Where does the universal religious tradition of building Shrines of worship come from?

Studyman · Dec 12, 2020

A few weeks back I was driving in Denver Colorado and I came on a street which had about 5 church buildings on it. They were all from different religious sects, they all looked similar in appearance, and from the outside there was really no way of telling what particular religion created them, unless you got close enough to read the sign.

As has been the way for me these almost 30 years now, I was suddenly flooded with the desire to find out when it was, or even if the Christ of the Bible directed men of His New Covenant Church to erect these "Shrines of Worship". As I started researching I found that this religious tradition was not just limited to religions which come in Christ's Name, but also Islam, Jews, Buddhism, etc. In fact, I found that most EVERY religion, even from the pagans in remote regions of this world, practice this religious tradition of erecting shrines or Temples of worship.

I posted a question to a member of this forum, but was asked to start a new thread for discussion. I'm not sure the appropriate spot to place this thread, so I put it on the Sabbath and the Law forum because these shrines of worship are generally said to be created for men to gather and worship on a day they deem as different for the others days, which mostly includes either Sunday or Saturday depending on the religious sect that erects them.

So there is the question. Who was it that directed the New Covenant believers to build literally tens of thousands of Temples and shrines of worship made of wood and stone, which all differ on doctrine, but not so much in appearance?

I look forward to the discussion.

Francis Drake · Dec 12, 2020

Nowhere does the New Covenant direct people to build shrines.
Church buildings are largely about command and control.

Tolworth John · Dec 12, 2020

Studyman said:
Who was it that directed the New Covenant believers to build literally tens of thousands of Temples and shrines of worship made of wood and stone, which all differ on doctrine, but not so much in appearance?

There is no command in the new testament to build places of worship.
The early church met in homes or occasionally in halls available for hire. Generally for the first three hundred years they met in people's homes.

When Christianity became the ' formal ' religion in the empire old pagan temples became available for use and were rededicated for use as Christian churches.

As for similarity in design most churches involve a large rectangular building with several smaller buildings stuck on the back.

Depending on the denomination they may copy some features like spires or decorative pillars.

Having one's own place of worship helps stablish one churches identify in an area, is useful in that the church is not risking being double booked and unable to meet or inappropriate posters being on display .

There many debate whether one should have one own place of worship.

Albion · Dec 12, 2020

Studyman said:
... I found that most EVERY religion, even from the pagans in remote regions of this world, practice this religious tradition of erecting shrines or Temples of worship.

Maybe the first thing that needs to be done is decide whether the question is about shrines...or about church buildings erected for the purpose of holding meetings.

Who was it that directed the New Covenant believers to build literally tens of thousands of Temples and shrines of worship made of wood and stone, which all differ on doctrine, but not so much in appearance?

What's so special about any organization with a unique agenda having its own place in which members can meet in order to engage in the purposes for which that organization exists??

tdidymas · Dec 12, 2020

Studyman said:
A few weeks back I was driving in Denver Colorado and I came on a street which had about 5 church buildings on it. They were all from different religious sects, they all looked similar in appearance, and from the outside there was really no way of telling what particular religion created them, unless you got close enough to read the sign.

As has been the way for me these almost 30 years now, I was suddenly flooded with the desire to find out when it was, or even if the Christ of the Bible directed men of His New Covenant Church to erect these "Shrines of Worship". As I started researching I found that this religious tradition was not just limited to religions which come in Christ's Name, but also Islam, Jews, Buddhism, etc. In fact, I found that most EVERY religion, even from the pagans in remote regions of this world, practice this religious tradition of erecting shrines or Temples of worship.

I posted a question to a member of this forum, but was asked to start a new thread for discussion. I'm not sure the appropriate spot to place this thread, so I put it on the Sabbath and the Law forum because these shrines of worship are generally said to be created for men to gather and worship on a day they deem as different for the others days, which mostly includes either Sunday or Saturday depending on the religious sect that erects them.

So there is the question. Who was it that directed the New Covenant believers to build literally tens of thousands of Temples and shrines of worship made of wood and stone, which all differ on doctrine, but not so much in appearance?

I look forward to the discussion.

It's all about demographics. Religious demographics involve not only relational aspects, but also belief aspects. And we of course know that belief aspects are strongly influenced by opinions. Since people are still sinful, there will always be desires and opinions that clash and cause disharmony, and therefore you get cliques. Birds of a feather flock together. You find this even in nature among animals and plants.

Kudos to the Catholic and Orthodox churches that tried to keep unity of organization, and are still trying (though it's hard to see if there is any real success at it). We do know from Jesus' and the apostles' teaching that not everyone who calls himself Christian is a real one. So, there is such a thing as a universal worldwide church that has real unity of faith. There is one of two attitudes we can take. Either believe that Christ has His universal invisible church in unity, or believe that the church is hopelessly divided. Pick one.
TD

Studyman · Dec 12, 2020

Thanks guys, certainly a good topic. I expect there to be some division here. I mean if I am a partaker of the practice of attending shrines or temples of worship, like the Jews were for instance, and if my parents also partook of the tradition, and their parents, it would be pretty normal for me to defend the tradition. And depending on how zealous I am for the tradition of my fathers, I might even REALLY DEFEND IT".

But I am hoping for some Scriptural support either for or against this most popular religious tradition. In this way, maybe an unbiased, honest examination of scriptures will ensue, and we can know, at least according to the Holy Scriptures, if this tradition is sanctioned by God, or if it's foundation is the mind of men. Not as a tool of judgment, but to grow in the knowledge of the Lord's Christ.

Paul's Words below come into my mind.

Rom. 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

I look forward to a continued discussion.

Albion · Dec 12, 2020

Again, and for the sake of clarity...

This is the definition of a shrine (according to Dictionary.com):

"a shelter, often of a stately or sumptuous character, enclosing the remains or relics of a saint or other holy person and forming an object of religious veneration and pilgrimage. any place or object hallowed by its history or associations: a historic shrine."

Is that what the question is asking? Most Christian denominations have none of these, and in the case of those that do, there are few of them when compared with ordinary church buildings.

tdidymas · Dec 12, 2020

Studyman said:
Thanks guys, certainly a good topic. I expect there to be some division here. I mean if I am a partaker of the practice of attending shrines or temples of worship, like the Jews were for instance, and if my parents also partook of the tradition, and their parents, it would be pretty normal for me to defend the tradition. And depending on how zealous I am for the tradition of my fathers, I might even REALLY DEFEND IT".

But I am hoping for some Scriptural support either for or against this most popular religious tradition. In this way, maybe an unbiased, honest examination of scriptures will ensue, and we can know, at least according to the Holy Scriptures, if this tradition is sanctioned by God, or if it's foundation is the mind of men. Not as a tool of judgment, but to grow in the knowledge of the Lord's Christ.

Paul's Words below come into my mind.

Rom. 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

I look forward to a continued discussion.

The apostle Paul talked about being satisfied where you are, and not looking for a different station in life. For example, if married, not looking to be single, if a slave, not looking for freedom, etc. So although the scripture doesn't either command or condemn the denominations we have today, I take it that we should not be looking to abolish them. It is true that all visible religious orgs are works of men, just as governments are. But it doesn't mean we are to look for something radically different. The point is to live where we find ourselves, and live it according to how Christ commanded us. If God works through the secular governments (Rom. 13), then He can certainly work through religious orgs.

So if my denomination teaches something I consider repugnant to the Bible, I will defect to another, until I find the one closest to my belief system. Or, there may be other reasons to switch churches, such as childrens programs, or groups that meet my special needs or ministry interests. So, it's ok to be specialized in ministry, specialized in denomination, or other reasons to belong to a certain church. We just have to avoid being overly specialized, in other words, unbalanced.

I can disagree with another doctrinally, or politically, and still fellowship with them based on what Christ has done. There is unifying power in the Christian testimony. We just have to be willing to express it.
TD

LoveGodsWord · Dec 13, 2020

Hi all,

Thought I would provide a different perspective from the scriptures.

Nowhere does it say in scripture anywhere that Church buildings cannot be made for meeting together to hear and read Gods Word and to worship God. The JEWS built places of worship (Synagogues) in every city to meet together on the Sabbath and read and hear the Word of God *Acts of the Apostles 15:21. According to the new testament scriptures it was the custom of both JESUS and Paul to go to these synagogue (places of worship) every Sabbath...

