A little season

Spiritual Jew · Dec 13, 2020

Timtofly said:
The point is not "no one". That is true. The point is Satan is still accusing us night and day for the last 5990 years.

So, your answer to Paul's question "Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen?" in Romans 8:33 is Satan. I wonder why Paul didn't give that answer to his question? Do you somehow know something he didn't?

Spiritual Jew · Dec 13, 2020

DavidPT said:
Therefore, per Amil the little season in both accounts have to be referring to the same period of time, that would have to be the logical conclusion. Yet, I showed in the OP that these are not meaning the same events, same era of time, exposing yet another contradiction in Amil, since their view can't fit what the text requires, that one little season is before the 2nd coming, thus leads to the 2nd coming, and that the other little season is post the 2nd coming, thus doesn't lead to the 2nd coming nor involve any martyrdom of saints like the little season recorded in Revelation 6 does.

You didn't expose anything. You're always making claims like that without any strong evidence to support it.

If you think you exposed "yet another contradiction in Amil", then please read my post #4 and tell me exactly what you think I have wrong in what I said there.

DavidPT · Dec 13, 2020

Spiritual Jew said:
You didn't expose anything. You're always making claims like that without any strong evidence to support it.

If you think you exposed "yet another contradiction in Amil", then please read my post #4 and tell me exactly what you think I have wrong in what I said there.

I have already read it and am still planning on addressing some of it eventually. Just haven't gotten around to it yet. Recently I had most of my focus on the threads involving the 70 weeks. Maybe for others it's not difficult, but for me it's hard to focus on more than one thing at a time these days. Maybe because I'm getting older, I don't know. And now I'm trying to turn my focus back to this thread I started here.

DavidPT · Dec 13, 2020

Spiritual Jew said:
We know that the New Testament was not written in English but rather in Greek, so there are times when it is necessary to dig deeper for understanding by looking at the Greek text. You don't have to be a Greek expert to do that. There are tools you can find online to help show you the Greek words and their definitions for each English word in an English translation.

Anyway, let's start with looking at the Greek words translated as "short time" in Rev 12:12 and "little season" in Rev 6:11 and Rev 20:3.

Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short (Greek: oligos - Strong's G3641) time (Greek: kairos - Strong's G2540).

I have seen a number of people reference this verse who, like you, assume that this "short time" that Satan gets to try to take out his wrath on Christians after being kicked out of heaven is a literally short amount of time.

The Greek word translated as "short" there is oligos and that word can be used to refer to a relatively small number of a limited number rather than a literally small number. Here is the best example of that I could find:

Matthew 22:14 For many are called, but few (Greek: oligos) are chosen.

This is what Jesus said after telling the parable where he compared entering the kingdom of heaven (being saved) with being invited to a wedding banquet. The ones initially invited (the Jews) mostly rejected the invitation and then the invitation went out to the highways (Gentile nations) after that and many (a multitude) end up being invited.

So, what Jesus was saying there was that many are called/invited to salvation and few are chosen/saved. Therefore, we know that even though few are chosen the number of which are chosen/saved is actually a large number (many millions or however many it is). It's just relatively few compared to the overall "many" who are called.

So, with that in mind, I believe that the "short time" of Revelation 12:12 is only meant to be understood as a relatively short and limited amount of time. Satan knows that his time is limited and that Christ defeated Him and that he can't accuse believers before God in heaven anymore, and he is aware of what Revelation 20:10 says about his destiny, and he's angry about all of that.

A s to this portion of what you wrote, and I tried to read it as carefully as I could, I don't disagree with what you submitted here except for maybe where you assumed I assumed that this "short time" that Satan gets to try to take out his wrath on Christians after being kicked out of heaven is a literally short amount of time.

That wasn't even the reason why I brought that up. I brought it up to show, that if that short time began at the ascension, which I personally tend to favor as opposed to it being something that is yet to be fulfilled, and the fact this would be meaning the thousand years to Amils---a little season, such as recorded in Revelation 6 can't be running in parallel with this, since 2000 years would be a long period of time, and that a little season wouldn't be, in comparison.

I have then concluded, Premil and Amil aside, that this little season in Revelation 6 is something that happens in the very last days of this age, and not something that has been ongoing for the past 2000 years. If the latter is true, that a little season can involve thousands of years, the same should be true in Revelation 20 and that little season. Yet, I'm betting no one is even thinking that little season might go on for that length of time.

Spiritual Jew said:
Another way to show that the "short time" Satan gets after being cast out of heaven is not a literal short amount of time is the fact that Christ's ascension is mentioned (Rev 12:5) just prior to the description of him being cast out of heaven. There was no place for Satan and his angels in heaven anymore once Christ ascended there. Revelation 12:10 says "for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.".

