In this case, the Greek word translated as "little" in Rev 6:11 and Rev 20:3 is "mikros" and that word, unlike "oligos", means a literal small/little number. And then the Greek word translated as "season" (chronos) in those verses refers to a period of time of any length. In this case, we know it's a "little" amount of time even though we don't know exactly how long.

So, to summarize, the "short time" of Revelation 12:12 refers to Satan's limited amount of time he has been given to try to persecute Christians since he was cast out of heaven long ago. The little season he is given after the thousand years to "deceive the nations" is a literally small amount of time rather than just a limited, but not literally small, amount of time.

My post has gotten pretty long at this point as well, but there is one last point I would like to make to show why I believe Revelation 6:11 is referring to the same "little season" Revelation 20:3.

If you read Revelation 6:9-11 you can see that the timing of it is when the fifth seal is opened. I believe the book of Revelation contains several recapitulations or parallel sections that all culminate with the return of Christ. So, I see the fifth trumpet as being parallel to the fifth seal.

Notice what happens at the fifth trumpet:

Revelation 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. 2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. 3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power...11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.

We know that Revelation 20 says that the dragon, Satan, is cast into the bottomless pit for a "thousand years" and is loosed when the thousand years end. And here in this passage, at the fifth trumpet, which we agree occurs before the return of Christ, the bottomless pit is opened. It has previously been sealed and locked which is exactly what is described in Rev 20:3 which says the dragon, Satan, is cast there to "shut him up, and set a seal upon him".

So, to me, Revelation 9 is describing the time when the fifth seal is opened and the fifth trumpet sounds and the souls in heaven ask "How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?" and Satan "is loosed out of his prison" (Rev 20:7).

Notice that the figurative "locusts" described in Revelation 9 have as their king "the angel of the bottomless pit". That means the locusts are angels as well. Fallen angels. Who do the fallen angels have as their king? Satan.

Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

So, Abaddon/Apollyon (English: Destroyer) is just another name for Satan. He has many names including Lucifer, Beelzebub, that old serpent, the Devil and Satan. Abaddon or Apollyon is just another of his names. Each one describes a character trait of his. In this case it's his trait of being a destroyer of people's lives.

So, Revelation 9 shows us when Satan is loosed from the bottomless pit, which will be at the fifth trumpet (Christ returns at the seventh and last trumpet).
I can't believe how I posted Post #60 and Post #61 after coming to this thread for the first time and reading the OP and David's second post. Then I came back to read what everyone else had posted and here in your post above you said the exact same things I did except for your belief regarding the millennium being symbolic of Calvary till the return of Christ, and Satan being bound. Otherwise everything I said in that post was the same as what you said in the above post, and I only read your post after posting my first post in this thread.

PS I believe that the dragon was cast out of heaven immediately after Calvary, and I believe he was enraged because he knew he was to be given a short time when the abyss has been opened.

I said that in Post #60 too.
 
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Zao is life

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So you found a translation that proves a point? It is understood that no one can condemn us, but the point of "Christ Jesus who died - more than that, who was raised to life - is at the right hand of God, and is also interceding for us." Is negated by this private interpretation added to God's Word. Satan can still accuse us, but cannot condemn us because Christ is also constantly day and night interceding for us. Do you deny this constant intercession?
Satan cannot accuse us. He cannot even appear before God anymore to accuse anybody. He was cast out of heaven. They who Satan had always accused "overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony. And they did not love their souls to the death." (Revelation 12:11). It's telling us that Jesus' blood paid for our sins (and theirs), and "by the word of their testimony" is telling us that faith is needed to receive this forgiveness, and "they did not love their souls to the death" is telling us that we need to remain faithful unto death, and we will receive the crown of life.

Revelation 12:1-11 is giving us the entire reason why Satan was cast out of heaven: The only reason the accuser could accuse the saints (us) before God was through the broken law of God, which we had broken - sin is the transgression of the law and until the law sin was in the world, and death through sin. So Satan had a legal right to appear before the throne of our judge and accuse us - we get a picture of this in Job also, where Satan was appearing before God to accuse Job.

Once Christ had died for our sins and risen again, and had been caught up to God and to his throne,
Satan was no longer able to accuse anyone anymore. That's why he was cast out - he was cast out legally.

The text strongly implies that he nevertheless did not leave with a fight. If a President loses an election and refuses to leave the White House, then the police or CIA or whoever will have to go into the White House and force him out. Except that Satan wasn't the President of anything. He's always been a wanna-be, and all he was, was the state's accuser and prosecutor, bringing the indictments against the saints to God. He refused to leave, though he had no legal right to stay, so Michael and his angels had to force him to go.

