Do you believe in the “caught up together” event in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17?

Timtofly · Dec 15, 2020

harmonicaman said:
Are you saying the rapture is found in the 5th and 6th seal?

Both the rapture, bodily change and the Second Coming so God and the Lamb can carry out the final harvest during the 6 Trumpets and 7 Thunders. The Trumpets are for the sheep and goat harvest, ie the Jews. Then the Thunders are for the wheat and tares of the Nations. Matthew 25:31-33

31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, accompanied by all the angels, he will sit on his glorious throne.
32 All the nations will be assembled before him, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates sheep from goats.
33 The ‘sheep’ he will place at his right hand and the ‘goats’ at his left.

There is only one Second Coming at the 5th and 6th Seal.

Timtofly · Dec 15, 2020

harmonicaman said:
If Mathew 24 teaches a mid-trib gathering, why did Jesus say the gathering occurs AFTER the tribulation?

The trib "of those days" is the 4th Seal.

It is not Satan's 42 months of the mark. That happens during the 7th Trumpet.

Timtofly · Dec 15, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
Actually....

We are told to pray so that we may escape all these things mentioned within the Tribulation:

• Luke 21:36

Jesus says,
"Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."

What things shall we escape if we pray?

• Luke 21:10

"Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom"

• Revelation 6:4

"...and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another..."

• Luke 21:11

"And great earthquakes..."

• Revelation 6:12

"...and, lo, there was a great earthquake;"

• Luke 21:11

"...and famines..."

• Revelation 6:5-6

"And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand. And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine."

But if you believe otherwise, then please share the exact verse or passage and highlight the appropriate words for us. Oh, and if what you say is true, then what do you make of the verses I presented? You should explain that, too.

He is talking to the Jews not the church. There is no hiding in the 4th Seal. 25% of humanity will die.

Timtofly · Dec 15, 2020

robycop3 said:
"Abraham's bosom" is simply another term for paradise. After all, Abe is there.

Paradise had an angel with a flaming sword blocking the entrance, even for souls. No one went there until the Atonement on the Cross.

Why you think people still go to sheol is beyond understanding. God does not have enough room in heaven? Does the New Jerusalem raise out of sheol?

Bible Highlighter · Dec 15, 2020

Timtofly said:
He is talking to the Jews not the church. There is no hiding in the 4th Seal. 25% of humanity will die.

He is talking to followers of Christ. If Christ is not talking to the church, then we might as well rip Matthew 24 out of our Bibles and throw it away. The Olivet discourse is repeated in the gospels written to a Gentile audience, as well.

Christ lets us know of a point in the future when all nations will hate His followers. Jesus lets us that His disciples will be persecuted, hated and killed. The question is: Why? "On account of My name," Jesus says (24:9). The gospel of Mark says,

"But be on your guard; for they will deliver you to the courts, and you will be flogged in the synagogues, and you will stand before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them. The gospel must first be preached to all the nations. When they arrest you and hand you over, do not worry beforehand about what you are to say, but say whatever is given you in that hour; for it is not you who speak, but it is the Holy Spirit." (Mark 13:9-11)

This is to all future followers of Jesus Christ. For God's plan and scope of believers today is not just to the Jew, but to the Gentile, as well (of which we see when Cornelius accepted Jesus Christ).

When Jesus returns, the saints will not just be Jews, but they will be Gentile believers, as well. Thus it was written to all believers.

Timtofly · Dec 15, 2020

harmonicaman said:
When Jesus saw Mary after the resurrection, Jesus told her that He had not ascended to the Father yet (John 20:17). That would be a blatant lie if Jesus did go to the 'third heaven' while in the grave!

God was on the Cross as well as the Holy Spirit because it was God's Atonement not the physical human body's Atonement. God an the Holy Spirit told the thief he would be with them in Paradise, the temple of God. The human body went into the tomb. The Word, the soul and spirit went to Abraham's bosom because a split second later the bodies were already walking around Jerusalem. Jesus met Mary as a Ghost that had no flesh and could not be touched. The OT bodies ascended with Jesus into Paradise and that afternoon Jesus had an incorruptible body when he met with the two disciples on the road and ate with them. Mark 16:12

12 After that, Yeshua appeared in another form to two of them as they were walking into the country.

Jesus ascended between meeting with Mary and the other meetings later that day.