Now, it's very important to consider whether or not Satan is still able to accuse us before God in heaven day and night because that will tell us a lot about the timing of him being cast out of heaven. I believe the following passage makes it abundantly clear that he cannot possibly still be accusing us before God in heaven anymore.

Romans 8:31 What, then, shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34 Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us.

Who can make any accusation against God's people? No one. That would include Satan. Can this be any more clear about that? Why can no one accuse us? Because our sins are forgiven and covered by the blood of Christ. What can anyone accuse us of when that is the case? Nothing. So, Satan was cast out of heaven long ago when Christ died, rose again and ascended to the right hand of the Father in heaven.

Thus far you are making it pretty easy for me, which is good, which means I don't need to spend extra time trying to type out anything in the way of a dispute. Pretty much everything you submitted here I agree with.

I'm still working on finishing addressing your post, and since the next portion of your post is not going to be as easy on me, thus a need to type out a dispute or 2, I'm going to try and do that in another post or 2. Not certain as to when. It's not that I might not know how to answer what you submitted, I still have to transfer my thoughts from my head to the keyboard, something that is apparently 2nd nature to some of you, but not to me it isn't. I'm still old school after all this time. I would rather discuss and debate something with someone face to face in person, rather than trying to do the way we have to do it in these forums. But, since I have no choice in the matter, I can only do what I can do, and I realize a lot of times it simply isn't good enough, yet you would have to be me to understand what some of this is like for me, where I pretty much already know how I might answer most posts addressed to me, then having to transfer those answers from my head to the keyboard.

sovereigngrace · Dec 13, 2020

DavidPT said:
The following is to somewhat add to the OP, thus, more to take into consideration before one has fully decided that Amil is the correct position.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

I still feel this verse is key in trying to determine where the thousand years fit, mainly meaning this part---and I saw the souls of them---which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands

You have to ask yourself some questions here.

1) Does this mean they were literally physically killed at some point? If yes, that then leads to a 2nd question.

2) when are they killed? At this point, without consulting other Scriptures, we at least know when they are not killed, and that is, they are not killed during any of the events recorded in Revelation 20:7-9. That at least narrows it down for us. That leaves two options. they are either killed before the thousand years begin, or they are killed during the thousand years. The fact their martyrdom relies on the fact that the beast has to ascend out of the pit first, this narrows things down even further. This obviously means the beast can't be in the pit when they are martyred.

Per Premil, Premil does not have the beast in the pit during the thousand years. Per Premil, Premil has the beast already in the LOF during the thousand years. No conflicts with Premil, then.

Per Amil, Amil does have the beast in the pit during the thousand years. Per Amil, Amil does not have the beast already in the LOF during the thousand years. Already we see a contradiction in Amil, because Amil has the beast in the pit during the thousand years, and that Amil has the martyrdom of these saints in question, per Revelation 20:4, being martyred during this same thousand years they have the beast in the pit.

If Amils were to instead claim that their martyrdom takes place before the thousand years, they then have to explain when was there ever a time before the time of the cross, the fact that's where they typically place the beginning of the thousand years, that a first beast rose out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. And that one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast?

And not only that, they then need to also explain when was there ever a time before the time of the cross, the fact that's where they typically place the beginning of the thousand years, that a 2nd beast then rose out of earth, where these working together are the reasons why these saints in question in Revelation 20:4 are martyred because of? Not to mention, John clearly indicated that the time of those events recorded in Revelation 13 are not meaning a time before his day, but a time future to his day.

And since there are 2 little seasons mentioned in the book of Revelation, and that we already know, or should know if we don't, since these martyrs in question, per Revelation 20:4, are not martyred during the little season recorded in Revelation 20, this has to mean they are instead martyred during the little season recorded in Revelation 6, further showing they are not the same little season. And not only that, the little season in Revelation 6 has to be followed by the 2nd coming, therefore making it impossible that the little season, per Amil, recorded in Revelation 20, is also followed by the 2nd coming if these are not even referring to the same little season.

There are so many deductions that you are way-off on that it is difficult to know where to start. A lot of your errors come from trying to foist your faulty view of Rev 20, the abyss, the beast, and Satan's little season on Amil. Because of this, your conclusions are messed up. I know you do not present this out of ignorance - because you have been rebuked multiple times by Amils on this matter, and have refused to accept what Amils believe. You are rather deliberately attempting to misrepresent Amil, which I find deeply troubling. Notwithstanding, Premils are doing that lately because they have run out of arguments. Each have been ably rebutted.

Your major problem is, you still do not grasp Amil. If you would listen, instead of talk all the time you would quickly grasp it.

