Who is "National Israel"?

Fullness of the Gentiles said:

That's the way you interpret it. It's not what Zechariah was told about John the Baptist, it's not what John the Baptist claimed of himself, and it's not what Jesus said about Elijah and John the Baptist. The spirit and power of Elijah is not Elijah himself.

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I've taken the time to answer your questions and you didn't think it worth your while to even answer one of mine. I will try again.

Do you at least acknowledge that John the Baptist was the Elijah to come in terms of being the Elijah who would "turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers" as written in Malachi 4:5-6?

The angel speaking to his father Zechariah certainly believed that John the Baptist was the Elijah to come who would "turn the heart of the fathers to the children", as the following clearly shows:

Luke 1:13 But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John. 14 And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth. 15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb. 16 And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God. 17 And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

The angel quoted Malachi 4:5-6 directly in Luke 1:17 and attributed the fulfillment of the one who would "turn the hearts of the fathers to the children" as being John the Baptist "in the spirit and power of Elijah", which meant he was like Elijah, but obviously not Elijah himself. Do you acknowledge that John the Baptist fulfilled the part of Malachi 4:5-6 that said Elijah would come "to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children"?

chad kincham said:

The house of Israel is who the new covenant is with, which is national Israel, the physical and genetic Israelis.

Paul makes clear in Romans 11 that God is not done with national Israel, and the bit about being spiritually Israel as a believer doesn’t apply, because we non Jew gentiles are grafted into the new covenant that Jesus brought to the house of Israel.

If being a spiritual Jew applied to salvation, we wouldn’t need grafted in as a wild olive tree branch, onto the Jewish olive tree of the house of Israel.

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Do you think Paul was confused in his letter to the church at Corinth?

2Co 3:6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
2Co 3:7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away,
2Co 3:8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious?


Do you think the author of the Book of Hebrews was confused below when he applied the New Covenant to the church?

Heb 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb 12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.


Why do you think every member of the modern Church is a "non Jew gentile"?


Why are you ignoring the house of Judah?

Heb 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.
Heb 8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—
Heb 8:9 NOT ACCORDING TO THE COVENANT THAT I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS IN THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; BECAUSE THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DISREGARDED THEM, SAYS THE LORD.
Heb 8:10 FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS IN THEIR MIND AND WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
Heb 8:11 NONE OF THEM SHALL TEACH HIS NEIGHBOR, AND NONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,' FOR ALL SHALL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST OF THEM TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.
Heb 8:12 FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."
Heb 8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.


Promoters of Dispensational Theology often change the word "so", which is an adverb of manner, into the word "then", which is an adverb of timing in Romans 11:26. This is a corruption of God's Word.
There is no Plan B of salvation outside of the Church found in Romans 11.

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Fullness of the Gentiles said:

Not the same Elijah mentioned by Malachi. John the Baptist came in the spirit and power of Elijah and did what Zechariah was told he would do:

"And he shall turn many of the sons of Israel to the Lord their God. And he shall go before Him in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just, to make ready a people prepared for the Lord." Luke 1:16-17

"But the angel said to him, Do not fear, Zacharias. For your prayer is heard, and your wife Elizabeth shall bear you a son, and you shall call his name John." Luke 1:16

"Behold, I am sending you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD.
And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the sons, and the heart of the sons to their fathers, that I not come and strike the earth with utter destruction." Malachi 4:5-6

"And you shall call his name John."

"And they asked him, What then? Are you Elijah? And he says, I am not. Are you that prophet? And he answered, No." John 1:21

Continue to make (what you have already shown) you make of what Jesus meant.

By my questions I've shown you why I believe you (could be) wrong when you say it means that Elijah is not coming. That is the only purpose of my questions.

You have already shown me why you believe you are right when you say that Elijah is not coming.

So because you are so determined that I must agree with you, you are turning it into another one of those long, long, endless "I, Spiritual Jew" must always be right and be seen to be right" debates.

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Don't be a hypocrite. I took the time to answer all of your questions and this is how you treat me? Should I have not answered them? This is not a one-sided debate. You are part of it just as much as I am, but just because you disagree with me then I am the one who must always be right? I could say the same about you, but I won't, because I don't want to judge anyone. I never said that that I must always be right, so you are judging me. Should I say the same about you since you continue to make your arguments over and over as well?

Just because I am confident about what I believe doesn't mean I'm saying I must always be right. That is not the case. There's nothing wrong with being confident about your understanding of scripture. My confidence is in God's ability to reveal the truth to me, not in my own ability to understand.