PS: I do not believe Trump lost the election. I believe it was stolen - but I'm giving this here as an example to show what Revelation 12:1-11 is telling us.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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I can't believe how I posted Post #60 and Post #61 after coming to this thread for the first time and reading the OP and David's second post. Then I came back to read what everyone else had posted and here in your post above you said the exact same things I did except for your belief regarding the millennium being symbolic of Calvary till the return of Christ, and Satan being bound. Otherwise everything I said in that post was the same as what you said in the above post, and I only read your post after posting my first post in this thread.

PS I believe that the dragon was cast out of heaven immediately after Calvary, and I believe he was enraged because he knew he was to be given a short time when the abyss has been opened.

I said that in Post #60 too.
Ha, that's funny. So, we're mostly on the same page here. Clearly, our only major disagreement at this point is on the timing of the thousand years, but we agree on a lot of other things and I'm glad about that.
 
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I've never imagined Revelation 6's witnesses who were to be martyred as NOT referring to those who are said to have been beheaded in Revelation 20. At the close of Revelation 20 we don't see anyone being martyred for faith in Jesus. We only see the Gog/Magog rebellion being stopped by fire come down from God out of heaven and consuming them.

Your post prompted me to look at the Greek words for short time, little time, little season etc:

Revelation 6:11
"And white robes were given to each one of them. And it was said to them that they should rest yet for a little (mikrós) time (chrónos), until both their fellow servants and their brothers (those about to be killed as they were) should have their number made complete."

μικρός mikrós
apparently a primary word;
small (in size, quantity, number or (figuratively) dignity):--least, less, little, small.

(The English word micro obsiously comes from the above).

χρόνος chrónos
of uncertain derivation;
a space of time.

Revelation 20:3
And he cast him into the abyss and shut him up and set a seal on him, that he should deceive the nations no more until the thousand years should be fulfilled. And after that he must be loosed a little (mikrós) time (chrónos).

The words used in Revelation 6:11 and Revelation 20:3 above are the same words, but are different to the words used in Revelation 12:12:

Revelation 12:12
"Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and those tabernacling in them. Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and in the sea! For the Devil came down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has but a little (olígos) time kairós."

ὀλίγος olígos
of uncertain affinity;
puny (in extent, degree, number, duration or value); especially neuter (adverbially) somewhat:--+ almost, brief(-ly), few, (a) little, + long, a season, short, small, a while.

καιρός kairós
of uncertain affinity;
an occasion, i.e. set or proper time:--X always, opportunity, (convenient, due) season, (due, short, while) time, a while.

For me it's simply a case of: Does Revelation 20 give the reason why the souls John as having been beheaded, were beheaded?, and if so, who was responsible for their beheading?

The clue is the reason why they were beheaded. There are two reasons given, which are part of the same thing: their actions (their witness to Christ) and their non-actions (they refused to worship the beast or his image or receive his mark or the number of his name).

To me no one who puts the ascension of the beast from the abyss at the close of the Age soon before the return of Christ can logically place this at the close of the millennium, because these martyred souls, who were beheaded, were seen by John living and reigning with Christ a thousand years, while the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This statement also implies that the martyred souls, who were beheaded for these reasons, lived again.

I believe the devil's 'short time' in Revelation 12 is the time in-between (a) The time when he was cast out of heaven (which the passage implies was immediately after Christ had been caught up to God and to His throne); and (b) the time he is bound.

The question I would ask is this: When Satan was cast out of heaven and to the earth, would he not have known that at the close of the Age very soon before the return of Christ, he would be given a short time during which he would reign in the world through the beast of Revelation 13 which Satan gives its seat, power, and great authority?

So to me, when the dragon was cast out of heaven, he probably knew he would be given a short time at the close of the Age starting with the time when he would be handed the key to the abyss to open the abyss. I do not believe that he is bound up till now, but until he is handed that key to open the abyss, his short time has not started in earnest. All he can do is to go around deceiving as best he knows how - and we are told by Jesus and by the apostles that this is exactly what he is doing, for now.
I agree with you that Satan was cast out of heaven when Christ was caught up to God the Father in heaven.

But, what you said at the end here, which was "all he can do is to go around deceiving as best he knows how...for now" is interesting because that is how Amil understands the nature of his binding. His binding means he is restrained from stopping the spread of the gospel rather than being unable to do anything.

However, if I'm understanding you correctly from what you said at the end of your post, do you realize that what you're saying means that you believe Satan will be given 2 future little seasons to wreak havoc on the world? One would be a little season to wreak havoc just before the return of Christ and the other being a thousand years later? What is the reason that Satan would be given 2 future little seasons to wreak havoc on the world unrestrained instead of just one as Amil believes?
 
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Zao is life

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Ha, that's funny. So, we're mostly on the same page here. Clearly, our only major disagreement at this point is on the timing of the thousand years, but we agree on a lot of other things and I'm glad about that.
It makes it a lot easier :thumbsup:
 
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I agree with you that Satan was cast out of heaven when Christ was caught up to God the Father in heaven.

