fwGod
Well-Known Member
You being Amil, for all I knew you connected it with something preterist. So I needed clarification.No, not something else. That's the first coming of Christ that all of us here believe in, including me.
And I in one of my previous posts gave the reference of the disciples asking Jesus when he would be coming at the end of the age... ie, the coming of Christ. Which you totally ignored.His second coming is not ever specifically called "the second coming of Christ". One time it refers to Him appearing a second time (Heb 9:28).
Because I'm not Amil.When He came almost 2,000 years ago that was His first coming. Why do you not accept that "the coming of the Lord" referenced in 1 Thess 4:15 is His second coming?
Rev is the immediate second coming. The Mat text is not known how long afterward of the second coming.Let's put this method of interpretation to the test. I'm talking about the method of interpretation you're using here which says that if one detail in one passage is missing from another passage then the two passages can't be speaking of the same event.
I assume you believe that Matthew 24:29-31 and Revelation 19:11-21 are both speaking of the same event, the second coming of Christ, right?
You are reading both texts as if the Mat text immediately follows Rev 19.
Did you see text in Rev 19 that in any way is similar to Mat.24:29-31?Well, there is no mention of the gathering of the elect in Revelation 19:11-21, so that means Matthew 24:29-31 can't be referring to the same event as Revelation 19:11-21, right?
No. It's just three verses. The book of Matthew was written to Jews who'd be familiar with the passages from old testament texts. (I won't continue that because it'd derail the thread. And make this post too long. Do your own study on it if you need clarification.)
The entire account in Revelation of Jesus Second Coming takes up all of that chapter.
What Mat does is hit the highlights while Revelation gives more detail so the time between the arrival of Christ and when he calls the elect to him is extended compared to what it says in Matthew.
The Second Coming of Christ involves him defeating all of the enemy and thoroughly clearing the earth of them before the elect in a place of protection are called to him. Revelation 20:1-6 is the binding of satan for one thousand years.
Rev 20 only hints that during those thousand years the elect along with all the nations will live and perform their various duties while Jesus is on the earthly throne.
The discussion has been between Rev.19 and 1 Thes.4 and 5.At least, that would be true using the same kind of logic you're using to conclude that Revelation 19:11-21 can't refer to the time of the rapture.
You have brought in Mat.24:29-31 which has different content in it. So it's not like Rev.19.
When comparing each individual text, each will determine where it fits in the overall plan of God.
Yes. Because the context only speaks of the rapture event of the believers being caught up to be with the Lord.You mean other than the reference to "the coming of the Lord" in 1 Thess 4:15? I guess that's some other coming of Christ besides the second coming?
2 Thes.1:7-8 is the second coming, and the destruction of the evil ones.I'm saying that passages like 1 Thess 4:13-5:6, 2 Thess 1:7-10, Matt 24:29-31 and Rev 19:11-21 are all referring to the second coming of Christ.
2 Thes.2:1 begins his further teaching on the rapture which Paul spoke of in 1 Thes.4:13-18.
Mat.24:29-31 and Rev.19:11-14 are not the same events.
Yes I am. Aren't you?Are you just completely oblivious to any view but your own?
It must be that you equate that to being converted.Do you perhaps have a reading comprehension problem?
Wait a minute.. all this time you've rejected many times with harsh disgust all that I've said that I believe.. I've not ever asked you to or questioned you why you don't understand what I believe.. but now you are concerned that I'm not understanding what you say that you believe?Is that the reason why you're not understanding what I'm telling you about what I believe?
That's a double standard.
I'm not required to understand what you believe, I totally reject what you believe. What is this discussion for? Neither of us is going to change what we each believe?
The unwritten part that you left out is that you consider it to happen on the same day of the second coming.I said that I believe 1 Thess 4:13-5:9 is one narrative which speaks both of what happens to believers on the day Christ returns (caught up to meet the Lord in the air)
But there is no text to describe the second coming in any of 1 Thes. 4 or 5. Not anywhere in the entire book of 1 or 2 Thes.
The text does not say that it's the same day. You are assuming that it does. You are making it say what it doesn't.and also what happens to unbelievers on that same day He returns ("sudden destruction" comes upon them from which "they shall not escape").
The testimony was believed on the day that the testimony was given. That the Thessalonian saints will be with Paul in heaven, then come with Jesus in the second coming to take vengeance on all who are on earth who don't know God. That matches up with Revelation 19.2 Thess 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
To be glorified in the saints.. my Bible has the reference of 1 Cor.3:13.Do you believe that verse 10 of this passage refers to what will happen at the rapture,
The dot dot dot is not in the Bible verse to separate "believe" and "in that day". That's you working so hard to get the Bible to seem to agree with your Amil theology.which is that Christ will "be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe...in that day"?
That's an assumption.If so,
That's a hope to lead me into the Amil thinking.what do verses 7-9 say will also happen on that day?
2 Thes.1:4-5 is present day (their present day) before the rapture. The love and the persevering even as the apostle Paul did in Rev.1:9, and what Jesus said to the Philadelphia church 3:10. Even as Paul said to the Thessalonian church in 2 Thes.1:3.
Then Paul picked up again in 2 Thes.2:1 to teach again in the rapture in 1-7.
Where does 1 Thes.4:13-18 and 5:9-11 use the words "second coming"?.Where does Revelation 19 use the words "second coming"?
Does 1 Thes.4:13-18 and 5:9-11 say anything about Him coming to the earth?Revelation 19 says anything about Him coming to the earth.
Revelation 19:15 "He rules them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God." Anyone who's ruled people and tread the wine press does so while on the earth. Rev.20:4 "Those who has not received the mark of the beast came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years."
Even so Jesus ministry was directed to the Jews, his own people first. It was only the leaders who poo-pooed Jesus. Every other Jew crowded around him and thousands gathered to hear him preach and teach.What did Jesus say about the Jewish leaders who didn't believe in Matthew 23?
You forget all the Jews that he ministered to? Only a very few Gentiles requested anything of Jesus.Why do you give them special treatment when Jesus Himself didn't?
God being no respecter of person's means that he treats all alike.. you are asking why the Jews should be given as much grace and loving consideration as the Gentiles.Of course, we want all Jewish unbelievers to repent and believe just like all unbelievers, but God is not a respecter of persons. Why are you?
The Jews are the natural olive tree, not the Gentiles. When the Gentiles got the same experience as on the day of Pentecost Peter then said that it was because God is no respecter of person's. Before that he and all Jews considered all Gentiles to be compared to the unkosher foods forbidden to eat. Jesus called the Syrophoenician woman a dog.
Clearly.. the question should be.. why do the Gentiles get special treatment from God?
On the contrary, 1 Thes.4:13-18 has nothing in common with Mat.24:29-31. Nor do either have anything in common with Rev.19.Both speak of a gathering of believers at the coming of Christ. I would say 1 Thess 4:13-18 has just as much in common with Matthew 24:29-31 as Revelation 19:11-21 does, yet you choose to only see Revelation 19:11-21 as being the same event and not 1 Thess 4:13-18. That seems very selective on your part.
To be selective is to think other than what the Bible indicates as you- the Amil theology does, that all have something in common with each other.
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