For me it's a closed subject because you have already stated why you believe the Elijah prophecy in Malachi refers to John the Baptist only, and I have already stated why I believe (in the possibility that) Elijah is still coming and the Malachi prophecy does not ultimately refer to John the Baptist, and that because the Messiah has come and the Messiah is coming, John the Baptist was a partial fulfillment but the ultimate fulfillment refers to Elijah himself just before the Messiah comes (His parousia). I also made it clear that I believe this is why Jesus juxtaposed a future-tense fulfillment of the Elijah prophecy with a past-tense fulfillment when He replied to the apostles' question.

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Okay, so you acknowledge that at least John the Baptist was a partial fulfillment of the prophecy. You try to say my view is illogical, yet, is it logical for John the Baptist to even be a partial fulfillment of the prophecy when he is obviously not mentioned specifically in Malachi 4? Of course not. So, logic has nothing to do with it. God does not need to fulfill prophecy based on human logic and that's something I'm trying to get across here. That was the reason I brought up this prophecy in the first place.

So argue with yourself brother. Because continuing with this debate when we disagree after we have both stated why we believe what we believe, is R-I-D-I-C-U-L-O-U-S and I don't feel the need to continue to debate it like you do, "just to be right".

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You are a funny one. We were BOTH going back and forth with our view, but for some reason I'm the only on here who is insisting that I'm right and want this debate to go on forever? No. The debate has reached its conclusion and I have no interest in continuing in it. I just wanted to see if you were willing to acknowledge that, at the very least, John the Baptist was a partial fulfillment to the prophecy which shows that your claim that I'm being illogical is false because it's not even logical by human standards for him to even be a partial fulfillment to the prophecy.

Spiritual Jew said:

Yet, despite this, premils like yourself still insist on interpreting OT prophecies very literally.

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Actually amil are more literal when it comes to this Day. Day is a symbolic term meaning a period of time. You interpret Day only as a literal 24 hour day, when Scripture does not call it a 24 hour day. The Day of Jesus at His first coming, growing up notwithstanding, was an earthly ministry a little longer than 3.5 years. It was not a literal 24 hour day. The Second Coming Day of the Lord is going to be 1000+ years. It will not be a literal 24 hour day, and then reality is over.

Amil can only see the Day of the Lord as 24 hours, literally. The Cross being one day. Pentecost being one day. The battle of Armageddon being 1 hour, is even less than a day, but still a literal 24 hour day.

Spiritual Jew said:

I don't know what you mean here. Please explain. You're trying to talk about logic here, but I'm not the one who said John the Baptist was the Elijah to come (Matt 11:14, Matt 17:11-13). Jesus said that. Are you going to call Jesus illogical?

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That was the conclusion of the disciples.

11 He answered, “On the one hand, Eliyahu is coming and will restore all things;
12 on the other hand, I tell you that Eliyahu has come already, and people did not recognize him but did whatever they pleased to him. In the same way, the Son of Man too is about to suffer at their hands.”
13 Then the talmidim understood that he was talking to them about Yochanan the Immerser.

Verse 12 could be talking about when Elijah actually came the first time to King Ahab and Jezabel. They hated him, because he pointed out their wickedness, just like Jesus pointed out the wickedness of the Sanhedren. Here is why. John was very popular with the people, even more than Elijah was. The only two people who hated him to the point of death was once again the king, Herod, and is unlawful wife, he took from his brother. The very thing John lost his head for. The religious leaders feared John. Jesus could have been talking about Elijah or John because they both were hated by the king, but John was more popular than even Elijah. It was Elisha who had the double ministry of Elijah who was more popular of his day. Elijah came on the scene and left just as abruptly as he came. That is why it was prophesied Elijah would come again.

So verse 11 shows that Elijah indeed will come. This is still future to the second Jesus said that. Then Jesus was either referring to the first time in ancient Israel or John. Jesus still left them guessing. His disciples settled on the point John the Baptist came in the spirit of Elijah. Jesus never changed their minds, one way or the other. Thus nothing was settled that day, nor to this day. The only thing that would settle it would be the world knowing Elijah is actually on earth doing as was foretold. And John never even hinted in Revelation that is going to happen.

