A little season

DavidPT · Dec 11, 2020

Revelation 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Revelation 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

What is in question here, is the little season meant in Revelation 6:11 the same little season meant in Revelation 20:3? If they are, and can be shown that they are, that could only mean one thing, this debunks Premil, thus proves Amil sinnce Premil couldn't possibly work if the little season in both verses are speaking of the same era of time. No one would argue that the little season meant in Revelation 6:11 is meaning during a time post the 2nd coming. It is obviously meaning a time prior to the 2nd coming. And if the little season in the latter is the same little season in the former, that obviously means Premil can't work.

I tend to think these are not the same little season, thus two eras of time that happen at different times, and will try and show some reasons why I conclude this.

If we start with Revelation 6:11, what should be noted is this, this same little season the souls in heaven are told to rest during, this little season is also in effect back on earth, where during it the following occurs---their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be fulfilled. Now we have to look for Scriptures showing how and when these in question are killed, keeping in mind that a little season obviously implies a short period of time as opposed to a long period of time. For example, in Revelation 20 there are two eras of time in view, a thousand years and a little season. No one should remotely think the little season represents an era of time equal to or greater than a thousand years. No one should remotely think the little season parallels the thousand years, the fact the text makes it crystal clear that the thousand years has a starting and ending point, and that it is not until it's ending point that the little season begins.

As to the little season in Revelation 6:11, since we are looking for Scriptures speaking of a short period of time as opposed to a long period of time, it seems to me that Revelation 13:5 has the short era of time that we are seeking.

Revelation 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

42 months compared to a thousand years, for instance, would certainly be a shorter period of time. Another place where we see a possible short period of time as opposed to a long period of time is per the following.

Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Let's entertain the idea of Amil for a moment. If Amils believe this short time began 2000 years ago, and most of them do, if not all of them, and that they also think this little season in Revelation 6:11 parallels this past 2000 years, what they have done is turn a short period of time into a long period of time. Revelation 20 already proves that a thousand years is a greater period of time than a little season is, and that this little season can never parallel the time of this thousand years, yet Amils apparently think the little season meant in Revelation 6:11 is a long period of time rather than a short period of time if they have this same little season paralleing the past two thousand years, where this past 2000 years is meaning the thousand years in Revelation 20 to them.

Like I have pointed out numerous times in the past, Amil consists of one contradiction after another, too many to keep up with. I probably shouldn't have said that since this will likely be the main focus of my post by them, how dare I suggest Amil consists of one contradiction after another. It's not like I'm just saying it without showing why, and continue to show why as I type out this OP.

The following is one of the main reasons why the little season meant in Revelation 6:11 can't be the same little season meant in Revelation 20.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Let's focus on this part---and I saw the souls of them---which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands. The fact we are already told this before satan is ever loosed after the thousand years, this obviously means these saints are martyred during a time prior to the thousand years expiring. That means one of two things. Either they are martyred during a period of time before the thousand years begin, or they are martyred during the thousand years. There are no other choices. It has to be one of these.

It is obvious that when they are martyred it is meaning during the following period of time---their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled--where we are told that that happens during a little season. And the fact Revelastion 20 shows that a little season can never parallel the thousand years, the same has to be true in this case, thus telling us that the little season these are mayrtyred during is before the thousand years begin since it can't be during the thousand years nor after.

Clearly, the martyrs recorded in Revelation 20:4---which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands---are martyred during the events recorded in Revelation 13, which obviously means the beast has to ascend out of the pit first, before any of these recorded in Revelation 20:4---which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands---can even be martyred for the reasons they are martyred. They are martyred because they refused to worship the beast that had ascended out of the bottomless pit. This exposes yet another contradiction in Amil, since Amils insist that the beast doesn't ascend out of the pit until after the thousand years expire, regardless that Revelation 20:4 and everything else I presented proves that is not even remotely true.

This OP ended up lengthier than I planned. I better stop here. I have shown reasons why these little seasons happen in different eras of time. Those that might disagree, thus conclude they are referring to the same era of time, need to show why and how that is so.

Timtofly · Dec 11, 2020

DavidPT said:
6:11 is meaning during a time post the 2nd coming. It is obviously meaning a time prior to the 2nd coming. And if the little season in the latter is the same little season in the former, that obviously means Premil can't work.

Christ is already on earth prior to Satan's little season in Revelation 20. The little season in Revelation 6 is Paul's version of the second coming. Those in Paradise are glorified shortly prior to those alive and remain on earth.

