Who is "National Israel"?

chad kincham

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Because James addressed his letter to all of the twelve tribes who were his "brethren" in the "faith" in James 1:1-3, there seems to now be no distinction based on genealogy.

Paul confirms this fact in Titus 3:9.

The most important genealogy in the Bible is found in Matthew 1:1, as confirmed by Paul in Galatians 3:16.

Most of the people now alive on the planet are direct descendants of Abraham, and many are also direct descendants of Judah.

Therefore, it is very difficult to now determine who is really a "Gentile".
Most of us are of mixed heritage, just like the Samaritans.
(2) Irish People Take A DNA Test - YouTube


.

The house of Israel is who the new covenant is with, which is national Israel, the physical and genetic Israelis.

Paul makes clear in Romans 11 that God is not done with national Israel, and the bit about being spiritually Israel as a believer doesn’t apply, because we non Jew gentiles are grafted into the new covenant that Jesus brought to the house of Israel.

If being a spiritual Jew applied to salvation, we wouldn’t need grafted in as a wild olive tree branch, onto the Jewish olive tree of the house of Israel.
 
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jgr

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The house of Israel is who the new covenant is with, which is national Israel, the physical and genetic Israelis.

Paul makes clear in Romans 11 that God is not done with national Israel, and the bit about being spiritually Israel as a believer doesn’t apply, because we non Jew gentiles are grafted into the new covenant that Jesus brought to the house of Israel.

If being a spiritual Jew applied to salvation, we wouldn’t need grafted in as a wild olive tree branch, onto the Jewish olive tree of the house of Israel.

The entire human race contains the genes of physical and genetic Israelis.

Physical and genetic Israelis inform us of that reality.

Is the New Covenant with the entire human race?

Or is it with the faithful and obedient to God within the entire human race?

The answer is self-evident.

Example of the mathematical confirmation of ancestral genetic ubiquity

Abraham lineage
DNA Tests Could Fulfill God’s Promise to Abraham by Revealing Millions of Jews. But How Jewish is Jewish Enough?
Israel in all of Us? Research finds 'Jewish genes' in unusual places
Jewish-Roots Arabs in Israel
Tracing the lost tribes to Jewish communities in Africa
Nigeria's Igbo Jews: 'Lost tribe' of Israel? - CNN
http://www.worldjewishcongress.org/...-africa-has-jewish-roots-genetic-tests-reveal
https://www.jpost.com/Jewish-World/...her-claims-proof-of-tribe-of-Ephraim-in-India
https://www.jta.org/2013/05/23/life...bush-bani-israel-tribe-claims-jewish-heritage
 
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chad kincham

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And, yet, in Acts 2:16-21, Peter relates what happened on the day of Pentecost long ago to the great and dreadful day of the Lord.

Read it again.

Gods spirit being poured out in the last days is what occurred in Acts 2, and Peter adds that at some point during the last days:

Act 2:19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:

Act 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:

The sun wasn’t turned to darkness at Pentecost, but it will be when the day of the Lord COMES, and scripture shows that the day of the Lord occurs at the second coming of Jesus - and it will still be in the last days when Jesus does return.
 
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jgr

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Read it again.

Gods spirit being poured out in the last days is what occurred in Acts 2, and Peter adds that at some point during the last days:

Act 2:19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:

Act 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:

The sun wasn’t turned to darkness at Pentecost, but it will be when the day of the Lord COMES, and scripture shows that the day of the Lord occurs at the second coming of Jesus - and it will still be in the last days when Jesus does return.

Read it again.

Acts 2
16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
...
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:

Joel 2
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.

Peter quotes what was prophesied by Joel.

And confirms that the events of that Day of Pentecost long ago fulfilled Joel's prophecy.
 
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chad kincham

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The term HOUSE OF ISRAEL refers only to national and genetic Israel, who currently dwell in Israel since 1948.

The new covenant is with THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL, and the fact that all other believers have to be grafted on as wild olive tree branches, to their olive tree to be included in their covenant, proves that national and physical (genetic)
Jews are a fact.

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

And:

And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

Rom 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.

Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
 
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chad kincham

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I answered already but I never answered this part. When the disciples asked Jesus this, the Jews were still in the land of the Jews, but though they were granted a limited amount of self-governing authority, yet they were occupied and oppressed by the Romans. The kingdom of Israel was not entirely in Israel's (the Jews') hands, because it was part of the kingdom of the Romans. They were exiled around 40 years later in 70 AD.

