How can We Know if We Know Him?

safswan · Dec 12, 2020

Guojing said:
Yep so OSAS does not just rely on 1 Cor 3

No one said it did. But for sure it is misleading to use it to support that doctrine.

Guojing · Dec 12, 2020

safswan said:
No one said it did. But for sure it is misleading to use it to support that doctrine.

I used that to say that "works are for rewards".

Our salvation is a settled issue without any works, based on other scriptures found in Romans to Philemon.

Guojing · Dec 12, 2020

safswan said:
The pronouncements of Acts 15:11 and Acts 15:19 in no way contradict each other:

James clearly supports him and so circumcision and the total adherence to the law was denied.

Let's interpret v11 and v19 literally and you tell me how does one conclude they mean the same thing

11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

A literal reading will tell you that Peter is actually saying that he wants the Jews (we), from then on, to be saved, as a Gentile (they).

James did his final announcement that

19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:

James is saying the Gentiles do not have to follow the Law of Moses.

Did he say anything about the Jews, whether they do not have to follow the Law of Moses too? The clear answer is no.

Notice James changed what Peter intended and spoke clearly in vs 11? Here there is no statement about Jews.

If you cannot see the literal meaning in Acts 15, we have, in Acts 21:20 and 25, it clarified what was in James and the elders' minds in Acts 15

20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:

25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

When you combine the literal understanding of Acts 15 and Acts 21 together, it is clear that James proclaimed something different from what Peter intended.

Guojing · Dec 12, 2020

safswan said:
James clearly supports him and so circumcision and the total adherence to the law was denied.

And I noted that you did not address my point on

Once you understood that, the idea that Peter was afraid of the "Men from James" in the second half of Galatians 2 will start to make sense.

If what Peter stated in Acts 15:11 was the one that James agreed on, there would have been no reason for him to be afraid of them.

Gary K · Dec 14, 2020

Guojing said:
1 Corinthians 3:10-15 has the scripture reference for work as rewards.

I've taken a few days away from here for a couple of reasons. 1. I've had to nurse my sick dog so I've been running on very little sleep. 2. Your attitude of it's legalism to obey God because your heart is full of gratitude and love for God, but it's perfectly fine to obey God just for a reward I find to be very strange. It's something I can't even imagine doing.

I obey God because my heart is full of gratitude and love for Him because of everything He has done for me. He has done so much that I can never repay the debt of gratitude that I owe Him. He's saved my life multiple times. Literally. He has taught me so much about human nature, the power of sin, His own power to overcome sin, His own power to change lives and hearts, His ability to heal us in every way possible, and His willingness to share all of that with us, without money and without price, as unworthy as we are. To even think of working for God as some kind of mercenary/hireling is reprehensible to me. I couldn't work for wages for someone who has done all that God has done for me. To take rewards for any small thing I might be able to do for God is just unthinkable.

Jesus says, if ye love me keep my commandments. He doesn't say, if you want rewards obey me.

Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

John 4:10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.
11 The woman saith unto him, Sir, thou hast nothing to draw with, and the well is deep: from whence then hast thou that living water?
12 Art thou greater than our father Jacob, which gave us the well, and drank thereof himself, and his children, and his cattle?
13 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:
14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

John 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
48 I am that bread of life.
49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jesus freely gives all of this to anyone who will accept it. And you will only work for God for a reward? I truly don't get it. It's like you have never met Him. That is a fearsome place to be for Jesus says He will tell those people on judgement day, Depart from me, I never knew you. I wouldn't want you to experience that. Get to know Jesus for He said, "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent." John 17:3

Salvation is about personally knowing both the Father and the Son for when we really know both of them we will love them with a love that cannot make mercenaries out of us. We will never work for God for rewards when we know the Father and the Son personally.

Guojing · Dec 14, 2020

Gary K said:
I've taken a few days away from here for a couple of reasons. 1. I've had to nurse my sick dog so I've been running on very little sleep. 2. Your attitude of it's legalism to obey God because your heart is full of gratitude and love for God, but it's perfectly fine to obey God just for a reward I find to be very strange. It's something I can't even imagine doing.

I obey God because my heart is full of gratitude and love for Him because of everything He has done for me. He has done so much that I can never repay the debt of gratitude that I owe Him. He's saved my life multiple times. Literally. He has taught me so much about human nature, the power of sin, His own power to overcome sin, His own power to change lives and hearts, His ability to heal us in every way possible, and His willingness to share all of that with us, without money and without price, as unworthy as we are. To even think of working for God as some kind of mercenary/hireling is reprehensible to me. I couldn't work for wages for someone who has done all that God has done for me. To take rewards for any small thing I might be able to do for God is just unthinkable.