A little season is a short indefinite period of time. I am surprised this little season is not defined as a short indefinite time, when the literal number 1000 is defined by the same amil as a short indefinite time period. Who ever heard of making time longer? Wait, amil like to stretch time. They stretch this little season of Satan in Revelation 20 to be the whole 1000 years, no? They claim all those deceived by Satan at the very end where deceived by Satan the whole time, or they literally move that time to a totally different point in history. This is not the same time, because in chapter 6 is is prior to the Second Coming. In Revelation 20 it is the end of what many refer to as the Second Coming and Day with the Lord, here on earth. A little season prior to and a little season prior to the end 1000+ years later. There is a period of time in between being prior to and the end, no?

DavidPT · Dec 11, 2020

Timtofly said:
Christ is already on earth prior to Satan's little season in Revelation 20. The little season in Revelation 6 is Paul's version of the second coming. Those in Paradise are glorified shortly prior to those alive and remain on earth.

A little season is a short indefinite period of time. I am surprised this little season is not defined as a short indefinite time, when the literal number 1000 is defined by the same amil as a short indefinite time period. Who ever heard of making time longer? Wait, amil like to stretch time. They stretch this little season of Satan in Revelation 20 to be the whole 1000 years, no? They claim all those deceived by Satan at the very end where deceived by Satan the whole time, or they literally move that time to a totally different point in history. This is not the same time, because in chapter 6 is is prior to the Second Coming. In Revelation 20 it is the end of what many refer to as the Second Coming and Day with the Lord, here on earth. A little season prior to and a little season prior to the end 1000+ years later. There is a period of time in between being prior to and the end, no?

Apparently, some Amils do have the little season in Revelation 6:11 meaning the same thing as the thousand years if they have both of these things taking place over the past 2000 years, the thousand years in Revelation 20 to them. That indicates that a little season in comparison to a thousand years is not a shorter period of time but is the same length of time. If that concept could work, that a little season per Revelation 6:11, meaning 42 months according to Revelation 13:5, can equal a long period of time, such as 2000 years, why doesn't that same concept work in Revelation 20 as well, that the little season after the thousand years is not really after the thousand years, but is instead during the thousand years, and that this little season is not shorter in length but is the same length as the thousand years?

Spiritual Jew · Dec 11, 2020

DavidPT said:
Revelation 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Revelation 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

What is in question here, is the little season meant in Revelation 6:11 the same little season meant in Revelation 20:3? If they are, and can be shown that they are, that could only mean one thing, this debunks Premil, thus proves Amil sinnce Premil couldn't possibly work if the little season in both verses are speaking of the same era of time. No one would argue that the little season meant in Revelation 6:11 is meaning during a time post the 2nd coming. It is obviously meaning a time prior to the 2nd coming. And if the little season in the latter is the same little season in the former, that obviously means Premil can't work.

I tend to think these are not the same little season, thus two eras of time that happen at different times, and will try and show some reasons why I conclude this.

If we start with Revelation 6:11, what should be noted is this, this same little season the souls in heaven are told to rest during, this little season is also in effect back on earth, where during it the following occurs---their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be fulfilled. Now we have to look for Scriptures showing how and when these in question are killed, keeping in mind that a little season obviously implies a short period of time as opposed to a long period of time. For example, in Revelation 20 there are two eras of time in view, a thousand years and a little season. No one should remotely think the little season represents an era of time equal to or greater than a thousand years. No one should remotely think the little season parallels the thousand years, the fact the text makes it crystal clear that the thousand years has a starting and ending point, and that it is not until it's ending point that the little season begins.

As to the little season in Revelation 6:11, since we are looking for Scriptures speaking of a short period of time as opposed to a long period of time, it seems to me that Revelation 13:5 has the short era of time that we are seeking.

Revelation 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

42 months compared to a thousand years, for instance, would certainly be a shorter period of time. Another place where we see a possible short period of time as opposed to a long period of time is per the following.

Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Let's entertain the idea of Amil for a moment. If Amils believe this short time began 2000 years ago, and most of them do, if not all of them, and that they also think this little season in Revelation 6:11 parallels this past 2000 years, what they have done is turn a short period of time into a long period of time. Revelation 20 already proves that a thousand years is a greater period of time than a little season is, and that this little season can never parallel the time of this thousand years, yet Amils apparently think the little season meant in Revelation 6:11 is a long period of time rather than a short period of time if they have this same little season paralleing the past two thousand years, where this past 2000 years is meaning the thousand years in Revelation 20 to them.