The abyss is not a physical geographical place. After all, physical metal chains cannot hold spirits. It is a spiritual state of restraint for spirits now. Near the end, the beast will be released from his restraints and the “deadly wound” to his head will be “healed” (Revelation 13:3, 13:12 and 13:14). This tells us that he too was bruised like Satan’s head through the life, death and resurrection of Christ.

Just like Satan’s power and influence were curtailed through the life, death and first resurrection of Christ, so too was the beast’s. The fate of the two mirror each other. The reason is, the beast is dependent upon the power of Satan to do his evil. The beast is his envoy or enforcer. At the end Satan will be released from his restraint to empower the beast to subjugate the Church, curtail the Gospel expanse and deceive the nations again.

When Satan is released before the second coming for a little season then so is the beast, and Satan's minions. We see the devils in Revelation 9:2-3, the beast in 2 Thessalonians 2:3-12, Revelation 11:7 and Revelation 17:8, and Satan in Revelation 9:10-11 and Revelation 20:3 all being released before the second coming for a little season. Then comes the end! But Christ comes in majestic and eternal glory to overthrow the kingdom of darkness forever. The demonic realm is all killed when Satan is destroyed at the climactic second coming (Isaiah 26:19-27:1, 2 Thessalonians 2:8, Revelation 19:20, 20:9-10).

The spiritual restraint of the kingdom of darkness does not negate its ability to do harm. Just like a prisoner in a prison can still kill, rape, or take dope, the devil, the beast and their kingdom are still active within their heavenly boundaries. The one thing they cannot stop, up until Satan's little season, is the free spread of the Gospel. Every time they have tried that over 2000 years it has backfired on them.

Contrary to what many imagine, or have been taught, the beast, antichrist, the mystery of iniquity, the son of perdition, and that Wicked one, have been about for 2,000 yrs+. The beast therefore has to be a system, kingdom or a spirit. It obviously cannot be a man.

Most Bible scholars of whatever persuasion identify “the Beast” with “antichrist” and the “mystery of iniquity”. They believe that they all refer to the same entity. Also, “that man of sin,” “the son of perdition,” and “that Wicked” one.

The reason why many good Bible scholars have held that the “man of sin” is not a lone human being is because he has been alive and kicking for a lot longer than the lifetime of any human. In fact, the beast/antichrist/the mystery of iniquity/the son of perdition/that Wicked one has been about for 2,000 yrs+.

The Beast

Revelation 17:8 states, “The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.”

Revelation 17:9-13 further enlarges, “The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition. And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.”

This was 2,000 yrs ago!

That spirit of antichrist

1 John 2:18-23: “Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things. I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth. Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.”

1 John 4:1-3, 5-6: “Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world … They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

2 John 1:7: “For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.”

This was 2,000 yrs ago!

The mystery of iniquity (or lawlessness)

Paul explains in 2 Thessalonians 2:7-12 of his day, “For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.”

This was 2,000 yrs ago!

That man of sin

2 Thessalonians 2:1-13 declares: “Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day (the Second Coming) shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders. And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.”

This was 2,000 yrs ago!

I put it to you we are looking at a spirit – a spirit that is the direct antithesis of the Holy Spirit.

The thousand years/Satan's little season refers to the here-and-now. The persecution and martyrdom have been ongoing since Stephen. Satan, the beast and their kingdom has been resisting the Church throughout the intra-Advent period (Rev 20). Check Church history! You obviously want to deny the persecution of the early Church, the genocide of millions of believers in the Middle Ages by the Roman church, and the ongoing persecution of the true Church globally today. But facts are stubborn things. You deny this reality because it exposes your paradigm.

Davy · Dec 13, 2020

DavidPT said:
It seems to me that if Amils think martyrdom of saints take place during satan's little season after the thousand years, and what is recorded in Revelation 6 also records saints being martyred during a little season, that should make both little seasons one and the same, per Amil. Why? For one, the little season in Revelation 6 is followed by the 2nd coming, thus no more martyrdom of saints ever again. Per Amil, the little season after the thousand years also leads to the 2nd coming, and that if Amils have martyrdom of saints occurring during that little season, followed by the 2nd coming, that obviously means there is no more martyrdom of saints ever again there as well.

That's faulty logic, because Jesus in His Olivet discourse is where He first gave that info about saints being delivered up to councils and the synagogue of Satan, given within the main Signs of the end of this world, which is what the Seals in Rev.6 are about.

Mark 13:8-14
8 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles: these are the beginnings of sorrows.

9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for My sake, for a testimony against them.

10 And the gospel must first be published among all nations.

11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

12 Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death.

13 And ye shall be hated of all men for My name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
KJV

That delivering up is the Rev.6 5th Seal event.

