Did God foreordain sin?

Yes. God decreed the fall to display his own glory.


Paul demonstrates this forcefully in Romans 9.

Neostarwcc said:

Yes or no? Why or why not?

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I dunno about foreordaining but yes he knew and allowed our sin.
We see this in the law
Deut 31:20 For when I shall have brought them into the land which I sware unto their fathers, that floweth with milk and honey; and they shall have eaten and filled themselves, and waxen fat; then will they turn unto other gods, and serve them, and provoke me, and break my covenant.
21 And it shall come to pass, when many evils and troubles are befallen them, that this song shall testify against them as a witness; for it shall not be forgotten out of the mouths of their seed: for I know their imagination which they go about, even now, before I have brought them into the land which I sware.

why?

His mercy, or grace increase to his glory.

Rom. 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

The Siniai covenant could not abolish the promises made in covenant 430 earlier with Abraham. So as sin increased so too did his mercy.
Seen here...
Deut 26:40 If they shall confess their iniquity, and the iniquity of their fathers, with their trespass which they trespassed against me, and that also they have walked contrary unto me;
41 And that I also have walked contrary unto them, and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if then their uncircumcised hearts be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity:
42 Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac, and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land.
43 The land also shall be left of them, and shall enjoy her sabbaths, while she lieth desolate without them: and they shall accept of the punishment of their iniquity: because, even because they despised my judgments, and because their soul abhorred my statutes.
44 And yet for all that, when they be in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and to break my covenant with them: for I am the LORD their God.
45 But I will for their sakes remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the heathen, that I might be their God: I am the LORD.

That would be question you could ask Him some day but be ready to tell Him to His face of Glory WHY you ask such a question.

Neostarwcc said:

Yes or no? Why or why not?

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If one does believe that God foreordained sin, as is stated in the Heidelberg, Westminster, and other confessions, then there must be good reason for it. Think of it this way: a universe without sin would not be able to display the glory of God's justice. There would be no fear of punishment, because there would be no sin to punish. There would be no challenges to holiness in life, because there would be no possibility of failure of holiness. There would be no mercy to express, because no one would need it. Thus there would be no faith, no perseverance, no faithfulness, etc. It might even be a very dull and boring existence. It certainly would not display the fullness of God's glory the way the Bibles teaches it.

1 Pet. 1:20: "For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you." This tells me that God designed this whole creation around the single event of Christ's death and resurrection. It means that sin and evil had to be part of it.

One might claim that if God foreordained sin, it makes Him evil, or men would not be culpable for their sinful acts. NOT SO!! That's a straw-man argument. God foreordained sin by creating man in a way that sin was possible for him, and that he would commit sin (and so goes the logic, if one really believes that God is sovereign over everything, and planned everything around Christ's sacrifice). This makes the creature culpable for the sin they commit, because they did it from their own will. God ordained that sin in principle would be ingrained in the creation, so He is not to be blamed for specific sinful acts that men do of their own wills. If a person insists that God is to blame, then they are blame-shifting. Rom. 8:20 "the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it." Thus, sin is the obstacle to holiness that must be overcome by faith.

An example might be that a parent is cooking on a hot stove, and telling the child not to touch it. In fear, that parent might spank the child if the child starts to touch it. But if the parent doesn't whack the child in prevention, but allows the child to touch the stove, the child's hurt is not the parent's fault, even though the parent set up the conditions in the kitchen. This also challenges the child to believe in the integrity and goodness of the parent. I hope this analogy helps.
TD

Neostarwcc said:

Yes or no? Why or why not?

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no He did not decree sin... It is not of His appointment.

God decreed obedience, faith, righteousness, eternal life, peace and harmony.
God also decreed - free will

God foreknew about rebellion and hatred against God, beings at war with God.

ralliann said:

I dunno about foreordaining but yes he knew and allowed our sin.

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agreed.

tdidymas said:

If one does believe that God foreordained sin, as is stated in the Heidelberg, Westminster, and other confessions, then there must be good reason for it.

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The reason is "error exists" and so opinions expressed in a few cases in the confessions mentioned are not entirely accurate.

Neostarwcc said:

Yes or no? Why or why not?

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Knowledge is not causation.

Yesha said:

Yes. God decreed the fall to display his own glory.

Our first parents being seduced by the subtlety and temptation of Satan, sinned in eating the forbidden fruit. This their sin, God was pleased, according to his wise and holy counsel, to permit, having purposed to order it to his own glory. - Westminster Confession of Faith 6.1​

Paul demonstrates this forcefully in Romans 9.

22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? - Romans 9:22-24 (ESV)​

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Romans 9: Note the beginning of Paul`s question, " what if God". We use "what if" at the beginning of a question when we are asking about the consequence of an action that is undesirable. Clearly Paul is not saying God foreordained sin or even indicating the potential. He is speaking of the opposite in this case . This interpretation is in error. And the Westminister confession of faith, does not supersede scripture. Blessings.

Maria Billingsley said:

Romans 9: Note the beginning of Paul`s question, " what if God". We use "what if" at the beginning of a question when we are asking about the consequence of an action that is undesirable. Clearly Paul is not saying God foreordained sin or even indicating the potential. He is speaking of the opposite in this case . This interpretation is in error. And the Westminister confession of faith, does not supersede scripture. Blessings.

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No one claims that anything supercedes scripture. But it appears to me that you are misinterpreting Paul's "what if" statement, since he implies it being reality in v. 23. In fact, the NASB translators add the words "He did so" because the sense of the context demands it. God did in fact make known the riches of His mercy, and did it to Gentiles as well as Jews. So then, the "what if" is answered with the reality of what God actually did. So he is not speaking of the opposite as you claim.