Like I have pointed out numerous times in the past, Amil consists of one contradiction after another, too many to keep up with. I probably shouldn't have said that since this will likely be the main focus of my post by them, how dare I suggest Amil consists of one contradiction after another. It's not like I'm just saying it without showing why, and continue to show why as I type out this OP.

The following is one of the main reasons why the little season meant in Revelation 6:11 can't be the same little season meant in Revelation 20.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Let's focus on this part---and I saw the souls of them---which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands. The fact we are already told this before satan is ever loosed after the thousand years, this obviously means these saints are martyred during a time prior to the thousand years expiring. That means one of two things. Either they are martyred during a period of time before the thousand years begin, or they are martyred during the thousand years. There are no other choices. It has to be one of these.

It is obvious that when they are martyred it is meaning during the following period of time---their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled--where we are told that that happens during a little season. And the fact Revelastion 20 shows that a little season can never parallel the thousand years, the same has to be true in this case, thus telling us that the little season these are mayrtyred during is before the thousand years begin since it can't be during the thousand years nor after.

Clearly, the martyrs recorded in Revelation 20:4---which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands---are martyred during the events recorded in Revelation 13, which obviously means the beast has to ascend out of the pit first, before any of these recorded in Revelation 20:4---which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands---can even be martyred for the reasons they are martyred. They are martyred because they refused to worship the beast that had ascended out of the bottomless pit. This exposes yet another contradiction in Amil, since Amils insist that the beast doesn't ascend out of the pit until after the thousand years expire, regardless that Revelation 20:4 and everything else I presented proves that is not even remotely true.

This OP ended up lengthier than I planned. I better stop here. I have shown reasons why these little seasons happen in different eras of time. Those that might disagree, thus conclude they are referring to the same era of time, need to show why and how that is so.

My goodness, David. Your post was very long, which you acknowledged. Maybe too long, but I do appreciate your effort to be thorough about this. It's probably too much for most to take in with one post. But, I somehow had the patience and attention span to read it all (it wasn't easy, though!), but I'm not sure if many others will.

Since your post is so long, it will require a long response and I decided not to address every point that you made one by one because that would take forever. Instead, I will just give you my understanding of the "short time" of Revelation 12:12 and explain why I believe it is a different time period than the "little season" of Rev 6:11 and Rev 20:3. And, yes, I do equate the little season of Rev 6:11 with the "little season" of Rev 20:3 and I'll explain why in a bit.

We know that the New Testament was not written in English but rather in Greek, so there are times when it is necessary to dig deeper for understanding by looking at the Greek text. You don't have to be a Greek expert to do that. There are tools you can find online to help show you the Greek words and their definitions for each English word in an English translation.

Anyway, let's start with looking at the Greek words translated as "short time" in Rev 12:12 and "little season" in Rev 6:11 and Rev 20:3.

Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short (Greek: oligos - Strong's G3641) time (Greek: kairos - Strong's G2540).

I have seen a number of people reference this verse who, like you, assume that this "short time" that Satan gets to try to take out his wrath on Christians after being kicked out of heaven is a literally short amount of time.

The Greek word translated as "short" there is oligos and that word can be used to refer to a relatively small number of a limited number rather than a literally small number. Here is the best example of that I could find:

Matthew 22:14 For many are called, but few (Greek: oligos) are chosen.

This is what Jesus said after telling the parable where he compared entering the kingdom of heaven (being saved) with being invited to a wedding banquet. The ones initially invited (the Jews) mostly rejected the invitation and then the invitation went out to the highways (Gentile nations) after that and many (a multitude) end up being invited.

So, what Jesus was saying there was that many are called/invited to salvation and few are chosen/saved. Therefore, we know that even though few are chosen the number of which are chosen/saved is actually a large number (many millions or however many it is). It's just relatively few compared to the overall "many" who are called.

So, with that in mind, I believe that the "short time" of Revelation 12:12 is only meant to be understood as a relatively short and limited amount of time. Satan knows that his time is limited and that Christ defeated Him and that he can't accuse believers before God in heaven anymore, and he is aware of what Revelation 20:10 says about his destiny, and he's angry about all of that.

Another way to show that the "short time" Satan gets after being cast out of heaven is not a literal short amount of time is the fact that Christ's ascension is mentioned (Rev 12:5) just prior to the description of him being cast out of heaven. There was no place for Satan and his angels in heaven anymore once Christ ascended there. Revelation 12:10 says "for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.".

