Do you believe in the “caught up together” event in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17?

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,433
7,859
...
✟1,187,903.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
1Thes. 4:13 "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep,..."

V. 15 - "For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the COMING/PAROISIA of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep."

v. 16 - "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:"

V. 17 - "Then we which are alive and remain shall be 'CAUGHT UP/HARPAZO' together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

The 'parousia and harpazo' happen together. There's not a seven year gap between verse 15 and 17. What pre-trib had to do to overcome this blatant contradiction is to change the meaning of the 'parousia'.

PAROUSIA - the future visible return from heaven of Jesus, to raise the dead, hold the last judgment, and set up formally and gloriously the kingdom of God.

Pre-trib changed the meaning of the parousia, the Day of the Lord, the last trump, they've fabricated ANOTHER return of Christ and another rapture! etc. etc.

So why do pre-tribbers find it necessary to say that the second coming is a different event than the rapture - EVEN THOUGH THEY ARE FOUND IN THE SAME PASSAGE? Because in Mathew 24 Jesus clearly states the gathering occurs AFTER the tribulation!


-------------------------

If anything, Matthew 24 teaches a Mid Trib gathering up. I believe that, too. Why? Because the Abominations of Desolations happens (the Antichrist desocrates the Jewish temple), and then we are told to look up for our redemption draws near. You need to understand that...

#1. The 4th seal is death (i.e. the enforcement of the Mark of the beast),
#2. The 5th seal are the saints crying for vengeance in Heaven who were just killed in the 4th seal, and:
#3. The 6th seal is God's response to the saints crying out for vengeance by bringing in the Day of the Lord (Which is the 6th seal, and the trumpet and bowl judgments).​

In other words, each of these seals has a purpose and they set the other one into motion.
 
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,433
7,859
...
✟1,187,903.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
If Mathew 24 teaches a mid-trib gathering, why did Jesus say the gathering occurs AFTER the tribulation?

Actually....

We are told to pray so that we may escape all these things mentioned within the Tribulation:

Luke 21:36


Jesus says,
"Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."
What things shall we escape if we pray?

Luke 21:10


"Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom"
Revelation 6:4

"...and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another..."
Luke 21:11

"And great earthquakes..."
Revelation 6:12

"...and, lo, there was a great earthquake;"
Luke 21:11

"...and famines..."
Revelation 6:5-6

"And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand. And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine."

But if you believe otherwise, then please share the exact verse or passage and highlight the appropriate words for us. Oh, and if what you say is true, then what do you make of the verses I presented? You should explain that, too.
 
Upvote 0

harmonicaman

Active Member
Dec 13, 2020
48
23
Northeast USA
✟8,086.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Republican
I have no idea where you're going with this. To 'escape' means to seek safety in flight. You think that means removal by rapture? I'll stick with believing Jesus where he said the gathering occurs AFTER the tribulation? Not before - not during - not in the middle of....
 
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,433
7,859
...
✟1,187,903.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I was just reading Matthew 24 and I am trying to read it from the Post Trib perspective.
I imagine that these two verses is what you believe teaches a Post Trib, right?

Matthew 24:30-31 says,
[30] “And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [31] And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”

But verse 30 could be talking about this....

“And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?” (Revelation 6:15-17).

But even if verse 30 is talking about the actual second coming of Christ (with Him about to wage war upon the nations), verse 31 could be in reference to simply those being gathered up in Heaven (Although I take this as a Mid Trib event).

What throws a monkey wrench into your Post Trib Rapture machine is this:

27 “And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.” (Luke 21:27-28).​

In other words, when we see these things BEGIN to come pass (those things mentioned in Luke 21 before verse 27-28) come to pass, we are told to look up, for our redemption draws near. This means our redemption is near. Christ is coming for us before all the really bad stuff happens. For God's people are not appointed unto Wrath.
 
