LDS Joseph Smith and the Astronomers
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Peter1000
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Yes, we believe in hell. But in the scriptures hell is represented 2 ways. One hell is temporary, while the other hell is eternal.
The first hell is also called "prison" (see 1 Peter 3:19) in the scriptures and is one of the places in the spirit world that will maintain those spirits who have done evil on earth. This hell/prison will be emptied of its inhabitants and closed just before the resurrection and judgement day.
Even many of these prison/hell inhabitants will find their way into the lowest degree of heaven, after they have knelt down before Jesus and confessed his name.
The other hell is the permanent hell called "outer darkness". (see Matthew 8:12) Some people on earth that denied the Holy Spirit and did evil, and would not repent, will be placed in "outer darkness" which satan and his followers will inhabit for eternity.
One of the interesting things about this place is that the mortals who are placed there have a distinct advantage over satan and his followers, because the mortals will have perfect resurrected bodies of flesh and bone and spirit. Satan and his followers will only be in a spirit form, with far less capacity than resurrected bodies.
Hell is an intresting discussion.
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Peter1000
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You say, "the ones He created reproduced". That is not what the scripture says. The scripture says And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth. So not just those that would reproduce, but every living creature that moveth. IOW He created them all on the 6th day.
But notice that this creation happened in the first chapter of Genesis. And this creation was done by God (God the Father).
Now notice that there is another creation account in the second chapter of Genesis and this creation was done by The Lord God (Jesus, the Son of God).
We believe that God created all things spiritually in the 1st chapter of Genesis, and that Jesus, the Lord God created all the natural producers in the 2nd chapter of Genesis.
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mmksparbud
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[/QUOTE]
You can believe any old fairy tale you want. The truth is the truthy and you believing a lie does noit in any way make it the truth. You want to believe that God put His Spirit into whales and worms that were already living as some sort of spirit--that's your choice. They could not be living without His breath no matter where they were, and if they already had His spirit in them, they did not need it again at creation. It says they lived at the giving of His breath and died when He took it away. It says nothing about putting any spirit in them from before creation. And by the way---Trump lost the election and him saying he won doesn't make it true. He can believe anything he wants, also. He will find out the truth in due time and so will you.
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mmksparbud
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There is no 2nd creation. There is one creation, Gen 1 is told in chronological order, Gen 2 goes back and fills in the details. It is a common way in Jewish literature, but then since you do so little reading of the actual scriptures you wouldn't know that. The Exodus is described many times throughout the bible--that does not mean there were several Exoduses--the reign of certain kings are described in several places with the same or different details---doesn't mean the same king reigned several different times! There was no spiritual Exodus, nor spiritual reign of David and other kings followed by the actual, physical Exodus and reigns anymore than there was any "spiritual creation" followed by a physical!!
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Peter1000
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We do not believe this, so again, stop putting things out there about us that is not true. God puts a living spirit into a created, but dead whale or worm or human. When the living, eternal spirit enters the body of the whale, worm, or human, that entities comes alive. When the spirit leaves the entity, it dies.
Where do all the whales ever created live? Do you see what I am saying? If God created and breathed into every whale that ever lived on the 6th day, why do we still have whales swimming around today, 5000 years later?
God creates a mortal whale. 100-200 years later, that whale gets old and dies. According to you, 100-200 years after day 6, all the whales should be dead and gone. We are 5000 years after day 6 and there are still whales on the earth, how could that be. Could it be that God created all the whales spiritually, and then systematically allow their spirits to come into newly produced natural bodies as time goes by?
You tell me your answer to how God could have created all the mortal whales on day 6, 5000 years ago, but we still have mortal whales swimming around today?
BTW, we already know the truth of the election, it was theft in broad daylight, caught on video, and attested to by hundreds of whislteblowers, and machines that have been captured and analyzed. So the truth is known. Trump actually won the election by quite a margin.
Now the question is, will the powers that betrayed the people of the United States, be brought to justice and will the right man be the president of the United States? Yet to be seen.