Now, it's very important to consider whether or not Satan is still able to accuse us before God in heaven day and night because that will tell us a lot about the timing of him being cast out of heaven. I believe the following passage makes it abundantly clear that he cannot possibly still be accusing us before God in heaven anymore.

Romans 8:31 What, then, shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34 Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us.

Who can make any accusation against God's people? No one. That would include Satan. Can this be any more clear about that? Why can no one accuse us? Because our sins are forgiven and covered by the blood of Christ. What can anyone accuse us of when that is the case? Nothing. So, Satan was cast out of heaven long ago when Christ died, rose again and ascended to the right hand of the Father in heaven.

Now, let's look at the Greek words translated as "little season" in both Revelation 6:11 and Revelation 20:3.

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little (Greek: mikros - Strong's G3398) season (Greek: chronos - Strong's G5550), until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Revelation 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little (Greek: mikros - Strong's G3398) season (Greek: chronos - Strong's G5550)

Notice that different Greek words are translated in Rev 6:11 and Rev 20:3 as "a little season" than are translated as "a short time" in Revelation 12:12. That's very important to note. In this case, the Greek word translated as "little" in Rev 6:11 and Rev 20:3 is "mikros" and that word, unlike "oligos", means a literal small/little number. And then the Greek word translated as "season" (chronos) in those verses refers to a period of time of any length. In this case, we know it's a "little" amount of time even though we don't know exactly how long.

So, to summarize, the "short time" of Revelation 12:12 refers to Satan's limited amount of time he has been given to try to persecute Christians since he was cast out of heaven long ago. The little season he is given after the thousand years to "deceive the nations" is a literally small amount of time rather than just a limited, but not literally small, amount of time.

My post has gotten pretty long at this point as well, but there is one last point I would like to make to show why I believe Revelation 6:11 is referring to the same "little season" Revelation 20:3.

If you read Revelation 6:9-11 you can see that the timing of it is when the fifth seal is opened. I believe the book of Revelation contains several recapitulations or parallel sections that all culminate with the return of Christ. So, I see the fifth trumpet as being parallel to the fifth seal.

Notice what happens at the fifth trumpet:

Revelation 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. 2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. 3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power...11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.

We know that Revelation 20 says that the dragon, Satan, is cast into the bottomless pit for a "thousand years" and is loosed when the thousand years end. And here in this passage, at the fifth trumpet, which we agree occurs before the return of Christ, the bottomless pit is opened. It has previously been sealed and locked which is exactly what is described in Rev 20:3 which says the dragon, Satan, is cast there to "shut him up, and set a seal upon him".

So, to me, Revelation 9 is describing the time when the fifth seal is opened and the fifth trumpet sounds and the souls in heaven ask "How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?" and Satan "is loosed out of his prison" (Rev 20:7).

Notice that the figurative "locusts" described in Revelation 9 have as their king "the angel of the bottomless pit". That means the locusts are angels as well. Fallen angels. Who do the fallen angels have as their king? Satan.

Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

So, Abaddon/Apollyon (English: Destroyer) is just another name for Satan. He has many names including Lucifer, Beelzebub, that old serpent, the Devil and Satan. Abaddon or Apollyon is just another of his names. Each one describes a character trait of his. In this case it's his trait of being a destroyer of people's lives.

So, Revelation 9 shows us when Satan is loosed from the bottomless pit, which will be at the fifth trumpet (Christ returns at the seventh and last trumpet).

Spiritual Jew · Dec 11, 2020

Timtofly said:
A little season is a short indefinite period of time. I am surprised this little season is not defined as a short indefinite time, when the literal number 1000 is defined by the same amil as a short indefinite time period.

This is not true. You have misrepresented Amil for the thousandth time. Amil does NOT say that the 1000 years is "a short indefinite time period". We believe it is a long (longer than a thousand years) indefinite time period.

Do you misrepresent Amil constantly on purpose or it is by accident? Please be honest.

Who ever heard of making time longer? Wait, amil like to stretch time. They stretch this little season of Satan in Revelation 20 to be the whole 1000 years, no?

And here is yet another example of you misrepresenting Amil. Please stop trying to describe what Amil believes because you don't have a clue about that. You misrepresent Amil constantly and I don't appreciate it.

Amils do not equate Satan's little season with the 1000 years. That is ridiculous. We, just like premils, believe that Satan's little season occurs right after the 1000 years ends.

David, if you're reading this, please explain to me why you clicked "Like" on his post when he is clearly misrepresenting the Amil view here?

Timtofly · Dec 11, 2020

Spiritual Jew said:
Romans 8:31 What, then, shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34 Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us.