But, what you said at the end here, which was "all he can do is to go around deceiving as best he knows how...for now" is interesting because that is how Amil understands the nature of his binding. His binding means he is restrained from stopping the spread of the gospel rather than being unable to do anything.

However, if I'm understanding you correctly from what you said at the end of your post, do you realize that what you're saying means that you believe Satan will be given 2 future little seasons to wreak havoc on the world? One would be a little season to wreak havoc just before the return of Christ and the other being a thousand years later? What is the reason that Satan would be given 2 future little seasons to wreak havoc on the world unrestrained instead of just one as Amil believes?
I'll put it to you using a similitude.

A king who owns all the land in his kingdom allows an adversary to deceive his subjects, and this adversary over time deceives almost all of the king's subjects, beginning with one woman and one man.

This adversary is allowed by the king to wreak havoc in his kingdom over and over again, though the king restricts him, and allows him at will, and though it's in the king's power to destroy the adversary and the rebellion against the king's authority which the deceit of the adversary generates.

If the king wants to prevent this adversary from doing this any longer then the king would either need to tie the adversary up and lock him up in a prison, or destroy him.

If we ask why our King did not bind and lock this adversary up in prison after His Son had died for our sins and risen again, or after the Jews were restored from Babylonian captivity, or after Israel entered the promised land, or after the saints were delivered from Egypt, or after the flood - and if we ask our King why He had not bound or destroyed the adversary before he even could approach the woman, then He will reply,

Isaiah 55:8-11
"For My thoughts are not your thoughts, nor your ways My ways, says the LORD.
For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts.
For as the rain comes down, and the snow from the heavens, and does not return there, but waters the earth, and makes it bring out and bud, and give seed to the sower and bread to the eater;
so shall My word be, which goes out of My mouth; it shall not return to Me void, but it shall accomplish what I please, and it shall certainly do what I sent it to do."

So if our King allows His adversary to continue to deceive, and even to open the abyss before Christ returns where the most evil of his angels have been bound since the days of Noah, and use these demonic forces at his disposal to give the final beastly world kingdom and human king his throne, seat & great authority and to make war against God's people and overcome them, then it's because our King has a reason why He does things the way He does them.

And if our King binds His adversary after this and locks him in prison for a thousand years while His Son is reigning, unhindered by the activities of the adversary, as the Son of Man should and will reign and as it was prophesied He will reign, and then the King lets the adversary out of jail on probation one last time to see what he and those who, after all this, STILL turn and follow the adversary will do, knowing that the adversary and those who follow him again after all this, will bring a rebellion against the King's authority again, and bring an army against the camp of the saints, then the King will be 100% just sevenfold, when at the time of the Great White Throne when death and hades have delivered up all the dead still in them, the King throws the adversary and all the rebels finally into the lake of fire where they will be eternally punished.

Our God is just - 100% just, sevenfold.
 
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I can't comment because I don't know the Amil position on how long the little season in Revelation 6:11 lasts, if it runs parallel to the full length of the thousand years or not. You seem to be under the impression that this is what most Amils beleieve.
It is not what I believe as I indicated in post #4 of this thread. As I indicated there, I believe the little season of Rev 6:11 is the same little season of Rev 20:3,7-9 which occurs after the thousand years and not parallel to the thousand years.

But I will say, tongue-in-cheek, that reading what you wrote above and in your OP takes a lot of concentration because it is just as complicated and confusing as Amil.
I honestly do not believe that Amil is complicated. In my view there are passages that clearly indicate that Christ's second coming is climactic and brings and end to sin and death and to this earth as we know it. So, when He comes believers will all experience the redemption of our bodies and inherit the eternal new heavens and new earth while unbelievers will all be punished and cast into the lake of fire. Pretty simple, really.
 
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I'll put it to you using a similitude.

A king who owns all the land in his kingdom allows an adversary to deceive his subjects, and this adversary over time deceives almost all of the king's subjects, beginning with one woman and one man.

This adversary is allowed by the king to wreak havoc in his kingdom over and over again, though the king restricts him, and allows him at will, and though it's in the king's power to destroy the adversary and the rebellion against the king's authority which the deceit of the adversary generates.

If the king wants to prevent this adversary from doing this any longer then the king would either need to tie the adversary up and lock him up in a prison, or destroy him.

