Endtimes Eventism, disagreement with

garee said:

It simply means holy set aside by God not seen for a certain purpose. It include brothers and sisters, the church .Its not the church setting aside its own members called patron saints .As loosed from earth bound in the heaven .(Upside down)

Click to expand...

No one is holy or righteous is my point. Those people actually set aside to be holy would be the 11 disciples of Christ, and Paul. Abraham, David, Samuel, the prophets. God sets them aside, not set aside by other humans and not of our own volition.

The church accepts God's call, but not generally set aside.

Members join the church and thus make up the body. Saints are called out of humanity by God, for those important parts of a functioning body.

Marilyn C said:

Hi Fullness,

Remember this scripture, `For NO OTHER FOUNDATION can anyone lay than that which is laid, WHICH IS JESUS CHRIST.` (1 Cor. 3: 11)

Click to expand...

Were you trying to refute what he said as if the passage he referenced wasn't true? If so, you are taking 1 Corinthians 3:11 out of context and causing it to contradict this passage:

Ephesians 2:19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.

This passage is talking about the foundation of the church while 1 Corinthians 3:11 is talking about the foundation of each individual's Christian faith.

Spiritual Jew said:

Were you trying to refute what he said as if the passage he referenced wasn't true? If so, you are taking 1 Corinthians 3:11 out of context and causing it to contradict this passage:

Ephesians 2:19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.

This passage is talking about the foundation of the church while 1 Corinthians 3:11 is talking about the foundation of each individual's Christian faith.

Click to expand...

Thank you for your explanation. However if each individual is built upon the foundation of the Lord, then the corporate Body is also built upon the foundation of Christ.

The Apostles and Prophets (who are built upon Christ`s foundation) are those of the Lord who help to reveal the truths of Christ, who is the foundation. They receive the revelation of Christ, His character and His purposes and thus we are all building on the foundation which is Christ.

The Body of Christ is not built upon man but Christ and the revelation of Christ.

Marilyn C said:

Thank you for your explanation. However if each individual is built upon the foundation of the Lord, then the corporate Body is also built upon the foundation of Christ.

The Apostles and Prophets (who are built upon Christ`s foundation) are those of the Lord who help to reveal the truths of Christ, who is the foundation. They receive the revelation of Christ, His character and His purposes and thus we are all building on the foundation which is Christ.

The Body of Christ is not built upon man but Christ and the revelation of Christ.

Click to expand...

Do you think Paul was mistaken when he said that the body of Christ is built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets with Christ as the chief cornerstone?

Was Jesus mistaken when He said this to Peter:

Matthew 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. 18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Now, what some obviously don't understand is that Jesus was not saying He was going to build His church just upon Peter himself, but also upon the other apostles and the prophets as well. With Himself as the chief cornerstone, of course. It is first and foremost built upon Christ, but the apostles and prophets are also part of the foundation. Paul couldn't have been more clear about that.

Spiritual Jew said:

Do you think Paul was mistaken when he said that the body of Christ is built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets with Christ as the chief cornerstone?

Click to expand...

I think your view of what is being said is not correct. The Body of Christ is not built on man but Christ, He gave Himself for it and is building and maturing it. (Eph. 4: 12, 5: 25)

The word `foundation` refers to what the apostles and prophets used for building by the Lord. (Eph. 4: 11 & 12) As the apostle Paul tells us it was a REVELATION OF CHRIST that he received and that is what he imparted to his disciples.

We need to ask ourselves - What did the apostles and prophets do/receive that was used as foundational material for the Body of Christ.

Marilyn C said:

I think your view of what is being said is not correct. The Body of Christ is not built on man but Christ, He gave Himself for it and is building and maturing it. (Eph. 4: 12, 5: 25)

The word `foundation` refers to what the apostles and prophets used for building by the Lord. (Eph. 4: 11 & 12) As the apostle Paul tells us it was a REVELATION OF CHRIST that he received and that is what he imparted to his disciples.

We need to ask ourselves - What did the apostles and prophets do/receive that was used as foundational material for the Body of Christ.

Click to expand...

So, it would be your contention that the English translators of the Bible all messed up when translating Ephesians 2:19-22 then? That's interesting that you have a better command of Greek than all of the English translators of the many English translations of the Bible. Fascinating.

Do you offer online courses for learning Greek that I could sign up for, by chance?

Spiritual Jew said:

So, it would be your contention that the English translators of the Bible all messed up when translating Ephesians 2:19-22 then? That's interesting that you have a better command of Greek than all of the English translators of the many English translations of the Bible. Fascinating.