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mmksparbud
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So, you are saying that there were whales and worms---just spiritually up there before they were created on earth? And spiritually means they were not alive yet---so there were millions of dead whales and worms and every other creatures up there along with billions of humans not yet created all up there dead, along with billions of angels??? Seriously?? If they are living, they have to have the breath of God to give them life--otherwise they are just sculptures up there--Can you please say something that makes sense--cause none of this does. You have lifeless spirits--you will have to define what spirit means---because Jesus says God is spirit and you are saying every creature that was ever created was a spirit first which means everything is God???!!! Yet you seem to be sayin g that everything up there was dead--so yo0u have billions of dead stuff up there without life---until God creates a body for them? And what scriptures do you get that from? The more you explain, the more totally confusing and nonsensical it becomes!!
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Peter, in posts #82 and again in post #127 you made claims about an extraordinary archaeological find in Panama that supported the Mormon point of view. In post #180, I asked if that claim is separate from the claim that the Ark of the Covenant had been found in Panama. I wanted an answer to that before proceeding with a more detailed answer. I never got an answer to the question I posed in post #180.
As far as I can tell, many of the claims about the find in Panama are influenced by Mormon thinking. These claims are a jumbled mess. One video I have seen says the mummified body of the Mormon prophets Nephi and I believe one other Mormon prophet were found. I don't believe the Book of Mormon says anything about Nephi being mummified. The content of the video doesn't back up this outrageous claim in the title. They don't always.
I haven't seen any non-Mormon sources backing up claims made by Mormons, or lending support to the Book of Mormon.
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There are no modern translations that agree with the KJV on this point.
You are playing games here. The Guardian reported accurately that a look at the Greek words proves that the KJV translators were mistaken on this point. Maybe we shouldn't blame them. Scholarship of New Testament Greek and Old Testament Hebrew has come a long way since the KJV was translated. The KJV does emphasize the supernatural and all the places where "gave up the ghost" appears is evidence of this. You mentioned "the scholars." If you would pay attention to what they say you'd know that "gave up the ghost" isn't in the original manuscripts.
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mmksparbud
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Peter1000 said: ↑
We do not believe this, so again, stop putting things out there about us that is not true. God puts a living spirit into a created, but dead whale or worm or human. When the living, eternal spirit enters the body of the whale, worm, or human, that entities comes alive. When the spirit leaves the entity, it dies.
OK--further more---when the spirit leaves the entity--it dies---and so we again have a dead spirit up there for you say that the sprits go back to heaven and the body here dies. Just an awful lot of dead spirits up there. How can they function and talk and so forth when they have no life for they have no breath from God to keep them alive---again---doesn't add up. And you say the spirit is eternal which again is a definition of God--they existed before being born and exist after they die--but they are dead---yet eternal?????????
We do not believe this, so again, stop putting things out there about us that is not true. God puts a living spirit into a created, but dead whale or worm or human. When the living, eternal spirit enters the body of the whale, worm, or human, that entities comes alive. When the spirit leaves the entity, it dies.
OK--further more---when the spirit leaves the entity--it dies---and so we again have a dead spirit up there for you say that the sprits go back to heaven and the body here dies. Just an awful lot of dead spirits up there. How can they function and talk and so forth when they have no life for they have no breath from God to keep them alive---again---doesn't add up. And you say the spirit is eternal which again is a definition of God--they existed before being born and exist after they die--but they are dead---yet eternal?????????
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I asked the question to find out where you stood as to your beliefs of the Bible. I know there are those who do not believe in Hell. I find it interesting that people like to tell us what we believe. I believe it is more appropriate for members of The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints to state what we believe. As a member i know that we do indeed believe in Hell:
(Guide to the Scriptures | H Hell.:Entry)
HELL. See also Damnation; Death, Spiritual; Devil; Sons of Perdition
Latter-day revelation speaks of hell in at least two senses. First, it is the temporary abode in the spirit world for those who were disobedient in mortality. In this sense, hell has an end. The spirits there will be taught the gospel, and sometime following their repentance they will be resurrected to a degree of glory of which they are worthy. Those who will not repent, but are nevertheless not sons of perdition, will remain in hell throughout the Millennium. After these thousand years of torment, they will be resurrected to a telestial glory (D&C 76:81–86; 88:100–101).