Luke 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, AS HIS CUSTOM WAS, he HE WENT INTO THE SYNAGOGUE ON THE SABBATH DAY, AND STOOD UP FOR TO READ.

Mark 6:2 [2], And when the sabbath day was come, HE BEGAN TO TEACH IN THE SYNAGOGUE: and many hearing him were astonished, saying, From where has this man these things? and what wisdom is this which is given to him, that even such mighty works are worked by his hands?

Luke 6:6-11 [6], AND IT CAME TO PASS ALSO ON ANOTHER SABBATH, THAT HE ENTERED THE SYNAGOGUE AND TAUGHT.

Acts of the Apostles 17:2 [2], AND PAUL, AS HIS CUSTOM WAS, WENT INTO THEM, AND REASONED WITH THEM FROM THE SCRIPTURES

Acts of the Apostles 13:14 [14], But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and WENT INTO THE SYNAGOGUE ON THE SABBATH DAY AND SAT DOWN.

Paul goes on to say that we should follow his example as he follows Christs examples as shown the scriptures above...

1 Corinthians 11:1 FOLLOW MY EXAMPLE AS I FOLLOW CHRIST.

...............

CONCLUSION: According to the scripture JESUS went to Church buildings (Synagogues) on the Sabbath. The scripture tells us that it was His CUSTOM or habit to do so. Paul followed the EXAMPLE of JESUS and His CUSTOM was also to go to the synagogue on the Sabbath and he tells us we should do the same. A Church building is simply a meeting place for believers to gather together to worship God and read and hear the Word of God (at least at the Church I go to).

................

SHRINES OF WORSHIP.

Let's get the definitions right...

Wikipedia
A shrine (is a holy or sacred site dedicated to a specific deity, ancestor, hero, martyr, saint, daemon, or similar figure of respect, wherein they are venerated or worshiped. Shrines often contain idols, relics, or other such objects associated with the figure being venerated. A shrine at which votive offerings are made is called an altar.

Encyclopedia Britannica
Normally these are natural shrines, such as sacred groves, or temples and sanctuaries in which gods or spirits live or have manifested themselves or in which their statues, symbols, holy objects, or relics are enshrined. Holy places, such as Mecca and the Kaʿbah in Islam or the Buddhist stupas are centers of pilgrimages and veneration because of their religious significance and the religious values that they symbolize and not necessarily because miracles are wrought there, yet popular devotion associates miracles with many of these holy sites.

................

There is a list of Religious Shrines here and of course we would stay clear of such places of idol worship.

................

CONCLUSION: There is nothing wrong with believers gathering together in a Church building to read and hear the Word of God. This was the custom of both JESUS and Paul who are examples to Christians everywhere that we as believers should follow according to the scriptures in the new testament. We should never go to places that have shrines for idol worship.

Hope this is helpful

Studyman · Dec 13, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
Hi all,

Thought I would provide a different perspective from the scriptures.

Nowhere does it say in scripture anywhere that Church buildings cannot be made for meeting together to hear and read Gods Word and to worship God. The JEWS built places of worship (Synagogues) in every city to meet together on the Sabbath and read and hear the Word of God *Acts of the Apostles 15:21. According to the new testament scriptures it was the custom of both JESUS and Paul to go to these synagogue (places of worship) every Sabbath...

Thank you for your contribution LGW. I can see you are quite passionate for this religious tradition.

Like I said, it is perfectly normal for a man who practices a religious tradition, to defend the tradition. If they thought is was wrong, they wouldn't do it. The Catholic church that many rail on constantly, are filled with people who practice religious traditions some believe the Scriptures define as from man and not from God. And they defend their tradition, just as you defend yours, as doing nothing wrong. I made it clear that this thread is posted to determine where the tradition came from. That's all.

Rom. 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

I was hoping for an unbiased examination of Scriptures which might show where this religious tradition of Building Temples of worship came from.

You have provided some scriptures, thank you, but only ones that you can use to defend the religious practice. Catholic's, etc., would use the same scripture as you do to defend the religious tradition.

It is true it was the Jews tradition was to build shrines of worship or Temples made of wood and stone, and that is where they placed the Book of the Law to be read from. There was no other place to hear Moses, and discuss scripture with the Scribes and Pharisees except in the synagogue. This is a true statement that seems prudent to include in this discussion.

So then, you are correctly pointing out the Tradition of the Jews. But I already know of their tradition of building Temples made of Wood and Stone for their God. I was hoping for some scripture which might shed light on the origin of such a tradition.

I found this;

2 Sam. 7:1 And it came to pass, when the king sat in his house, and the LORD had given him rest round about from all his enemies;

2 That the king said unto Nathan the prophet, See now, I dwell in an house of cedar, but the ark of God dwelleth within curtains. 5 Go and tell my servant David, Thus saith the LORD, Shalt thou build me an house for me to dwell in? 6 Whereas I have not dwelt in any house since the time that I brought up the children of Israel out of Egypt, even to this day, but have walked in a tent and in a tabernacle. 7 In all the places wherein I have walked with all the children of Israel spake I a word with any of the tribes of Israel, whom I commanded to feed my people Israel, saying, Why build ye not me an house of cedar?

These too seem like relevant Scriptures to examine in the discussion of the origin of Temples of Worship.

God said David's Seed would build HIM a House. I presume HE meant Jesus, correct me if you have scriptural evidence that this is not true.

2 Sam. 7:12 And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever. 14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men: 15 But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee. 16 And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever.

Surely you would agree that these Scriptures are also relevant to the topic at hand, and worthy of examination.

Luke 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, AS HIS CUSTOM WAS, he HE WENT INTO THE SYNAGOGUE ON THE SABBATH DAY, AND STOOD UP FOR TO READ.

Mark 6:2 [2], And when the sabbath day was come, HE BEGAN TO TEACH IN THE SYNAGOGUE: and many hearing him were astonished, saying, From where has this man these things? and what wisdom is this which is given to him, that even such mighty works are worked by his hands?

Luke 6:6-11 [6], AND IT CAME TO PASS ALSO ON ANOTHER SABBATH, THAT HE ENTERED THE SYNAGOGUE AND TAUGHT.

Acts of the Apostles 17:2 [2], AND PAUL, AS HIS CUSTOM WAS, WENT INTO THEM, AND REASONED WITH THEM FROM THE SCRIPTURES

Acts of the Apostles 13:14 [14], But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and WENT INTO THE SYNAGOGUE ON THE SABBATH DAY AND SAT DOWN.

Paul goes on to say that we should follow his example as he follows Christs examples as shown the scriptures above...

1 Corinthians 11:1 FOLLOW MY EXAMPLE AS I FOLLOW CHRIST.

Yes, these are excellent scriptures to show the religious tradition of the Jews to build Temples of wood and stone for worship, and the Apostles tradition of reasoning with them in their own Temples. These are great scriptures to also include for examination to determine where the religious tradition of various religions building Temples of worship in every city in this world. thanks for bringing them up for discussion.

But I don't agree with your last statement and your use of 1. Cor. 11:1, to defend the religious tradition of building Temples to God made of wood and stone.

I don't believe Paul is telling us to go find one of these temples, and join their church, or build a Temple of Worship to start a Church.

17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,

This verse as well, might be prudent to include in examining Paul's teaching on following the Tradition of the Jews.

I am looking forward to folks on this forum providing Scriptures either for or against such a tradition "that these deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God." Or not.

CONCLUSION: According to the scripture JESUS went to Church buildings (Synagogues) on the Sabbath. The scripture tells us that it was His CUSTOM or habit to do so. Paul followed the EXAMPLE of JESUS and His CUSTOM was also to go to the synagogue on the Sabbath and he tells us we should do the same.

LGW, you follow the examples of Jesus and Paul when you go the Mainstream Church members of your time and reason with them in the Scriptures about the Sabbath. That is your tradition, certainly regarding the Catholics. Just as Paul and Jesus reasoned with the mainstream preachers of their time.

But You don't have to go to the Catholic Temple to reason with them regarding Scriptures because you have the Scriptures in your own hands. You have the "SEAT of MOSES" in your own home, your own hands. Paul did not, they only existed in the Temples of Wood and Stone that the Jews erected. If the Catholic Temple was the only place the Bible existed, and you wanted to reason with them regarding scriptures, then you would also have to go into their temple to reason with them. This is a prudent point I think, and very relevant to the discussion on hand.