If we ask why our King did not bind and lock this adversary up in prison after His Son had died for our sins and risen again, or after the Jews were restored from Babylonian captivity, or after Israel entered the promised land, or after the saints were delivered from Egypt, or after the flood - and if we ask our King why He had not bound or destroyed the adversary before he even could approach the woman, then He will reply,

Isaiah 55:8-11
"For My thoughts are not your thoughts, nor your ways My ways, says the LORD.
For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts.
For as the rain comes down, and the snow from the heavens, and does not return there, but waters the earth, and makes it bring out and bud, and give seed to the sower and bread to the eater;
so shall My word be, which goes out of My mouth; it shall not return to Me void, but it shall accomplish what I please, and it shall certainly do what I sent it to do."

So if our King allows His adversary to continue to deceive, and even to open the abyss before Christ returns where the most evil of his angels have been bound since the days of Noah, and use these demonic forces at his disposal to give the final beastly world kingdom and human king his throne, seat & great authority and to make war against God's people and overcome them, then it's because our King has a reason why He does things the way He does them.

And if our King binds His adversary after this and locks him in prison for a thousand years while His Son is reigning, unhindered by the activities of the adversary, as the Son of Man should and will reign and as it was prophesied He will reign, and then the King lets the adversary out of jail on probation one last time to see what he and those who, after all this, STILL turn and follow the adversary will do, knowing that the adversary and those who follow him again after all this, will bring a rebellion against the King's authority again, and bring an army against the camp of the saints, then the King will be 100% just sevenfold, when at the time of the Great White Throne when death and hades have delivered up all the dead still in them, the King throws the adversary and all the rebels finally into the lake of fire where they will be eternally punished.

Our God is just - 100% just, sevenfold.
So, basically, you're just saying only God knows why that would be and it's not explained in scripture. I appreciate the response, but that isn't an acceptable answer to me. I believe the answer is found in scripture as to how many little seasons without restraint Satan will be allowed and I believe if it was more than one then the reason why would be explained in scripture, in my opinion.
 
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It is not what I believe as I indicated in post #4 of this thread. As I indicated there, I believe the little season of Rev 6:11 is the same little season of Rev 20:3,7-9 which occurs after the thousand years and not parallel to the thousand years.

I honestly do not believe that Amil is complicated. In my view there are passages that clearly indicate that Christ's second coming is climactic and brings and end to sin and death and to this earth as we know it. So, when He comes believers will all experience the redemption of our bodies and inherit the eternal new heavens and new earth while unbelievers will all be punished and cast into the lake of fire. Pretty simple, really.
I saw you said that afterwards. I'm a little slow, only noticed this thread and started reading it today, sorry. I was talking tongue-in-cheek.

Amil does make sense, but so does Pre-mil, and if you read my Post #67 you will understand that to me, Amil has our God 100% just, six-fold, but Premil has Him 100% just, seven-fold. The lake of fire is a terrible thing. God will have been 100% just, seven-fold and be seen to be 100% just, seven-fold if He allows Satan his little season at the end of this Age, and then one last time at the close of the seventh.

Seven representing completion and fullness.
 
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I saw you said that afterwards. I'm a little slow, only noticed this thread and started reading it today, sorry. I was talking tongue-in-cheek.
Yeah, I get that but you said that about David's original post as well and his original post truly is complicated. Anyway, it doesn't matter. I get what you're saying and it's fine.

Amil does make sense, I but so does Pre-mil, and if you read my Post #67 you will understand that to me, Amil has our God 100% just, six-fold, but Premil has Him 100% just, seven-fold. The lake of fire is a terrible thing. God will have been 100% just, seven-fold and be seen to be 100% just, seven-fold if He allows Satan his little season at the end of this Age, and then one last time at the close of the seventh.

Seven representing completion and fullness.
I did read your post #67, but I don't see how it explains what you said here. I really have no idea of what you're trying to say here. Can you elaborate on what you mean by "six-fold" and "seven-fold"? More importantly, where is that concept taught in scripture?
 
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So, basically, you're just saying only God knows why that would be and it's not explained in scripture. I appreciate the response, but that isn't an acceptable answer to me. I believe the answer is found in scripture as to how many little seasons without restraint Satan will be allowed and I believe if it was more than one then the reason why would be explained in scripture, in my opinion.
I believe it is explained in scripture. You just read the scriptures differently to me so you believe your own words when you say, "It's not explained or shown in scripture". But you're only expressing what you believe. I DO see it in scripture.

In exactly the same way that no one can rip Daniel 9:27 out of its chronological place from Daniel 9:24-47 without mentally inserting a different meaning into the text, and yet all those who are convinced Daniel 9:27 has not yet been fulfilled will continue to do so and say, "it is explained in scripture", so you cannot believe that the thousand years of the Revelation (during which those who had been beheaded for their testimony to Christ and refusal to worship the beast are reigning), refers to a symbolic 1,990 years, without mentally inserting that into the text (because it's not there, in the text), and just as those who rip Daniel 9:27 out of its place will continue to find "Biblical reasons" why they do so, though the text itself gives no reason for it, so A-millennialists will continue to find "Biblical reasons" why a symbolic thousands-of-years period beginning with Calvary should be mentally inserted into Revelation 20.