The house of Israel was exiled long before the Jews were exiled to Babylon, and the house of Israel never returned. The house of Judah was later exiled to Babylon, and 70 years later they returned. Then they were exiled again in AD70. In 1948 the U.N created a state called Israel and the Jews went and settled in the Northern Kingdom which had never belonged to them because the U.N left most of Judah/Judea outside of the borders of "Israel".

Except they got Jerusalem back in 1967.

That was their ancestral home city.
 
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jgr

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The term HOUSE OF ISRAEL refers only to national and genetic Israel, who currently dwell in Israel since 1948.

The new covenant is with THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL, and the fact that all other believers have to be grafted on as wild olive tree branches, to their olive tree to be included in their covenant, proves that national and physical (genetic)
Jews are a fact.

Genetic Israel is found within the entire human race.

Read post 82 again.

And note that most of the linked sources are Jewish.

So physical DNA is meaningless as a criterion of who comprises God's Chosen People.

His only criterion is spiritual DNA.

Faithfulness and obedience to Him and His Son.

Exclusively.
 
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Zao is life

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Except they got Jerusalem back in 1967.

That was their ancestral home city.
They all know that unless their version of God's temple is standing again, they don't really have Jerusalem back. It's like it was for them under the Romans: "You can have limited self-government but not if your law breaks Roman law".

IMO That's not "having Jerusalem back". The greatest sign that God has not restored the house of Judah to their land or the land of their fathers is the existence of a Mosque on that spot which denies Christ as much as they do.

It's the secular Zionists who reject Christ that have restored them to the land of the fathers of the Northern kingdom of Israel instead of the Southern kingdom of Judah.

Personally, I can't see the hand of God in any of that.

BUT let them and those Christians who support the political and religious goals of people who reject Christ, all dream on. It's easy to understand why it's such a great and powerful delusion for many.
 
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Zao is life

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Yes. The angel was quoting Malachi 4:5-6 there.

Malachi 4:5
Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord: 6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

You answered your own question here, so what are you asking me? I already told you that all he was doing there was indicating that he wasn't literally Elijah. He was John the Baptist. So what? He wasn't saying that he wasn't the Elijah to come. Jesus said that later. Isn't that enough for you?

No. What is the point of this question?

He said "Elijah", but that doesn't matter because it says in verse 13 that the disciples understood that He was talking about John the Baptist.

Obviously, John the Baptist because Jesus said that they were going to kill Him just like they did the Elijah who had already come. That wouldn't make sense if He was talking about Elijah. And, of course, verse 13 removes all doubt because it says the disciples understood that He was talking about John the Baptist.

Matthew 17:12 But I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but have done to him everything they wished. In the same way the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands.” 13 Then the disciples understood that he was talking to them about John the Baptist.

Okay, I answered your 5 questions, so now you should be satisfied that I am correct (this is a joke in case you can't tell).
One more question: When the angel told Zacharias that his son would go before the Messiah in the spirit and power of Elijah, was the angel's subject John the Baptist, or Elijah?

Thanks for answering the other questions. You answered them as illogically as I thought you would ;)
 
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Read it again.

Acts 2
16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
...
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:

Joel 2
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.

Peter quotes what was prophesied by Joel.

And confirms that the events of that Day of Pentecost long ago fulfilled Joel's prophecy.
Chad's point was that the Day of Pentecost wasn't the Great and Terrible Day of the LORD. I agree with that statement because it's obvious. Peter was referring to the fact that the disciples were talking in the tongues of the people from other nations who were present in Jerusalem on the Day of Pentecost, and were prophesying. He wasn't saying that the great and terrible Day of the LORD had come upon them.

Some prophecy regarding the last days has a partial fulfillment in time but the prophecy itself is referring ultimately to the last days, and since in a sense you are correct in saying that we have been living in the last days since Calvary, Joel's prophecy ultimately refers to the last days of the last days.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Read it again.

Gods spirit being poured out in the last days is what occurred in Acts 2
Right, that's mainly what I had in mind, but I know he said other things besides just that.

and Peter adds that at some point during the last days:

Act 2:19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
This was already at least starting to happen on the day of Pentecost, though I acknowledge it's something that can happen on an ongoing basis or maybe again more frequently before the second coming of Christ. The following shows that the signs and wonders prophesied by Joel were already at least starting to happen on the day of Pentecost and the days immediately following:

Acts 2:42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers. 43 And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.

