The new covenant was given to Israel, not Gentiles

HARK! said:

...and 3 verses down...

(CLV) Ro 3:31
Are we, then, nullifying law through faith? May it not be coming to that! Nay, we are sustaining law

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What is it that is misunderstood?
Established in the law....It is not by their righteousness of MOSES law.
De 9:5 Not for thy righteousness, or for the uprightness of thine heart, dost thou go to possess their land: but for the wickedness of these nations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee, and that he may perform the word which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
De 9:6 Understand therefore, that the LORD thy God giveth thee not this good land to possess it for thy righteousness; for thou art a stiffnecked people.
The new covenant was made with Abraham 400 years before the law.

HARK! said:

(CLV) Dt 6:25
So it shall come to be righteousness for us when we observe to do all this instruction before Yahweh our Elohim, just as He had enjoined on us.

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Where is the misunderstanding
De 9:5 Not for thy righteousness, or for the uprightness of thine heart, dost thou go to possess their land: but for the wickedness of these nations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee, and that he may perform the word which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
De 9:6 Understand therefore, that the LORD thy God giveth thee not this good land to possess it for thy righteousness; for thou art a stiffnecked people.

Moses law made them righteous before men. Not God . If they were not even righteous before the nations, God was blasphened in keeping his covenant promises to the fathers. He's blasphemed as a liar if he doesn't.

Ro 2:24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.

HARK! said:

No it wasn't. That was the Abrahmic Covenant.

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Two covenants were made with Abraham. Genesis 15, and then in Gen 17.
The covenant to his seed of the fourth generation is found in Gen 15. This covenant excludes isaac, Jacob and Joseph. Genesis 17 is established in Isaac, the first generation of his seed. Read the covenants. Abraham, is told he would die. Joseph also being the third generation would die.
Ex 13:19 And Moses took the bones of Joseph with him: for he had straitly sworn the children of Israel, saying, God will surely visit you; and ye shall carry up my bones away hence with you.
This is why Abraham was tested concerning the resurrection. He was not going to inherit the land until after he was dead.
Gen 15:13 And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;
14 And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance.

Abe Isaac and jacob and jacobs children would all be dead when this covenant (inheritance)was given.

15 And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age.
16 But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.
Ex 1:6 And Joseph died, and all his brethren, and all that generation.
Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

ralliann said:

Hear the law
Gal 4:21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
God's promises to Abraham are law, not just Moses law.

Israel's righteousness before men by Moses law IS NOT the righteousness whereby the promises are attained
De 6:25 And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us.

It is because of God's righteousness to keep his promise to the fathers.
De 9:4 Speak not thou in thine heart, after that the LORD thy God hath cast them out from before thee, saying, For my righteousness the LORD hath brought me in to possess this land: but for the wickedness of these nations the LORD doth drive them out from before thee.
De 9:5 Not for thy righteousness, or for the uprightness of thine heart, dost thou go to possess their land: but for the wickedness of these nations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee, and that he may perform the word which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

Understand........It is not by their righteousness in the law of Moses

De 9:6 Understand therefore, that the LORD thy God giveth thee not this good land to possess it for thy righteousness; for thou art a stiffnecked people.

Thank the Lord that the covenant of Mercy promised to Abraham was not abolished at Sinai

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No, you are right. It wasn't because of the rebellious, disobedient, stiff necked Israelite's that God brought them into the Land of Promise.

It was because of the obedience, honor and respect Abraham had for God.

Gen. 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; 5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

It's because of the Faith of Caleb and Joshua, stalks of wheat in a field of tares.

You forget that there is a time prophesied when the Christ shall send forth His Angels to separate the Wheat from the tares.

Matt. 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

So the Caleb's and the Abraham's of the world will be separated from the rebellious, stiff necked men who refuse to Humble themselves to the God of Abraham.

2 Pet. 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

This hasn't happened yet because God is a Merciful God and is giving mankind the time to turn from the religions and religious philosophies of this world, and Turn to Him, and worship HIM in Spirit and Truth. God is seeking men who choose to do this.