Seven has to do with completion and fullness, and God is 100% just, seven-fold.

@Spiritual Jew More added to show how old the Premil belief is.

Even the epistle of Barnabus says very clearly and directly that there will be 6,000 years and then a 1,000 year period of peace. I'm not asking anyone to believe extra-Biblical books by mentioning the epistle of Barnabus, but only showing that the idea of a literal thousand years is very, very old. The epistle of Barnabus was accepted as sacred scripture by some early Christians. Wikipedia says its complete text is in the 4th century Codex Sinaiticus. For several centuries it was one of the "antilegomena" writings that some Christians looked on as sacred scripture, while others excluded them. Eusebius of Caesarea classified it as such. Epistle of Barnabas - Wikipedia.

It's not as though no one very early on never understood why God's final judgment will only
come at the close of the thousand years, which is the seventh millennium since Adam (or at least since time began to be measured in terms of the length of years people lived).

It's in the Bible. You can only fail to see it if you find reasons to mentally insert thousands of years into a text that says one thousand years.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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I believe it is explained in scripture. You just read the scriptures differently to me so you believe your own words when you say, "It's not explained or shown in scripture". But you're only expressing what you believe. I DO see it in scripture.

In exactly the same way that no one can rip Daniel 9:27 out of its chronological place from Daniel 9:24-47 without mentally inserting a different meaning into the text, and yet all those who are convinced Daniel 9:27 has not yet been fulfilled will continue to do so and say, "it is explained in scripture", so you cannot believe that the thousand years of the Revelation (during which those who had been beheaded for their testimony to Christ and refusal to worship the beast are reigning), refers to a symbolic 1,990 years, without mentally inserting that into the text (because it's not there, in the text), and just as those who rip Daniel 9:27 out of its place will continue to find "Biblical reasons" why they do so, though the text itself gives no reason for it, so A-millennialists will continue to find "Biblical reasons" why a symbolic thousands-of-years period beginning with Calvary should be mentally inserted into Revelation 20.

Seven has to do with completion and fullness, and God is 100% just, seven-fold.

@Spiritual Jew More added to show how old the Premil belief is.

Even the epistle of Barnabus says very clearly and directly that there will be 6,000 years and then a 1,000 year period of peace. I'm not asking anyone to believe extra-Biblical books by mentioning the epistle of Barnabus, but only showing that the idea of a literal thousand years is very, very old. The epistle of Barnabus was accepted as sacred scripture by some early Christians. Wikipedia says its complete text is in the 4th century Codex Sinaiticus. For several centuries it was one of the "antilegomena" writings that some Christians looked on as sacred scripture, while others excluded them. Eusebius of Caesarea classified it as such. Epistle of Barnabas - Wikipedia.

It's not as though no one very early on never understood why God's final judgment will only
come at the close of the thousand years, which is the seventh millennium since Adam (or at least since time began to be measured in terms of the length of years people lived).

It's in the Bible. You can only fail to see it if you find reasons to mentally insert thousands of years into a text that says one thousand years.
I don't like the way you are saying "mentally insert thousands of years". Should I say that you are mentally inserting other believers as having part in the first resurrection besides those who you believe are specifically mentioned (those beheaded and don't worship the beast during a future time period)?

As for the rest of what you said, I think you missed that what I meant wasn't that premil isn't explained (from your perspective). I meant that any reasoning for Satan to be allowed to have 2 little seasons isn't explained. What you said here honestly makes no sense to me, so we will have to agree to disagree on the timing of the thousand years for now.
 
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Timtofly

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Satan cannot accuse us. He cannot even appear before God anymore to accuse anybody. He was cast out of heaven. They who Satan had always accused "overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony. And they did not love their souls to the death." (Revelation 12:11). It's telling us that Jesus' blood paid for our sins (and theirs), and "by the word of their testimony" is telling us that faith is needed to receive this forgiveness, and "they did not love their souls to the death" is telling us that we need to remain faithful unto death, and we will receive the crown of life.

Revelation 12:1-11 is giving us the entire reason why Satan was cast out of heaven: The only reason the accuser could accuse the saints (us) before God was through the broken law of God, which we had broken - sin is the transgression of the law and until the law sin was in the world, and death through sin. So Satan had a legal right to appear before the throne of our judge and accuse us - we get a picture of this in Job also, where Satan was appearing before God to accuse Job.

Once Christ had died for our sins and risen again, and had been caught up to God and to his throne,
Satan was no longer able to accuse anyone anymore. That's why he was cast out - he was cast out legally.

