Do Whatever They Tell You...

Gary K said:

Hmmmm.... Jesus said that those who do not believe Moses can't believe in Him.

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No, he told Jews that if they didn't accept Moses then they wouldn't believe, even if someone were to rise from the dead. He did not say "Gentiles first have to accept Moses, then they will be able to believe in me". I knew about Jesus long before I had heard of Moses.

There is a big difference between believing in Moses and obeying the law that he gave.
Moses was amazing, a great example of faith in God and we can all learn a lot by his life and example.
But he wasn't God, and the law that he received from God was for the Hebrew people whom God had rescued from Egypt.
Hundreds of years later, we were rescued from sin and death by Jesus, who was/is God and who sealed God's NEW Covenant with his blood.

Jesus is greater than Moses.

HARK! said:

He told his disciples.

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He did not tell Gentiles to obey Moses - that would have contradicted everything else that he had taught.
Jesus gives eternal life, not Moses.
Jesus is the only way to the Father, John 14:6, not Moses.
Jesus is the only name by which we are saved, Acts of the Apostles 4:12, not Moses.
Jesus taught that whoever accepts his words is like a house that is built on rock, Matthew 7:24-27.
Jesus told his disciples that they were clean because of the word that he had given them, John 15:3.

He never said, "now that I have shown you how to keep the law, go and do it", or "teach people to believe everything that Moses taught them", or "the law of Moses will make you clean and gives eternal life."

LoveGodsWord said:

Who is God's Word for *1 Corinthians 10:11; Matthew 4:4; 2 Timothy 3:16?

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Everyone.

Strong in Him said:

No, he told the Jews - not Gentiles.
And certainly not those who would come to hear about him many centuries later, in other countries that did not have Moses' seat.

Obey Moses if you wish, but Jesus is greater and has fulfilled the law given by Moses.
Moses, a man, was an intermediary between God and the Hebrews at Sinai and told them of the covenant that God was making with them.
Jesus, God, is the mediator of the NEW Covenant that God made, and sealed with his Son's blood.

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In the OT God taught us a lot about Israelites/Jews and their relationship to Gentiles/strangers. There was to be only one law and it applied equally to Israelite/Jew and the Gentile/strangers in the land.

Exodus 12:48 And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.
49 One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

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Leviticus 19:33 ¶And if a stranger sojourn with thee in your land, ye shall not vex him.
34 But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God.

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Leviticus 24:22 Ye shall have one manner of law, as well for the stranger, as for one of your own country: for I am the Lord your God.

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That's enough to show the principle I'm demonstrating, but there are a lot more texts backing these up.

How can you say the OT laws have nothing to do with Gentiles? That is simply untrue for the Bible teaches us that the Israelites/Jews were to treat the strangers/Gentiles as born into Israel when they wanted to join themselves to the Jewish religion which looked forward to Jesus and taught His principles of life. So Gentiles have always been subject to the laws of God whether they knew it or not.

Now it's plain that the Jews had walked away from this truth for they hated the Gentiles. But they also hated God when Jesus came here and showed us who God is. Just because the Jews had lost sight of God's laws didn't mean they weren't held accountable for that. And just because they didn't treat the Gentiles as one born among them doesn't mean that God's laws don't apply to the Gentiles also. The scriptures make that abundantly clear.

Studyman said:

This is simply not Biblical Truth. That is, if the Word's of the Christ of the Bible are to be trusted.

Matt. 15:3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, 8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. 9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. (Not God who gave the Law in Leviticus)

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The question was:

Could it be that these words that these hypocrites were speaking from the Moses Seat, are the same words that Yahshua spent his entire ministry preaching?

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My answer was "no" and my point was that the Pharisees taught the law. Maybe some of their oral tradition had crept in as well, maybe they had different interpretations of the OT law - but they taught it.
Jesus didn't deny the law, rubbish it or say that it didn't apply - he said that he came to fulfil it.
Then he taught that he was laying down his own life as a sacrifice for sins, Mark 10:45, John 10:11, Matthew 26:28. He taught that no one could come to the Father unless they came through him, John 14:6. He taught that he could, and would, give eternal life to anyone who believed in him. And he taught that his words, which were what the Father gave him to say, made his disciples clean.