Act 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:

The sun wasn’t turned to darkness at Pentecost, but it will be when the day of the Lord COMES, and scripture shows that the day of the Lord occurs at the second coming of Jesus - and it will still be in the last days when Jesus does return.
Yeah, I get what you're saying about this verse. I can see that as possibly referring to the same thing as verses like Matthew 24:29 and Revelation 6:12 which relate to the second coming of Christ.

I often make the point that the day of the Lord that Paul wrote about in 1 Thess 5:1-6 and that Peter wrote about in 2 Peter 3:10-12 happens at the second coming of Christ, so I don't have a problem with interpreting that great and notable day of the Lord when the sun turns into darkness and the moon into blood as being the day Christ returns. That would make sense to then relate Acts 2:20 to verses like Matthew 24:29 and Revelation 6:12.

Notice in Acts 2:21, where he quoted Joel 2:32, that he said "And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved". So, I can allow that he was talking about an ongoing fulfillment starting on the day of Pentecost going forward to the second coming of Christ with everyone who calls on the name of the Lord being saved throughout that time up until the day He returns.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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One more question: When the angel told Zacharias that his son would go before the Messiah in the spirit and power of Elijah, was the angel's subject John the Baptist, or Elijah?
John the Baptist. What is the point of these questions? I'm not even sure why I'm answering them when you're not even telling me why you're asking them.

Regardless of how I answer these questions, there's no way around the fact that Jesus said that John the Baptist was the Elijah to come (Matt 11:14, Matt 17:11-13).

Thanks for answering the other questions. You answered them as illogically as I thought you would ;)
What was illogical about my answers? You, at least, acknowledge that John the Baptist partially fulfilled the prophecy, do you not? It would be illogical to disagree with that as Jesus very plainly said that John the Baptist was the Elijah to come (Matt 11:14).

Is the idea of John the Baptist fulfilling a prophecy about Elijah, even on a partial basis, logical? Of course not. So, to think that everything about that prophecy is supposed to be logical is...illogical.

By the way, I saw you created a new thread about this, but I'm not going to repeat everything there that I've already said here. I never intended to create a big debate about this. I was just trying to show how taking OT prophecies so literally as premils like yourself tend to do is not a good idea.

Clearly, at the very least, John the Baptist partially fulfilled Malachi 4:5-6, and who would have ever even imagined that being the case until Jesus said that John the Baptist was the Elijah to come? No one. Yet, despite this, premils like yourself still insist on interpreting OT prophecies very literally.
 
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Chad's point was that the Day of Pentecost wasn't the Great and Terrible Day of the LORD. I agree with that statement because it's obvious. Peter was referring to the fact that the disciples were talking in the tongues of the people from other nations who were present in Jerusalem on the Day of Pentecost, and were prophesying. He wasn't saying that the great and terrible Day of the LORD had come upon them.

Some prophecy regarding the last days has a partial fulfillment in time but the prophecy itself is referring ultimately to the last days, and since in a sense you are correct in saying that we have been living in the last days since Calvary, Joel's prophecy ultimately refers to the last days of the last days.
Yes, I agree with that and I just explained that to Chad in a different post. I had the pouring out of the Holy Spirit in mind in particular and that is what was obviously fulfilled on the day of Pentecost. There were signs and wonders already even on that day and the days immediately following, as indicated in Acts 2:43.

And, people calling on the name of the Lord and being saved wasn't something that only happened on the day of Pentecost. That is an ongoing reality, obviously.

But, I certainly would not try to say that the day of the Lord has already occurred, assuming that it's speaking of the same future day of the Lord as written about in 1 Thess 5:1-6 and 2 Peter 3:10-12, which is the day of Christ's second coming.
 
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John the Baptist. What is the point of these questions? I'm not even sure why I'm answering them when you're not even telling me why you're asking them.

Regardless of how I answer these questions, there's no way around the fact that Jesus said that John the Baptist was the Elijah to come (Matt 11:14, Matt 17:11-13).

What was illogical about my answers? You, at least, acknowledge that John the Baptist partially fulfilled the prophecy, do you not? It would be illogical to disagree with that as Jesus very plainly said that John the Baptist was the Elijah to come (Matt 11:14).

Is the idea of John the Baptist fulfilling a prophecy about Elijah, even on a partial basis, logical? Of course not. So, to think that everything about that prophecy is supposed to be logical is...illogical.

By the way, I saw you created a new thread about this, but I'm not going to repeat everything there that I've already said here. I never intended to create a big debate about this. I was just trying to show how taking OT prophecies so literally as premils like yourself tend to do is not a good idea.

