70 weeks

Spiritual Jew said:

Please tell me how you interpret the following passages:

Matthew 28:16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

Ephesians 2:19 and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is the same as the mighty strength 20 he exerted when he raised Christ from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, 21 far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every name that is invoked, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. 22 And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, 23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.

Revelation 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, 6 and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.

Do you not understand that Christ's blood is what established the new covenant? How in the world can you say we're not yet in the new covenant?! That is offensive to the work of Christ on the cross!

Luke 22:20 In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.

Hebrews 9:14 How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God! 15 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

Scripture could not be more clear that we have been under the new covenant for almost 2,000 years now. How else can we be saved except under the new covenant of the shed blood of Christ? You are sadly mistaken.

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You have a separation from reality, a cognitive dissonance, when you say Jesus is reigning now and we are now in the new Covenant.
All those Bible quotes tell us that Jesus has the authority, but He has not yet Returned as King of Kings and the new Covenant is cut between Christians and God, but not yet fully implemented.
These truths are plain to see, just look around!

Douggg said:

From my many discussions/debates/research I have had with the Jews themselves at their sites, about the meaning of the messiah, and what they expect of him, much of which is summarized by their Jewish theologian the Rambam. Since 2004.

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According to John, your Rambam qualifies as an antichrist.

Does antichrist know the meaning of messiah?

jgr said:

According to John, your Rambam qualifies as an antichrist.

Does antichrist know the meaning of messiah?

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The Rambam was never a Christian to start with, who left Christianity to deny Jesus - which is the basis for someone who is an antichrist. So no the Rambam is not an antichrist. The spirit at work in the world though is antichrist, which all who actively oppose Jesus are impacted by that spirit.

The Rambam is an acronym Maimonides - Wikipedia

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The person who will become the Antichrist - why doesn't he just read or hear everything about the antichrist and avoid being him?

The reason is that he is a Jew and his religion is Judaism - therefore, he puts zero credibility to what Christianity say regarding there being an Antichrist.

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The Antichrist for certain knows what the Jewish beliefs are regarding the messiah.

Douggg said:

You are arguing over something meaningless, because the vision of the little horn is time of the end, to happen in the 7 year 70th week.


I gave you a specific verse Daniel 11:35 of the time of end being a time appointed regarding the visions Daniel recorded.

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These are two different prophecies here relating to two different times and two different people. You attribute to Christ what pertains to the wicked one, and you attribute to the wicked one what pertains to Christ. Dispensationalism is totally convoluted.

sovereigngrace said:

These are two different prophecies here relating to two different times and two different people. You attribute to Christ what pertains to the wicked one, and you attribute to the wicked one what pertains to Christ. Dispensationalism is totally convoluted.

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I am Endtimes Eventism.

Douggg said:

The Rambam was never a Christian to start with, who left Christianity to deny Jesus - which is the basis for someone who is an antichrist. So no the Rambam is not an antichrist. The spirit at work in the world though is antichrist, which all who actively oppose Jesus are impacted by that spirit.

The Rambam is an acronym Maimonides - Wikipedia

__________________________________

The person who will become the Antichrist - why doesn't he just read or hear everything about the antichrist and avoid being him?

The reason is that he is a Jew and his religion is Judaism - therefore, he puts zero credibility to what Christianity say regarding there being an Antichrist.

__________________________________

The Antichrist for certain knows what the Jewish beliefs are regarding the messiah.

Click to expand...

Nothing about "a Christian to start with".

Every verse describes your Rambam.

1 John 2:18
Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
1 John 2:22
Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
1 John 4:3
And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
2 John 1:7
For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

jgr said:

1 John 2:18
Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

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You left out the verse....

19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

The Rambam did not go out from Christianity. He was never a Christian.

Yesha said:

How are you concluding that a gap must exist?

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I'm concluding it mainly based on verse 27, and the fact I'm convinced that everything in that verse is pertaining to the 70th week. The problem, one reason why we oftentimes get nowhere in these discussions is because the side that sees these 70 weeks as gapless, pretty much refuse to consider that all of verse 27 pertains to the 70th week. No reasonable person, if agreeing that all of verse 27 is meaning the 70th week, is then going to argue that the 70 weeks involve no gaps. If one inserts Christ into verse 27, while at the same time agreeing all of verse 27 pertains to the 70th week, how then are they going to make this part fit without it involving a gap-----and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate?