He did not say "I am giving you the example of how to obey the OT law, and if you keep that law perfectly, you will be saved."
Thus, the words that the Pharisees spoke from Moses' seat and the words that Jesus spoke, were not the same.

It sounds as though "sitting on Moses' seat" meant teaching the word that Moses gave and with the authority that Moses had.
I follow the One who has all authority in heaven and on earth, Matthew 28:19, John 13:3, who is seated at the right hand of the Father, Mark 16:19, and who speaks words of eternal life, John 6:68.

HARK! said:

Well that tells us what sin is not; but can you tell us what sin is?

What it is, is what defines it.

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Maybe you didn't understand...

I did define sin as being anything that is not of faith...

I will expand on that.

Man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God. Matt 4:4

Faith comes from hearing the Word of Christ. Rom 10:7

Therefore sin is any thought or action not aligning with what God has spoken.

As I said - anything not of faith is sin.

Gary K said:

In the OT God taught us a lot about Israelites/Jews and their relationship to Gentiles/strangers. There was to be only one law and it applied equally to Israelite/Jew and the Gentile/strangers in the land.

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In the land - quite.
I am not, and never have been, in the land. I am not one of those who was rescued from Egypt, nor am/have I been someone wanting to convert to Judaism to become one of God's people.
I am a child of God, made so by Jesus and affirmed by the Spirit.

Gary K said:

How can you say the OT laws have nothing to do with Gentiles?

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Because we don't live in OT times.
We are not people who are trying to convert to the Jewish faith in order to become one of God's people and live under his covenant.
We are God's people because we have faith in, accept and follow his Son, who rescued us from slavery to sin and who brought in God's NEW Covenant.

Gary K said:

That is simply untrue for the Bible teaches us that the Israelites/Jews were to treat the strangers/Gentiles as born into Israel when they wanted to join themselves to the Jewish religion which looked forward to Jesus and taught His principles of life. So Gentiles have always been subject to the laws of God whether they knew it or not.

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But I don't want to join myself to the Jewish religion.
I have Jesus, who taught and healed both Jews and Gentiles, and who has reconciled us to God through his death on the cross.

Gary K said:

Now it's plain that the Jews had walked away from this truth for they hated the Gentiles. But they also hated God when Jesus came here and showed us who God is. Just because the Jews had lost sight of God's laws didn't mean they weren't held accountable for that. And just because they didn't treat the Gentiles as one born among them doesn't mean that God's laws don't apply to the Gentiles also. The scriptures make that abundantly clear.

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The Scriptures make it abundantly clear that the Jews were incapable of keeping the laws that God gave them, and broke the covenant again and again.
The Scriptures make it clear that God was going to make a NEW Covenant.
The Scriptures make it clear that the Jews were waiting for a Messiah - someone who would defeat their enemies and bring in the Kingdom of God. The NT says that Jesus was that Messiah, that he taught about the Kingdom of God and sealed the NEW covenant with his blood, Matthew 26:28.

The Scriptures do not say, "come to Jesus, be forgiven, cleansed, receive eternal life and become a new creation and child of God - THEN, go back to the OT and keep all the food and hygiene laws that God gave through Moses." Just as God never said to the Jews, "go to the temple to keep the feasts and worship me, but then go back to the tabernacle that I told Moses to build." Or, "you will escape judgement for your sins if you go back into the ark that Noah built".
The ark and the tabernacle were given for a time only - then God moved in new ways and did new things. Ditto the law.
Jesus, the Messiah, came to fulfil the law.

Strong in Him said:

Everyone.

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Exactly! That was the point of those scriptures. God's Word is for everyone, not just for the Jews. Thank you for an honest answer.

LoveGodsWord said:

Exactly! That was the point of those scriptures. God's Word is for everyone, not just for the Jews. Thank you for an honest answer.

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God's word; yes.
God's law as given to the folk at Sinai; no.
Jesus came to offer his life as a sacrifice to reconcile us to God, because people were incapable of keeping God's law, and it could not save them.

Jesus, God himself, taught us that his words gave eternal life, made us clean and that the person who kept them was like someone who built their house on a rock.
The Jewish leaders did not keep Jesus' words, they rejected him as the Messiah.