Upvote 0

robycop3

Newbie
Sep 16, 2014
2,435
539
✟107,962.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
The abode of hell, Hades, is actually in... Paradise, not the other way around. Abraham's bosom represents one side in Paradise. Per Luke 16, there's a great gulf fixed border that separates where Abraham and Lazarus were from the abode of hell where the rich man was. The rich man was able to look over that gulf and see Abraham and Lazarus.
No, paradise is an area of hades, where the souls of the righteous dead go, for now. the lost go to 'torments'. Again, remember Jesus said He was going to paradise at His death, while several other Scriptures say He went to hades/sheol. Put 2 & 2 together.
 
Upvote 0

robycop3

Newbie
Sep 16, 2014
2,435
539
✟107,962.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
No, but God told the thief those words as much as the Holy Spirit and Word did. God was waiting for the thief in the temple of God, Paradise. Jesus' soul went to Abraham's bosom not Paradise. Paradise in hades is Greek mythology not God's Word. Unless you are a pagan, you have the wrong place. Abraham's bosom is empty and Paradise is now full.
"Abraham's bosom" is simply another term for paradise. After all, Abe is there.
 
Upvote 0

Davy

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Nov 25, 2017
4,861
1,022
USA
✟267,597.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
No, paradise is an area of hades, where the souls of the righteous dead go, for now. the lost go to 'torments'. Again, remember Jesus said He was going to paradise at His death, while several other Scriptures say He went to hades/sheol. Put 2 & 2 together.

You are mistaken. Luke 16 is the only... Bible Scripture giving us the detail of both sides in Paradise and the great gulf fixed between both sides.


Luke 16:19-26
19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
KJV
 
Upvote 0

sovereigngrace

Well-Known Member
Dec 9, 2019
8,983
3,447
USA
Visit site
✟200,167.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I was just reading Matthew 24 and I am trying to read it from the Post Trib perspective.
I imagine that these two verses is what you believe teaches a Post Trib, right?

Matthew 24:30-31 says,
[30] “And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [31] And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”

But verse 30 could be talking about this....

“And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?” (Revelation 6:15-17).

But even if verse 30 is talking about the actual second coming of Christ (with Him about to wage war upon the nations), verse 31 could be in reference to simply those being gathered up in Heaven (Although I take this as a Mid Trib event).

What throws a monkey wrench into your Post Trib Rapture machine is this:

27 “And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.” (Luke 21:27-28).​

In other words, when we see these things BEGIN to come pass (those things mentioned in Luke 21 before verse 27-28) come to pass, we are told to look up, for our redemption draws near. This means our redemption is near. Christ is coming for us before all the really bad stuff happens. For God's people are not appointed unto Wrath.

If you critique Posttrib through Pretrib glasses, of course it will not make sense. You need to put Pretrib to the side and analyze Posttrib objectively. Let Posttribbers speak for themselves, instead of you speaking on their behalf.

Where Prettribbers err is that they equate the wrath of God with some supposed future 7-year trib after the "rapture." But Scripture doesn't teach that. While God's wrath is on the wicked. His final wrath destroys all the wicked. That is what we escape when He comes at His one and only future final coming.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,433
7,859
...
✟1,187,903.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
If you critique Posttrib through Pretrib glasses, of course it will not make sense. You need to put Pretrib to the side and analyze Posttrib objectively. Let Posttribbers speak for themselves, instead of you speaking on their behalf.

Where Prettribbers err is that they equate the wrath of God with some supposed future 7-year trib after the "rapture." But Scripture doesn't teach that. While God's wrath is on the wicked. His final wrath destroys all the wicked. That is what we escape when He comes at His one and only future final coming.

When Does the Day of the Lord or the Day of Wrath Begin?

We know that the Day of the Lord = the Day of Wrath.

Zephaniah 1:14-15

"The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly. That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,"​

The Day of the Lord does not come at the sixth seal because we know that Joel talks about the sun, the blood moon are signs that come BEFORE the Day of the Lord.

Joel 2:31

"The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come."
Why is this important? Because the sixth seal is marked by the sun going dark, and the moon turning to blood.