Let's see if it might work without it involving a gap. The following is assuming Christ is meant in this verse and that the entire verse pertains to events during the 70th week.

And Christ shall confirm the covenant with many for one week during the 70th week: and in the midst of the 70th week Christ shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations someone shall make it desolate the remainder of the 70th week, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

or this instead---


And Christ shall confirm the covenant with many for one week during the 70th week: and in the midst of the 70th week Christ shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,(insert a gap here) and for the overspreading of abominations someone shall make it desolate the remainder of the 70th week, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

To me, only the latter would be agreeing with the text if Christ is meant in verse 27 and that the entire verse pertains to events transpiring during the 70th week.

Or if not this, since this at least proves there would have to be a gap no matter what, if all of verse 27 is pertaining to the 70th week----Christ is not meant in verse 27, thus no gap in the middle of the 70th week, but that the gap is instead between the 69th and 70th week since it wouldn't make sense to apply verse 27 immediatedly after the first 69 weeks if nothing in verse 27 pertains to Christ.

Douggg said:

I am Endtimes Eventism.

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You totally avoided my point - again. These are two different prophecies here relating to two different times and two different people. You attribute to Christ what pertains to the wicked one, and you attribute to the wicked one what pertains to Christ.

DavidPT said:

I'm concluding it mainly based on verse 27, and the fact I'm convinced that everything in that verse is pertaining to the 70th week. The problem, one reason why we oftentimes get nowhere in these discussions is because the side that sees these 70 weeks as gapless, pretty much refuse to consider that all of verse 27 pertains to the 70th week. No reasonable person, if agreeing that all of verse 27 is meaning the 70th week, is then going to argue that the 70 weeks involve no gaps. If one inserts Christ into verse 27, while at the same time agreeing all of verse 27 pertains to the 70th week, how then are they going to make this part fit without it involving a gap-----and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate?

Let's see if it might work without it involving a gap. The following is assuming Christ is meant in this verse and that the entire verse pertains to events during the 70th week.

And Christ shall confirm the covenant with many for one week during the 70th week: and in the midst of the 70th week Christ shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations someone shall make it desolate the remainder of the 70th week, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

or this instead---


And Christ shall confirm the covenant with many for one week during the 70th week: and in the midst of the 70th week Christ shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,(insert a gap here) and for the overspreading of abominations someone shall make it desolate the remainder of the 70th week, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

To me, only the latter would be agreeing with the text if Christ is meant in verse 27 and that the entire verse pertains to events transpiring during the 70th week.

Or if not this, since this at least proves there would have to be a gap no matter what, if all of verse 27 is pertaining to the 70th week----Christ is not meant in verse 27, thus no gap in the middle of the 70th week, but that the gap is instead between the 69th and 70th week since it wouldn't make sense to apply verse 27 immediatedly after the first 69 weeks if nothing in verse 27 pertains to Christ.

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It is impossible debating with you. You cherry-pick what you respond to. When someone submits arguments that expose your hermeneutics you skip around them. Please address:

Daniel 9:2 says: “In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem. And I set my face unto the Lord God, to seek by prayer and supplication, with fasting, and sackcloth, and ashes.”

Are these seventy years linear, congruent and sequential?

keras said:

You know it doesn't, but scripture surely does not say the Messiah is cut off after 3 1/2 years, either.

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I already said that it doesn't specify how long after. But, what it definitely doesn't say is that He is cut off at the end of the 69th week. It says He is cut off after the 69th week. That would place His death within the 70th week. Very simple.

Which one do people consider the most logical and correct? On, or immediately after the 69th 'week', or some undefined, hazy period later?

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What does on the 69th week mean? It clearly says after. You need to accept that. And, once again, it doesn't say how long after. What is the most likely time period after the 69th week that He was cut off. That would be 3 1/2 years because of what it says here:

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

This is referring to Jesus confirming the new covenant with many during the 70th week. In the midst of the 70th week He caused the sacrifice and oblation (offering) to cease.

Here is the New Testament scripture which shows how Jesus caused the animal sacrifices and offerings of the old covenant to cease having any meaning by way of His shed blood of the new covenant.

The new covenant was established by His blood.

Hebrews 9:20 He said, “This is the blood of the covenant, which God has commanded you to keep.”

Luke 22:20 "In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.

When He died the curtain or veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. This signified the end of the old covenant and beginning of the new covenant.

Matthew 27:50 And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit. 51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split...