Second, it is the permanent location of those who are not redeemed by the atonement of Jesus Christ. In this sense, hell is permanent. It is for those who are found "filthy still" (D&C 88:35, 102). This is the place where Satan, his angels, and the sons of perdition—those who have denied the Son after the Father has revealed him—will dwell eternally (D&C 76:43–46).
The scriptures sometimes refer to hell as outer darkness.
David's soul shall not be left in hell, Ps. 16:10 (Ps. 86:13). Go into hell, into that fire that never shall be quenched, Mark 9:43 (Mosiah 2:38). The rich man in hell lifts up his eyes, being in torment, Luke 16:22–23 (D&C 104:18). Death and hell delivered up the dead, Rev. 20:13. There is a place prepared, yea, even that awful hell, 1 Ne. 15:35. The will of the flesh giveth the spirit of the devil power to bring us down to hell, 2 Ne. 2:29. Christ prepared the way for our deliverance from death and hell, 2 Ne. 9:10–12. Those who remain filthy go into everlasting torment, 2 Ne. 9:16. The devil cheateth their souls and leadeth them away carefully down to hell, 2 Ne. 28:21. Jesus hath redeemed my soul from hell, 2 Ne. 33:6. Loose yourselves from the pains of hell, Jacob 3:11. To be taken captive by the devil and led by his will to destruction are the chains of hell, Alma 12:11. The wicked are cast into outer darkness until the time of their resurrection, Alma 40:13–14. The filthy would be more miserable to dwell with God than to dwell in hell, Morm. 9:4. The punishment which is given from my hand is endless punishment, D&C 19:10–12. Hell is a place prepared for the devil and his angels, D&C 29:37–38. Those who acknowledge God are delivered from death and the chains of hell, D&C 138:23.
There are three heavens:
(New Testament | 2 Corinthians 12:1 - 4)
1 IT is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.
2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knowethsuch an one caught up to the third heaven.
3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
So how will we be resurrected?:
(New Testament | 1 Corinthians 15:35 - 51)
35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
HeIsTheWay: "I believe it is more appropriate for members of The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints to state what we believe."
I quoted a Mormon in post #239. You ignored everything in the quote.
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He is the way
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My mistake. I did not realize that she is a member. That being said she later writes:
"And before I get Mormons telling me I’m wrong, there is one more sense of “hell” that Mormons believe in, a place that is called “Outer Darkness.” This is where the “sons of perdition” go**, those who have known Christ truly and have denied Him, as well as where Satan and his angels live who rejected Christ from the first. But within Mormonism, there is much debate about who might qualify for this place. I’ve heard both Cain and Judas are likely to be in Outer Darkness, but there is debate even there. There’s no agreed upon list of those who are going to Outer Darkness, a place that is simply described in Mormon theology by its lack of the presence of God, Christ, or even the Holy Spirit. Rather than be a place of fire and brimstone, it seems more likely this is a place of cold and darkness, and perhaps even silence."
I prefer the definition I posted as it is the definition given by the church leaders. As far as I can tell no two people believe exactly the same in all things. Jesus described Hell this way:
(New Testament | Luke 16:22 - 26)
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
We believe Jesus also said:
(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 19:15 - 20)
15 Therefore I command you to repent—repent, lest I smite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your sufferings be sore—how sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not.
16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;
17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;
18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—
19 Nevertheless, glory be to the Father, and I partook and finished my preparations unto the children of men.
20 Wherefore, I command you again to repent, lest I humble you with my almighty power; and that you confess your sins, lest you suffer these punishments of which I have spoken, of which in the smallest, yea, even in the least degree you have tasted at the time I withdrew my Spirit.
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BigDaddy4
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Interesting that you post this passage in support of your position on hell, but completely disregard it when it comes to getting a 2nd chance in the afterlife. It is literally in complete disagreement with your doctrine. Selective Scripture much??
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Peter1000
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I will say it just one more time. When the eternal living spirit enters the created mortal body, that created mortal body comes to life. When the eternal living spirit leaves that created mortal body, that created mortal body dies. The eternal living spirit continues to live, and will never die.