"No one"

This is not found in any translations. Why do you add it?

sovereigngrace · Dec 12, 2020

Spiritual Jew said:
My goodness, David. Your post was very long, which you acknowledged. Maybe too long, but I do appreciate your effort to be thorough about this. It's probably too much for most to take in with one post. But, I somehow had the patience and attention span to read it all (it wasn't easy, though!), but I'm not sure if many others will.

Since your post is so long, it will require a long response and I decided not to address every point that you made one by one because that would take forever. Instead, I will just give you my understanding of the "short time" of Revelation 12:12 and explain why I believe it is a different time period than the "little season" of Rev 6:11 and Rev 20:3. And, yes, I do equate the little season of Rev 6:11 with the "little season" of Rev 20:3 and I'll explain why in a bit.

We know that the New Testament was not written in English but rather in Greek, so there are times when it is necessary to dig deeper for understanding by looking at the Greek text. You don't have to be a Greek expert to do that. There are tools you can find online to help show you the Greek words and their definitions for each English word in an English translation.

Anyway, let's start with looking at the Greek words translated as "short time" in Rev 12:12 and "little season" in Rev 6:11 and Rev 20:3.

Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short (Greek: oligos - Strong's G3641) time (Greek: kairos - Strong's G2540).

I have seen a number of people reference this verse who, like you, assume that this "short time" that Satan gets to try to take out his wrath on Christians after being kicked out of heaven is a literally short amount of time.

The Greek word translated as "short" there is oligos and that word can be used to refer to a relatively small number of a limited number rather than a literally small number. Here is the best example of that I could find:

Matthew 22:14 For many are called, but few (Greek: oligos) are chosen.

This is what Jesus said after telling the parable where he compared entering the kingdom of heaven (being saved) with being invited to a wedding banquet. The ones initially invited (the Jews) mostly rejected the invitation and then the invitation went out to the highways (Gentile nations) after that and many (a multitude) end up being invited.

So, what Jesus was saying there was that many are called/invited to salvation and few are chosen/saved. Therefore, we know that even though few are chosen the number of which are chosen/saved is actually a large number (many millions or however many it is). It's just relatively few compared to the overall "many" who are called.

So, with that in mind, I believe that the "short time" of Revelation 12:12 is only meant to be understood as a relatively short and limited amount of time. Satan knows that his time is limited and that Christ defeated Him and that he can't accuse believers before God in heaven anymore, and he is aware of what Revelation 20:10 says about his destiny, and he's angry about all of that.

Another way to show that the "short time" Satan gets after being cast out of heaven is not a literal short amount of time is the fact that Christ's ascension is mentioned (Rev 12:5) just prior to the description of him being cast out of heaven. There was no place for Satan and his angels in heaven anymore once Christ ascended there. Revelation 12:10 says "for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.".

Now, it's very important to consider whether or not Satan is still able to accuse us before God in heaven day and night because that will tell us a lot about the timing of him being cast out of heaven. I believe the following passage makes it abundantly clear that he cannot possibly still be accusing us before God in heaven anymore.

Romans 8:31 What, then, shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34 Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us.

Who can make any accusation against God's people? No one. That would include Satan. Can this be any more clear about that? Why can no one accuse us? Because our sins are forgiven and covered by the blood of Christ. What can anyone accuse us of when that is the case? Nothing. So, Satan was cast out of heaven long ago when Christ died, rose again and ascended to the right hand of the Father in heaven.

Now, let's look at the Greek words translated as "little season" in both Revelation 6:11 and Revelation 20:3.

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little (Greek: mikros - Strong's G3398) season (Greek: chronos - Strong's G5550), until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Revelation 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little (Greek: mikros - Strong's G3398) season (Greek: chronos - Strong's G5550)

Notice that different Greek words are translated in Rev 6:11 and Rev 20:3 as "a little season" than are translated as "a short time" in Revelation 12:12. That's very important to note. In this case, the Greek word translated as "little" in Rev 6:11 and Rev 20:3 is "mikros" and that word, unlike "oligos", means a literal small/little number. And then the Greek word translated as "season" (chronos) in those verses refers to a period of time of any length. In this case, we know it's a "little" amount of time even though we don't know exactly how long.

So, to summarize, the "short time" of Revelation 12:12 refers to Satan's limited amount of time he has been given to try to persecute Christians since he was cast out of heaven long ago. The little season he is given after the thousand years to "deceive the nations" is a literally small amount of time rather than just a limited, but not literally small, amount of time.