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

You are not understanding Paul in Galatians. The issue is "Justification" or atonement of sins, forgiveness. All have sinned, but what is the manner in which these sins are atoned for?

On one hand you had a Temporary LAW, "ADDED" to God's Law, 430 years after Abraham obeyed God's Laws, Statutes, and Commandments.

This Law, called the Levitical Priesthood in Hebrews, dealt with the Atonement of Transgressions of God's Law, AKA sin.

In it, a person who sinned was to take an animal from his own flock, as a "Sin offering", and deliver this offering exclusively to a Levite Priest, who would perform certain sacrificial, Ceremonial "works" for the atonement/forgiveness of sins. This Law was to be in force "Till the Seed should come", at which time HE promised to atone for their sins Himself.

In Galatians, the Jews didn't believe Jesus was this Lamb of God, so they were still requiring these Levitical Priesthood "Works of the Law" for justification.

You are not taking this Temporary Law of atonement into consideration, rather, you are clumping this LAW that was "ADDED", with the LAW it was "ADDED" too. So then when the Christ came, and became our High Priest rendering the Levitical Priesthood, with it's "works of the LAW" for atonement as "obsolete", you are also rendering God's very definitions of SIN as obsolete, which has no scriptural support anywhere in the entire Bible.

Paul never did this.

Studyman said:

No, you are right. It wasn't because of the rebellious, disobedient, stiff necked Israelite's that God brought them into the Land of Promise.

It was because of the obedience, honor and respect Abraham had for God.

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Abraham received the promise, through believing God. It was God's faithfulness to keep the oath of the covenant made in Genesis 17. Which covenant was established in Isaac. The covenant of circumcision.

Studyman said:

You are not understanding Paul in Galatians.

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And you have not addressed my post.
Two covenants are spoken to Abraham. Clearly the covenant Genesis 15 spoke of the seed of the fourth generation. Abraham was told he would die.
The covenant made in Genesis 17 speaks of Abraham and the first generation of his seed, which establishes the covenant.
Take note of what Galatians says about the slave woman and the free.
25 He saith, Yes. And when he was come into the house, Jesus prevented him, saying, What thinkest thou, Simon? of whom do the kings of the earth take custom or tribute? of their own children, or of strangers?
26 Peter saith unto him, Of strangers. Jesus saith unto him, Then are the children free.

Royals are free from bondage of forced labor.

The women are an allegory for the two covenants.

19 And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.
20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.
21 But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year.

How are Sarah's children different? Seed greater than princes....KINGS are the subject here. The kings sons are free .
Ge 17:6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
Ge 17:16 And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her.

More????
This clearly speaks to the covenant made in Genesis 15...
Acts 7:2 And he said, Men, brethren, and fathers, hearken; The God of glory appeared unto our father Abraham, when he was in Mesopotamia, before he dwelt in Charran,
3 And said unto him, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and come into the land which I shall shew thee.
4 Then came he out of the land of the Chaldaeans, and dwelt in Charran: and from thence, when his father was dead, he removed him into this land, wherein ye now dwell.
5 And he gave him none inheritance in it, no, not so much as to set his foot on: yet he promised that he would give it to him for a possession, and to his seed after him, when as yet he had no child.

Clearly this speaks of the covenant made in Genesis 17
8 And he gave him the covenant of circumcision: and so Abraham begat Isaac, and circumcised him the eighth day; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat the twelve patriarchs.

ralliann said:

Abraham did works of faith not Moses law. Moses law was not for another 400 plus years after. James is talking about Abrahams faith being made complete through testing. Moses law does not command the sacrifice of children. God was testing Abrahams Faith.
What law was Abraham keeping?
Ro 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
Gen 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

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Actually the interpretation you have applied to these scriptures sis is not biblical but let me explain why. This is only posted as a help. Look at bit closer at the scriptures your posting...

Genesis 26:5 [5], Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and KEPT MY CHARGE, MY COMMANDMENTS, MY STATUTES AND MY LAWS.