Matt. 6:5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

Also a prudent scripture to examine when speaking to the religious traditions of building Temples of Worship.

There are some mention in the Law and Prophets about men, called by God's Name, building Temples in every street corner. (Ez. 16:24,25)

Proverbs 7 seems to also shed Light on the religious practice as well.

Who do the Religions of this world build their Temples, and "Beacons of Light" for?

Do they not all compete for members?

Are these Temples of Wood and stone not erected to entice men to join them. To grow the religious business. Isn't the size or numbers of these Temples used to judge the greatness of the religious franchise itself? Is that God's Way, for His Strength to be determined by how successful a certain religious franchise is?

Shall we not also acknowledge and discuss this phenomenon as well?
I appreciate your input, but I'm not sure how you can conclude something scriptural when you omit the entire Law and Prophets from your conclusion, as well as most of the NT scriptures relevant to this thread. In my view, you have not provided sufficient Scriptural evidence to "Conclude" anything, other than your passion for the tradition. But you have added to the discussion, for that I thank you.

A Church building is simply a meeting place for believers to gather together to worship God and read and hear the Word of God (at least at the Church I go to).

Yes, I suppose just about every Jew, Every Catholic, every Muslim would agree with you on that point.

But although it was the practice of Jesus and His Apostles to go to the Local Temple of the cities where they were erected, to reason with them in the Scriptures they alone had access to, I don't believe the actual Scriptures promote your religious philosophy that it was Jesus' Tradition of "Gathering" for worship in some man made Temple.

Matt. 5:1 And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him: 2 And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,

Matt. 12:1 At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn, and to eat.

2 But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.

When Jesus was baptized HE didn't go the Shrines or Temples of Worship in the Religions HE was born into, according to the Traditions of the Jews, and all religions today. And the Levite that Baptized Jesus did not practice the religious Tradition gathering for worship in the Shrines or Temples of Worship built by the Jews.

The examination of these Scriptures also seem prudent to explore in the quest to answer where the religious tradition of building Temples of Wood and stone comes from.

Granted, it was the Jews Tradition to gather on the Sabbath in a Temple of Worship they created. But Jesus was perfectly content taking walks of Fellowship with His Followers. This would also be more Scripture which would be beneficial and prudent in the discussion of the thread I posted, don't you think?

I had hoped for the same voracity and scriptural Review and examination you require and put forth in your continued rebuke and correction of the religious traditions of the Catholic church.

I guess it's only normal not to use the same voracity when it pertains to your own religious traditions.

Thanks for your contributions just the same. They are helpful.

................

SHRINES OF WORSHIP.

Let's get the definitions right...

Wikipedia
A shrine (is a holy or sacred site dedicated to a specific deity, ancestor, hero, martyr, saint, daemon, or similar figure of respect, wherein they are venerated or worshiped. Shrines often (not always)contain idols, relics, or other such objects associated with the figure being venerated. A shrine at which votive offerings are made is called an altar.

There is a list of Religious Shrines here and of course we would stay clear of such places of idol worship.

One of these Shrines of Worship is Catholic, one is Mormon and one is SDA.

A shrine (is a holy or sacred site dedicated to a specific deity, ancestor, hero, martyr, saint, daemon, or similar figure of respect, wherein they (Specific Deity) are venerated or worshiped.

From a person who is not a contributing member to any of these 3 Religious franchises, you can see how it is nearly impossible to tell them apart. They are all three the same, built for the same purpose, built according to the same religious tradition, build to gather for worship of the same certain Deity. They are the very definition of "Shrines of Worship". Thanks for the detailed definition.

I'm sure I would feel differently if I were Catholic, or SDA. I would also probably be filled with the desire to defend the tradition. And of course you are free to do so. But the topic of this thread is to search the scriptures to find the origin of this tradition.

We both share a perspective that is prudent and beneficial to the topic of this thread. Where do the Religious Tradition to build these Great Shrines of Worship come from? It's only Just and honest to openly examine both perspectives. Thank you for yours.

CONCLUSION: There is nothing wrong with believers gathering together in a Church building to read and hear the Word of God. This was the custom of both JESUS and Paul who are examples to Christians everywhere that we as believers should follow according to the scriptures in the new testament. We should never go to places that have shrines for idol worship.

Hope this is helpful

But to be honest, according to scriptures, Jesus never advocated for the creation or erection of Shrines or Temples of worship. He was born into a world where this tradition was prevalent. The same is true with Paul. Although He went to Temples and addressed Alters built by religious men in the land's he taught in, He never advocated for the construction of such Temples or Shrines. Not once. At least I can't find any scriptural reference that he did. And you have provided none either.

He did teach others " God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; 25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;

You may be right regarding whether such a tradition is judged by God as wrong. I am not making a Judgment here. It is simply my desire to bring the religious tradition up for discussion as I find it fascinating that probably the most popular religious tradition in the World today, that is the erecting of Temples and Shrines of Worship, practiced by "EVERY RELIGION" OF THIS WORLD, was not sanctioned, practiced or directed by Jesus, nor by any of His New Covenant Disciples.

At least I can find no evidence of such direction. That is why I posted, to shine the Light of Christ on this popular religious tradition. I look forward to more contributions to this discussion.

Thanks for your input LGW. You have provided the perspective of a follower of this religious tradition. I appreciate your input.

LoveGodsWord · Dec 13, 2020

Studyman said:
Thank you for your contribution LGW. I can see you are quite passionate for this religious tradition.

Like I said, it is perfectly normal for a man who practices a religious tradition, to defend the tradition. If they thought is was wrong, they wouldn't do it. The Catholic church that many rail on constantly, are filled with people who practice religious traditions some believe the Scriptures define as from man and not from God. And they defend their tradition, just as you defend yours, as doing nothing wrong. I made it clear that this thread is posted to determine where the tradition came from. That's all.

Rom. 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

I was hoping for an unbiased examination of Scriptures which might show where this religious tradition of Building Temples of worship came from.

You have provided some scriptures, thank you, but only ones that you can use to defend the religious practice. Catholic's, etc., would use the same scripture as you do to defend the religious tradition.

It is true it was the Jews tradition was to build shrines of worship or Temples made of wood and stone, and that is where they placed the Book of the Law to be read from. There was no other place to hear Moses, and discuss scripture with the Scribes and Pharisees except in the synagogue. This is a true statement that seems prudent to include in this discussion.

So then, you are correctly pointing out the Tradition of the Jews. But I already know of their tradition of building Temples made of Wood and Stone for their God. I was hoping for some scripture which might shed light on the origin of such a tradition.

I found this;

2 Sam. 7:1 And it came to pass, when the king sat in his house, and the LORD had given him rest round about from all his enemies;

2 That the king said unto Nathan the prophet, See now, I dwell in an house of cedar, but the ark of God dwelleth within curtains. 5 Go and tell my servant David, Thus saith the LORD, Shalt thou build me an house for me to dwell in? 6 Whereas I have not dwelt in any house since the time that I brought up the children of Israel out of Egypt, even to this day, but have walked in a tent and in a tabernacle. 7 In all the places wherein I have walked with all the children of Israel spake I a word with any of the tribes of Israel, whom I commanded to feed my people Israel, saying, Why build ye not me an house of cedar?

These too seem like relevant Scriptures to examine in the discussion of the origin of Temples of Worship.

God said David's Seed would build HIM a House. I presume HE meant Jesus, correct me if you have scriptural evidence that this is not true.

2 Sam. 7:12 And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever. 14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men: 15 But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee. 16 And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever.

Surely you would agree that these Scriptures are also relevant to the topic at hand, and worthy of examination.

Yes, these are excellent scriptures to show the religious tradition of the Jews to build Temples of wood and stone for worship, and the Apostles tradition of reasoning with them in their own Temples. These are great scriptures to also include for examination to determine where the religious tradition of various religions building Temples of worship in every city in this world. thanks for bringing them up for discussion.

But I don't agree with your last statement and your use of 1. Cor. 11:1, to defend the religious tradition of building Temples to God made of wood and stone.