Jesus says, if ye love me keep my commandments. He doesn't say, if you want rewards obey me.

Jesus freely gives all of this to anyone who will accept it. And you will only work for God for a reward? I truly don't get it. It's like you have never met Him. That is a fearsome place to be for Jesus says He will tell those people on judgement day, Depart from me, I never knew you. I wouldn't want you to experience that. Get to know Jesus for He said, "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent." John 17:3

Salvation is about personally knowing both the Father and the Son for when we really know both of them we will love them with a love that cannot make mercenaries out of us. We will never work for God for rewards when we know the Father and the Son personally.

do you agree that salvation is not given as a reward for works, in this dispensation?

ViaCrucis · Dec 14, 2020

How can we know if we know Him?

Word and Sacrament.

-CryptoLutheran

safswan · Dec 18, 2020

Guojing said:
I used that to say that "works are for rewards".

And it is clear from the context of the passage that the works are not works which pertain to righteousness or righteous acts but refer to the work done by Paul,Peter and others in ministering for the Lord in building the Lord's house.

Guojing said:
Our salvation is a settled issue without any works, based on other scriptures found in Romans to Philemon.

This is true if we are in the position of the thief on the cross but many of us are not in that position but are more like the woman caught in adultery.We are to go and sin no more.Just as the apostle Paul teaches when he asks:

Romans 6:
1What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.......
15What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Guojing · Dec 18, 2020

safswan said:
And it is clear from the context of the passage that the works are not works which pertain to righteousness or righteous acts but refer to the work done by Paul,Peter and others in ministering for the Lord in building the Lord's house.

This is true if we are in the position of the thief on the cross but many of us are not in that position but are more like the woman caught in adultery.We are to go and sin no more.Just as the apostle Paul teaches when he asks:

Romans 6:
1What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.......
15What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Why don’t you quote 1 Corinthians 3:10-15 if you claim the passage is clear, instead of another passage?

In our lives here, we are also building on the foundation laid by Paul as our apostle. Paul made it clear when he advise us to be careful how we build.

safswan · Dec 18, 2020

Guojing said:
Let's interpret v11 and v19 literally and you tell me how does one conclude they mean the same thing

safswan · Dec 18, 2020

Guojing said:
Let's interpret v11 and v19 literally and you tell me how does one conclude they mean the same thing

You seem to have a penchant for misrepresenting what I have said.Never said they mean the same thing but that they do not contradict each other.The conclusion is that,since there was no further disagreement in the conversation and that,since they came to a common position then both statements compliment each other.Your continued misunderstanding and your ignoring of the facts of what happened will lead to your failure to see the truth where this passage is concerned.

Guojing said:
11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

A literal reading will tell you that Peter is actually saying that he wants the Jews (we), from then on, to be saved, as a Gentile (they).

And the context will tell how it is that this saving is to be accomplished. You continue to ignore the context to your detriment.Remember what was the cause for the contention:

Acts 15:
5But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

Hence both Jew and Gentile will be saved without circumcision and total adherence to the law.

Guojing said:
James did his final announcement that

19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:

James is saying the Gentiles do not have to follow the Law of Moses.

Did he say anything about the Jews, whether they do not have to follow the Law of Moses too? The clear answer is no.

Notice James changed what Peter intended and spoke clearly in vs 11? Here there is no statement about Jews.

If you cannot see the literal meaning in Acts 15, we have, in Acts 21:20 and 25, it clarified what was in James and the elders' minds in Acts 15

20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:

25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

James in his pronouncement did not contradict the teaching of the apostle Peter.He rather elaborated on what was expected of the new converts.He also agreed that the Gentiles did not have to be circumcised but mentioned aspects of the law which they need to observe.This,you and many others ignore and continue the false teaching that Gentiles were completely exempted from all of God's law.Hence James could not make a statement exempting Jews from keeping God's law as neither were the Gentiles.

Guojing said:
When you combine the literal understanding of Acts 15 and Acts 21 together, it is clear that James proclaimed something different from what Peter intended.

I can only repeat what was said before with the hope you may be granted the understanding of the same.The things the Gentiles were instructed about came from the law.Hence neither Jew nor Gentile is totally exempt from keeping God's law.Both James and Paul were here applying the I Corinthians 9 principle so that Paul may get the opportunity to preach to those in Jerusalem.As I also said:

"There was in fact a transition but not one of two different gospels,it was that of the understanding of the people of God as to the requirements of salvation.Many still were not understanding the changes Jesus' death brought as was predicted by the prophets and expounded by Paul in Hebrews 7-10."