My point from this exchange is that the original Elijah was never born in that time of Ahab. The city he was from means sojourner. Jesus said Elijah came from (implied heaven) and returned to heaven as witnessed by Elisha. So how did Elijah come from heaven? Prior to the Flood, there was a righteous man, who walked with God every day, until God took him to heaven. That is who I see as Elijah. Elijah being a very righteous man in all he does. It is possible that he was also Elihu who came to Job as the most righteous judge against Job who was getting lost in Satan’s attacks on his own righteousness. Another interesting human is Eliezer, Abraham's chief servant. I know that some see this human as being a type of the person of the Holy Spirit. That is part of the spiritual aspect of what the Holy Spirit does in our individual lives, if we let the Holy Spirit work in us. Malachi may have been using a human as symbolism for the work of the Holy Spirit as well. That prior to both Comings the Holy Spirit would be more pronounced than normal.

I doubt any will agree with me, but that is my opinion on this Elijah being. Making families right and whole seems to be the job of this mystery traveler coming back and forth from heaven.

Fullness of the Gentiles said:

@chad kincham
The only part of the physical and genetic seed of Abraham that still exist and still existed as a nation at the time of Christ are the house of Judah (a.k.a "the Jews"). God calls them the house of Judah. The prophets call them the house of Judah.

The New Covenant was promised to the house of Israel and the house of Judah and established by Jesus in His blood. Those who do not have faith in the blood of Jesus for the remission of their sins are broken off from covenant relationship with God, if they are genetic seed. So you make both Jeremiah and Paul liars by your false statements.

You've denied this before, and now you've denied it again. If you continue to deny it, you're calling Jeremiah a liar, Paul a liar, John the Baptist a liar, and Jesus a liar, saying that the new covenant was promised only the the genetic seed of Abraham, regardless of whether or not they reject God's New Covenant by rejecting Christ.

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The Atonement is not a new covenant. It was in place before creation. It was in place before Adam. It was in place before Abraham. Do you think there could be another covenant between Abraham and God besides the everlasting eternal covenant? A physical covenant about the land of Palestine?

Fullness of the Gentiles said:

Who is "National Israel"? I've seen this term used in these boards as though "National Israel" refers to the genetic descendants of Abraham only, ie "the Jews" only.

Deuteronomy 14:2 says,

"For you are a holy people to the LORD your God, and the LORD has chosen you to be a peculiar people to Himself, above all the nations that are on the earth."

It was talking to all 12 tribes of Israel. It was spoken long after Jacob (Israel) when on his death-bed, told his son Joseph the following regarding Joseph's son, Ephraim:

"And Joseph's father, Jacob, refused and said, I know, my son, I know. Manasseh also shall become a people, and he also shall be great, but truly his younger brother Ephraim shall be greater than he is, and his seed shall become (Hebrew: melo goy: "the fullness of the Gentiles", translated correctly into English as "a multitude of nations.") (Gen 48:19).

Deuteronomy 14:2 was spoken long before Israel was split into a Northern kingdom (the house of Israel) consisting of 10 tribes, and a Southern kingdom (the house of Judah) consisting of Judah (the Jews) and Benjamin. It was long before God, through the prophets, began collectively calling the 10 tribes of the Northern kingdom "Ephraim".

Deuteronomy 14:2 was spoken long before God told Hosea to prophesy regarding the house of Israel,

"For you are not My people, and I will not be your God. Yet the number of the sons of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered. And it shall be, in the place where it was said to them, You are not My people, there it shall be said to them, You are the sons of the living God.
Then the sons of Judah and the sons of Israel shall be gathered together, and shall set over themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land. For great shall be the day of Jezreel." (Hosea 1:9-11).

Deuteronomy 14:2 was spoken long before the 10 Northern tribes were exiled from their land and scattered among the nations, long before the descendants of the 10 Northern tribes intermarried with Gentiles in the nations to which they were scattered, to the point where the original 10 tribes are untraceable today.

Deuteronomy 14:2 was spoken long before Jeremiah prophesied that God would cut a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah that would not be like the covenant He cut with them during the days of Moses (Jeremiah 31:31).

Deuteronomy 14:2 was spoken long before the apostle Paul took the above prophecy mentioned in Hosea, which refers to the house of Israel and not to the Jews, and applied it to Gentiles who believe in Jesus":

"What if God, willing to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much long-suffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction; and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy which He had before prepared to glory; whom He also called, not only us, of Jews, but also of the Gentiles?
As He also says in Hosea, "I will call those not My people, My people; and those not beloved, Beloved." And it shall be, in the place where it was said to them. "You are not My people"; there they shall be called sons of the living God." (Romans 9:22-26).