Clearly, at the very least, John the Baptist partially fulfilled Malachi 4:5-6, and who would have ever even imagined that being the case until Jesus said that John the Baptist was the Elijah to come? No one. Yet, despite this, premils like yourself still insist on interpreting OT prophecies very literally.
You've just shown by your answers to the questions how illogical your original assertion was that Elijah shall not come because John the Baptist came.
 
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Peter was preaching God's Word. Peter claims it was fulfilled. I get that. But there is still coming a day of the same magnitude. That is my point.
That's fine. I believe that Paul wrote about that day in 1 Thess 4:14-5:6 and Peter wrote about it in 2 Peter 3:3-13.

Did Christ teach Elijah will not come again at the Second Coming?
No, I don't see where He taught that Elijah would come again at the second coming. I do see where Jesus said that John the Baptist was the Elijah to come (Matt 11:14, Matt 17:11-13) as prophesied in Malachi 4:5-6.
 
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You've just shown by your answers to the questions how illogical your original assertion was that Elijah shall not come because John the Baptist came.
I don't know what you mean here. Please explain. You're trying to talk about logic here, but I'm not the one who said John the Baptist was the Elijah to come (Matt 11:14, Matt 17:11-13). Jesus said that. Are you going to call Jesus illogical?
 
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I don't know what you mean here. Please explain. You're trying to talk about logic here, but I'm not the one who said John the Baptist was the Elijah to come (Matt 11:14, Matt 17:11-13). Jesus said that. Are you going to call Jesus illogical?
What did Jesus say immediately before He said "But I say to you that Elijah has come already, and they did not know him, but have done to him whatever they desired. Likewise also the Son of man?"

What did Jesus say immediately before that?

Are you determined to continue to take away from what Jesus said by continuing to only quote one part of what He said just to be right?
 
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What did Jesus say immediately before He said "But I say to you that Elijah has come already, and they did not know him, but have done to him whatever they desired. Likewise also the Son of man?"

What did Jesus say immediately before that?

Are you determined to continue to take away from what Jesus said by continuing to only quote one part of what He said just to be right?
Apparently, you forgot what I already told you in post #53. I said "You're taking the mention of restoring all things too literally. That just had to do with the fact that John the Baptist was sent to prepare the way for the One who would restore hope to the world by providing the means for the forgiveness of sins and eternal life through His shed blood and resurrection.".

Matt 17:11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things. 12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them. 13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

So, in verse 11, my understanding of what Jesus was saying there was not to say what Elijah was going to do in the future, but rather He was indicating what the prophecy foretold that Elijah would do and then I believe He indicated that Elijah coming to restore all things had already occurred because Elijah had come already.

I've answered several of your questions, so please answer one for me. Do you at least acknowledge that John the Baptist was the Elijah to come in terms of being the Elijah who would "turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers" as written in Malachi 4:5-6?

The angel speaking to his father Zechariah certainly believed that John the Baptist was the Elijah to come who would ""turn the heart of the fathers to the children", as the following clearly shows:

Luke 1:13 But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John. 14 And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth. 15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb. 16 And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God. 17 And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.
 
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The house of Israel is who the new covenant is with, which is national Israel, the physical and genetic Israelis.

Paul makes clear in Romans 11 that God is not done with national Israel, and the bit about being spiritually Israel as a believer doesn’t apply, because we non Jew gentiles are grafted into the new covenant that Jesus brought to the house of Israel.

If being a spiritual Jew applied to salvation, we wouldn’t need grafted in as a wild olive tree branch, onto the Jewish olive tree of the house of Israel.
@chad kincham
The only part of the physical and genetic seed of Abraham that still exist and still existed as a nation at the time of Christ are the house of Judah (a.k.a "the Jews"). God calls them the house of Judah. The prophets call them the house of Judah.

The New Covenant was promised to the house of Israel and the house of Judah and established by Jesus in His blood. Those who do not have faith in the blood of Jesus for the remission of their sins are broken off from covenant relationship with God, if they are genetic seed. So you make both Jeremiah and Paul liars by your false statements.

You've denied this before, and now you've denied it again. If you continue to deny it, you're calling Jeremiah a liar, Paul a liar, John the Baptist a liar, and Jesus a liar, saying that the new covenant was promised only the the genetic seed of Abraham, regardless of whether or not they reject God's New Covenant by rejecting Christ.
 
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