I don't believe Paul is telling us to go find one of these temples, and join their church, or build a Temple of Worship to start a Church.

17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,

This verse as well, might be prudent to include in examining Paul's teaching on following the Tradition of the Jews.

I am looking forward to folks on this forum providing Scriptures either for or against such a tradition "that these deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God." Or not.

LGW, you follow the examples of Jesus and Paul when you go the Mainstream Church members of your time and reason with them in the Scriptures about the Sabbath. That is your tradition, certainly regarding the Catholics. Just as Paul and Jesus reasoned with the mainstream preachers of their time.

But You don't have to go to the Catholic Temple to reason with them regarding Scriptures because you have the Scriptures in your own hands. You have the "SEAT of MOSES" in your own home, your own hands. Paul did not, they only existed in the Temples of Wood and Stone that the Jews erected. If the Catholic Temple was the only place the Bible existed, and you wanted to reason with them regarding scriptures, then you would also have to go into their temple to reason with them. This is a prudent point I think, and very relevant to the discussion on hand.

Matt. 6:5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

Also a prudent scripture to examine when speaking to the religious traditions of building Temples of Worship.

There are some mention in the Law and Prophets about men, called by God's Name, building Temples in every street corner. (Ez. 16:24,25)

Proverbs 7 seems to also shed Light on the religious practice as well.

Who do the Religions of this world build their Temples, and "Beacons of Light" for?

Do they not all compete for members?

Are these Temples of Wood and stone not erected to entice men to join them. To grow the religious business. Isn't the size or numbers of these Temples used to judge the greatness of the religious franchise itself? Is that God's Way, for His Strength to be determined by how successful a certain religious franchise is?

Shall we not also acknowledge and discuss this phenomenon as well?
I appreciate your input, but I'm not sure how you can conclude something scriptural when you omit the entire Law and Prophets from your conclusion, as well as most of the NT scriptures relevant to this thread. In my view, you have not provided sufficient Scriptural evidence to "Conclude" anything, other than your passion for the tradition. But you have added to the discussion, for that I thank you.

Yes, I suppose just about every Jew, Every Catholic, every Muslim would agree with you on that point.

But although it was the practice of Jesus and His Apostles to go to the Local Temple of the cities where they were erected, to reason with them in the Scriptures they alone had access to, I don't believe the actual Scriptures promote your religious philosophy that it was Jesus' Tradition of "Gathering" for worship in some man made Temple.

Matt. 5:1 And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him: 2 And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,

Matt. 12:1 At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn, and to eat.

2 But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.

When Jesus was baptized HE didn't go the Shrines or Temples of Worship in the Religions HE was born into, according to the Traditions of the Jews, and all religions today. And the Levite that Baptized Jesus did not practice the religious Tradition gathering for worship in the Shrines or Temples of Worship built by the Jews.

The examination of these Scriptures also seem prudent to explore in the quest to answer where the religious tradition of building Temples of Wood and stone comes from.

Granted, it was the Jews Tradition to gather on the Sabbath in a Temple of Worship they created. But Jesus was perfectly content taking walks of Fellowship with His Followers. This would also be more Scripture which would be beneficial and prudent in the discussion of the thread I posted, don't you think?

I had hoped for the same voracity and scriptural Review and examination you require and put forth in your continued rebuke and correction of the religious traditions of the Catholic church.

I guess it's only normal not to use the same voracity when it pertains to your own religious traditions.

Thanks for your contributions just the same. They are helpful.

................

View attachment 290567 View attachment 290568 View attachment 290569

One of these Shrines of Worship is Catholic, one is Mormon and one is SDA.

A shrine (is a holy or sacred site dedicated to a specific deity, ancestor, hero, martyr, saint, daemon, or similar figure of respect, wherein they (Specific Deity) are venerated or worshiped.

From a person who is not a contributing member to any of these 3 Religious franchises, you can see how it is nearly impossible to tell them apart. They are all three the same, built for the same purpose, built according to the same religious tradition, build to gather for worship of the same certain Deity. They are the very definition of "Shrines of Worship". Thanks for the detailed definition.

I'm sure I would feel differently if I were Catholic, or SDA. I would also probably be filled with the desire to defend the tradition. And of course you are free to do so. But the topic of this thread is to search the scriptures to find the origin of this tradition.

We both share a perspective that is prudent and beneficial to the topic of this thread. Where do the Religious Tradition to build these Great Shrines of Worship come from? It's only Just and honest to openly examine both perspectives. Thank you for yours.

But to be honest, according to scriptures, Jesus never advocated for the creation or erection of Shrines or Temples of worship. He was born into a world where this tradition was prevalent. The same is true with Paul. Although He went to Temples and addressed Alters built by religious men in the land's he taught in, He never advocated for the construction of such Temples or Shrines. Not once. At least I can't find any scriptural reference that he did. And you have provided none either.

He did teach others " God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; 25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;

You may be right regarding whether such a tradition is judged by God as wrong. I am not making a Judgment here. It is simply my desire to bring the religious tradition up for discussion as I find it fascinating that probably the most popular religious tradition in the World today, that is the erecting of Temples and Shrines of Worship, practiced by "EVERY RELIGION" OF THIS WORLD, was not sanctioned, practiced or directed by Jesus, nor by any of His New Covenant Disciples.

At least I can find no evidence of such direction. That is why I posted, to shine the Light of Christ on this popular religious tradition. I look forward to more contributions to this discussion.

Thanks for your input LGW. You have provided the perspective of a follower of this religious tradition. I appreciate your input.

As shown through the scriptures already provided in the previous post, it is not a religious tradition but a biblical one to go to church to read and hear the Word of God. This is based on the scriptures from the Word of God, that JESUS followed as well as Paul who are our examples according to *1 Corinthians 11:1 and shown in Acts of the Apostles 15:21 ; Luke 4:16; Mark 6:2; Luke 6:6-11; Acts of the Apostles 17:2 ; Acts of the Apostles 13:14 already. These of course are God's Word (not mine) and it is JESUS not me whose example we are to follow as told in 1 Corinthians 11:1. Of course you are free to believe as you wish. There is no scripture that says Church buildings cannot be made for meeting together on God's Sabbath to read and hear Gods Word and pray and give thanks to God. This is what JESUS and Paul did who are our examples we are told to follow in the scriptures. The old testament scriptures you have provided above have nothing to do with this conversation and your interpretation of these old testament scriptures makes JESUS and Paul hypocrites, while attending the Church's (synagogues) in their day as shown through the scriptures above while telling us to follow their examples. It might be helpful to the conversation to get your definition of what a shrine is (idol worship) correct. No one makes Church buildings for God to live in today, and the Temple in Jerusalem is not the same as a local synagogue (church) and had a different purpose in the old covenant, so what your posting here is not truthful. I think I have shared all that is needed to be shared here from the scriptures. Thanks for the conversation

tdidymas · Dec 13, 2020

Studyman said:
Thank you for your contribution LGW... (truncated)

After writing your lengthy response, I now know I completely misunderstood your OP, yet I might still be misunderstanding it, so I need to ask a few questions:

1. You are asking for scriptural support specifically for wood and stone buildings?

2. Do you acknowledge that God commanded Moses to build a place of worship patterned after what Moses saw in visions (Exodus)?

3. Are you acknowledging above in your quote of 2 Sam. 7 that a wood and stone building was erected to replace the tent format derived from Moses' tabernacle?

I hope your answers to these questions will tell me I am understanding you.
TD

Studyman · Dec 13, 2020

tdidymas said:
After writing your lengthy response, I now know I completely misunderstood your OP, yet I might still be misunderstanding it, so I need to ask a few questions:

1. You are asking for scriptural support specifically for wood and stone buildings?

I am looking for any scripture or directive from God to support the popular religious tradition of the land I was born into, of building Shrines and Temples of Worship.

2. Do you acknowledge that God commanded Moses to build a place of worship patterned after what Moses saw in visions (Exodus)?

I acknowledge the building of the Tabernacle which was to follow Israel on their Journey to a Land they did not know. I have found to indication from Scripture that the Tabernacle God directed Moses to build, was built as a place of Worship. In Fact, it is my understanding that only the Levite Priest could even enter the Tabernacle God directed Moses to build.