Deuteronomy 14:2 was spoken to the 12 tribes of Israel long before the time which we read of in the gospels, when the chief priests and pharisees heard Jesus' parable of the wicked vinedressers (at the time the Lord told them that the kingdom would be taken from them), when the chief priests and the pharisees, hearing the Lord's parable, "understood that Jesus spoke of them" (Matthew 21:45).

THE THING ABOUT THE ABOVE PARABLE THAT IS OFTEN MISUNDERSTOOD​

We must remember that the chief priests and pharisees were the vinedressers in the parable (Matthew 21:33-45). The Lord could not have been speaking of all the Jews - because not only were the apostles all Jews, but the apostle who was given the keys to the kingdom of heaven, was a Jew (Peter). (Matthew 16:19).

Matthew 21:33-45 makes it abundantly clear that Jesus was addressing the chief priests and pharisees when he said the kingdom would be taken from them, and the chief priests and pharisees understood by the parable of the wicked vinedressers that Jesus spoke of them.

Sometimes I wish that every Christian would repeat to himself (or herself) over and over, "The kingdom was taken from the chief priests and pharisees, who were the vinedressers, the keepers of the flock, who were Jews, and the keys of the kingdom of heaven were given to Peter, who was a Jew. Indeed, all the apostles were Jews, and are part of the very foundation of the New Testament Temple, which is the Church".

All the Jews or genetic descendants of Abraham who rejected Christ, and all genetic descendants who continue to reject Him, are broken off from Israel (the olive tree), just as Paul says in Romans 9:6-7, "For not all those (who are born of) Israel are Israel; nor because they are the (genetic) seed of Abraham are they all children.", but there is a distinction between the people who are the nation called Israel, and their leaders: Today we only have one King, and one High Priest, and we are all priests of God.

So there has always been only one nation called Israel, the Gentiles who beieve in Jesus are part of it, and God considers them "the house of Israel", whereas the Jews who believe in Jesus are "the house of Judah".

This is true regardless of the fact that Paul uses the words "Israel" and "Jew" interchangeably, because later in Romans 9 he also says,

"What if God, willing to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much long-suffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction; and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy which He had before prepared to glory; whom He also called, not only us, of Jews, but also of the Gentiles? As He also says in Hosea, "I will call those not My people, My people; and those not beloved, Beloved." And it shall be, in the place where it was said to them. "You are not My people"; there they shall be called sons of the living God." (Romans 9:22-26).

The prophecy in Hosea refers to the house of Israel, NOT to the Jews.

THERE HAS THEREFORE ALWAYS BEEN ONLY ONE NATION BUT THERE IS A NEW TEMPLE, WHICH IS ALSO THE CHURCH

There is therefore no new nation, there is no such thing as "National Israel + "The Gentiles". It's the same nation that's existed since Jacob (Israel) was blessed by God with twelve sons- but there is a new temple, and the individual members of the nation are the living stones that it is comprised of - therefore there is no distinction between the members of the nation and the temple anymore, and since the New Testament Temple = The Church, The Church therefore = Israel, and there is no such thing as "Replacement Theology".

The fact that the Church = the New Testament Temple does not mean the kingdom was taken from "the Jews" and given to "the Gentiles", because Peter, who was a Jew, received the keys to the kingdom of heaven, and he was also an apostle, and he is part of the foundation of the New Testament Temple, which is comprised of the house of Israel and the house of Judah (which consists only of those who are part of Christ's flock). The kingdom was taken only from the chief priests and pharisees, who were the wicked vinedressers in the Lord's parable, and any Jew or Gentile who believes in Christ is part of His flock, members and citizens of His people, Israel, and is in His Kingdom - which is still comprised of "the house of Israel" and "the house of Judah", but are one nation in Christ.

These are the saints, and no Jew or Gentile who rejects Christ and who is not part of His flock, is part of Israel.

Deuteronomy 14:2 is speaking to all 12 tribes of Israel long before any of the above events of history took place - but it is still speaking to all Israel, except that today we have a new covenant which is unlike that covenant which God made with US in the days of Moses (Jeremiah 31:31-33). Yes, the New Covenant is cut with US, because we Gentiles are the house of Israel in God's eyes, and therefore it is OUR history written in Deuteronomy equally as much as it is the history of "the Jews"/the house of Judah.

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"National Israel" today refers only to the nation state of Israel in the middle east, and all Jews associated with it. It's really just a political term, not a Biblical declaration.