Revelation 6:12

"And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;"​

Yet, the Day of the Lord is marked with signs BEFORE of the sun going dark, and the moon turning to blood.

Joel 2:31

The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.​

Conclusion:

This means that those who cry out at the sixth seal that the "Great Day of His Wrath has come" are merely talking about it in a future sense (and how it is now about to arrive). So the Wrath begins at the breaking of the 1st Trumpet, when God pours out the major judgments that effect the world in a huge way.
 
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,433
7,859
...
✟1,187,903.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
If you critique Posttrib through Pretrib glasses, of course it will not make sense. You need to put Pretrib to the side and analyze Posttrib objectively. Let Posttribbers speak for themselves, instead of you speaking on their behalf.

Where Prettribbers err is that they equate the wrath of God with some supposed future 7-year trib after the "rapture." But Scripture doesn't teach that. While God's wrath is on the wicked. His final wrath destroys all the wicked. That is what we escape when He comes at His one and only future final coming.

The Son of God (Christ) appears to the Earth sitting upon a Throne & The Wicked Panic and Say That the "Day of His Wrath" Has Come (Meaning: The Day of Wrath is Going to Soon Come Upon Them):

Revelation 6:14-17

“And the heavens departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the generals , and the mighty men, and every slave, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath has come; and who shall be able to stand?“
This is at the breaking of the sixth seal leading into the first trumpet. This is way before the Second Coming of Christ. Granted, I am open to the view that the wrath of God may start at the bowl judgments based on Revelation 15:1, but just reading about the intensity of the trumpet judgments appear to be the wrath of God coming upon the Earth; Especially seeing the inhabitants of the Earth have stated that His wrath has come in Revelation 6.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,433
7,859
...
✟1,187,903.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
If you critique Posttrib through Pretrib glasses, of course it will not make sense. You need to put Pretrib to the side and analyze Posttrib objectively. Let Posttribbers speak for themselves, instead of you speaking on their behalf.

Where Prettribbers err is that they equate the wrath of God with some supposed future 7-year trib after the "rapture." But Scripture doesn't teach that. While God's wrath is on the wicked. His final wrath destroys all the wicked. That is what we escape when He comes at His one and only future final coming.

What’s illogical about your view is that you can peg down on knowing the day or the hour of our Lord’s return approximately. But Jesus says we will not know the day or the hour of his return.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

sovereigngrace

Well-Known Member
Dec 9, 2019
8,983
3,447
USA
Visit site
✟200,167.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
When Does the Day of the Lord or the Day of Wrath Begin?

We know that the Day of the Lord = the Day of Wrath.

Zephaniah 1:14-15

"The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly. That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,"​

The Day of the Lord does not come at the sixth seal because we know that Joel talks about the sun, the blood moon are signs that come BEFORE the Day of the Lord.

Joel 2:31

"The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come."
Why is this important? Because the sixth seal is marked by the sun going dark, and the moon turning to blood.

Revelation 6:12

"And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;"​

Yet, the Day of the Lord is marked with signs BEFORE of the sun going dark, and the moon turning to blood.

Joel 2:31

The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.​

Conclusion:

This means that those who cry out at the sixth seal that the "Great Day of His Wrath has come" are merely talking about it in a future sense (and how it is now about to arrive). So the Wrath begins at the breaking of the 1st Trumpet, when God pours out the major judgments that effect the world in a huge way.

It is not just that Prettribbers wrongly equate the wrath of God with some supposed future 7-year trib after the "rapture," they also ignore the fact that Revelation is symbolic and NOT chronological. the 6th seal is the end of the world, it is one of several parallels (or similar camera views) describing the intra-Advent period.

Joel 2:1-3 says, “for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand; A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations. A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them.”

This fiery day of complete destruction is an impending day (“it is nigh at hand”) that will evidently destroy this planet. The appearance of Christ will leaven nothing of corruption standing. Joel 2:4-5 continues, “The appearance of them is as the appearance of horses; and as horsemen, so shall they run. Like the noise of chariots on the tops of mountains shall they leap, like the noise of a flame of fire that devoureth the stubble.”