If you can find Scriptures which indicate this Tabernacle was Created as a place of Worship, place bring them forward. I have found no such directive in the bible.

3. Are you acknowledging above in your quote of 2 Sam. 7 that a wood and stone building was erected to replace the tent format derived from Moses' tabernacle?

Great Question, lets let the Scriptures answer it for us.

2 Sam. 7:1 And it came to pass, when the king sat in his house, and the LORD had given him rest round about from all his enemies;

2 That the king said unto Nathan the prophet, See now, I dwell in an house of cedar, but the ark of God dwelleth within curtains.

3 And Nathan said to the king, Go, do all that is in thine heart; for the LORD is with thee.

4 And it came to pass that night, that the word of the LORD came unto Nathan, saying,

5 Go and tell my servant David, Thus saith the LORD, Shalt thou build me an house for me to dwell in?

6 Whereas I have not dwelt in any house since the time that I brought up the children of Israel out of Egypt, even to this day, but have walked in a tent and in a tabernacle.

7 In all the places wherein I have walked with all the children of Israel spake I a word with any of the tribes of Israel, whom I commanded to feed my people Israel, saying, Why build ye not me an house of cedar?
8: Now therefore so shalt thou say unto my servant David, Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I took thee from the sheepcote, from following the sheep, to be ruler over my people, over Israel:

9 And I was with thee whithersoever thou wentest, and have cut off all thine enemies out of thy sight, and have made thee a great name, like unto the name of the great men that are in the earth.

10 Moreover I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more; neither shall the children of wickedness afflict them any more, as beforetime,

11 And as since the time that I commanded judges to be over my people Israel, and have caused thee to rest from all thine enemies. Also the LORD telleth thee that he will make thee an house.

12 And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.

13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.

14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:

15 But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee.

16 And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever.

17 According to all these words, and according to all this vision, so did Nathan speak unto David.

So Solomon David's Son, built a Great Temple unto God. And God came to Solomon and spoke to him.

1 Kings 9:And it came to pass, when Solomon had finished the building of the house of the LORD, and the king's house, and all Solomon's desire which he was pleased to do,

2 That the LORD appeared to Solomon the second time, as he had appeared unto him at Gibeon.

3 And the LORD said unto him, I have heard thy prayer and thy supplication, that thou hast made before me: I have hallowed this house, which thou hast built, to put my name there for ever; and mine eyes and mine heart shall be there perpetually.

4 And if thou wilt walk before me, as David thy father walked, in integrity of heart, and in uprightness, to do according to all that I have commanded thee, and wilt keep my statutes and my judgments:

5 Then I will establish the throne of thy kingdom upon Israel for ever, as I promised to David thy father, saying, There shall not fail thee a man upon the throne of Israel.

6 But if ye shall at all turn from following me, ye or your children, and will not keep my commandments and my statutes which I have set before you, but go and serve other gods, and worship them:

7 Then will I cut off Israel out of the land which I have given them; and this house, which I have hallowed for my name, will I cast out of my sight; and Israel shall be a proverb and a byword among all people:

8 And at this house, which is high, every one that passeth by it shall be astonished, and shall hiss; and they shall say, Why hath the LORD done thus unto this land, and to this house?

9 And they shall answer, Because they forsook the LORD their God, who brought forth their fathers out of the land of Egypt, and have taken hold upon other gods, and have worshipped them, and served them: therefore hath the LORD brought upon them all this evil.

So what did Solomon so?

1 Kings 11:4 For it came to pass, when Solomon was old, that his wives turned away his heart after other gods: and his heart was not perfect with the LORD his God, as was the heart of David his father.

5 For Solomon went after Ashtoreth the goddess of the Zidonians, and after Milcom the abomination of the Ammonites.

6 And Solomon did evil in the sight of the LORD, and went not fully after the LORD, as did David his father.

7 Then did Solomon build an high place for Chemosh, the abomination of Moab, in the hill that is before Jerusalem, and for Molech, the abomination of the children of Ammon.

8 And likewise did he for all his strange wives, which burnt incense and sacrificed unto their gods.

9 And the LORD was angry with Solomon, because his heart was turned from the LORD God of Israel, which had appeared unto him twice,

10 And had commanded him concerning this thing, that he should not go after other gods: but he kept not that which the LORD commanded.

11 Wherefore the LORD said unto Solomon, Forasmuch as this is done of thee, and thou hast not kept my covenant and my statutes, which I have commanded thee, I will surely rend the kingdom from thee, and will give it to thy servant.

So then God cast the only Temple made of Wood and Stone that He sanctioned in the entire Bible, "out of His Sight".

So then, who was the "SEED" of David that was going to build a house of God that is established forever, who was the Seed that was faithful to God His Whole life that Gods Promised David?

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Is this not the "SEED" of David and the house HE prepares for us as promised?

I hope your answers to these questions will tell me I am understanding you.
TD

Let me know if you understand my answers to your questions. Thanks for the reply.

tdidymas · Dec 14, 2020

Studyman said:
I am looking for any scripture or directive from God to support the popular religious tradition of the land I was born into, of building Shrines and Temples of Worship.

I acknowledge the building of the Tabernacle which was to follow Israel on their Journey to a Land they did not know. I have found to indication from Scripture that the Tabernacle God directed Moses to build, was built as a place of Worship. In Fact, it is my understanding that only the Levite Priest could even enter the Tabernacle God directed Moses to build.

If you can find Scriptures which indicate this Tabernacle was Created as a place of Worship, place bring them forward. I have found no such directive in the bible.

Great Question, lets let the Scriptures answer it for us.

2 Sam. 7:1 And it came to pass, when the king sat in his house, and the LORD had given him rest round about from all his enemies;

2 That the king said unto Nathan the prophet, See now, I dwell in an house of cedar, but the ark of God dwelleth within curtains.

3 And Nathan said to the king, Go, do all that is in thine heart; for the LORD is with thee.

4 And it came to pass that night, that the word of the LORD came unto Nathan, saying,

5 Go and tell my servant David, Thus saith the LORD, Shalt thou build me an house for me to dwell in?

6 Whereas I have not dwelt in any house since the time that I brought up the children of Israel out of Egypt, even to this day, but have walked in a tent and in a tabernacle.

7 In all the places wherein I have walked with all the children of Israel spake I a word with any of the tribes of Israel, whom I commanded to feed my people Israel, saying, Why build ye not me an house of cedar?
8: Now therefore so shalt thou say unto my servant David, Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I took thee from the sheepcote, from following the sheep, to be ruler over my people, over Israel:

9 And I was with thee whithersoever thou wentest, and have cut off all thine enemies out of thy sight, and have made thee a great name, like unto the name of the great men that are in the earth.

10 Moreover I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more; neither shall the children of wickedness afflict them any more, as beforetime,

11 And as since the time that I commanded judges to be over my people Israel, and have caused thee to rest from all thine enemies. Also the LORD telleth thee that he will make thee an house.

12 And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.

13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.

14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:

15 But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee.

16 And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever.

17 According to all these words, and according to all this vision, so did Nathan speak unto David.

So Solomon David's Son, built a Great Temple unto God. And God came to Solomon and spoke to him.

1 Kings 9:And it came to pass, when Solomon had finished the building of the house of the LORD, and the king's house, and all Solomon's desire which he was pleased to do,

2 That the LORD appeared to Solomon the second time, as he had appeared unto him at Gibeon.

3 And the LORD said unto him, I have heard thy prayer and thy supplication, that thou hast made before me: I have hallowed this house, which thou hast built, to put my name there for ever; and mine eyes and mine heart shall be there perpetually.

4 And if thou wilt walk before me, as David thy father walked, in integrity of heart, and in uprightness, to do according to all that I have commanded thee, and wilt keep my statutes and my judgments:

5 Then I will establish the throne of thy kingdom upon Israel for ever, as I promised to David thy father, saying, There shall not fail thee a man upon the throne of Israel.

6 But if ye shall at all turn from following me, ye or your children, and will not keep my commandments and my statutes which I have set before you, but go and serve other gods, and worship them:

7 Then will I cut off Israel out of the land which I have given them; and this house, which I have hallowed for my name, will I cast out of my sight; and Israel shall be a proverb and a byword among all people:

8 And at this house, which is high, every one that passeth by it shall be astonished, and shall hiss; and they shall say, Why hath the LORD done thus unto this land, and to this house?