DavidPT · Dec 14, 2020

Davy said:
That's faulty logic, because Jesus in His Olivet discourse is where He first gave that info about saints being delivered up to councils and the synagogue of Satan, given within the main Signs of the end of this world, which is what the Seals in Rev.6 are about.

Mark 13:8-14
8 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles: these are the beginnings of sorrows.

9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for My sake, for a testimony against them.

10 And the gospel must first be published among all nations.

11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

12 Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death.

13 And ye shall be hated of all men for My name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
KJV

That delivering up is the Rev.6 5th Seal event.

As to the 5th seal and what you brought up in Mark 13, why can't that martyrdom be referring to these----under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held(Revelation 6:9)----rather than these-----their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were(Revelation 6:9)?

What you brought up in mark 13 is not following by the 2nd coming, but what I brought up in Revelation 6:11 is, meaning once that is fulfilled. I see no reason why those in Revelation 6:11 would not be meaning the following.

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

That is in the end of this age context since this involves the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit. The 2nd coming of Christ follows the time of the beast.

Davy · Dec 14, 2020

DavidPT said:
As to the 5th seal and what you brought up in Mark 13, why can't that martyrdom be referring to these----under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held(Revelation 6:9)----rather than these-----their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were(Revelation 6:9)?

Uh, what? Apparently you didn't understand the Revelation 6:9-11 verses, especially the part in red below...

Rev 6:9-11
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost Thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?"

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
KJV

The souls under the altar that were slain in the past for The Word of God are told to wait, until their brethren (still alive on earth) are also killed as they were, which is pointing to the coming tribulation at the end of this world. The souls under the altar are in the heavenly, they are dead. Their brethren they are told to wait on that also will be killed are not dead yet, get it?

What you brought up in mark 13 is not following by the 2nd coming, but what I brought up in Revelation 6:11 is, meaning once that is fulfilled.

Then you simply disagree with the Scripture in Mark 13, because all I did was show it to you. If you don't want to believe it as written, then that's your problem. Don't try to push your disbelief of the Mark 13 Scripture off on me, that doesn't work, especially in light of Jesus revealing there the timing of His coming to gather His saints (Mark 13:24-27).

I see no reason why those in Revelation 6:11 would not be meaning the following.

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

That is in the end of this age context since this involves the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit. The 2nd coming of Christ follows the time of the beast.

Yes I know Jesus comes to destroy the beast. But that's not what you asked me about.

The souls under the altar are dead. They are told to wait on their brethren who are not yet dead, but will be killed as they were for The Word of God. The time for that will be at the end of this world just PRIOR to Christ's 2nd coming during the "great tribulation" He forewarned about. The events of that coming "great tribulation" are written about there too in Mark 13. So what's the problem?

DavidPT · Dec 14, 2020

Davy said:
Uh, what? Apparently you didn't understand the Revelation 6:9-11 verses, especially the part in red below...

Rev 6:9-11
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost Thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?"

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
KJV

The souls under the altar that were slain in the past for The Word of God are told to wait, until their brethren (still alive on earth) are also killed as they were, which is pointing to the coming tribulation at the end of this world. The souls under the altar are in the heavenly, they are dead. Their brethren they are told to wait on that also will be killed are not dead yet, get it?

Then you simply disagree with the Scripture in Mark 13, because all I did was show it to you. If you don't want to believe it as written, then that's your problem. Don't try to push your disbelief of the Mark 13 Scripture off on me, that doesn't work, especially in light of Jesus revealing there the timing of His coming to gather His saints (Mark 13:24-27).

Yes I know Jesus comes to destroy the beast. But that's not what you asked me about.

The souls under the altar are dead. They are told to wait on their brethren who are not yet dead, but will be killed as they were for The Word of God. The time for that will be at the end of this world just PRIOR to Christ's 2nd coming during the "great tribulation" He forewarned about. The events of that coming "great tribulation" are written about there too in Mark 13. So what's the problem?

We are obviously not on the same page here, which seems odd, the fact that some of what you are concluding appears to be some of what I am concluding. Maybe we need to start over, or maybe at least I do, keeping in mind that you initially said in a prior post that I was using faulty logic.

Spiritual Jew · Dec 14, 2020

DavidPT said:
A s to this portion of what you wrote, and I tried to read it as carefully as I could, I don't disagree with what you submitted here except for maybe where you assumed I assumed that this "short time" that Satan gets to try to take out his wrath on Christians after being kicked out of heaven is a literally short amount of time.

Yeah, I thought you were equating the "short time" with the "little season". Thanks for the clarification.