Guojing said:
When you combine the literal understanding of Acts 15 and Acts 21 together, it is clear that James proclaimed something different from what Peter intended.

The evidence in the passages does not support your conclusion.Rather the pronouncements of James and Peter compliment one another and gives a bigger picture than either one,of what was expected of the new converts.

safswan · Dec 18, 2020

Guojing said:
And I noted that you did not address my point on

You don't seem to read carefully and have not addressed many of the points I have made.Here is what was said about your point:

"4)It was a sect of the Pharisees which was pushing the circumcision issue and not the apostles and elders of the Jerusalem church.(Acts 15:5))

These most likely were the ones who came down from James of whom Peter was afraid. The actions of Peter cannot negate what he believed or agreed to,but simply show his human frailty in carrying out what was right."

Similar to how under pressure he denied the Lord.

safswan · Dec 18, 2020

Guojing said:
Why don’t you quote 1 Corinthians 3:10-15 if you claim the passage is clear, instead of another passage?

In our lives here, we are also building on the foundation laid by Paul as our apostle. Paul made it clear when he advise us to be careful how we build.

I used no other passage to comment on I Corinthians 3.It is self explanatory if we take the passage for what it is and not add to it.Paul's warning is to those who would be ministers/builders after he and Apollos.

The scripture used was to put in context your statement that:
"Our salvation is a settled issue without any works, based on other scriptures found in Romans to Philemon."

Guojing · Dec 18, 2020

safswan said:
You seem to have a penchant for misrepresenting what I have said.Never said they mean the same thing but that they do not contradict each other.The conclusion is that,since there was no further disagreement in the conversation and that,since they came to a common position then both statements compliment each other.Your continued misunderstanding and your ignoring of the facts of what happened will lead to your failure to see the truth where this passage is concerned.

And the context will tell how it is that this saving is to be accomplished. You continue to ignore the context to your detriment.Remember what was the cause for the contention:

Acts 15:
5But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

Hence both Jew and Gentile will be saved without circumcision and total adherence to the law.

James in his pronouncement did not contradict the teaching of the apostle Peter.He rather elaborated on what was expected of the new converts.He also agreed that the Gentiles did not have to be circumcised but mentioned aspects of the law which they need to observe.This,you and many others ignore and continue the false teaching that Gentiles were completely exempted from all of God's law.Hence James could not make a statement exempting Jews from keeping God's law as neither were the Gentiles.

I can only repeat what was said before with the hope you may be granted the understanding of the same.The things the Gentiles were instructed about came from the law.Hence neither Jew nor Gentile is totally exempt from keeping God's law.Both James and Paul were here applying the I Corinthians 9 principle so that Paul may get the opportunity to preach to those in Jerusalem.As I also said:

"There was in fact a transition but not one of two different gospels,it was that of the understanding of the people of God as to the requirements of salvation.Many still were not understanding the changes Jesus' death brought as was predicted by the prophets and expounded by Paul in Hebrews 7-10."

The evidence in the passages does not support your conclusion.Rather the pronouncements of James and Peter compliment one another and gives a bigger picture than either one,of what was expected of the new converts.

But you do agree that in acts 15:19, James did not excuse Jews who believe in Christ from the law right?

Are you trying to make an argument from silence, that James agreed with Peter, so he didn’t have to say it out?

Guojing · Dec 18, 2020

safswan said:
I used no other passage to comment on I Corinthians 3.It is self explanatory if we take the passage for what it is and not add to it.Paul's warning is to those who would be ministers/builders after he and Apollos.

The scripture used was to put in context your statement that:
"Our salvation is a settled issue without any works, based on other scriptures found in Romans to Philemon."

Alright so you do agree that Paul is talking about us in that passage. That was what I was trying to establish.

safswan · Dec 18, 2020

ONE GOSPEL

Peter preaches salvation by grace through faith:
Act 15:
7And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
8And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
9And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
10Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
11But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

Paul preached,the kingdom of God,repentance and faith towards the Lord as part of the gospel of God's grace:

Acts 20:
16For Paul had determined to sail by Ephesus, because he would not spend the time in Asia: for he hasted, if it were possible for him, to be at Jerusalem the day of Pentecost.
17And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church.
18And when they were come to him, he said unto them, Ye know, from the first day that I came into Asia, after what manner I have been with you at all seasons,
19Serving the Lord with all humility of mind, and with many tears, and temptations, which befell me by the lying in wait of the Jews:
20And how I kept back nothing that was profitable unto you, but have shewed you, and have taught you publickly, and from house to house,
21Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.
22And now, behold, I go bound in the spirit unto Jerusalem, not knowing the things that shall befall me there:
23Save that the Holy Ghost witnesseth in every city, saying that bonds and afflictions abide me.
24But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.
25And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more.