Now look at the Hebrew word used for "LAWS" *H8451 which is תּורה תּרה; tôrâh tôrâ. This is the Hebrew words use for Torah; and means a precept or statute, especially the Decalogue or Pentateuch: - law.

Abraham therefore God says obeyed Torah. That is all the laws for remission of sins (e.g. sin offerings) and God's 10 commandments. This is easy to prove through the scriptures as before the written word of God, the scriptures tell us that God's people had the spoken Word of God. Not meaning to get in the way of your conversation with @HARK! but just wanted to be helpful.

We show our faith in God's Word by doing what God says not be disobeying what God says *John 10:26-27; Matthew 7:21-23 as James says if our faith has no action it is not faith or dead (non existent) *James 2:18-20; 26. Knowing God's Word and not doing what God says would be an example in unbelief which is also sin according to Romans 14:23. Those who practice sin once they are given a knowledge of the truth and reject God's Word in order to continue in sin do not enter God's kingdom according to the scriptures *Hebrews 10:26-31; 2 Thessalonians 1:8-10; Revelation 21:7-8; Revelation 22:14-15

Hope this is helpful.

ralliann said:

Abraham received the promise, through believing God. It was God's faithfulness to keep the oath of the covenant made in Genesis 17.

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LoveGodsWord said:

Genesis 26:5 [5], Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and KEPT MY CHARGE, MY COMMANDMENTS, MY STATUTES AND MY LAWS.

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'

good point.

Heb 11 tells us that Abraham had the promise of heaven and eternal life.

John 8:56 tells us "Abraham saw My day and was glad"

Gal 3:8 tells us that the "one gospel" of Gal 1:6-9 was "preached to Abraham".

In the OT and NT the New Covenant writes God's Law "on the heart and mind"

Rom 3:31 "Do we then nullify the Law through faith? Far from it! On the contrary, we establish the Law."

That Law that includes the TEN where "the first commandment with a promise" is the 5th commandment.

ralliann said:

The new covenant was made with Abraham 400 years before the law.

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True. 400 years before law was written on stone.

Not 400 years before sin existed because even in the NT "sin is transgression of the Law". so... there was law.

The New Covenant - "by definition" writes the Law of God "on heart and mind" Jer 31:31-34. It appears you may be arguing against your own point.

ralliann said:

Abraham received the promise, through believing God. It was God's faithfulness to keep the oath of the covenant made in Genesis 17. Which covenant was established in Isaac. The covenant of circumcision.

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This is what you say. But I just posted what God said. I know you are convinced of things, I'm just saying that it seems prudent that we listen to the God of the Bible and accept HIS Words, even if they do not align with modern religious philosophy men may have been convinced of.

Gen. 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

It was not the Faithfulness of God that the promises were given to Abraham, but the Faithfulness of Abraham. At least according to the Christ of the Bible.

Heb. 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

So simply put, your statement "It was God's faithfulness to keep the oath of the covenant made in Genesis 17" is misleading and incomplete, Because it lacks Scriptural support. God's promise to Abraham was given specifically to Abraham because of the humility and Faithfulness of Abraham, Not the Faithfulness of God which is eternal. I know this because God said so. "Because Abraham obeyed".

Gen. 18:18, Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?

19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.

You may disagree with, or not believe what God has said regarding the reasons for the Promise to Abraham and his Seed. But HIS reason is given.

And you have not addressed my post.
Two covenants are spoken to Abraham. Clearly the covenant Genesis 15 spoke of the seed of the fourth generation. Abraham was told he would die.
The covenant made in Genesis 17 speaks of Abraham and the first generation of his seed, which establishes the covenant.
Take note of what Galatians says about the slave woman and the free.
25 He saith, Yes. And when he was come into the house, Jesus prevented him, saying, What thinkest thou, Simon? of whom do the kings of the earth take custom or tribute? of their own children, or of strangers?
26 Peter saith unto him, Of strangers. Jesus saith unto him, Then are the children free.

Royals are free from bondage of forced labor.