By making the old covenant obsolete with His death, Jesus put an end to the old covenant sacrifices and offerings as they no longer had any purpose at that point. There were only ever intended to foreshadow His once for all sacrifice.

Hebrews 9:26 Otherwise Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Hebrews 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. 2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. 3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. 5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: 6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure. 7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. 8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; 9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all....16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; 17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. 18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

keras said:

You have a separation from reality, a cognitive dissonance, when you say Jesus is reigning now and we are now in the new Covenant.
All those Bible quotes tell us that Jesus has the authority, but He has not yet Returned as King of Kings and the new Covenant is cut between Christians and God, but not yet fully implemented.
These truths are plain to see, just look around!

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What's plain to me is that you refuse to acknowledge what passages like Matthew 28:16-18, Ephesians 2:19-23 and Revelation 1:5-6 clearly say about Christ's current status as the Ruler and King of the Universe. Your carnal way of thinking prevents you from seeing that. Just because He isn't ruling like a dictator and forcing people to obey Him, you can't comprehend how He could be reigning now. But scripture says He is. And scripture says we are in His kingdom now.

Colossians 1:13 For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

keras said:

You have a separation from reality, a cognitive dissonance, when you say Jesus is reigning now and we are now in the new Covenant.
All those Bible quotes tell us that Jesus has the authority, but He has not yet Returned as King of Kings and the new Covenant is cut between Christians and God, but not yet fully implemented.
These truths are plain to see, just look around!

Click to expand...

I have never heard anything more outlandish in my life. Repeated Scripture shows that Christ is reigning now! He is reigning upon high now! He is King! He is Lord. All power and authority belongs to Him now. Your false teaching causes you to dethrone Christ from His sovereign place reigning over His enemies today.

He testified after His resurrection: “All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth” (Matthew 28:18). This is sovereign kingship! He holds this today upon His Father's throne. Him and the Father are one spiritually in authority.

How much more power than “all power ... in heaven and in earth” does He need to exercise power and authority over His enemies?

This proves that Christ has already come and now exercises all power and authority today over all mankind. It means: He carries the Father's divine authority. He is currently enthroned. This is Sovereign kingship! He holds this today upon His Father's throne as God and upon David's throne as Messiah. Him and the Father are one spiritually in authority.

John says in Revelation 3:7, “These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath (present active particle) the key (or authority) of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth.”

He holds all power (without qualification). After all, He is God! God either causes or permits - as He is God and He is sovereign. Simple! That is an explicit biblical truth and a Christian fundamental. The powerful language that accompanies the mention of Christ holding the key of David proves that this is referring to His majestic power and might. It says, “he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth.” This speaks of spiritual power. The key allows Christ to sovereignly open and shut in a way that no man can thwart or override.

He reigns today over the seen and the unseen world making every power and every authority “subject unto him.”

Heaven’s authority is bestowed upon Christ. He is God! Colossians 2:9-10, 14-15 confirms: "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power … Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled (or divested or disarmed) principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.”

He rules intimately over His spiritual kingdom as Messiah and sovereignly over the physical kingdoms of the world and over all mankind as God.

He rules intimately over His spiritual kingdom as Saviour and sovereignly over the physical kingdoms of the world and over all mankind as Lord.

1 Peter 3:22 says, that Christ, “who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God (now!!!); angels and authorities and powers being (currently!!!) made subject unto him.”

Without a doubt Christ is reigning over His enemies since the resurrection, waiting for their final predetermined put down. Those who question Christ’s current reign do great assault upon the truth of God’s Word and undermine the current sovereign kingly position that He now assuredly holds. They also circumvent clear New Testament writings that teach Christ is reigning now.

1 Timothy 6:13-16 says, “I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession; That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate (dunastes or ruler, great authority or mighty), the King of kings, and Lord of lords; Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.”

He is going to reveal to mankind, time, and to the natural, what He is now in heaven, the invisible realm and in eternity. He "is (indeed) the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords.”