Joel 2:10-11: “The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining: And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?

This text finishes with a question – a rhetorical question. That means the answer is plain and obvious. No one will survive this glorious climatic event.

His face manifests the shikinah of God. Whilst the Premillennialist accepts that the earth flees from His glory at the end of Satan’s little season it negates that reality at His second coming. Is His glory any different? Why didn't the heavens and the earth flee from His face then? After all, the brightness of His coming should hardly be diminished at any time. Scripture would see to locate the fulfilment of Revelation 20:11 at the second coming of the Lord Jesus.

The 6th seal is climactic. You have to ignore the detail described in order to force your meaning. This is the end. This correlates with multiple Scriptures that show a climactic return of Christ. This also demolishes the chronological approach and with it Premil. The sixth seal totally demolishers the Premillennial scheme. It shows the conflagration and the destruction of all the wicked. This relays the Amil position.

The sixth seal totally demolishers the Premillennial scheme. It shows the conflagration and the destruction of all the wicked. This relays the Amil position. Let us look at the text in Revelation 6:12-17, says, “And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; and the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?”

This is the time of God's final wrath upon the earth. The wicked are so afraid of their impending doom that they want the mountains and rocks to fall on them. Think about this: being crushed by mountains and rocks appeals more to them than facing God's wrath. No wicked will survive this.

Once again, this text finishes with a rhetorical question. The obvious answer (to those who do not have their own theological agenda) is that no one will survive this climatic event.

Revelation 6:12-17 depicts the conflagration that accompanies the return of Christ. It sees the regeneration of this earth and the destruction of all the wicked. This agrees with multiple Scripture.

Creation

· The sun became black
· The moon became as blood
· The stars of heaven fell unto the earth,
· The heaven departs like a scroll
· Every mountain and island are moved out of their places

This is talking about the topography of the physical earth and starry host being totally destroyed.

Scripture shows Jesus one and only coming to be totally climactic. When Jesus comes that is it - caught up or caught on, saved or lost, eternal bliss or eternal torment. It is the end. No one survives (see above).
 
Upvote 0

sovereigngrace

Well-Known Member
Dec 9, 2019
8,983
3,447
USA
Visit site
✟200,167.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
What’s illogical about your view is that you can peg down on knowing the day or the hour of our Lord’s return approximately. But Jesus says we will not know the day or the hour of his return.

Not so. That is Postrib Premil not Amil.
 
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,433
7,859
...
✟1,187,903.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Not so. That is Postrib Premil not Amil.

Please just tell me what you believe in simple terms on the timing of the “Caught up together” event.

There is....

1. Pre-Trib
2. Mid-Trib
3. Pre-Wrath
4. Post-Trib
5. After the Millennium
6. No Rapture
7. Preterism
8. Partial Preterism.
 
Upvote 0

sovereigngrace

Well-Known Member
Dec 9, 2019
8,983
3,447
USA
Visit site
✟200,167.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Please just tell me what you believe in simple terms on the timing of the “Caught up together” event.

There is....

1. Pre-Trib
2. Mid-Trib
3. Pre-Wrath
4. Post-Trib
5. After the Millennium
6. No Rapture
7. Preterism
8. Partial Preterism.

I am Postrib and Amil/Postmil (when Jesus comes). This is after the millennium/Satan's little season and tribulation.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,433
7,859
...
✟1,187,903.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
It is not just that Prettribbers wrongly equate the wrath of God with some supposed future 7-year trib after the "rapture," they also ignore the fact that Revelation is symbolic and NOT chronological. the 6th seal is the end of the world, it is one of several parallels (or similar camera views) describing the intra-Advent period.

Joel 2:1-3 says, “for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand; A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations. A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them.”