Timtofly · Dec 15, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
He is talking to followers of Christ. If Christ is not talking to the church, then we might as well rip Matthew 24 out of our Bibles and throw it away. The Olivet discourse is repeated in the gospels written to a Gentile audience, as well.

Christ lets us know of a point in the future when all nations will hate His followers. Jesus lets us that His disciples will be persecuted, hated and killed. The question is: Why? "On account of My name," Jesus says (24:9). The gospel of Mark says,

"But be on your guard; for they will deliver you to the courts, and you will be flogged in the synagogues, and you will stand before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them. The gospel must first be preached to all the nations. When they arrest you and hand you over, do not worry beforehand about what you are to say, but say whatever is given you in that hour; for it is not you who speak, but it is the Holy Spirit." (Mark 13:9-11)

This is to all future followers of Jesus Christ. For God's plan and scope of believers today is not just to the Jew, but to the Gentile, as well (of which we see when Cornelius accepted Jesus Christ).

When Jesus returns, the saints will not just be Jews, but they will be Gentile believers, as well. Thus it was written to all believers.

And no one is alive today except John of those He was talking to. He was addressing the Jews prior to the Cross. And most of those Jews turned into an angry mob yelling crucify Him. Yes His disciples and their disciples were all killed for spreading the Gospel.

Just because the Jews rejected Jesus as their Messiah and Israel still rejects Jesus today, does not mean Jesus was not addressing them. It was the Jews who had the vineyard taken away from them. Do you think Jesus was talking about the church rejecting Jesus as the Messiah and the vineyard taken away from the church?

Bible Highlighter · Dec 16, 2020

Timtofly said:
And no one is alive today except John of those He was talking to. He was addressing the Jews prior to the Cross. And most of those Jews turned into an angry mob yelling crucify Him. Yes His disciples and their disciples were all killed for spreading the Gospel.

Just because the Jews rejected Jesus as their Messiah and Israel still rejects Jesus today, does not mean Jesus was not addressing them. It was the Jews who had the vineyard taken away from them. Do you think Jesus was talking about the church rejecting Jesus as the Messiah and the vineyard taken away from the church?

Christ talks about those in the future who have the Holy Ghost. It's the church, buddy. What do you think happened at Pentecost and with Cornelius? The Spirit came upon both the Jew and the Gentile.

Timtofly · Dec 16, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
Christ talks about those in the future who have the Holy Ghost. It's the church, buddy. What do you think happened at Pentecost and with Cornelius? The Spirit came upon both the Jew and the Gentile.

That happened 1990 years ago. This is the Second Coming, not the first coming any more.

robycop3 · Dec 16, 2020

Timtofly said:
Paradise had an angel with a flaming sword blocking the entrance, even for souls. No one went there until the Atonement on the Cross.

Why you think people still go to sheol is beyond understanding. God does not have enough room in heaven? Does the New Jerusalem raise out of sheol?

The New J won't be inhabited til God brings it to earth. Jesus went to sheol's paradise area, He returned here from it, & when He ascended to heaven, He didn't take anyone with Him. Sheol will be cast into the LOF after it's emptied of souls. Why would God keep it around that long if it were already empty & not being used ?

Bible Highlighter · Dec 16, 2020

Timtofly said:
That happened 1990 years ago. This is the Second Coming, not the first coming any more.

I am pretty sure the events in Revelation have not happened. While Revelation has a lot of metaphors in it, any reasonable person would conclude that the end times in Revelation have not come to pass unless one attempts to make all of Revelation a metaphor (Which is totally illogical and unwarranted). For we read Scripture literally unless another verse or passage tells us otherwise or unless it does not fit within the norm of reality (in most cases).

Timtofly · Dec 16, 2020

robycop3 said:
The New J won't be inhabited til God brings it to earth. Jesus went to sheol's paradise area, He returned here from it, & when He ascended to heaven, He didn't take anyone with Him. Sheol will be cast into the LOF after it's emptied of souls. Why would God keep it around that long if it were already empty & not being used ?