9 And they shall answer, Because they forsook the LORD their God, who brought forth their fathers out of the land of Egypt, and have taken hold upon other gods, and have worshipped them, and served them: therefore hath the LORD brought upon them all this evil.

So what did Solomon so?

1 Kings 11:4 For it came to pass, when Solomon was old, that his wives turned away his heart after other gods: and his heart was not perfect with the LORD his God, as was the heart of David his father.

5 For Solomon went after Ashtoreth the goddess of the Zidonians, and after Milcom the abomination of the Ammonites.

6 And Solomon did evil in the sight of the LORD, and went not fully after the LORD, as did David his father.

7 Then did Solomon build an high place for Chemosh, the abomination of Moab, in the hill that is before Jerusalem, and for Molech, the abomination of the children of Ammon.

8 And likewise did he for all his strange wives, which burnt incense and sacrificed unto their gods.

9 And the LORD was angry with Solomon, because his heart was turned from the LORD God of Israel, which had appeared unto him twice,

10 And had commanded him concerning this thing, that he should not go after other gods: but he kept not that which the LORD commanded.

11 Wherefore the LORD said unto Solomon, Forasmuch as this is done of thee, and thou hast not kept my covenant and my statutes, which I have commanded thee, I will surely rend the kingdom from thee, and will give it to thy servant.

So then God cast the only Temple made of Wood and Stone that He sanctioned in the entire Bible, "out of His Sight".

So then, who was the "SEED" of David that was going to build a house of God that is established forever, who was the Seed that was faithful to God His Whole life that Gods Promised David?

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Is this not the "SEED" of David and the house HE prepares for us as promised?

Let me know if you understand my answers to your questions. Thanks for the reply.

Well, it begs the question: are you trying to make a point that God should be worshipped everywhere and at all times by all people, and that worship of God is not to be limited to a building in which people meet once or twice a week?

If that's your point, then I agree. But the place of assembly is necessary for a church to function, whether it be in homes (as in the book of Acts), or elsewhere, since the NT says that we should assemble ourselves together. Assembly is necessary for people to help each other, as in 1 Corinthians, but it doesn't say that worship is to be limited to that location.

I'm just trying to get to where you're coming from, and how you define worship.
TD

Studyman · Dec 14, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
As shown through the scriptures already provided in the previous post, it is not a religious tradition but a biblical one to go to church to read and hear the Word of God.

You might have some truth in this declaration if we were in the Old Covenant. But we aren't.

Jer. 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

In the Old Covenant the Oracles of God were in the exclusive custody of the Levite Priest, according the Levitical Priesthood. But the Christ Promised of a time when this is no longer the case.

Hebrews 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Of course you don't believe this, as you are still advocating for the construction of Temples of Worship in order to "Hear the Word of God".

In Jesus time, the "Seat of Moses" was located exclusively in the Temple of Worship built by the Jews. That is why they went there. Today, the Seat of Moses is in my home, in my hands as the Christ Promised. This is why neither Jesus, nor Paul ever once advocated, implied, suggested or otherwise instructed any Gentile, Jew or anyone to go into the world and create Temples or Shrines of Worship to, as you preach, "Hear the Word of God".

And yet, the greatest religious tradition on this planet, is to create a religious business, which can only succeed if they build Temples of Worship in order to further their doctrines, depending on the religious franchise who funds the building..

Where does this tradition come from? You have provided nothing to show this religious practice originated in the Word of God. But you have shown your passion for the religious tradition. The perspective and defense tactics you use are very enlightening.

Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, [URL='https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Luke-4-19/']19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.[/URL]

Where is the directive to Build Temples of wood and stone for worship?

Mark 6:2 And when the sabbath day was come, he began to teach in the synagogue: and many hearing him were astonished, saying, From whence hath this man these things? and what wisdom is this which is given unto him, that even such mighty works are wrought by his hands?

Where else would HE go to teach people about God in that time. It was Moses's Seat. Where is Moses's Seat now?

Luke 6:2 And when the sabbath day was come, he began to teach in the synagogue: and many hearing him were astonished, saying, From whence hath this man these things? and what wisdom is this which is given unto him, that even such mighty works are wrought by his hands?

Again, this was the only God of Abraham preaching people on the planet, who had exclusive ownership of the Book of the Law. Where else would Jesus Go to expose the religions of that time?

Where is the Seat of Moses now? Are we not fully into the New Covenant which was becoming obsolete in Christ's time?

Acts 17:1 Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews:

2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,

Yes, it was Paul's manner to "reason with the Jews". Where would he do this? In their synagogues of course. Why? Because that was the seat of Moses.

Where is the Seat of Moses now?

24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; 25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;

Are these not also Paul's Words?

These of course are God's Word (not mine) and it is JESUS not me whose example we are to follow as told in 1 Corinthians 11:1. Of course you are free to believe as you wish. There is no scripture that says Church buildings cannot be made for meeting together on God's Sabbath to read and hear Gods Word and pray and give thanks to God. This is what JESUS and Paul did who are our examples we are told to follow in the scriptures.

So you go into Jewish Temples on God's Sabbath, to reason with them about the Scriptures?

If this is true, then where does the religious tradition of building these Temples come from? Did Paul ever, or Jesus Ever send His Apostles or Gentiles out in the world to build their own Temples of Wood and Stone?

Given this tradition of building Shrines and Temples of Worship is one of the greatest, most universal religious traditions on the planet, it seems a man could find at least one directive from God or His Prophets, or Jesus or His Apostles to partake of such a tradition.

And yet, all you post is that Jesus and Paul went into the temples when the Jews were there to reason with them in the Scriptures, where they were exclusively located.

The old testament scriptures you have provided above have nothing to do with this conversation and your interpretation of these old testament scriptures makes JESUS and Paul hypocrites, while attending the Church's (synagogues) in their day as shown through the scriptures above while telling us to follow their examples.

The topic of this thread is "where does the tradition of building Shrines of Worship come from". The Law and Prophets prophesy of religions and their traditions. You may not believe in them, but to preach they have nothing to do with the topic of this thread is simply untrue. I don't know why you would ever preach such a thing.

You have demonstrated that Jesus and Paul went into various Temples and taught the people who were there, when they were there. In addition, Jesus taught His Disciples while walking though the corn fields on the Sabbath, and while standing in a Boat on the Sabbath. This is Truth, but you don't mention it. Why?? Just like the Promise of the Christ regarding HIS new Covenant, how are these scriptures not relevant to the topic of the thread? Or do you ignore them because they do not help promote your religion?

Something to consider.

The topic of the thread is "where does this tradition come from"? You are defending your religious tradition, but have not provided any Scriptures into its origins.

That's OK LGW. Your argument does bring a different prospective, but doesn't really address the question of the thread, rather, just defending your own religious views.

Neither Jesus, nor Paul ever advocated for the building of such shrines or High Places. That is why you can't find even one place where they approved, or partook in such an ancient religious tradition. I don't think they are Hypocrites for going to the only God of Abraham preaching people on the planet, and risked their lives to teach them a Truth the mainstream preachers of their time refused to teach.

I think the hypocrites are religious men who continue to preach the necessity of gathering in some temple of worship to "hear the word of God", like the Jews of Paul's time, when the Christ Himself has fulfilled His Promise of delivering the Oracles of God to each man, in their own mind and in their own home.

It might be helpful to the conversation to get your definition of what a shrine is (idol worship) correct. No one makes Church buildings for God to live in today, and the Temple in Jerusalem is not the same as a local synagogue (church) and had a different purpose in the old covenant, so what your posting here is not truthful. I think I have shared all that is needed to be shared here from the scriptures. Thanks for the conversation

Of course. It must be the other guy.

Thanks for your perspective, it is truly enlightening.

Studyman · Dec 14, 2020

tdidymas said:
Well, it begs the question: are you trying to make a point that God should be worshipped everywhere and at all times by all people, and that worship of God is not to be limited to a building in which people meet once or twice a week?

If that's your point, then I agree. But the place of assembly is necessary for a church to function, whether it be in homes (as in the book of Acts), or elsewhere, since the NT says that we should assemble ourselves together. Assembly is necessary for people to help each other, as in 1 Corinthians, but it doesn't say that worship is to be limited to that location.