Do you offer online courses for learning Greek that I could sign up for, by chance?

Click to expand...

Now no reason to be rude. Your view makes man the foundation upon which the Lord is building His Body, and no man is worthy or able or has the omni`s that the Lord has - omnipotent, omniscient, & omnipresent. Also the Lord is the only Mediator between God and man and thus the only one worthy and capable for foundational material.

The Apostles and Prophets lay the foundation of the revelation, the truth of Christ, from which the whole Body joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, ....(Eph. 4 15) and to the Head, from whom all the Body, nourished and knit together by joints and ligaments grows with the increase which is from God.` (Col. 2: 19)

Marilyn C said:

Hi Fullness,

Remember this scripture, `For NO OTHER FOUNDATION can anyone lay than that which is laid, WHICH IS JESUS CHRIST.` (1 Cor. 3: 11)

Click to expand...

Yes, we all know that the blood of Jesus Christ, the death and resurrection of Jesus is the foundation of our faith and of the apostles' faith, but the foundation of the ancient church "building" that still stands today is the apostles who founded the churches, and Jesus is the cornerstone:

"Now therefore you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God,
and are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone" Ephesians 2:19-20

I don't even remember what I said that sparked the arguments over semantics.

keras said:

Revelation 7:14 says: the saints who pass thru the great tribulation, [of the Sixth Seal] will receive white robes.
There is no contradiction, just a series of events, good for those who love the Lord, not good for the ungodly.

Only Revelation 12:1-5 is fulfilled. The rest awaits the commencement of the final 1260 days of this era. Proved by how the faithful people will be taken to a place of safety on earth. Not happened yet.

Click to expand...

I see.

"Let's break up a passage of prophetic scripture wherever we please so that we can fit it into separate and different fulfillments of the one prophecy at different periods in time (the way many of us do with Daniel's 70 weeks, and the way many of us multiply a thousand by 2 or by 2.something). Prophetic scripture's a wonderful thing you know, it's like a transformer, we can change and bend and create lots of things from it to make it fit our finite minds, at our leisure and at our pleasure."

Fullness of the Gentiles said:

I see.

"Let's break up a passage of prophetic scripture wherever we please so that we can fit it into separate and different fulfillments of the one prophecy at different periods in time (the way many of us do with Daniel's 70 weeks, and the way many of us multiply a thousand by 2 or by 2.something). Prophetic scripture's a wonderful thing you know, it's like a transformer, we can change and bend and create lots of things from it to make it fit our finite minds, at our leisure and at our pleasure."

Click to expand...

So, you have no viable explanation for what I showed the prophesies to mean?

keras said:

So, you have no viable explanation for what I showed the prophesies to mean?

Click to expand...

The Lord Jesus Christ has given it already in Revelation chapter 12, which you have transformed into something else. Jesus was crucified, rose again and was caught up to God and to His throne, and Satan was cast out at the same time because as the scripture states, he could no longer accuse the brethren before God because of the blood of the Lamb. So he was cast out of heaven and to the earth where he went to make war first against the woman who had given birth to the Messiah, then against the rest of her seed who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Anything else that Revelation 12 does not state is a case of Christians magically transforming the Revelation of God into something else (which many Christians are good at doing when it comes to prophecy).

Timtofly said:

I am not saying they did not use the word, but it was a carry over from all the OT writings. What you think it means and what they thought it meant are two different things.

Click to expand...

Paul was a Pharisee, if anyone knew how to use the word and what it referred to it was him, and he consistently used it in reference to living and active believers in Christ...

Not just dead people from Old Testatement times.

So no. They obviously saw it as referring to the living and didn't see it only as a reference to the dead.

Timtofly said:

No one is holy or righteous is my point. Those people actually set aside to be holy would be the 11 disciples of Christ, and Paul. Abraham, David, Samuel, the prophets. God sets them aside, not set aside by other humans and not of our own volition.

The church accepts God's call, but not generally set aside.

Members join the church and thus make up the body. Saints are called out of humanity by God, for those important parts of a functioning body.

Click to expand...

Not every person sent (apostle) with the gospel has his or her name mentioned in the Bible. Natural man that walks by sight has need to try and fill in a number. We are not of the number those who count people or days . Jesus will come on the last day like a thief in the night. .

We can watch and pray like Noah but it does not change the law. No numbering people or time period (the end).