The text strongly implies that he nevertheless did not leave with a fight. If a President loses an election and refuses to leave the White House, then the police or CIA or whoever will have to go into the White House and force him out. Except that Satan wasn't the President of anything. He's always been a wanna-be, and all he was, was the state's accuser and prosecutor, bringing the indictments against the saints to God. He refused to leave, though he had no legal right to stay, so Michael and his angels had to force him to go.

PS: I do not believe Trump lost the election. I believe it was stolen - but I'm giving this here as an example to show what Revelation 12:1-11 is telling us.
Revelation 12 is showing us it happened at the 7th Trumpet. Revelation 12:6

6 and she fled into the desert, where she has a place prepared by God so that she can be taken care of for 1,260 days.

This is the same time as the 42 months of the 2 witnesses, and Satan's time. It is the sounding of the 7th Trumpet.

Many here want the last 1260 days, 42 months, of the 7 years to be in the 1st century, but it was not.

5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, the one who will rule all the nations with a staff of iron. But her child was snatched up to God and his throne.

Will rule the nations, meaning has not happened yet. Why? The son of God left earth for 1990 years. Satan is not cast out until the 7th Trumpet.

Verse 6 comes after the 1990 years, not before the Son of God left earth. So do verses 7-14. They have not happened yet. Not until the 7th Trumpet. You all claim the Second Coming is not until the 7th Trumpet, but all these things you are placing in the 1st century, happen after the Second Coming itself. These time frames of 1260 days and 42 months, do not even start until after the 7th Trumpet is already sounding, and way after the Second Coming. But people will hold onto their own private interpretations like the recap theory, which is just a theory until actually tested, then it will be too late to correct one's beliefs. It is good that it does not matter what one's eschatology is. If some bet their life on their eschatology, they would be dead humanity.
 
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Timtofly

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What is the reason that Satan would be given 2 future little seasons to wreak havoc on the world unrestrained instead of just one as Amil believes?

One of them does not happen. The main reason one little season is after Satan is cast out of heaven at the 7th Trumpet. The other being after he is bound for 1000 years.

Satan gets 42 months and that is not a little season. A season is a time. So Satan gets 3 and a half seasons when booted out of heaven. Was that 42 months at the time of Pentecost for 3.5 years? I think not. There is no Scripture nor historical record where Satan was known to control the vineyard between the Jews and the church. Satan still has access to the throne and was never bound. The Holy Spirit has restrained Satan since the Garden of Eden. Did not stop Adam from disobedience. Did not stop Cain from murder. Those two still exercised free will and did what they wanted to do. It was Eve that was deceived, not Adam. Nations are still deceived, because they are run by humans who listen to Satan. But the Holy Spirit still holds Satan in check. Always has, and will up until the 6th Seal. No, the 6th Seal is not the battle of Armageddon. That is the 6th vial that prepares the 10 kings for this 1 hour battle. The end of the 7th Trumpet is the battle of Armageddon.
 
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So, basically, you're just saying only God knows why that would be and it's not explained in scripture. I appreciate the response, but that isn't an acceptable answer to me. I believe the answer is found in scripture as to how many little seasons without restraint Satan will be allowed and I believe if it was more than one then the reason why would be explained in scripture, in my opinion.
Satan is given 42 months to run the vineyard unchecked by anything but 2 human males, who are a thorn in his side. Then Christ rules the vineyard unchecked by Satan who is bound and cannot do a wicked thing about it. But those 1000 years produces humans who do not even know who Satan is, unless some underground mafia escapes the iron rod enough to keep faith in Satan alive. That is mere speculation so no human for 1000 years even knows who Satan is or did. That is why he is loosed a little season, just like he was free to walk around the Garden of Eden. Those humans will have a choice between life and death like all of humanity has had. The only alt. is amil, which declares God cannot have His 1000 years. Nope, nada, their theology forbids God to have a perfect sin free environment. Like the Sadducees who forbade a resurrection, they forbid God His 1000 years of Christ on earth with an iron rod rule. It also includes a bodily resurrection in an incorruptible body free of sin and death by sin. They even had corroboration from the OT. Sudden destruction and a climactic ending limits God, and taking Scripture out of context, or dismissing 2 thirds the book of Revelation, is the only way nothing else happens after the Second Coming. And the Second Coming is not at the battle of Armageddon. The 7th Trumpet has already been sounding for 3.5 years. Anything of God, happened the 1st 3 days. The rest is history left to Satan to figure out what program to run. Thank God it is only 3.5 years, the same amount of time Christ had in His first earthly ministry. See Amil do not even acknowledge this 42 months because it cannot fit in a 24 hour day. Why are they borrowing the little season of the 5th Seal? Satan gets the leftovers, not the vineyard before the final harvest. Is Satan getting 42 months the issue? That seems to have enough Scripture in Revelation to allow it. Why give Satan more than John did in his writings, without changing them and turning Revelation upside down just to prove a point? We all know it is Satan who is exposed for deceiving the nations. Do we need literal proof of that before the Second Coming? Hiding Satan in amil eschatology does not make sense.