I'm just trying to get to where you're coming from, and how you define worship.
TD

Well I did just answer your last question, in detail. I am glad to answer your questions, but lets finish the questions you started in your last reply. You eluded to your belief that the Tabernacle in the wilderness was for the people to gather in worship. Have you had a chance to look into this, and see if this belief was contrary to the truth of Scriptures?

Also, In the 2 Sam, 1 Kings scriptures I posted, who was it that asked for, or promoted the idea of building a Temple unto God? Did God request this? Or did man request this?

Please answer these questions so I can see where you are coming from, then I will gladly address the question in this latest reply.

And thanks for the questions. It's always good to examine scriptures in seeking the Kingdom of God and His Righteousness.

tdidymas · Dec 14, 2020

Studyman said:
Well I did just answer your last question, in detail. I am glad to answer your questions, but lets finish the questions you started in your last reply. You eluded to your belief that the Tabernacle in the wilderness was for the people to gather in worship. Have you had a chance to look into this, and see if this belief was contrary to the truth of Scriptures?

Also, In the 2 Sam, 1 Kings scriptures I posted, who was it that asked for, or promoted the idea of building a Temple unto God? Did God request this? Or did man request this?

Please answer these questions so I can see where you are coming from, then I will gladly address the question in this latest reply.

And thanks for the questions. It's always good to examine scriptures in seeking the Kingdom of God and His Righteousness.

The way I read it is that firstly God told Moses to fashion the tabernacle according to the pattern shown, which tells me that it is like unto the place God dwells, where angels worship Him. Therefore, I conclude that the tabernacle was a place of worship. It stands to reason, since all the activities there, such as animal sacrifice, incense, etc. were activities of worship. Keep in mind that worship includes obeying God in all things in all of life, and is not limited to activities at the tabernacle.

And then so what if king David had the idea to build a house of God, that is, the temple made of wood and stone? And so what if God seemed to object by saying He doesn't live in houses? Even though some ideas in scripture seem to originate with men, God could very well be prompting the idea, as we see in other matters. And when Solomon finally completed the temple, it appears God authenticated it by manifesting His shekinah glory in the temple. Although it wasn't as miraculous appearing as things that happened at the tabernacle site (fire, cloud, killing of bad priests, etc.), it still was an indicator that God "lived" there, at least temporarily. I surmise that when the leadership waned on their obedience, that God's presence waned from the temple, until finally it was "ichabod," where God's glory departed completely.

So, even though God requires some form of worship in all aspects of life (IMO), He set aside a certain day to devote to Him (the sabbath), and in the same way any location can be one where God is worshiped, but there is also a special place where the presence of God is experienced in a special way, which keeps some aspect of worship uncommon. I hope you see that I'm not just jumping to an unfounded conclusion.
TD

LoveGodsWord · Dec 14, 2020

Studyman said:
You might have some truth in this declaration if we were in the Old Covenant. But we aren't.

Jer. 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

In the Old Covenant the Oracles of God were in the exclusive custody of the Levite Priest, according the Levitical Priesthood. But the Christ Promised of a time when this is no longer the case.

Hebrews 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Of course you don't believe this, as you are still advocating for the construction of Temples of Worship in order to "Hear the Word of God".

In Jesus time, the "Seat of Moses" was located exclusively in the Temple of Worship built by the Jews. That is why they went there. Today, the Seat of Moses is in my home, in my hands as the Christ Promised. This is why neither Jesus, nor Paul ever once advocated, implied, suggested or otherwise instructed any Gentile, Jew or anyone to go into the world and create Temples or Shrines of Worship to, as you preach, "Hear the Word of God".

And yet, the greatest religious tradition on this planet, is to create a religious business, which can only succeed if they build Temples of Worship in order to further their doctrines, depending on the religious franchise who funds the building..

Where does this tradition come from? You have provided nothing to show this religious practice originated in the Word of God. But you have shown your passion for the religious tradition. The perspective and defense tactics you use are very enlightening.

Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, 19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

Where is the directive to Build Temples of wood and stone for worship?

Mark 6:2 And when the sabbath day was come, he began to teach in the synagogue: and many hearing him were astonished, saying, From whence hath this man these things? and what wisdom is this which is given unto him, that even such mighty works are wrought by his hands?

Where else would HE go to teach people about God in that time. It was Moses's Seat. Where is Moses's Seat now?

Luke 6:2 And when the sabbath day was come, he began to teach in the synagogue: and many hearing him were astonished, saying, From whence hath this man these things? and what wisdom is this which is given unto him, that even such mighty works are wrought by his hands?

Again, this was the only God of Abraham preaching people on the planet, who had exclusive ownership of the Book of the Law. Where else would Jesus Go to expose the religions of that time?

Where is the Seat of Moses now? Are we not fully into the New Covenant which was becoming obsolete in Christ's time?

Acts 17:1 Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews:

2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,

Yes, it was Paul's manner to "reason with the Jews". Where would he do this? In their synagogues of course. Why? Because that was the seat of Moses.

Where is the Seat of Moses now?

24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; 25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;

Are these not also Paul's Words?

So you go into Jewish Temples on God's Sabbath, to reason with them about the Scriptures?

If this is true, then where does the religious tradition of building these Temples come from? Did Paul ever, or Jesus Ever send His Apostles or Gentiles out in the world to build their own Temples of Wood and Stone?

Given this tradition of building Shrines and Temples of Worship is one of the greatest, most universal religious traditions on the planet, it seems a man could find at least one directive from God or His Prophets, or Jesus or His Apostles to partake of such a tradition.

And yet, all you post is that Jesus and Paul went into the temples when the Jews were there to reason with them in the Scriptures, where they were exclusively located.

The topic of this thread is "where does the tradition of building Shrines of Worship come from". The Law and Prophets prophesy of religions and their traditions. You may not believe in them, but to preach they have nothing to do with the topic of this thread is simply untrue. I don't know why you would ever preach such a thing.

You have demonstrated that Jesus and Paul went into various Temples and taught the people who were there, when they were there. In addition, Jesus taught His Disciples while walking though the corn fields on the Sabbath, and while standing in a Boat on the Sabbath. This is Truth, but you don't mention it. Why?? Just like the Promise of the Christ regarding HIS new Covenant, how are these scriptures not relevant to the topic of the thread? Or do you ignore them because they do not help promote your religion?

Something to consider.

The topic of the thread is "where does this tradition come from"? You are defending your religious tradition, but have not provided any Scriptures into its origins.

That's OK LGW. Your argument does bring a different prospective, but doesn't really address the question of the thread, rather, just defending your own religious views.

Neither Jesus, nor Paul ever advocated for the building of such shrines or High Places. That is why you can't find even one place where they approved, or partook in such an ancient religious tradition. I don't think they are Hypocrites for going to the only God of Abraham preaching people on the planet, and risked their lives to teach them a Truth the mainstream preachers of their time refused to teach.

I think the hypocrites are religious men who continue to preach the necessity of gathering in some temple of worship to "hear the word of God", like the Jews of Paul's time, when the Christ Himself has fulfilled His Promise of delivering the Oracles of God to each man, in their own mind and in their own home.

Of course. It must be the other guy.

Thanks for your perspective, it is truly enlightening.

Once again your quoting old testament scripture that has nothing to do with the post and scriptures we are discussing and does not support your teachings which are not biblical. Your teachings make JESUS and Paul hypocrites who's custom was to go to the synagogues (church) on the Sabbath whose examples we are told to follow in the scriptures already provided to you. Please by all means show us where God says we are not to build church's to gather together read and hear the Word of God and tell us why JESUS and Paul tell us to follow their example when their custom was to go to church to hear and read the Word of God? I will give you the last say as I think you need it more then I do. Sorry dear friend you are simply wrong and your teaching is not biblical and goes against the scriptures and the teachings of JESUS and Paul so we will have to agree to disagree. This is posted in all love and only as a help to you. My prayer is that you might receive God's correction and be blessed. Ignoring God's Word does not make it disappear.

Studyman · Dec 15, 2020

tdidymas said:
The way I read it is that firstly God told Moses to fashion the tabernacle according to the pattern shown, which tells me that it is like unto the place God dwells, where angels worship Him. Therefore, I conclude that the tabernacle was a place of worship. It stands to reason, since all the activities there, such as animal sacrifice, incense, etc. were activities of worship. Keep in mind that worship includes obeying God in all things in all of life, and is not limited to activities at the tabernacle.