The women are an allegory for the two covenants.

19 And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.
20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.
21 But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year.

How are Sarah's children different? Seed greater than princes....KINGS are the subject here. The kings sons are free .
Ge 17:6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
Ge 17:16 And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her.

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You think this way because you have been convinced of the popular religious philosophy that the God of Abraham saved Abraham's Children from being slaves in Egypt, only to place on their necks laws which, according to your words, brought them into the "Bondage of Forced labor". Implying that God lied to them, basically deceived them into trusting HIM and leaving Egypt with HIM, only to be destroyed in the wilderness because God placed egregious, unjust and uncountable laws on their necks impossible for them to follow, then HE demanded obedience to these impossible laws and slaughtered them by the thousands when they didn't follow them.

That isn't what happened yet it is the foundation of your popular argument here. But I think You are forgetting a key element of Paul's discussion in Galatians.

Paul is speaking to the manner in which the Galatians were justified, forgiven, sins atoned for.

2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

These Galatians were accepted by God, their sins atoned for and God, faithful to His Promise, has shed His Spirit on them.

How did this happen? Were their sins atoned for by following the Levitical Priesthood Sacrificial "Works of the Law" of Atonement? Were they required to bring a sheep, according to atonement laws, exclusively to the Levite Priest before God shared HIS Spirit with them? Atonement Laws that Abraham didn't have as they were not "ADDED" to the Laws, Statutes and Commandments of God Abraham obeyed until 430 years after Abraham? Were they cleansed by the Priesthood "Works of atonement laws" given by Moses "Till the Seed should come"? Or were they justified when they followed the teaching of Paul? A Path Abraham walked.

Acts 26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

The two sons signify the two covenants.

#1. Abraham believed God, shown in his submission to God and obedience to Him. And God shed HIS Spirit on Abraham.

Gen. 12:1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

4 So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him;

This was accounted unto Abraham as righteousness. God forgave Abraham and shed His Spirit on him, just as God forgave the Galatians and shed His Spirit on them for doing the exact same thing, as the Christ asks Everyone who would come unto HIM.

Mark 8:34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, (ALL) Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Same exact instruction this same Christ gave to Abraham.

But in the process of time, Abraham's Children became disobedient, they did not follow in the footsteps of their Father's, Abraham Isaac and Jacob. They created a Golden Calf, they murmured against God. Something Abraham did not do. But God was faithful towards them for the covenant of Abraham's sake, and made a Temporary Covenant with Levi to provide for the atonement of their sins, until the True Lamb of God should come.

#2. Man must take a "sin offering" in the form of a clean animal, specifically to a Levite Priest who would then perform sacrificial "Works" to atone for their sins.

Lev. 4:19 And he shall take all his fat from him, and burn it upon the altar.

20 And he shall do with the bullock as he did with the bullock for a sin offering, so shall he do with this: and the priest shall make an atonement for them, and it shall be forgiven them.

These are the two Covenant Paul is speaking to.

Paul speaks to this Law in Galatians.

19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added (To what I ask) because of transgressions, (Of what I ask) till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

In this Law that was ADDED to the Laws Abraham obeyed, men were bound by "works of the Law" for their atonement. They were required to take of their flock an animal, find an appointed Levite Priest who would then perform Sacrificial "works" of this Law of Atonement Abraham did not have. There was no other way for Justification other than these "works of the Law".

Abraham was justified "Apart" from the Works of the Law.

Given the Jews didn't believe Jesus was the Lamb of God, they were still promoting and requiring the "works of the Law" of the Levitical Priesthood for justification or atonement even though the Lamb of God had already been slain, rendering the Levitical Priesthood, with it's atonement laws, obsolete.

This Prompted Paul to write.

1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

So the two covenants. Justification by Faith/obedience as with Abraham VS Justification by "works of the Levitical Priesthood" from Moses.

Therefore Paul's teaching.

Rom. 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? (Bringing a turtle dove to the Levite Priest?) Nay: but by the law of faith. ("Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.)