That wasn't even the reason why I brought that up. I brought it up to show, that if that short time began at the ascension, which I personally tend to favor as opposed to it being something that is yet to be fulfilled, and the fact this would be meaning the thousand years to Amils---a little season, such as recorded in Revelation 6 can't be running in parallel with this, since 2000 years would be a long period of time, and that a little season wouldn't be, in comparison.

I agree. I don't see the "short time" of Rev 12:12 as being equivalent to the "little season" mentioned in Rev 6:11 and Rev 20:3.

I have then concluded, Premil and Amil aside, that this little season in Revelation 6 is something that happens in the very last days of this age, and not something that has been ongoing for the past 2000 years.

In terms of the time from the opening of the fifth seal to the end of the age, I agree. The time from the opening of the fifth seal to the end of the age when Christ returns will be "a little season".

Thus far you are making it pretty easy for me, which is good, which means I don't need to spend extra time trying to type out anything in the way of a dispute. Pretty much everything you submitted here I agree with.

It's much better when we agree, isn't it? We actually agree on more than what we might think, but it's the things we disagree on that we usually discuss.

I'm still working on finishing addressing your post, and since the next portion of your post is not going to be as easy on me, thus a need to type out a dispute or 2, I'm going to try and do that in another post or 2. Not certain as to when. It's not that I might not know how to answer what you submitted, I still have to transfer my thoughts from my head to the keyboard, something that is apparently 2nd nature to some of you, but not to me it isn't.

That's okay. Take your time. Just enjoy the part we agree on for now.

I'm still old school after all this time. I would rather discuss and debate something with someone face to face in person, rather than trying to do the way we have to do it in these forums.

I'm the opposite of that. If we discussed these things in person you would question whether I'm the same person that you talk to on these forums. I'm not able to articulate my thoughts in person the same way I can in this format.

But, since I have no choice in the matter, I can only do what I can do, and I realize a lot of times it simply isn't good enough, yet you would have to be me to understand what some of this is like for me, where I pretty much already know how I might answer most posts addressed to me, then having to transfer those answers from my head to the keyboard.

I understand. I sympathize with you because of what I said before about having the opposite problem.

Spiritual Jew · Dec 14, 2020

DavidPT said:
As to the 5th seal and what you brought up in Mark 13, why can't that martyrdom be referring to these----under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held(Revelation 6:9)----rather than these-----their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were(Revelation 6:9)?

Why would John have only seen a small portion of "the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held" instead of all who "were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held" up to that point? I don't believe that makes much sense and I don't see any reason for concluding that.

What you brought up in mark 13 is not following by the 2nd coming, but what I brought up in Revelation 6:11 is, meaning once that is fulfilled. I see no reason why those in Revelation 6:11 would not be meaning the following.

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

That's only referring to "their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were" (Rev 6:11).

Davy · Dec 14, 2020

Spiritual Jew said:
Yeah, I thought you were equating the "short time" with the "little season". Thanks for the clarification.

I agree. I don't see the "short time" of Rev 12:12 as being equivalent to the "little season" mentioned in Rev 6:11 and Rev 20:3.

I do. And it's obvious they are about the same timing, i.e., the "great tribulation". That is the time that the "dragon" has to reign, 42 months, and the Gentiles tread the holy city (Revelation 13:4-8; Revelation 11:1-8). The devil knows he has but a 'short time', a 'short space', and the souls under the altar are told to wait a 'little season' until their brethren are likewise killed as they were, which is about the tribulation timing.

Spiritual Jew · Dec 14, 2020

Davy said:
I do. And it's obvious they are about the same timing, i.e., the "great tribulation". That is the time that the "dragon" has to reign, 42 months, and the Gentiles tread the holy city (Revelation 13:4-8; Revelation 11:1-8). The devil knows he has but a 'short time', a 'short space', and the souls under the altar are told to wait a 'little season' until their brethren are likewise killed as they were, which is about the tribulation timing.

You understand that when it talks about Satan and his angels being cast out of heaven that means he can't accuse believers before God day and night anymore, right? Do you think Satan can accuse us before the throne of God now? What is your answer to Paul's question in this verse:

Romans 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

DavidPT · Dec 14, 2020

Spiritual Jew said:
Why would John have only seen a small portion of "the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held" instead of all who "were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held" up to that point? I don't believe that makes much sense and I don't see any reason for concluding that.

We have to keep in mind how I have been arguing throughout this thread, that a little season would be a short time in comparison to a thousand years, for example, or even 2000 years. And the fact their martrydom is fulfilled during a little season, that according to Revelation 6:11, that is a better fit for the 42 months that the beast reigns for in the end of this age, IMO anyway.