My post has gotten pretty long at this point as well, but there is one last point I would like to make to show why I believe Revelation 6:11 is referring to the same "little season" Revelation 20:3.

If you read Revelation 6:9-11 you can see that the timing of it is when the fifth seal is opened. I believe the book of Revelation contains several recapitulations or parallel sections that all culminate with the return of Christ. So, I see the fifth trumpet as being parallel to the fifth seal.

Notice what happens at the fifth trumpet:

Revelation 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. 2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. 3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power...11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.

We know that Revelation 20 says that the dragon, Satan, is cast into the bottomless pit for a "thousand years" and is loosed when the thousand years end. And here in this passage, at the fifth trumpet, which we agree occurs before the return of Christ, the bottomless pit is opened. It has previously been sealed and locked which is exactly what is described in Rev 20:3 which says the dragon, Satan, is cast there to "shut him up, and set a seal upon him".

So, to me, Revelation 9 is describing the time when the fifth seal is opened and the fifth trumpet sounds and the souls in heaven ask "How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?" and Satan "is loosed out of his prison" (Rev 20:7).

Notice that the figurative "locusts" described in Revelation 9 have as their king "the angel of the bottomless pit". That means the locusts are angels as well. Fallen angels. Who do the fallen angels have as their king? Satan.

Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

So, Abaddon/Apollyon (English: Destroyer) is just another name for Satan. He has many names including Lucifer, Beelzebub, that old serpent, the Devil and Satan. Abaddon or Apollyon is just another of his names. Each one describes a character trait of his. In this case it's his trait of being a destroyer of people's lives.

So, Revelation 9 shows us when Satan is loosed from the bottomless pit, which will be at the fifth trumpet (Christ returns at the seventh and last trumpet).

Exceptional research.

Spiritual Jew · Dec 12, 2020

Timtofly said:
"No one"

This is not found in any translations. Why do you add it?

Do you think I made it up? It's from the NIV. Who do you think can bring any charge or accusation against God's chosen/elect? Do you think Paul asked the question as if he didn't know that no one can make any accusation against God's people? The context of the passage clearly indicates that he was saying there isn't anyone any longer who can accuse us before God.

jgr · Dec 12, 2020

Timtofly said:
"No one"

This is not found in any translations. Why do you add it?

You can find eight here.

Timtofly · Dec 12, 2020

Spiritual Jew said:
Do you think I made it up? It's from the NIV. Who do you think can bring any charge or accusation against God's chosen/elect? Do you think Paul asked the question as if he didn't know that no one can make any accusation against God's people? The context of the passage clearly indicates that he was saying there isn't anyone any longer who can accuse us before God.

So you found a translation that proves a point? It is understood that no one can condemn us, but the point of "Christ Jesus who died - more than that, who was raised to life - is at the right hand of God, and is also interceding for us." Is negated by this private interpretation added to God's Word. Satan can still accuse us, but cannot condemn us because Christ is also constantly day and night interceding for us. Do you deny this constant intercession?

Spiritual Jew · Dec 12, 2020

Timtofly said:
So you found a translation that proves a point?

I believe the translation of that verse in the NIV is accurate. If you don't think the NIV is a legitimate English translation then that is your problem, not mine.

It is understood that no one can condemn us, but the point of "Christ Jesus who died - more than that, who was raised to life - is at the right hand of God, and is also interceding for us." Is negated by this private interpretation added to God's Word. Satan can still accuse us, but cannot condemn us because Christ is also constantly day and night interceding for us. Do you deny this constant intercession?

It is because He is interceding for us that Satan cannot accuse us. In order to accuse us Satan would have to go through Christ and you are sadly mistaken if you think Satan can do that.

What exactly can Satan accuse us of, keeping in mind that all of our sins have been forgiven? Can He accuse us of sins that are forgiven? Of course not. God not only forgives but forgets our sins, so why would He allow Satan to accuse us of sins that He has forgiven and doesn't even remember?

Why do you think Paul asked "Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen?". Do you think he actually thought there would be an answer besides "No one"? Wouldn't the answer be the same as it was for his question 2 verses earlier where he asked "If God is for us, who can be against us?". The answer to that question is "no one", is it not? If you read Romans 8:31-39 is it not clear that Paul was saying that nothing at all can come against us and nothing can come between us and God when we love God and belong to Him?

Timtofly · Dec 12, 2020

Spiritual Jew said:
I believe the translation of that verse in the NIV is accurate. If you don't think the NIV is a legitimate English translation then that is your problem, not mine.