Since the ten tribes of the northern kingdom were scattered by God, never to return as a majority, only the "kingdom of Judah" south at Jerusalem/Judea remained. Those of the southern kingdom became known as Jews, that title taken from the tribe of Judah. The southern kingdom made up the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, Levi, and some small remnants of the northern tribes that refused king Jeroboam's golden idol worship in the north, and instead migrated south and joined with Judah. Foreigners that became Jews also became part of this southern kingdom of Judah. These went captive to Babylon for 70 years, which happened about 120 years after the northern ten tribes had been removed to Assyria.

Only a small number of the Jews actually returned to Jerusalem from the Babylon captivity. The majority of Jews chose to remain in Babylon, because God had promised to take care of them there, and He did, they increased in numbers. These Jews that stayed in Babylon after the 70 years, and were the majority, were further scattered through the countries.

So the real Biblical convention is...

"house of Judah" = the orthodox unbelieving Jews of the southern kingdom. Today, it includes remnants of those 3 tribes mentioned above, some remnants from the northern tribes, and foreigners with them that became religious Jews. Orthodox Jews in other lands are represented by this "house of Judah" label also in God's Word. But the heart of them is represented by the nation state of Israel today in the middle east.

"house of Israel" = this still represents the scattered ten tribes of the northern kingdom of Israel which God caused to be scattered first. The majority of them lost knowledge of their heritage as part of old Israel, per God's purpose and prophecy in Hosea, and Deut.4 & 28. They fell into paganism, adopted new names and new lands as they migrated. These made up the majority of the tribes and peoples of the children of Israel. God has promised to gather them in final, back to the lands He promised their fathers.

Christ's Church = believers on Jesus Christ as Messiah, made up of both believing Israelites (from both houses), and believing Gentiles, as one body in Christ. In final, under Christ Jesus, both the future "house of Judah" and "house of Israel" will be under the coming Kingdom of Jesus Christ, our King and Lord. That represents God's Israel of the future world to come, on earth.

chad kincham said:

The new covenant is with THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL, and the fact that all other believers have to be grafted on as wild olive tree branches, to their olive tree to be included in their covenant, proves that national and physical (genetic)
Jews are a fact.

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The Olive tree is Jesus. He is the One into whom we Christians are grafted.
You have contradicted yourself by saying the Jews are part of the House of Israel. The Jews belong to the House of Judah, with quite a different destiny from the ten Northern tribes. They will rejoin after the Lord's Day of wrath, as per Ezekiel 37.

Jews are a fact? If I call myself superman; will that be a fact?
The Jews have some historical support and traditions for their claim, but basically the citizens of the State of Israel, are a mixture of races and ethnicities.

Davy said:

Christ's Church = believers on Jesus Christ as Messiah, made up of both believing Israelites (from both houses), and believing Gentiles, as one body in Christ. In final, under Christ Jesus, both the future "house of Judah" and "house of Israel" will be under the coming Kingdom of Jesus Christ, our King and Lord. That represents God's Israel of the future world to come, on earth.

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Thank you, Davy. Your post is historically and Biblically correct.

Those who think God still has any respect for a nation who reject Jesus and rely on their own strength, are sadly mistaken.
Jesus says who the Jews belong to. Revelation 2:9

Fullness of the Gentiles said:

So I just feel that the fact that:

* I did not claim that John the Baptist "never came" before Christ in the spirit and power of Elijah - I mentioned the fact that he did;
* Unlike you who only quoted one part of what the Lord said in your first post about this subject, I DID quote EVERYTHING that the Lord said in His reply to the disciples' question regarding why the prophets say Elijah must come first; INCLUDING what He said about "Elijah shall come first and shall restore all things";
* everything else I said in my post was enough to show an objective person (unless they pretend they did not see it that way) that in my post I was saying that John the Baptist was a fulfillment, but not (necessarily) THE fulfillment of the Elijah prophecy.

So your question was basically forcing me to say again what I had already made obvious in my post. How could it not be obvious when I mentioned the fact that Zechariah was told that his son would go before the Messiah in the spirit and power of Elijah, and that after saying Elijah shall come and shall restore all things, Jesus said Elijah had come already and they had done to him as they pleased?

In your first post about this subject, it's you who only quoted one part of the Lord's reply to the disciples' question and ignored the rest, not me.

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I didn't ignore anything. You sure have a funny way of moving on from this debate. Doesn't look like you are doing that. I already have. Join me.

BUT I'm not fighting about it, just saying, because it's not necessary to argue about something that has zero effect on your or my or anyone else's salvation even after we've both put forward the reasons why we believe something to be the case, and we still don't agree.

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I agree. And, yet, here you are still arguing about it. Just move on like you said you wanted us to do.