I see that 42 months meaning the great trib recorded in the Discourse. It is immediately after the GT, that first the sun goes dark, etc, whatever that might mean, which btw, is meaning the events recorded in the 6th seal, which btw, those events follow the fulfillment of the little season recorded in the 5th seal, where eventually this is all followed by the sign of the Son of man in heaven, followed by His coming(Matthew 24:30), which I take to mean the 2nd coming.

sovereigngrace · Dec 14, 2020

Spiritual Jew said:
My goodness, David. Your post was very long, which you acknowledged. Maybe too long, but I do appreciate your effort to be thorough about this. It's probably too much for most to take in with one post. But, I somehow had the patience and attention span to read it all (it wasn't easy, though!), but I'm not sure if many others will.

Since your post is so long, it will require a long response and I decided not to address every point that you made one by one because that would take forever. Instead, I will just give you my understanding of the "short time" of Revelation 12:12 and explain why I believe it is a different time period than the "little season" of Rev 6:11 and Rev 20:3. And, yes, I do equate the little season of Rev 6:11 with the "little season" of Rev 20:3 and I'll explain why in a bit.

We know that the New Testament was not written in English but rather in Greek, so there are times when it is necessary to dig deeper for understanding by looking at the Greek text. You don't have to be a Greek expert to do that. There are tools you can find online to help show you the Greek words and their definitions for each English word in an English translation.

Anyway, let's start with looking at the Greek words translated as "short time" in Rev 12:12 and "little season" in Rev 6:11 and Rev 20:3.

Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short (Greek: oligos - Strong's G3641) time (Greek: kairos - Strong's G2540).

I have seen a number of people reference this verse who, like you, assume that this "short time" that Satan gets to try to take out his wrath on Christians after being kicked out of heaven is a literally short amount of time.

The Greek word translated as "short" there is oligos and that word can be used to refer to a relatively small number of a limited number rather than a literally small number. Here is the best example of that I could find:

Matthew 22:14 For many are called, but few (Greek: oligos) are chosen.

This is what Jesus said after telling the parable where he compared entering the kingdom of heaven (being saved) with being invited to a wedding banquet. The ones initially invited (the Jews) mostly rejected the invitation and then the invitation went out to the highways (Gentile nations) after that and many (a multitude) end up being invited.

So, what Jesus was saying there was that many are called/invited to salvation and few are chosen/saved. Therefore, we know that even though few are chosen the number of which are chosen/saved is actually a large number (many millions or however many it is). It's just relatively few compared to the overall "many" who are called.

So, with that in mind, I believe that the "short time" of Revelation 12:12 is only meant to be understood as a relatively short and limited amount of time. Satan knows that his time is limited and that Christ defeated Him and that he can't accuse believers before God in heaven anymore, and he is aware of what Revelation 20:10 says about his destiny, and he's angry about all of that.

Another way to show that the "short time" Satan gets after being cast out of heaven is not a literal short amount of time is the fact that Christ's ascension is mentioned (Rev 12:5) just prior to the description of him being cast out of heaven. There was no place for Satan and his angels in heaven anymore once Christ ascended there. Revelation 12:10 says "for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.".

Now, it's very important to consider whether or not Satan is still able to accuse us before God in heaven day and night because that will tell us a lot about the timing of him being cast out of heaven. I believe the following passage makes it abundantly clear that he cannot possibly still be accusing us before God in heaven anymore.

Romans 8:31 What, then, shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34 Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us.

Who can make any accusation against God's people? No one. That would include Satan. Can this be any more clear about that? Why can no one accuse us? Because our sins are forgiven and covered by the blood of Christ. What can anyone accuse us of when that is the case? Nothing. So, Satan was cast out of heaven long ago when Christ died, rose again and ascended to the right hand of the Father in heaven.

Now, let's look at the Greek words translated as "little season" in both Revelation 6:11 and Revelation 20:3.

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little (Greek: mikros - Strong's G3398) season (Greek: chronos - Strong's G5550), until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Revelation 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little (Greek: mikros - Strong's G3398) season (Greek: chronos - Strong's G5550)

Notice that different Greek words are translated in Rev 6:11 and Rev 20:3 as "a little season" than are translated as "a short time" in Revelation 12:12. That's very important to note. In this case, the Greek word translated as "little" in Rev 6:11 and Rev 20:3 is "mikros" and that word, unlike "oligos", means a literal small/little number. And then the Greek word translated as "season" (chronos) in those verses refers to a period of time of any length. In this case, we know it's a "little" amount of time even though we don't know exactly how long.

So, to summarize, the "short time" of Revelation 12:12 refers to Satan's limited amount of time he has been given to try to persecute Christians since he was cast out of heaven long ago. The little season he is given after the thousand years to "deceive the nations" is a literally small amount of time rather than just a limited, but not literally small, amount of time.