12 is a remnant of the 27 listed apostles plus the Son of man Jesus the chief apostle who was also sent by the will of the father that worked in Jesus to both will and empower him to do the good pleasure of the father and son working as one God . . All saints old and new testemtment sent by God are apostles. Abel is the first recorded apostle and first mentioned martyr.

The 12 that were set aside with 1 missing (Judas) along with the 12 tribes with 1 tribe missing (Dan). It simply represents the whole church, the bride of Christ. This is according to the golden measure found in parables using the name the father renamed his bride as set aside . . Christian a demonym using a place to represent its residents . Literally meaning . . . . residents of the city of Christ named after her husband and founder Christ.

Both the tribe of Dan and the apostle Judas are missing in Revelation Those two are set aside to represent the "spirit of judgment".The spirit of the judgment or letter of the law will not be part of the new heavens and earth.

BABerean2 said:

Replacement Theology:


Who is replacing the one people of God, with Two Peoples of God in John 10:16?


Who is replacing the one seed, with the many seeds in Galatians 3:16?


Who is replacing the word "so", with the word "then" in Romans 11:26?


Who is replacing the Church made up of all races of people, with one made up only of Gentiles?


Who is replacing Christ as the seed of Abraham through which all the families of the Earth would be blessed in Genesis 12:3, with those who reject Christ?


Who is replacing "the twelve tribes" that James addressed his letter to in James 1:1-3, with a group of Gentiles?


Those promoting the Two Peoples of God doctrine are the masters of "Replacement Theology".


Anyone who claims God did not fulfill His promises to the Jewish people at Calvary has turned John 19:30 into a fable.
It is the greatest error of your doctrine.

.

Click to expand...

Well let us look at each of your accusations and see if they are true about me or not.

A) I am not replacing one people with two. It is you! by declaring that teh New covenant as set forth in Jer. 31:31-34:

Jeremiah 31:31-34
King James Version

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.


By declaring that teh new covenant as set forth here is fulfilled you have concluded teh following:

1. All Israel and Judah has the law in their inward parts, and god is the god of the house of Israel and Judah , all Israelis.

2. Israelis no longer need to be taught of God for all of them know HIm.

So it is you who have two people of God!

B) I only accept one seed of God! Just because the bible speaks of two destinies for the church and Israel in the millenial kingdom does not make anyone a separate seed! where you came up with this baseless accusation, I don't know.

C) Another strawman you created. After the fulness of the gentiles be come in all Israel will be saved. that is openly and explicitly declared in the new covenant God has declared for the house of Israel and Judah! The real issue is why you reject that. You define Israel as believers- so who are teh gentiles here?????

D) Well if you are implying that I said the church is only Gentiles, then you failed to read my numerous posts that directly contradict this! So I have no clue who you are talking about!

E) Another straw man of your creation. I have never even implied to replace Christ.

F) Another straw man. I have never replaced the twelve tribes with Gentiles. This is ironic. Usually you are accusing me of kind of the opposite!

g) Replacement theology occurs when one says the unconditional promises God made to Israel are now somehow belonging to the church in a mystical way.

H) Well as I have asked over 24 times now- show me when God fulfilled the Covenant to Israel between 27-34 AD. Here is the New covenant God declared once gain:

Jeremiah 31:31-34
King James Version

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

If you would simply show the time when God performed these two things (writing His laws IN Israels heart, and they being His people again ) and (Jews no longer need to be taught to know God, for they all know Him). This owuld have been settled a long timer ago.

But based on your ex-cathedra proclamations I am replying to , I can only conclude one of two things:

1. You have me confused with someone else for I do not believe any of your accusations.
or
2. YOu have something far less innocent in mind in implying I believe or have said any of these things which I have not.

Fullness of the Gentiles said:

The Lord Jesus Christ has given it already in Revelation chapter 12, which you have transformed into something else. Jesus was crucified, rose again and was caught up to God and to His throne, and Satan was cast out at the same time because as the scripture states, he could no longer accuse the brethren before God because of the blood of the Lamb. So he was cast out of heaven and to the earth where he went to make war first against the woman who had given birth to the Messiah, then against the rest of her seed who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Anything else that Revelation 12 does not state is a case of Christians magically transforming the Revelation of God into something else (which many Christians are good at doing when it comes to prophecy).

Click to expand...