It is because He is interceding for us that Satan cannot accuse us. In order to accuse us Satan would have to go through Christ and you are sadly mistaken if you think Satan can do that.

What exactly can Satan accuse us of, keeping in mind that all of our sins have been forgiven? Can He accuse us of sins that are forgiven? Of course not. God not only forgives but forgets our sins, so why would He allow Satan to accuse us of sins that He has forgiven and doesn't even remember?

Why do you think Paul asked "Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen?". Do you think he actually thought there would be an answer besides "No one"? Wouldn't the answer be the same as it was for his question 2 verses earlier where he asked "If God is for us, who can be against us?". The answer to that question is "no one", is it not? If you read Romans 8:31-39 is it not clear that Paul was saying that nothing at all can come against us and nothing can come between us and God when we love God and belong to Him?

The point is not "no one". That is true. The point is Satan is still accusing us night and day for the last 5990 years.

Spiritual Jew · Dec 13, 2020

Timtofly said:
The point is not "no one". That is true. The point is Satan is still accusing us night and day for the last 5990 years.

Speak for yourself. He's not accusing me of anything as he doesn't have anything to accuse me of since my sins are all forgiven and covered by the blood of Christ.

Timtofly · Dec 13, 2020

Spiritual Jew said:
Speak for yourself. He's not accusing me of anything as he doesn't have anything to accuse me of since my sins are all forgiven and covered by the blood of Christ.

I am not without sin, so if you are without sin, you make God a liar, and the truth is not in you. Are you being deliberately "besides the point"?

I know I am covered with the blood of Christ. That is not even the topic you seem to be so desperately avoiding. Humans still sin, and this insane angel known as Satan keeps reminding God of that fact day and night. It has nothing to do with your personal life, except the point you think Satan is bound. What verse in Revelation 20 claims Satan is bound because of the Cross? That is some people's private interpretation adding to God's Word. Satan is only bound not to deceive the nations. Whispering thoughts into the minds of humanity questioning God's every move.

Davy · Dec 13, 2020

DavidPT said:
Revelation 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Revelation 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

What is in question here, is the little season meant in Revelation 6:11 the same little season meant in Revelation 20:3? If they are, and can be shown that they are, that could only mean one thing, this debunks Premil, thus proves Amil sinnce Premil couldn't possibly work if the little season in both verses are speaking of the same era of time. No one would argue that the little season meant in Revelation 6:11 is meaning during a time post the 2nd coming. It is obviously meaning a time prior to the 2nd coming. And if the little season in the latter is the same little season in the former, that obviously means Premil can't work.

Nah... even though both examples use the Greek word chronos, it's just referring to a fixed amount of time, a season. It's silly to rely on a single word like that to try and determine a whole doctrine, which chronos really does not give the exact amount, as overturning all the other Scripture event declarations in their Bible chapters.

DavidPT · Dec 13, 2020

Davy said:
Nah... even though both examples use the Greek word chronos, it's just referring to a fixed amount of time, a season. It's silly to rely on a single word like that to try and determine a whole doctrine, which chronos really does not give the exact amount, as overturning all the other Scripture event declarations in their Bible chapters.

It seems to me that if Amils think martyrdom of saints take place during satan's little season after the thousand years, and what is recorded in Revelation 6 also records saints being martyred during a little season, that should make both little seasons one and the same, per Amil. Why? For one, the little season in Revelation 6 is followed by the 2nd coming, thus no more martyrdom of saints ever again. Per Amil, the little season after the thousand years also leads to the 2nd coming, and that if Amils have martyrdom of saints occurring during that little season, followed by the 2nd coming, that obviously means there is no more martyrdom of saints ever again there as well.

Therefore, per Amil the little season in both accounts have to be referring to the same period of time, that would have to be the logical conclusion. Yet, I showed in the OP that these are not meaning the same events, same era of time, exposing yet another contradiction in Amil, since their view can't fit what the text requires, that one little season is before the 2nd coming, thus leads to the 2nd coming, and that the other little season is post the 2nd coming, thus doesn't lead to the 2nd coming nor involve any martyrdom of saints like the little season recorded in Revelation 6 does.

sovereigngrace · Dec 13, 2020

DavidPT said:
It seems to me that if Amils think martyrdom of saints take place during satan's little season after the thousand years, and what is recorded in Revelation 6 also records saints being martyred during a little season, that should make both little seasons one and the same, per Amil. Why? For one, the little season in Revelation 6 is followed by the 2nd coming, thus no more martyrdom of saints ever again. Per Amil, the little season after the thousand years also leads to the 2nd coming, and that if Amils have martyrdom of saints occurring during that little season, followed by the 2nd coming, that obviously means there is no more martyrdom of saints ever again there as well.