This fiery day of complete destruction is an impending day (“it is nigh at hand”) that will evidently destroy this planet. The appearance of Christ will leaven nothing of corruption standing. Joel 2:4-5 continues, “The appearance of them is as the appearance of horses; and as horsemen, so shall they run. Like the noise of chariots on the tops of mountains shall they leap, like the noise of a flame of fire that devoureth the stubble.”

Joel 2:10-11: “The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining: And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?

This text finishes with a question – a rhetorical question. That means the answer is plain and obvious. No one will survive this glorious climatic event.

His face manifests the shikinah of God. Whilst the Premillennialist accepts that the earth flees from His glory at the end of Satan’s little season it negates that reality at His second coming. Is His glory any different? Why didn't the heavens and the earth flee from His face then? After all, the brightness of His coming should hardly be diminished at any time. Scripture would see to locate the fulfilment of Revelation 20:11 at the second coming of the Lord Jesus.

The 6th seal is climactic. You have to ignore the detail described in order to force your meaning. This is the end. This correlates with multiple Scriptures that show a climactic return of Christ. This also demolishes the chronological approach and with it Premil. The sixth seal totally demolishers the Premillennial scheme. It shows the conflagration and the destruction of all the wicked. This relays the Amil position.

The sixth seal totally demolishers the Premillennial scheme. It shows the conflagration and the destruction of all the wicked. This relays the Amil position. Let us look at the text in Revelation 6:12-17, says, “And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; and the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?”

This is the time of God's final wrath upon the earth. The wicked are so afraid of their impending doom that they want the mountains and rocks to fall on them. Think about this: being crushed by mountains and rocks appeals more to them than facing God's wrath. No wicked will survive this.

Once again, this text finishes with a rhetorical question. The obvious answer (to those who do not have their own theological agenda) is that no one will survive this climatic event.

Revelation 6:12-17 depicts the conflagration that accompanies the return of Christ. It sees the regeneration of this earth and the destruction of all the wicked. This agrees with multiple Scripture.

Creation

· The sun became black
· The moon became as blood
· The stars of heaven fell unto the earth,
· The heaven departs like a scroll
· Every mountain and island are moved out of their places

This is talking about the topography of the physical earth and starry host being totally destroyed.

Scripture shows Jesus one and only coming to be totally climactic. When Jesus comes that is it - caught up or caught on, saved or lost, eternal bliss or eternal torment. It is the end. No one survives (see above).

full


24 "Seventy weeks [70 weeks] are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks [7 weeks], and threescore and two weeks [62 weeks]: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks [62 weeks] shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself [The Messiah is Jesus who is the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the entire world]: and the people of the prince [the people of the prince of the power of the air, i.e. the devil - see: Ephesians 2:2] that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary [i.e. the Romans destroyed the Jewish temple in 70AD]; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he [The "he" is the "prince" of the people mentioned in verse 26] shall confirm the covenant with many for one week [make a treaty with the Jews and others in the final 7 years]: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease [this prince will stop the Jewish sacrifices in the temple], and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."
(Daniel 9:24-27).

After 7 weeks (49 days /49 years) = Temple Rebuilt (verse 25).

+ (Plus)

After 62 weeks = (a) Christ dying for our sins (b) 70AD Temple destruction.
(Verse 26).

(Gap of time or Age of Grace: The War (verse 26), or Spiritual Time of Battle for the Cause of Christ in Spreading the Gospel)

+ (Plus)

The last 1 week (7 days/7 years) = Tribulation period (verse 27).

7 + 62 + 1 = 70 Weeks.
This passage sets the backdrop or framework for Daniels 70 Week Prophecy (verse 24).


Side Note 1:

If you were to carefully look at the text, it states that there are things that happen in the gap like a.... "war" until the end. Also, Christ dies, and the temple is destroyed also within the gap of time that is not accounted for within the 70 weeks, as well. The text is actually saying that things are happening within the gap of the 69th week, and the 70th week.

Side Note 2:

The texts in brackets in blue and red in the Daniel 9 passage is my personal commentary on the text.
 
Upvote 0