At the resurrection, the created mortal body and the eternal living spirit are united again, into a perfect, eternal, living body of flesh and bone and spirit. This will be your make-up throughout all eternity. A perfect resurrrected body of flesh and bone and spirit, just like Jesus had when he appeared to his apostles after his resurrection. Jesus was able to let them touch him, and he ate with them. Interesting huh?
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Peter1000
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I have emailed the KJV organization before. I cannot locate the email I used, but they did respond to me on another subject, so maybe try that before you let this subect go.
And it does not matter to me if all the scholars today agree on something. Times and thoughts and beliefs change over time and scholars sometimes become afraid of their peers and go along to maintain their status with the group. Especially if it is a minor issue like this one.
How do you answer this scripture:
Luke 8:54-56 King James Version (KJV)
54 And he put them all out, and took her by the hand, and called, saying, Maid, arise.
55 And her spirit came again, and she arose straightway: and he commanded to give her meat.
56 And her parents were astonished: but he charged them that they should tell no man what was done.
We believe that the "spirit" of a person, is another word for the "ghost" of a person. As in Holy Spirit, vs Holy Ghost, same entity.
As in this scripture of Jesus's last seconds before death:
Luke 23:46 King James Version (KJV)
46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.
This could have been less confusing if Luke would have said: Father, into they hands I commend by spirit: and having said thus, his spirit left his body, and the body lay lifeless on the cross.
So "spirit" or "ghost" it does not matter, because they are the same entity, according to the KJV bible.
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HeIsTheWay, thanks for your conciliatory attitude.
It is striking that you would refer to Doctrine and Covenants Section 19. I was just looking at it. Here is what is says about hell earlier in the same Section.
6 Nevertheless, it is not written
that there shall be no end to this
torment, but it is written endless
torment.
7 Again, it is written eternal damnation;
wherefore it is more express than
other scriptures, that it
might work upon the hearts of the
children of men, altogether for my
name’s glory.
D&C 19: 6-7
D&C denies that there is "no end" to torment in hell. Verse 7 implies that the Bible exaggerates the duration of punishment in the hope of bringing people to godliness. Verse 6 says the same thing with the words "it is written endless torment." I assume that D&C is Joseph Smith's view.
A few verses later:
10 For, behold, the mystery of
godliness, how great is it! For, behold,
I am endless, and the punishment
which is given from my hand is
endless punishment, for Endless
is my name Wherefore—
11 Eternal punishment is God’s
punishment.
12 Endless punishment is God’s
punishment.
D&C 19: 10-12
Verse 12 simply repeats verse 11 for emphasis except for replacing "Eternal" with "Endless." This statement, "Endless punishment is God's punishment" is widely interpreted in Mormon circles to mean that punishment is not endless. God is endless, so God's punishment is labeled as "Endless punishment" even though it actually can end in the Mormon scheme of things.
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Peter1000
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It seems like it is in complete disagreement of our doctrine. However, this parable was given by Jesus while he was living.Interesting that you post this passage in support of your position on hell, but completely disregard it when it comes to getting a 2nd chance in the afterlife. It is literally in complete disagreement with your doctrine. Selective Scripture much??
When Jesus died on the cross his spirit went first to a place called paradise. Remember Jesus promised the thief that day he would be with him in paradise. Well, he made good on that promise. Both the spirit of Jesus and the spirit of the thief went to paradise. This is where Lazarus went when he died and was metaphorically found in the bosom of Abraham.
Then the scriptures say that Jesus went to the spirit prison, and preached unto the spirits in prison. This is where the rich man went, when he died.
The 2 places in this spirit world were separated by a large gulf.
We believe when Jesus went to preach unto the spirits in prison, that he opened the door of prison and bridged the large gulf, so that those that believed him, and repented and humbled themselves before him and confessed his name were allowed to go over the bridge and out of that prison into paradise, to learn more of the love that Jesus has for them and to receive their saving ordinances by proxy.
So at one time the option for the rich man to mingle with Lazarus was not available, but since the death of Jesus it has been available to all true and humble believers.
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BigDaddy4
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So you make up scripture after the fact to suit your beliefs? I wouldn't recommend that. There is nothing in the Bible that suggests the gulf has been bridged. You are believing false doctrine.
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