Revelation 12:1-5 is past history, describing how Jesus was the purpose and culmination of ancient Israel.
Revelation 12:6-17 remains to be fulfilled, during the final 3 1/2 years of this age. Proved by how the Lord will protect His faithful people from the Great Trib of the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls. They will be gathered to Jesus at His return. Matthew 24:30-31

keras said:

Revelation 12:1-5 is past history, describing how Jesus was the purpose and culmination of ancient Israel.
Revelation 12:6-17 remains to be fulfilled, during the final 3 1/2 years of this age. Proved by how the Lord will protect His faithful people from the Great Trib of the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls. They will be gathered to Jesus at His return. Matthew 24:30-31

Click to expand...

Where in Revelation 12 does it indicate the quantum leap in time between verses 1-5 and verses 6-17? The same place Daniel 9 indicates the quantum leap in time between verse 26 and verse 27?

Or is the quantum leap in time in Revelation 12 indicated in Revelation 12?

nolidad said:

Well as I have asked over 24 times now- show me when God fulfilled the Covenant to Israel between 27-34 AD. Here is the New covenant God declared once gain:

Click to expand...

And how many of those times have you ignored Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, which quote word-for-word from Jeremiah 31:31-34?


.

Fullness of the Gentiles said:

Yes, we all know that the blood of Jesus Christ, the death and resurrection of Jesus is the foundation of our faith and of the apostles' faith, but the foundation of the ancient church "building" that still stands today is the apostles who founded the churches, and Jesus is the cornerstone:

"Now therefore you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God,
and are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone" Ephesians 2:19-20

I don't even remember what I said that sparked the arguments over semantics.

Click to expand...

Hi Fullness,

Yes we seem to have gone into an interesting side line. haven`t been here before but it is stretching our thinking. I also think you are gracious and even if we see differently it is good to have to look at what all of God`s word says and learn of Him, which I`m sure we both desire.

So, Eph. 2: 19 & 20 speaks of `Apostles and Prophets.` So maybe we can enlarge on that point first.

`And He (Christ) gave some to be Apostles, some Prophets, some evangelists and some Pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the Body of Christ ,

TILL we all come to the unity of the faith and the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect (mature) man, to the measure of the fullness of Christ;

that we should no longer be children tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness by which they lie in wait to deceive, but speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the Head - Christ -

from whom the whole Body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share causes the growth of the Body for the edifying of itself in love.` (Eph. 4: 11 - 16)

I wrote is all out for it contains quite a lot of truth we need when which we can relate to Eph. 2 concerning the `apostles & prophets` mentioned there.

1. We see that `Apostles & Prophets` to the Body of Christ, (& not to Israel) are for equipping and edifying the Body till we all come to the unity of the faith.....And we are not there yet.

2. We also see that `Apostles & Prophets` are given throughout the ages by the Head of the Body for specific work. Note these are NOT CEO`s of religious organisations.

3. The work of the Apostles & prophets are `foundational,` as Eph.2 tells us. And this relates to knowing the truth and speaking it in love. Note the Apostle Paul`s ministry as a father and nursing mother. (1 Thess. 2: 7 & 11)

Any thoughts on those points?

Fullness of the Gentiles said:

Where in Revelation 12 does it indicate the quantum leap in time between verses 1-5 and verses 6-17? The same place Daniel 9 indicates the quantum leap in time between verse 26 and verse 27?

Or is the quantum leap in time in Revelation 12 indicated in Revelation 12?

Click to expand...

Rev 12:1-5 is about ancient Israel, it refers to Joseph's dream, Genesis 37:9 and Satans rebellion against God. Then, hundreds of years later; the birth and death of Jesus.
Rev 12:6 & 13-17 is about the Christian people in the last days.

You go on about 'a quantum leap of time', the nearly 2000 years that has elapsed since Jesus was here; is just that. Now we are in the last few years of this Christian era and much is prophesied to happen before Jesus comes again.
Are you not interested in what the Lord has told us will happen?

Spiritual Jew said:

Do you think Paul was mistaken when he said that the body of Christ is built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets with Christ as the chief cornerstone?

Was Jesus mistaken when He said this to Peter:

Matthew 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. 18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Now, what some obviously don't understand is that Jesus was not saying He was going to build His church just upon Peter himself, but also upon the other apostles and the prophets as well. With Himself as the chief cornerstone, of course. It is first and foremost built upon Christ, but the apostles and prophets are also part of the foundation. Paul couldn't have been more clear about that.

Click to expand...

Christ is the Rock and the subject of the foundation. Peter means stone, not rock. The church was not built on a stone, but the Rock Jesus Christ the Son of the living God. The Rock was the Atonement. Without the Atonement, there would be no church. Peter did not die on the Cross. Jesus did.