Carl Emerson said:

Maybe you didn't understand...

I did define sin as being anything that is not of faith...

I will expand on that.

Man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God. Matt 4:4

Faith comes from hearing the Word of Christ. Rom 10:7

Therefore sin is any thought or action not aligning with what God has spoken.

As I said - anything not of faith is sin.

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Jas_4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
1Jn_3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Strong in Him said:

No, he told Jews that if they didn't accept Moses then they wouldn't believe, even if someone were to rise from the dead. He did not say "Gentiles first have to accept Moses, then they will be able to believe in me". I knew about Jesus long before I had heard of Moses.

There is a big difference between believing in Moses and obeying the law that he gave.
Moses was amazing, a great example of faith in God and we can all learn a lot by his life and example.
But he wasn't God, and the law that he received from God was for the Hebrew people whom God had rescued from Egypt.
Hundreds of years later, we were rescued from sin and death by Jesus, who was/is God and who sealed God's NEW Covenant with his blood.

Jesus is greater than Moses.

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How do you get that idea that the Law of God is only for Jews? Paul disputes that quite soundly.

Galatians 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

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So does John.

Revelation 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

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Show me scriptural evidence of what you say. I've already shown you scriptural evidence of just the opposite of what you are saying. You don't get away with giving personal opinion rather than evidence from scripture. The Gentiles/strangers were governed by exactly the same laws that the Israelites/Jews were. There was no difference. There was one law for both Israelite and the stranger. They were to be treated as one born into Israel. Which means that the believing Gentile was seen, and declared by God to be, no different than an Israelite.

The Israelites/Jews are/were also rescued from sin and death by faith in Jesus. There is none other name under heaven, given among men, whereby we may be saved. Those who looked forward to Christ and saw Him in the sacrificial lamb looked forward to Christ by faith. Remember Jesus is "the lamb of God" who taketh away the sin of the world.

What, exactly do you see as the New Covenant?

As to Jesus vs Moses nobody who accepts Christ as their Savior disputes that God isn't greater than a human. That does not mean that Jesus' giving His laws to Moses is unimportant to anyone.

Gary K said:

How do you get that idea that the Law of God is only for Jews? Paul disputes that quite soundly.

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How do you get the idea that we can believe in Jesus, confess him as Saviour and Lord, be born again and become children of God - and then have to go back to the OT to re read laws that were given to the Hebrews at Sinai?
Jesus did not say "if you love me, keep all these laws". He did not say that these laws save, nor that they give life.

Strong in Him said:

The question was:

My answer was "no" and my point was that the Pharisees taught the law. Maybe some of their oral tradition had crept in as well, maybe they had different interpretations of the OT law - but they taught it.

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I just posted a few Scriptures of the Word's of the Lord's Christ Himself which completely contradicts your statement. I didn't even include the volumes of Scriptures from the Law and Prophets in which the Spirit of this same Christ prophesied, Not that they would teach God's Law, but that they wouldn't, just as Jesus declared "EVERY TIME" HE spoke of them.


Jer. 23:16 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the LORD.

But you preach they DID Teach God's Law.

Jer. 23:21 I have not sent these prophets, yet they ran: I have not spoken to them, yet they prophesied.

22 But if they had stood in my counsel, and had caused my people to hear my words, then they should have turned them from their evil way, and from the evil of their doings.

But you preach they DID Cause People to hear God's Word's.

Jer. 5:30 A wonderful and horrible thing is committed in the land; 31 The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means; and my people love to have it so: and what will ye do in the end thereof?

Mal. 2:7 For the priest's lips should keep knowledge, and they should seek the law at his mouth: for he is the messenger of the LORD of hosts.

8 But ye are departed out of the way; ye have caused many to stumble at the law; ye have corrupted the covenant of Levi, saith the LORD of hosts.

But you preach this is not true, that the Levite Priest were teaching God's Law.

I could go on and on showing you the Words of God which clearly teach us that the Scribes and Pharisees "DID NOT" Teach God's Law.

Perhaps you might consider the possibility that when religious philosophies of men contradict The Inspired Word's of Christ, it is the Christ who is always True.