Saying a future rule with an iron rod is now, does not make sense. Ask any President of any nation if they accept Christ's authority? Just because one makes it a theory or feel good thought, most rulers today would probably not even agree on the same God or any Biblical teachings on how to govern their people. How is this rule practical, when most leaders would rather martyr Christians instead of being governed by them. The church and state were never to be a single authority, until the Prince of Peace rules. That was and is the failure of the harlot in Bible prophecy.
 
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I don't like the way you are saying "mentally insert thousands of years". Should I say that you are mentally inserting other believers as having part in the first resurrection besides those who you believe are specifically mentioned (those beheaded and don't worship the beast during a future time period)?

As for the rest of what you said, I think you missed that what I meant wasn't that premil isn't explained (from your perspective). I meant that any reasoning for Satan to be allowed to have 2 little seasons isn't explained. What you said here honestly makes no sense to me, so we will have to agree to disagree on the timing of the thousand years for now.
This is why your claim that there is no second little season mentioned in the scriptures is false, and this is also how the false claim is produced in your mind:

Revelation 12:12
Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and those tabernacling in them. Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and in the sea! For the Devil came down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has but a little time (oligos kairos).

Revelation 13:2, 5
And the beast which I saw was like a leopard, and its feet like those of a bear, and its mouth like the mouth of a lion. And the dragon gave him its power and its seat and great authority.

And a mouth speaking great things was given to it, and blasphemies. And authority was given to it to continue forty-two months.

Revelation 20:2, 7
And he cast him into the abyss and shut him up and set a seal on him, that he should deceive the nations no more until the thousand years should be fulfilled. And after that he must be loosed a little time (mikros chronos).

And when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be loosed out of his prison. And he will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle. The number of them is as the sand of the sea.

The text of Revelation 20 speaks of a thousand years, and uses a Greek word for 'thousand' which everywhere else speaks of a one-thousand number, so if you believe the thousand years is talking about thousands of years, then you have to mentally insert thousands of years into the text of Revelation 20 when you read the text. So if you don't mentally insert thousands of years into the text of Revelation 20 where the text says a thousand years, then you have not one but two "little seasons" or "short whiles" mentioned for Satan - one at the end of the Age, and one at the close of the thousand years - both written IN THE REVELATION.

Obviously, if you believe the thousand years is not literal, then aside from having to mentally insert thousands of years into the text where the text says a thousand years, you have to mentally subtract the second little season mentioned IN THE SCRIPTURE, and combine it with the first little season mentioned in the scripture.

This is all fine if this is the way you see it - as long as you don't keep on falsely claiming there is no second little season mentioned for Satan in the scripture, because there is a second time a little season is mentioned for Satan in the Revelation, but naturally, if you don't believe the thousand years is literal, then you have to combine the second time a little season or short time for Satan is mentioned, with the reign of the beast of Revelation 13, which is why you end up believing there is only one little season mentioned for Satan in the Revelation, and that the same little season is mentioned twice (once before Revelation 20 when the beast ascends out of the abyss, and once IN Revelation 20).

Just because Amil sees the second mention of the little season as mentioning again (for a second time) what takes place at the close of a thousand years which is thousands of years, does not mean the second mention of a little season for Satan is not there.
 
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Revelation 12 is showing us it happened at the 7th Trumpet. Revelation 12:6

6 and she fled into the desert, where she has a place prepared by God so that she can be taken care of for 1,260 days.

This is the same time as the 42 months of the 2 witnesses, and Satan's time. It is the sounding of the 7th Trumpet.

Many here want the last 1260 days, 42 months, of the 7 years to be in the 1st century, but it was not.

5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, the one who will rule all the nations with a staff of iron. But her child was snatched up to God and his throne.

Will rule the nations, meaning has not happened yet. Why? The son of God left earth for 1990 years. Satan is not cast out until the 7th Trumpet.

Verse 6 comes after the 1990 years, not before the Son of God left earth. So do verses 7-14. They have not happened yet. Not until the 7th Trumpet. You all claim the Second Coming is not until the 7th Trumpet, but all these things you are placing in the 1st century, happen after the Second Coming itself. These time frames of 1260 days and 42 months, do not even start until after the 7th Trumpet is already sounding, and way after the Second Coming. But people will hold onto their own private interpretations like the recap theory, which is just a theory until actually tested, then it will be too late to correct one's beliefs. It is good that it does not matter what one's eschatology is. If some bet their life on their eschatology, they would be dead humanity.
I think that the Christian who assumes that his understanding of eschatology is 100% correct when his understanding differs from thousands of others, has probably only got his eschatology 10% correct. And since this is talking about nearly every Christian, it means that Christians only have 10% understanding of what God is saying when it comes to eschatology.
 