Therefore, (in my opinion) Paul is saying that God does want to make His power known on the punishment of evildoers and does indeed endure with patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction. I just don't see how you can avoid God foreordaining the principle of sin included in the creation, in this passage of scripture.
TD

tdidymas said:

No one claims that anything supercedes scripture. But it appears to me that you are misinterpreting Paul's "what if" statement, since he implies it being reality in v. 23. In fact, the NASB translators add the words "He did so" because the sense of the context demands it. God did in fact make known the riches of His mercy, and did it to Gentiles as well as Jews. So then, the "what if" is answered with the reality of what God actually did. So he is not speaking of the opposite as you claim.

Therefore, (in my opinion) Paul is saying that God does want to make His power known on the punishment of evildoers and does indeed endure with patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction. I just don't see how you can avoid God foreordaining the principle of sin included in the creation, in this passage of scripture.
TD

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And the debate goes on. I am not a Calvinist so we can stop here. The least you can do is read the post I am commenting on. Be blessed.

disciple Clint said:

Knowledge is not causation.

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amen - having seen the movie once - you know how it ends - but you did not cause the movie to end that way.

Maria Billingsley said:

Romans 9: Note the beginning of Paul`s question, " what if God". We use "what if" at the beginning of a question when we are asking about the consequence of an action that is undesirable. Clearly Paul is not saying God foreordained sin or even indicating the potential. He is speaking of the opposite in this case . This interpretation is in error. And the Westminister confession of faith, does not supersede scripture. Blessings.

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True - God did not ordain rebellion and hatred against his own person.

But God did choose to send blessing, to send rain "on the just and the unjust" -- to declare His will as "I am not willing for ANY to perish but for all to come to repentance" - 2 Peter 3.

Even though He knows full well that it is only the "few" of Matt 7 that make it to heaven.

At the end of time God will still be able to say of the lost "what MORE could I have done than that which I have already done?" Isaiah 5:4

tdidymas said:

No one claims that anything supercedes scripture. But it appears to me that you are misinterpreting Paul's "what if" statement, since he implies it being reality in v. 23. In fact, the NASB translators add the words "He did so" because the sense of the context demands it. God did in fact make known the riches of His mercy, and did it to Gentiles as well as Jews. So then, the "what if" is answered with the reality of what God actually did. So he is not speaking of the opposite as you claim.

Therefore, (in my opinion) Paul is saying...

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For example....

You go to heaven someday and find out at the great judgment that a precious daughter of yours did not make it to heaven even though the Gospel was fully available to her and God loves her every bit as much as He loves you.

God "always knew" the result - but God still loved her and "endured with much patience" all her choices to the contrary -- all the while knowing what the end would be.

1 John 2:2 "Christ is the atoning sacrifice for our sins - and NOT for OUR sins only - but for the sins the whole world"

In this way God demonstrates is love, and grace and mercy for those who are saved by showing them - how much He cares for and loved their own lost loved ones.

Yesha said:

Yes. God decreed the fall to display his own glory.

Our first parents being seduced by the subtlety and temptation of Satan, sinned in eating the forbidden fruit. This their sin, God was pleased, according to his wise and holy counsel, to permit, having purposed to order it to his own glory. - Westminster Confession of Faith 6.1
​

Click to expand...

Yesha said:

Paul demonstrates this forcefully in Romans 9.

22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? - Romans 9:22-24 (ESV)​

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The riches of God's glory is made known by his "enduring with much patience" those whom He knows will ultimately choose to be lost.


For example....

You go to heaven someday and find out at the great judgment that a precious daughter of yours did not make it to heaven even though the Gospel was fully available to her and God loves her every bit as much as He loves you.

God "always knew" the result - but God still loved her and "endured with much patience" all her choices to the contrary -- all the while knowing what the end would be.

1 John 2:2 "Christ is the atoning sacrifice for our sins - and NOT for OUR sins only - but for the sins the whole world"

In this way God demonstrates is love, and grace and mercy for those who are saved by showing them - how much He cares for and loved their own lost loved ones.

He is able to say in all honesty "what MORE could I have done than that which I have already done?" Isaiah 5:4 in those case of those lost whom he has endured "with much patience"

For it is the "Goodness of God that leads you to repentance" Rom 2:3-4

Neostarwcc said:

Yes or no? Why or why not?

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Foreordained means God caused humans to sin, while God allowing people to sin.

Sin itself is not God’s desire, but will allow people to sin because it is need to help willing people in fulfilling their earthly objective.

God sees the future, which means He obviously knew we would sin.

That doesn't mean He approved of it, or wanted it to happen, but to allow us to have "free will" He pre-ordained it in that sense.

I suppose even the devil fits into that category. I once asked my old pastor why God allowed the Devil to exist, and to have so much power. He thought for a minute, then shrugged and said, "Oh, I suppose he's got a job to do."

This raises the question did God foreordain the Devil's rebellion. Again He would have known it would happen, and since it was going to happen, He used it for His own purposes.

So in a sense He even foreordained Satan's rebellion.

At the same time though, the Devil made the choice to revolt of his own free will. It was HIS decision.

BobRyan said:

For example....

You go to heaven someday and find out at the great judgment that a precious daughter of yours did not make it to heaven even though the Gospel was fully available to her and God loves her every bit as much as He loves you.

God "always knew" the result - but God still loved her and "endured with much patience" all her choices to the contrary -- all the while knowing what the end would be.

1 John 2:2 "Christ is the atoning sacrifice for our sins - and NOT for OUR sins only - but for the sins the whole world"

In this way God demonstrates is love, and grace and mercy for those who are saved by showing them - how much He cares for and loved their own lost loved ones.

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It looks to me like you are depicting God as a prophet who stands afar in observation of people, knowing what they will do on their own. Am I reading you correctly?
TD