This all confirms my previous contention after years of debating this matter in my 13 major reasons why I abandoned the Premil doctrine: Premil is constantly exalting the power and influence of Satan and diluting the sovereign power and influence of Christ. That is nowhere more evident than in their constant rubbishing of Christ’s current kingship over His enemies at the right hand of majesty on high. Whether they mean to or not, Premils are always highlighting what Satan is doing in our day instead of what Christ is doing. Premil portrays a BIG devil and a small god, Amil has a small devil and a BIG God. In Premil, Satan seems sovereign in this age and God is curtailed. Premils are always lauding the ability of Satan since the cross. In Amil, Christ is sovereign and Satan is curtailed. Amils are always lauding the ability of Christ since the cross. As a consequence, Premil portrays an impotent beat-down New Testament Church, whereas Amil sees a victorious potent New Testament Church invading the nations with the good news of Christ and subjugating the powers of darkness as they do so. In Amil Christ reigns over all creation as God and His new creation as Saviour.

If Christ is not already King of kings, then neither is He already Lord of lords. But Revelation 17:14 tell us: "These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful."

This doesn't say He will eventually become Lord of lords and King of kings. It rather says that He is already that.

sovereigngrace said:

You attribute to Christ what pertains to the wicked one, and you attribute to the wicked one what pertains to Christ.

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So you are saying there is a wicked one in Daniel 9's 70 weeks? What verse ?

Douggg said:

You left out the verse....

19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

The Rambam did not go out from Christianity. He was never a Christian.

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An antichrist three times over rather than four times over.

Is still an antichrist.

Douggg said:

So you are saying there is a wicked one in Daniel 9's 70 weeks? What verse ?

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No. Anything of the enemy is the wicked one. Daniel 9 is speaking of the Messiah. It also speaks of the Roman soldiers destroying the city of Jerusalem. The temple will be left desolate forever, not rebuilt as Dispys allege.

sovereigngrace said:

I never heard anything more outlandish in my life. Repeated Scripture shows that Christ is reigning now! He is reigning upon high now! He is King! He is Lord. All power and authority belongs to Him now. Your false teaching causes you to dethrone Christ from His sovereign place reigning over His enemies today.

He testified after His resurrection: “All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth” (Matthew 28:18). This is sovereign kingship! He holds this today upon His Father's throne. Him and the Father are one spiritually in authority.

How much more power than “all power ... in heaven and in earth” does He need to exercise power and authority over His enemies?

This proves that Christ has already come and now exercises all power and authority today over all mankind. It means: He carries the Father's divine authority. He is currently enthroned. This is Sovereign kingship! He holds this today upon His Father's throne as God and upon David's throne as Messiah. Him and the Father are one spiritually in authority.

John says in Revelation 3:7, “These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath (present active particle) the key (or authority) of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth.”

He holds all power (without qualification). After all, He is God! God either causes or permits - as He is God and He is sovereign. Simple! That is an explicit biblical truth and a Christian fundamental. The powerful language that accompanies the mention of Christ holding the key of David proves that this is referring to His majestic power and might. It says, “he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth.” This speaks of spiritual power. The key allows Christ to sovereignly open and shut in a way that no man can thwart or override.

He reigns today over the seen and the unseen world making every power and every authority “subject unto him.”

Heaven’s authority is bestowed upon Christ. He is God! Colossians 2:9-10, 14-15 confirms: "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power … Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled (or divested or disarmed) principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.”

He rules intimately over His spiritual kingdom as Messiah and sovereignly over the physical kingdoms of the world and over all mankind as God.

He rules intimately over His spiritual kingdom as Saviour and sovereignly over the physical kingdoms of the world and over all mankind as Lord.

1 Peter 3:22 says, that Christ, “who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God (now!!!); angels and authorities and powers being (currently!!!) made subject unto him.”

Without a doubt Christ is reigning over His enemies since the resurrection, waiting for their final predetermined put down. Those who question Christ’s current reign do great assault upon the truth of God’s Word and undermine the current sovereign kingly position that He now assuredly holds. They also circumvent clear New Testament writings that teach Christ is reigning now.

1 Timothy 6:13-16 says, “I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession; That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate (dunastes or ruler, great authority or mighty), the King of kings, and Lord of lords; Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.”

He is going to reveal to mankind, time, and to the natural, what He is now in heaven, the invisible realm and in eternity. He "is (indeed) the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords.”