Timtofly said:

Actually amil are more literal when it comes to this Day.

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Yep, you're right. The fact of the matter is that both premil and amil interpret some passages literally and some figuratively. We just disagree on which passages should be intepreted literally and which should be interpreted figuratively sometimes.

BABerean2 said:

Do you think Paul was confused in his letter to the church at Corinth?

2Co 3:6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
2Co 3:7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away,
2Co 3:8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious?


Do you think the author of the Book of Hebrews was confused below when he applied the New Covenant to the church?

Heb 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb 12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.


Why do you think every member of the modern Church is a "non Jew gentile"?


Why are you ignoring the house of Judah?

Heb 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.
Heb 8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—
Heb 8:9 NOT ACCORDING TO THE COVENANT THAT I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS IN THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; BECAUSE THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DISREGARDED THEM, SAYS THE LORD.
Heb 8:10 FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS IN THEIR MIND AND WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
Heb 8:11 NONE OF THEM SHALL TEACH HIS NEIGHBOR, AND NONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,' FOR ALL SHALL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST OF THEM TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.
Heb 8:12 FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."
Heb 8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.


Promoters of Dispensational Theology often change the word "so", which is an adverb of manner, into the word "then", which is an adverb of timing in Romans 11:26. This is a corruption of God's Word.
There is no Plan B of salvation outside of the Church found in Romans 11.

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You can try to spin it all day long.

We have to be grafted onto the olive tree by faith, of the house of Israel.

BABerean2 said:

Do you think Paul was confused in his letter to the church at Corinth?



2Co 3:6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
2Co 3:7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away,
2Co 3:8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious?


Do you think the author of the Book of Hebrews was confused below when he applied the New Covenant to the church?

Heb 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb 12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.


Why do you think every member of the modern Church is a "non Jew gentile"?


Why are you ignoring the house of Judah?

Heb 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.
Heb 8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—
Heb 8:9 NOT ACCORDING TO THE COVENANT THAT I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS IN THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; BECAUSE THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DISREGARDED THEM, SAYS THE LORD.
Heb 8:10 FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS IN THEIR MIND AND WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
Heb 8:11 NONE OF THEM SHALL TEACH HIS NEIGHBOR, AND NONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,' FOR ALL SHALL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST OF THEM TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.
Heb 8:12 FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."
Heb 8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.


Promoters of Dispensational Theology often change the word "so", which is an adverb of manner, into the word "then", which is an adverb of timing in Romans 11:26. This is a corruption of God's Word.
There is no Plan B of salvation outside of the Church found in Romans 11.

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Jesus brought plan A to the Jews, and their rejection of Him is why gentiles can now be included in plan A.

There’s no such thing as a covenant with the church.

The term HOUSE of Israel is indisputable - it means national Israel.

Jamieson-Faucet-Brown scholarly commentary on Jeremiah and the new covenant with the HOUSE of Israel:

the days ... new covenant with ... Israel ... Judah — The new covenant is made with literal Israel and Judah, not with the spiritual Israel, (that is, believers, except secondarily), and as grafted on the stock of Israel (Rom 11:16-27).

For the whole subject of the thirtieth and thirty-first chapters is the restoration of the Hebrews (Jer 30:4, Jer 30:7, Jer 30:10, Jer 30:18; Jer 31:7, Jer 31:10, Jer 31:11, Jer 31:23, Jer 31:24, Jer 31:27, Jer 31:36).

With the “remnant according to the election of grace” in Israel, the new covenant has already taken effect. But with regard to the whole nation, its realization is reserved for the last days, to which Paul refers this prophecy in an abridged form (Rom 11:27).

keras said:

The Olive tree is Jesus. He is the One into whom we Christians are grafted.
You have contradicted yourself by saying the Jews are part of the House of Israel. The Jews belong to the House of Judah, with quite a different destiny from the ten Northern tribes. They will rejoin after the Lord's Day of wrath, as per Ezekiel 37.

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Romans 11 refutes you.

The olive tree is National Israel.

chad kincham said:

Jesus brought plan A to the Jews, and their rejection of Him is why gentiles can now be included in plan A.

There’s no such thing as a covenant with the church.

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Peter's words below on the Day of Pentecost reveal your claim to be in error.


Act 2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:


Act 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Act 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
Act 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.


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chad kincham said:

You can try to spin it all day long.

We have to be grafted onto the olive tree by faith, of the house of Israel.

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Based on Matthew 1:1, and Galatians 3:16-29, Christ is the ultimate fulfillment of Israel.


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