Therefore, per Amil the little season in both accounts have to be referring to the same period of time, that would have to be the logical conclusion. Yet, I showed in the OP that these are not meaning the same events, same era of time, exposing yet another contradiction in Amil, since their view can't fit what the text requires, that one little season is before the 2nd coming, thus leads to the 2nd coming, and that the other little season is post the 2nd coming, thus doesn't lead to the 2nd coming nor involve any martyrdom of saints like the little season recorded in Revelation 6 does.

Believers have always been persecuted/martyred. It is not limited to Satan's little season. It is just intensified. This correlates with the 3 1/2 years mentioned in Revelation (whether literal or figurative).

DavidPT · Dec 13, 2020

The following is to somewhat add to the OP, thus, more to take into consideration before one has fully decided that Amil is the correct position.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

I still feel this verse is key in trying to determine where the thousand years fit, mainly meaning this part---and I saw the souls of them---which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands

You have to ask yourself some questions here.

1) Does this mean they were literally physically killed at some point? If yes, that then leads to a 2nd question.

2) when are they killed? At this point, without consulting other Scriptures, we at least know when they are not killed, and that is, they are not killed during any of the events recorded in Revelation 20:7-9. That at least narrows it down for us. That leaves two options. they are either killed before the thousand years begin, or they are killed during the thousand years. The fact their martyrdom relies on the fact that the beast has to ascend out of the pit first, this narrows things down even further. This obviously means the beast can't be in the pit when they are martyred.

Per Premil, Premil does not have the beast in the pit during the thousand years. Per Premil, Premil has the beast already in the LOF during the thousand years. No conflicts with Premil, then.

Per Amil, Amil does have the beast in the pit during the thousand years. Per Amil, Amil does not have the beast already in the LOF during the thousand years. Already we see a contradiction in Amil, because Amil has the beast in the pit during the thousand years, and that Amil has the martyrdom of these saints in question, per Revelation 20:4, being martyred during this same thousand years they have the beast in the pit.

If Amils were to instead claim that their martyrdom takes place before the thousand years, they then have to explain when was there ever a time before the time of the cross, the fact that's where they typically place the beginning of the thousand years, that a first beast rose out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. And that one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast?

And not only that, they then need to also explain when was there ever a time before the time of the cross, the fact that's where they typically place the beginning of the thousand years, that a 2nd beast then rose out of earth, where these working together are the reasons why these saints in question in Revelation 20:4 are martyred because of? Not to mention, John clearly indicated that the time of those events recorded in Revelation 13 are not meaning a time before his day, but a time future to his day.

And since there are 2 little seasons mentioned in the book of Revelation, and that we already know, or should know if we don't, since these martyrs in question, per Revelation 20:4, are not martyred during the little season recorded in Revelation 20, this has to mean they are instead martyred during the little season recorded in Revelation 6, further showing they are not the same little season. And not only that, the little season in Revelation 6 has to be followed by the 2nd coming, therefore making it impossible that the little season, per Amil, recorded in Revelation 20, is also followed by the 2nd coming if these are not even referring to the same little season.

DavidPT · Dec 13, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Believers have always been persecuted martyred. It is not limited to Satan's little season. It is just intensified. This correlates with the 3 1/2 years mentioned in Revelation (whether literal or figurative).

I don't disagree that believers have always been persecuted and martyred, but I do disagree that they have always been persecuted and martyred via the beast that is yet to ascend out of the pit, and a 2nd one out of the earth. That's the ones recorded in Revelation 20:4, who worshiped not the beast, are martyred because of. That means the beast has to be out of the pit, not in the pit, when they are martyred. What about the 2nd beast that rises out of the earth? Where does it come from? Where is it when the first beast is still in the pit?

Spiritual Jew · Dec 13, 2020

Timtofly said:
I am not without sin, so if you are without sin, you make God a liar, and the truth is not in you. Are you being deliberately "besides the point"?

Are your sins forgiven or not? Do you think Satan is allowed to go through Jesus in heaven to accuse us? Please explain to me in detail how that would work.

I know I am covered with the blood of Christ. That is not even the topic you seem to be so desperately avoiding.

I'm sorry, what topic am I supposedly desperately avoiding?

A little season

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Amillennialist

Amillennialist

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Amillennialist

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Amillennialist

Well-Known Member

Amillennialist

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Amillennialist

Similar threads