This all confirms my previous contention after years of debating this matter in my 13 major reasons why I abandoned the Premil doctrine: Premil is constantly exalting the power and influence of Satan and diluting the sovereign power and influence of Christ. That is nowhere more evident than in their constant rubbishing of Christ’s current kingship over His enemies at the right hand of majesty on high. Whether they mean to or not, Premils are always highlighting what Satan is doing in our day instead of what Christ is doing. Premil portrays a BIG devil and a small god, Amil has a small devil and a BIG God. In Premil, Satan seems sovereign in this age and God is curtailed. Premils are always lauding the ability of Satan since the cross. In Amil, Christ is sovereign and Satan is curtailed. Amils are always lauding the ability of Christ since the cross. As a consequence, Premil portrays an impotent beat-down New Testament Church, whereas Amil sees a victorious potent New Testament Church invading the nations with the good news of Christ and subjugating the powers of darkness as they do so. In Amil Christ reigns over all creation as God and His new creation as Saviour.

If Christ is not already King of kings, then neither is He already Lord of lords. But Revelation 17:14 tell us: "These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful."

This doesn't say He will eventually become Lord of lords and King of kings. It rather says that He is already that.

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Amen! We do not have to wait for Jesus to become our King, He is the King now and has been for almost 2,000 years already. This is what bothers me the most about premil. It denies the current kingship of Christ and denies that He currently reigns over all of heaven and earth, as He said Himself in Matthew 28:18, and He currently has all things under His feet just as Paul said in Ephesians 1:22.

And premil denies that Christ's death and resurrection had much, if any, impact on Satan, which is completely false as many passages, such as Hebrews 2:14-15 and 1 John 3:8, indicate. In 1 John 3:8 it says He came to destroy the works of the devil. Did He fail to accomplish that? Of course not! He said He accomplished all that the Father had sent Him to do.

It isn't possible for Him to have any more power and authority than He does now, so why are premils waiting for Him to come and reign on earth in the same exact way that the Pharisees mistakenly thought that the Messiah should reign? If someone believes a doctrine that agrees with the Pharisees about the nature of the kingdom of God then they need to reconsider their doctrine.

Spiritual Jew said:

Amen! We do not have to wait for Jesus to become our King, He is the King now and has been for almost 2,000 years already. This is what bothers me the most about premil. It denies the current kingship of Christ and denies that He currently reigns over all of heaven and earth, as He said Himself in Matthew 28:18, and He currently has all things under His feet just as Paul said in Ephesians 1:22.

And premil denies that Christ's death and resurrection had much, if any, impact on Satan, which is completely false as many passages, such as Hebrews 2:14-15 and 1 John 3:8, indicate. In 1 John 3:8 it says He came to destroy the works of the devil. Did He fail to accomplish that? Of course not! He said He accomplished all that the Father had sent Him to do.

It isn't possible for Him to have any more power and authority than He does now, so why are premils waiting for Him to come and reign on earth in the same exact way that the Pharisees mistakenly thought that the Messiah should reign? If someone believes a doctrine that agrees with the Pharisees about the nature of the kingdom of God then they need to reconsider their doctrine.

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Very well put! The pattern here is that Premillers make sweeping statements, but when pressed, are unable to support their opinions with hard Scripture. When Amils present clear Scripture, Premils duck around it. I have witnessed this for 20 years on several boards.

Christian Gedge said:

I can't believe you are saying this! Ive heard futurists say that some clauses of Daniel 9:24 await fulfillment, but never the third clause. Christ made full atonement for the world when he died. This is fundamental to all Christians.

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It also happened before the creation of the world. It was in effect for 1000 years before Adam let sin into the world. It was in effect for 4000 years between Adam and the Cross. So it was already in effect when Daniel wrote chapter 9. To God it was finished before it was necessary.

DavidPT said:

What a lot of you don't grasp or seem to want to grasp, the way you are understanding some of these things, which is basically how I'm understanding some of these things, can actually work with a gap in the 70 weeks.

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I know David. It's just that (as I've said before) in the same way that I can't see why a thousand years should be taken as symbolic of thousands of years without mentally inserting the idea into the text of Revelation 20, so I can't see why we should insert a gap between the 69th and 70th week (or between the 69th and a half week and the final part of the week) unless we mentally insert the idea into the text.

I also said that Amil has a lot more Biblical reason, given passages like 2 Peter 3:10-13 (and a number of others) to mentally insert a symbolic meaning of a thousand years into Revelation 20 than we have to cut-'n-paste any part of the 70 weeks of Daniel's prophecy.

Because of the reason those souls of Revelation 20 were beheaded (and for a number of other reasons which I gave in that other thread I started) I don't believe Amil is correct in mentally inserting a symbolic meaning of the thousand years into the text. Even more so I don't believe anyone is correct for mentally inserting a cut-'n-paste into any part of Daniel's 70 weeks.