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This is why your claim that there is no second little season mentioned in the scriptures is false, and this is also how the false claim is produced in your mind:

Revelation 12:12
Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and those tabernacling in them. Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and in the sea! For the Devil came down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has but a little time (oligos kairos).

Revelation 13:2, 5
And the beast which I saw was like a leopard, and its feet like those of a bear, and its mouth like the mouth of a lion. And the dragon gave him its power and its seat and great authority.

And a mouth speaking great things was given to it, and blasphemies. And authority was given to it to continue forty-two months.

Revelation 20:2, 7
And he cast him into the abyss and shut him up and set a seal on him, that he should deceive the nations no more until the thousand years should be fulfilled. And after that he must be loosed a little time (mikros chronos).

And when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be loosed out of his prison. And he will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle. The number of them is as the sand of the sea.

The text of Revelation 20 speaks of a thousand years, and uses a Greek word for 'thousand' which everywhere else speaks of a one-thousand number, so if you believe the thousand years is talking about thousands of years, then you have to mentally insert thousands of years into the text of Revelation 20 when you read the text. So if you don't mentally insert thousands of years into the text of Revelation 20 where the text says a thousand years, then you have not one but two "little seasons" or "short whiles" mentioned for Satan - one at the end of the Age, and one at the close of the thousand years - both written IN THE REVELATION.

Obviously, if you believe the thousand years is not literal, then aside from having to mentally insert thousands of years into the text where the text says a thousand years, you have to mentally subtract the second little season mentioned IN THE SCRIPTURE, and combine it with the first little season mentioned in the scripture.

This is all fine if this is the way you see it - as long as you don't keep on falsely claiming there is no second little season mentioned for Satan in the scripture, because there is a second time a little season is mentioned for Satan in the Revelation, but naturally, if you don't believe the thousand years is literal, then you have to combine the second time a little season or short time for Satan is mentioned, with the reign of the beast of Revelation 13, which is why you end up believing there is only one little season mentioned for Satan in the Revelation, and that the same little season is mentioned twice (once before Revelation 20 when the beast ascends out of the abyss, and once IN Revelation 20).

Just because Amil sees the second mention of the little season as mentioning again (for a second time) what takes place at the close of a thousand years which is thousands of years, does not mean the second mention of a little season for Satan is not there.
Sorry, but none of what you said here makes any sense to me. When I say he won't get two little seasons I'm talking about him getting a literal short amount of time that he is completely unrestrained. I don't equate the "short time" (not literally short, but limited) mentioned in Rev 12:12-17 that he makes war with the saints after he was cast out of heaven long ago with "the little season" of Rev 20:3.

I thought you agreed with me that he was cast out of heaven when Christ ascended there long ago and that the "short time" he was given after that was not a literal short amount of time like the "little season" after the thousand years? And that is because of the difference in the Greek words used for "short time" compared to "little season". Have you changed your mind about that?
 
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Sorry, but none of what you said here makes any sense to me. When I say he won't get two little seasons I'm talking about him getting a literal short amount of time that he is completely unrestrained. I don't equate the "short time" (not literally short, but limited) mentioned in Rev 12:12-17 that he makes war with the saints after he was cast out of heaven long ago with "the little season" of Rev 20:3.

I thought you agreed with me that he was cast out of heaven when Christ ascended there long ago and that the "short time" he was given after that was not a literal short amount of time like the "little season" after the thousand years? And that is because of the difference in the Greek words used for "short time" compared to "little season". Have you changed your mind about that?
No I have not changed my mind and I think you know that I have not, because I did not change what I said earlier when I mentioned that it seems to me he was enraged when he was cast out of heaven because he knew that all he was going to have was a little season - and I spoke about two little seasons (either that or you brought up two "little seasons", as you can see in my quote of your post below) - once before the thousand years (at the close of the Age when the beast ascends out of the abyss and Satan rules through the beast), and once at the close of the thousand years which follow, when Satan is released again for a little season ( the mikros chronos spoken of in Revelation 20:3)
@Spiritual Jew
I meant that any reasoning for Satan to be allowed to have 2 little seasons isn't explained. What you said here honestly makes no sense to me, so we will have to agree to disagree on the timing of the thousand years for now.
Do you admit that in order to combine the above mention of Satan's little season in Revelation 20:3 with his short time at the end of this Age (when as the destroyer and king of the demonic forces that come out of the abyss, he deceives the whole world using the false prophet), you have to mentally insert thousands of years into Revelation 20 when you read the text which says a thousand years? Because is it's a thousand years as the text says, then for Satan to be allowed to have 2 little seasons is indeed explained.
 
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