Paradise is the Garden of Eden. One day it will come out of heaven as the New Jerusalem.

You may say it is eternally empty, but it is not under the earth, but in heaven.

robycop3 · Dec 16, 2020

Timtofly said:
Paradise is the Garden of Eden. One day it will come out of heaven as the New Jerusalem.

You may say it is eternally empty, but it is not under the earth, but in heaven.

No, it isn't. Paradise is part of hades. And the New J is only empty NOW, if God has made it yet. (Remember, He can make it instantly!)

robycop3 · Dec 16, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
I am pretty sure the events in Revelation have not happened. While Revelation has a lot of metaphors in it, any reasonable person would conclude that the end times in Revelation have not come to pass unless one attempts to make all of Revelation a metaphor (Which is totally illogical and unwarranted). For we read Scripture literally unless another verse or passage tells us otherwise or unless it does not fit within the norm of reality (in most cases).

Making all of Rev into metaphors/figurative speech is a preterist thingie, as they otherwise cannot deal with the fact that the eschatological events haven't yet occurred. And its symbolism always represents something literal.

Bible Highlighter · Dec 16, 2020

robycop3 said:
Making all of Rev into metaphors/figurative speech is a preterist thingie, as they otherwise cannot deal with the fact that the eschatological events haven't yet occurred. And its symbolism always represents something literal.

I agree.

fwGod · Dec 16, 2020

It's nearing Christmas then there's New Years.. so I want to be working on having a cheerful attitude for the holidays.. this topic has pulled me into the negative which isn't edifying to anyone.. therefore I won't be participating any further in this thread.

I admire everyone who can keep the right attitude while disagreeing concerning this topic. I apologize for any unpleasantness that anyone experienced when reading my posts.

jeffweedaman · Dec 16, 2020

fwGod said:
It's nearing Christmas then there's New Years.. so I want to be working on having a cheerful attitude for the holidays.. this topic has pulled me into the negative which isn't edifying to anyone.. therefore I won't be participating any further in this thread.

I admire everyone who can keep the right attitude while disagreeing concerning this topic. I apologize for any unpleasantness that anyone experienced when reading my posts.

Happy holidays to you.
Sorry i didnt reply to post right away....# 712
God willing we shall meet again next year.

Spiritual Jew · Dec 16, 2020

fwGod said:
It's nearing Christmas then there's New Years.. so I want to be working on having a cheerful attitude for the holidays.. this topic has pulled me into the negative which isn't edifying to anyone.. therefore I won't be participating any further in this thread.

I admire everyone who can keep the right attitude while disagreeing concerning this topic. I apologize for any unpleasantness that anyone experienced when reading my posts.

It's okay. None of it should be taken personally. We're all passionate about the word of God and about defending it, which is a good thing.

Spiritual Jew · Dec 16, 2020

jeffweedaman said:
Happy holidays to you.
Sorry i didnt reply to post right away....# 712
God willing we shall meet again next year.

What's this "Happy holidays" stuff, man? Merry CHRISTmas!

I'm just messing with you.

Dan Perez · Dec 16, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
There are a lot of folks who deny the Rapture altogether. They say the word “Rapture” is not in the Bible and thus it means there is no Rapture. I am here to say that there is an event that sounds a lot like the Rapture, but I am going to call it by it's biblical name.

The “caught up together” event.
If you don't believe this event is biblical, it can be found in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17. The words “caught up together” is taken from the Bible.
Do you deny this passage or portion of Scripture?
Does it not sound like a Rapture event?
Even if the name Rapture does not appear in the Bible, the event in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 seems a lot like the Rapture.

Hi BH and it is true bthat there is NO Greek word for RAPTURE !!

But in 2 Thess 2:1 there is the Greek word COMING / PAROUSIA , even are GATHERING TOGATHER UNTO HIM !!

Also in Gal 1:4 we have the Greek word DELIVER / EXAIREO and nthat Greek word is translated , PLUCK OUT in Matt 5:29 and also in Matt 18:9 and translated RESCUE in Acts 23:27 !!

dan p

Do you believe in the “caught up together” event in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17?

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