Jesus didn't deny the law, rubbish it or say that it didn't apply - he said that he came to fulfil it.
Then he taught that he was laying down his own life as a sacrifice for sins, Mark 10:45, John 10:11, Matthew 26:28. He taught that no one could come to the Father unless they came through him, John 14:6. He taught that he could, and would, give eternal life to anyone who believed in him. And he taught that his words, which were what the Father gave him to say, made his disciples clean.

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Again, I just posted the Christ's own Words in which HE said to obey God's Commandments. This theme runs through the entire Bible from Genesis to Revelation.

Rev. 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

There are many religious people who will seek others ways to gain eternal life, the Path is Broad and there are "Many" who choose this popular path.

Jesus spoke of this in a warning for us.

Matt. 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. (Lawlessness)

So once again, transgression of God's Law is a Big Deal to Jesus, even if it isn't to religious men. Nothing new about that.

He did not say "I am giving you the example of how to obey the OT law, and if you keep that law perfectly, you will be saved."

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john 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

1 Jn. 2: 4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

Again, Jesus is the ONLY Example to emulate, and HE Did give us the Perfect Example of walking in God's Law. And we ARE told to Walk even as HE Walked.

At least according to the Holy Scriptures, if a man believe in such things.

Eph. 2 9 Not of (mans) works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

What "good works" did God before ordain that HIS Children should walk in? Did Jesus Walk in them?

Your preaching that Jesus didn't honor and Teach God's Law is another Doctrine that Contradicts the Christ's own Words.

Jn. 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

Thus, the words that the Pharisees spoke from Moses' seat and the words that Jesus spoke, were not the same.

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So then, in your religious philosophy Jesus came to promote another voice, and not the Word's of HIS Father? A Voice that the Prophets of Old, who were said to be inspired by the Spirit of this same Christ, knew nothing about? Can you provide any Scriptural evidence of this?

It sounds as though "sitting on Moses' seat" meant teaching the word that Moses gave and with the authority that Moses had.

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Yes, and Jesus said that whatever Moses said, the people, and the Disciples also, were to observe and do.

And of course HE did.

John 5:45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.

46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.

47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

Of course these are empty Word's to a person who has been convinced the Pharisees Believed Moses, and were teaching the Laws God gave through him.

But consider for a moment that Jesus speaks the truth, and the Mainstream Preachers of HIS Time were NOT Teaching God's Laws given through Moses. That would explain why Jesus is accusing them of not believing him wouldn't it.

I follow the One who has all authority in heaven and on earth, Matthew 28:19, John 13:3, who is seated at the right hand of the Father, Mark 16:19, and who speaks words of eternal life, John 6:68.

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Well that would depend on your definition of "follow". If a man is preaching to the world, things which are in direct contradiction of the Word's of the Christ Himself. Would HE SAY that was Following HIM?

Strong in Him said:

How do you get the idea that we can believe in Jesus, confess him as Saviour and Lord, be born again and become children of God - and then have to go back to the OT to re read laws that were given to the Hebrews at Sinai?
Jesus did not say "if you love me, keep all these laws". He did not say that these laws save, nor that they give life.

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Joh_14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

mmksparbud said:

Joh_14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

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Yes, Jesus' commandments. Not the OT food and hygiene laws

Strong in Him said:

Yes, Jesus' commandments. Not the OT food and hygiene laws

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LOL!! Jesus is the one that wrote them on those stone tablets!! He knows them very well.

mmksparbud said:

Jas_4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
1Jn_3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

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1 Jn 3:
23This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us. 24The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

Jn 13.34
34“A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. 35“By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”

Carl Emerson said:

1 Jn 3:
23This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us. 24The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

Jn 13.34
34“A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. 35“By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”

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Again, Jesus wrote the 10 with His own finger! On stone. He paraphrased what was said in Deuteronomy. The first 4 are our duty to God, the last 6 is our duty to man. That is love for God and love for man! That is what the commandments are---love.

mmksparbud said:

LOL!! Jesus is the one that wrote them on those stone tablets!! He knows them very well.

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But he didn't tell his disciples to carry on keeping them, nor did he teach gentiles to start.