Paul preached repentance to avoid the coming judgement:

Acts 17:
30And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Paul preached repentance and doing of works meet for repentance:

Acst 26:
19Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:
20But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.
21For these causes the Jews caught me in the temple, and went about to kill me.

Paul also preached the message of the kingdom of God. (See:Acts28:23,31;14:22;19:8)

Guojing · Dec 19, 2020

safswan said:
ONE GOSPEL

Peter preaches salvation by grace through faith:
Act 15:
7And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
8And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
9And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
10Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
11But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

Paul preached,the kingdom of God,repentance and faith towards the Lord as part of the gospel of God's grace:

Acts 20:
16For Paul had determined to sail by Ephesus, because he would not spend the time in Asia: for he hasted, if it were possible for him, to be at Jerusalem the day of Pentecost.
17And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church.
18And when they were come to him, he said unto them, Ye know, from the first day that I came into Asia, after what manner I have been with you at all seasons,
19Serving the Lord with all humility of mind, and with many tears, and temptations, which befell me by the lying in wait of the Jews:
20And how I kept back nothing that was profitable unto you, but have shewed you, and have taught you publickly, and from house to house,
21Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.
22And now, behold, I go bound in the spirit unto Jerusalem, not knowing the things that shall befall me there:
23Save that the Holy Ghost witnesseth in every city, saying that bonds and afflictions abide me.
24But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.
25And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more.

Paul preached repentance to avoid the coming judgement:

Acts 17:
30And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Paul preached repentance and doing of works meet for repentance:

Acst 26:
19Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:
20But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.
21For these causes the Jews caught me in the temple, and went about to kill me.

Paul also preached the message of the kingdom of God. (See:Acts28:23,31;14:22;19:8)

we are talking about James here

safswan · Dec 25, 2020

Guojing said:
But you do agree that in acts 15:19, James did not excuse Jews who believe in Christ from the law right?

I have already commented on the above in the message you are responding to.Read it here again:

"James in his pronouncement did not contradict the teaching of the apostle Peter.He rather elaborated on what was expected of the new converts.He also agreed that the Gentiles did not have to be circumcised but mentioned aspects of the law which they need to observe.This,you and many others ignore and continue the false teaching that Gentiles were completely exempted from all of God's law.Hence James could not make a statement exempting Jews from keeping God's law as neither were the Gentiles."

Guojing said:
Are you trying to make an argument from silence, that James agreed with Peter, so he didn’t have to say it out?

As was said in the same message:

"The evidence in the passages does not support your conclusion. Rather the pronouncements of James and Peter compliment one another and gives a bigger picture,than either one,of what was expected of the new converts."

safswan · Dec 25, 2020

Guojing said:
we are talking about James here

And I have shown that Peter and James were not in disagreement with each other and hence neither would James be in disagreement with Paul.The message also exposes the lie that Paul only preached to the Gentiles and that he only preached about the grace of God and not of the kingdom of God.It shows also that the gospel preached by Peter was the same as that preached by Paul.

The message with the study Justification,which you ignored completely also shows how Paul and James were in complete agreement in what they wrote.Here is it again:

How can We Know if We Know Him?

Guojing · Dec 25, 2020

safswan said:
I have already commented on the above in the message you are responding to.Read it here again:

"James in his pronouncement did not contradict the teaching of the apostle Peter.He rather elaborated on what was expected of the new converts.He also agreed that the Gentiles did not have to be circumcised but mentioned aspects of the law which they need to observe.This,you and many others ignore and continue the false teaching that Gentiles were completely exempted from all of God's law.Hence James could not make a statement exempting Jews from keeping God's law as neither were the Gentiles."

As was said in the same message:

"The evidence in the passages does not support your conclusion. Rather the pronouncements of James and Peter compliment one another and gives a bigger picture,than either one,of what was expected of the new converts."

Alright then, you can show people scripture but you cannot make them read it literally.

How can We Know if We Know Him?

How do we know if we know him?

By remaining in him, and not sinning.

There is another way.

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