My post has gotten pretty long at this point as well, but there is one last point I would like to make to show why I believe Revelation 6:11 is referring to the same "little season" Revelation 20:3.

If you read Revelation 6:9-11 you can see that the timing of it is when the fifth seal is opened. I believe the book of Revelation contains several recapitulations or parallel sections that all culminate with the return of Christ. So, I see the fifth trumpet as being parallel to the fifth seal.

Notice what happens at the fifth trumpet:

Revelation 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. 2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. 3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power...11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.

We know that Revelation 20 says that the dragon, Satan, is cast into the bottomless pit for a "thousand years" and is loosed when the thousand years end. And here in this passage, at the fifth trumpet, which we agree occurs before the return of Christ, the bottomless pit is opened. It has previously been sealed and locked which is exactly what is described in Rev 20:3 which says the dragon, Satan, is cast there to "shut him up, and set a seal upon him".

So, to me, Revelation 9 is describing the time when the fifth seal is opened and the fifth trumpet sounds and the souls in heaven ask "How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?" and Satan "is loosed out of his prison" (Rev 20:7).

Notice that the figurative "locusts" described in Revelation 9 have as their king "the angel of the bottomless pit". That means the locusts are angels as well. Fallen angels. Who do the fallen angels have as their king? Satan.

Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

So, Abaddon/Apollyon (English: Destroyer) is just another name for Satan. He has many names including Lucifer, Beelzebub, that old serpent, the Devil and Satan. Abaddon or Apollyon is just another of his names. Each one describes a character trait of his. In this case it's his trait of being a destroyer of people's lives.

So, Revelation 9 shows us when Satan is loosed from the bottomless pit, which will be at the fifth trumpet (Christ returns at the seventh and last trumpet).

Excellent work!

sovereigngrace · Dec 14, 2020

DavidPT said:
We have to keep in mind how I have been arguing throughout this thread, that a little season would be a short time in comparison to a thousand years, for example, or even 2000 years. And the fact their martrydom is fulfilled during a little season, that according to Revelation 6:11, that is a better fit for the 42 months that the beast reigns for in the end of this age, IMO anyway.

I see that 42 months meaning the great trib recorded in the Discourse. It is immediately after the GT, that first the sun goes dark, etc, whatever that might mean, which btw, is meaning the events recorded in the 6th seal, which btw, those events follow the fulfillment of the little season recorded in the 5th seal, where eventually this is all followed by the sign of the Son of man in heaven, followed by His coming(Matthew 24:30), which I take to mean the 2nd coming.

Is heavenly time the same as earthly time?

FreeinChrist · Dec 14, 2020

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DavidPT · Dec 14, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Is heavenly time the same as earthly time?

I'm not grasping what you are meaning about that and why? The chronology of events I submitted seem to line up perfect with what transpires in the end of this age.

1st there is the GT, that according to Matthew 24. Where we are then told, And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved---which then makes sense if the amount of these days are meaning 42 months. Immediately after that the sun goes dark, followed by the sign of the Son of man in heaven, followed by the 2nd coming.

Compare with the 5th seal---a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled---followed by---the sun became black as sackcloth of hair---followed by---hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

In both accounts, before the sun goes dark, there is short period of time, as opposed to long period of time, that obviously involves persecution. Matthew 24 describes this time as follows----For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Revelation 6:11 describes this time as follows----a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Revelation 11:2 describes this same period of time as follows----But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

None of that is meaning what happened in 70 AD. To take that to literally mean that, would mean one needs to take the following to be meaning in the 2nd temple in the first century before it was destroyed---the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein(Revelation 11:1). If Revelation 11 involves a period of time post the death and resurrection of Christ, which it obviously does, why would anyone still be worshiping in an obsolete temple, as if this was a good thing or something? BTW, all I'm doing here with this part is reasoning through this, therefore it has nothing to do with what you make of these same verses, since I'm not certain what you make of them. But I do know there are numerous partial preterist Amils who do think 70 AD is meant here. Whether you are also one or not, that I don't know.

And since nothing in Revelation 11:1-2 involves 70 AD, what is it that the following is describing----for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months?

It is meaning this for one---And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them(Revelation 11:7)---which then is referring to this---and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months(Revelation 13:5)----And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them(Revelation 13:5)----and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed(Revelation 13:5).

It is during the events recorded in Revelation 13 that the little season recorded in Revelation 6:11 occurs during. That obviously means the beast has to ascend out of the pit first. Revelation 11:7 already proves that anyway.