I see your point. The existence of the Tabernacle was a form of worship it seems, and approved of God, actually commanded of God. I would only add that the entire exercise regarding the Tabernacle in the Wilderness was attached to the Levitical Priesthood. Only A Levite Priest could venture past the "Door of the Tabernacle".

The Tabernacle contained the Book of the Law and the Mercy seat. It seems the purpose of the Tabernacle to preserve God's Law, and the purpose of the Priests to read God's Law to the people, and to Provide for their atonement through sacrificial "works of the Law" of atonement.

Numbers 1:50 But thou shalt appoint the Levites over the tabernacle of testimony, and over all the vessels thereof, and over all things that belong to it: they shall bear the tabernacle, and all the vessels thereof; and they shall minister unto it, and shall encamp round about the tabernacle.

51 And when the tabernacle setteth forward, the Levites shall take it down: and when the tabernacle is to be pitched, the Levites shall set it up: and the stranger that cometh nigh shall be put to death.

So I agree with you that the tabernacle was part of how God wanted to be worshiped in that time. It seems this Tabernacle was symbolic of the mind of man, " which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him", where the High Priest and the Book of the Law resides.

52 And the children of Israel shall pitch their tents, every man by his own camp, and every man by his own standard, throughout their hosts.

53 But the Levites shall pitch round about the tabernacle of testimony, that there be no wrath upon the congregation of the children of Israel: and the Levites shall keep the charge of the tabernacle of testimony.

54 And the children of Israel did according to all that the LORD commanded Moses, so did they.

You have brought a very good addition to this discussion. What came to mind as I was reading these verses and your comments was the Promise of a New Covenant.

Jer. 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

I seemed to me, please let me know your thoughts, that the only way to hear God's Word in the Old Covenant, was to go to the door of the Tabernacle or Temple, where the Levite Priest presided over the Book of the Law.

But in the New Covenant God's Law is entered into the minds of His People. And look, today we all have the Oracles of God in our own homes. We have the Book of the Law in our hands, and in our minds. So then, isn't Moses Seat not in our own homes now?

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

So again, the Christ promised of a Day when we would all have the Oracles of God in our own mind. Why then, the Tradition of building Shrines of Worship, presided over by a religious man preaching whatever doctrine the builder of the Temple of worship promotes? Are we not fully into the New Covenant? It Seems like the religions of the world still mimic a watered down version of the Levitical Priesthood, even after the Seed has come, and delivered His New Covenant?

I find no evidence that Jesus or Paul directed members of HIS New Covenant church to follow the tradition of the Jews in this matter. Therefore the Thread that you are graciously discussing with me.

And then so what if king David had the idea to build a house of God, that is, the temple made of wood and stone? And so what if God seemed to object by saying He doesn't live in houses? Even though some ideas in scripture seem to originate with men, God could very well be prompting the idea, as we see in other matters. And when Solomon finally completed the temple, it appears God authenticated it by manifesting His shekinah glory in the temple. Although it wasn't as miraculous appearing as things that happened at the tabernacle site (fire, cloud, killing of bad priests, etc.), it still was an indicator that God "lived" there, at least temporarily. I surmise that when the leadership waned on their obedience, that God's presence waned from the temple, until finally it was "ichabod," where God's glory departed completely.

Yes, that is a good point as well. "So what if the tradition comes from man and not from God".

But it seems prudent to also consider that maybe the reason why the Temple became filled with devils and false doctrine, is "Because" it was a tradition of man and not God.

And God didn't destroy the temple when it became filled with doctrines of the religion of the land, it remained for years as the Center of the propagation of false doctrines and false prophets. And when that Temple was torn down, another was raised in it's place, in God's Name, and continued to be the central Hub for the Shepherds which led God's People Astray right up to the point when Jesus took a scourge and whipped those who had made a business out of the Temple of Worship made in God's Name.

Paul said these were written for our examples, for our admonition. What was lesson here in Solomon? That religious men should erect shrines of worship by the millions all across the world and create a huge religious business for profit 24/7?

If the Great King Solomon couldn't build a Temple of Worship free from corruption, even after God Appeared directly to him, and gave him instructions on how the Temple of Worship could become His Residence, there is no way a maggot turd like me could.

But that is me. My perspective and questions regarding the tradition that come to my mind. You might have a different thought on the matter, a different perspective. I look forward to hearing it.

So, even though God requires some form of worship in all aspects of life (IMO), He set aside a certain day to devote to Him (the sabbath), and in the same way any location can be one where God is worshiped, but there is also a special place where the presence of God is experienced in a special way, which keeps some aspect of worship uncommon. I hope you see that I'm not just jumping to an unfounded conclusion.
TD

No I don't believe your addition to this discussion is jumping to unfounded conclusion. I find your addition compelling, and questions thoughtful. I can't tell you how refreshing it is to actually have a discussion about what is written, as opposed to men just defending a religious tradition they partake in.

I appreciate your additions to this thread and look forward to more of your thoughts. I know this topic is taboo for many, as the Temple of their Worship is sacred to them, as it was to the Jews in Christ's time. But I also know how important it is to "take heed" of the warnings the Christ of the Bible gave us, and to "prove all things".

Thanks for your participation in the discussion.

Studyman · Dec 15, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
Once again your quoting old testament scripture that has nothing to do with the post and scriptures we are discussing and does not support your teachings which are not biblical.

The topic of this thread is "where does the tradition of building shrines and temples of worship come from."

Not "where does the tradition or God sending His Prophets and Disciples, and even HIS Own Son to the religions of the land to teach and warn them".

I know why Jesus and Paul went into the Temples of worship these religious men built, who were leading God's People Astray. But that is not the topic of this thread.

You are being a Bully here LGW, and you are purposely deflecting from the topic, in your passion to defend the religious franchise you promote. I expected more from you.

You may believe and preach to others that the Law and Prophets are irrelevant to this thread, but I don't prescribe to your religious philosophy in this matter. I think it is hypocritical for you to use Old Testament Scriptures to rail on other religions, but then reject Old Testament scripture, including the Promise of the Christ of the Bible of a New Covenant, when it may bring question to the practices of your own religious franchise. You are doing exactly what your accuse others of doing, you should check your own beam.

Your teachings make JESUS and Paul hypocrites who's custom was to go to the synagogues (church) on the Sabbath whose examples we as told to follow in the scriptures already provided to you.

God has sent Prophets to the religious leaders of the land that led people astray for centuries. And now you imply HE is a Hypocrite because HE sent Jesus, His own Son, and Paul His own Disciple, to do what His Prophets have been doing since Abel? Or that I am a Hypocrite because I acknowledge this Practice of God?

Matt. 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

And where did these people gather?

And still, not one word, not one scripture in discussion regarding where the tradition to build Temples of Worship came from, which is the topic of this thread.

You should humble yourself here and check yourself LGW. You are being a Bully.

Please by all means show us where God says we are not to build church's to gather together read and hear the Word of God and tell us why JESUS and Paul tell us to follow their example when their custom was to go to church to hear and read the Word of God?

The topic is "where does the Tradition of Building Temples of worship, come from".

Their "custom", like the Prophets before them, was to go into the religions of the Land that GOD SENT them to, that claimed the God of Abraham as their God, to warn them of their doctrines and Traditions of men that they taught.

I know where the tradition of going into the religious temples of the land to reason with them in the scriptures comes from. Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Malachi, Amos, Habakkuk, these all follow the same Traditions of Jesus and Paul in trying to reason with the religious leaders of the land, and the people who followed them.

But this has nothing to do with the topic of this thread.

I will give you the last say as I think you need it more then I do. Sorry dear friend you are simply wrong and your teaching is not biblical and goes against the scriptures and the teachings of JESUS and Paul so we will have to agree to disagree. This is posted in all love and only as a help to you. My prayer is that you might receive God's correction and be blessed. Ignoring God's Word does not make it disappear.

Your prayer should be that you may be humbled yourself, enough to receive correction.
Something you seem convinced you are above.

And you might follow your own advice as well. "Ignoring God's Word does not make it disappear".

Where does the universal religious tradition of building Shrines of worship come from?

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