Revelation 15:2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

This is meaning once the little season recorded in Revelation 6:11 has been fulfilled, as in concluded. These in Revelation 15:2 are meaning these in Revelation 20:4----and I saw the souls of them----which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands

All of this clearly proves, that since these martyrs recorded in Revelation 20:4 above are not martyred during any of the events recorded in Revelation 20:7-9, but have already been martyred before that period of time even arrives, that Premil is the only position this can work with. What settles it is that the ones meant in Revelation 15:2 are meaning the same ones meant in Revelation 20:4 above, and are not meaning anyone after the thousand years have expired. And that all of these in Revelation 15:2 and Revelation 20:4 above are meaning these----their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were(Revelation 6:11)---and that this martyrdom takes place during a little season, but not during a little season after the thousand years, but during a little season before the thousand years begin. Plus the beast has to ascend out of the pit before there can even be any saints recorded in Revelation 20:4 who are martyred because they refused to worship the beast that ascends out of the pit. And the fact some of you were former Premils, did you not even take any of these things into consideration before deciding Amil was the correct position instead?

sovereigngrace · Dec 14, 2020

DavidPT said:
I'm not grasping what you are meaning about that and why? The chronology of events I submitted seem to line up perfect with what transpires in the end of this age.

1st there is the GT, that according to Matthew 24. Where we are then told, And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved---which then makes sense if the amount of these days are meaning 42 months. Immediately after that the sun goes dark, followed by the sign of the Son of man in heaven, followed by the 2nd coming.

Compare with the 5th seal---a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled---followed by---the sun became black as sackcloth of hair---followed by---hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

In both accounts, before the sun goes dark, there is short period of time, as opposed to long period of time, that obviously involves persecution. Matthew 24 describes this time as follows----For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Revelation 6:11 describes this time as follows----a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Revelation 11:2 describes this same period of time as follows----But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

None of that is meaning what happened in 70 AD. To take that to literally mean that, would mean one needs to take the following to be meaning in the 2nd temple in the first century before it was destroyed---the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein(Revelation 11:1). If Revelation 11 involves a period of time post the death and resurrection of Christ, which it obviously does, why would anyone still be worshiping in an obsolete temple, as if this was a good thing or something? BTW, all I'm doing here with this part is reasoning through this, therefore it has nothing to do with what you make of these same verses, since I'm not certain what you make of them. But I do know there are numerous partial preterist Amils who do think 70 AD is meant here. Whether you are also one or not, that I don't know.

And since nothing in Revelation 11:1-2 involves 70 AD, what is it that the following is describing----for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months?

It is meaning this for one---And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them(Revelation 11:7)---which then is referring to this---and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months(Revelation 13:5)----And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them(Revelation 13:5)----and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed(Revelation 13:5).

It is during the events recorded in Revelation 13 that the little season recorded in Revelation 6:11 occurs during. That obviously means the beast has to ascend out of the pit first. Revelation 11:7 already proves that anyway.

Revelation 15:2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

This is meaning once the little season recorded in Revelation 6:11 has been fulfilled, as in concluded. These in Revelation 15:2 are meaning these in Revelation 20:4----and I saw the souls of them----which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands

All of this clearly proves, that since these martyrs recorded in Revelation 20:4 above are not martyred during any of the events recorded in Revelation 20:7-9, but have already been martyred before that period of time even arrives, that Premil is the only position this can work with. What settles it is that the ones meant in Revelation 15:2 are meaning the same ones meant in Revelation 20:4 above, and are not meaning anyone after the thousand years have expired. And that all of these in Revelation 15:2 and Revelation 20:4 above are meaning these----their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were(Revelation 6:11)---and that this martyrdom takes place during a little season, but not during a little season after the thousand years, but during a little season before the thousand years begin. Plus the beast has to ascend out of the pit before there can even be any saints recorded in Revelation 20:4 who are martyred because they refused to worship the beast that ascends out of the pit. And the fact some of you were former Premils, did you not even take any of these things into consideration before deciding Amil was the correct position instead?

See post 35 that responds to this.

Spiritual Jew · Dec 14, 2020

DavidPT said:
We have to keep in mind how I have been arguing throughout this thread, that a little season would be a short time in comparison to a thousand years, for example, or even 2000 years. And the fact their martrydom is fulfilled during a little season, that according to Revelation 6:11, that is a better fit for the 42 months that the beast reigns for in the end of this age, IMO anyway.

Keep in mind here that I was specifically referring to the ones John saw "that were slain for the word of God". And you are saying "their martyrdom is fulfilled during a little season"? If that's what you were intending to say, I believe you need to read the passage more carefully.

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

It is not "the souls of them that were slain for the word of God" who are slain during "a little season", it is "their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were" who are killed during "a little season" that starts after the opening of the fifth seal.

A little season

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