28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith (Of Abraham) without the deeds of the law. (of Works for atonement)

Of course this is not taught in the religions of the land, as prophesied. And most can not accept anything other than the doctrines promoted within the countless sects and religious franchises on this planet.

But for the sake of scriptural truth I would ask you one question.

Before the Christ Came, what were the "works of the Law" of Atonement?

Studyman said:

This is what you say. But I just posted what God said.

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So did I. here is a quote from an earlier post

What law was Abraham keeping?
Ro 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
Gen 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Studyman said:

I know you are convinced of things, I'm just saying that it seems prudent that we listen to the God of the Bible and accept HIS Words, even if they do not align with modern religious philosophy men may have been convinced of.

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Yet I quoted scripture as well. Some of the very same you have.
Abraham did not have the law of Moses. Abraham kept law, the law of faith.

Deut 5:2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.
3 The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.

My posts have concerned the distinction between two covenants made with Abraham.

But you have somehow turned this into an accusation that I am promoting "sin is ok".
All whomsoever are in Christ Jesus are a direct result of God's faithfulness to keep the promises God spoke concerning us to Abraham.
Thy seed......
Ro 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Ga 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
Heb 11:18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:

The gospel preached before to Abraham concerning all nations...

Ga 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

ralliann said:

So

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ralliann, weren't you and I having a discussion about Noachide law and Acts 15? I'm not even sure it was on this forum. I can't find that thread anywhere.

Rachel Rachel said:

ralliann, weren't you and I having a discussion about Noachide law and Acts 15? I'm not even sure it was on this forum. I can't find that thread anywhere.

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Yes we were somewhere. I can try to find it cuz i don't remember either.

ralliann said:

So did I. here is a quote from an earlier post

What law was Abraham keeping?
Ro 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
Gen 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

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You are omitting important words from Paul.

28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Abraham obeyed God's Laws, Statutes, and Commandments after God called him to "Deny himself and follow Him", As you posted. But Abraham didn't have the Levitical Priesthood to provide for the forgiveness of his sins. Paul is speaking about "Justification" here. Abraham was an old man when God instructed him to leave his family, religion, lands. Abraham most certainly had sin on him. How was his sin atoned for? Was He required to take a lamb to the Levite Priest who would then perform sacrificial "Works" according to the Levitical Priesthood? Of course not. Levi wasn't even born yet.

No ralliann, This "Law of Works" for atonement was not "ADDED" until 430 years after Abraham, at least according to Paul.

Abraham was "justified" apart from the Laws of Justification ADDED 430 years after Abraham, and were to be in force and effect "Till the Seed should come"".

The Scribes and Pharisees didn't believe Jesus was the Lamb of God who shed HIS Blood once and for all, so they were still requiring these "Law of Works" that Abraham didn't have, for justification.

Please don't just blow this understanding off. If you don't agree, then please provide scriptures which refute this understanding.

Yet I quoted scripture as well. Some of the very same you have.
Abraham did not have the law of Moses. Abraham kept law, the law of faith.

Deut 5:2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.
3 The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.

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Why were they alive "this day". They rebelled against God, they created a Golden calf and worshiped it. They had broken the Covenant God made with their fathers. Please the question of how it was that they were still alive in Duet. 5?

For this to happen, there had to be something "ADDED". In this case, what was ADDED was a Law of Atonement, A Levitical Priesthood to provide for the forgiveness of sins.

Ex. 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

7 And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before their faces all these words which the LORD commanded him.

8 And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.

Here is the Covenant of the Fathers. Which covenant they broke. So God separated Levi, and made a Covenant with him "Till the Seed should come", to provide for the atonement of the sins of those who were still alive in Duet. 5. The Lord didn't make this Covenant with the fathers, but with those who sinned against God after they promised to obey HIM. It's right there in your Bible.

My posts have concerned the distinction between two covenants made with Abraham.

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God didn't make two covenants with Abraham. What are you talking about.

Ex. 2:23 And it came to pass in process of time, that the king of Egypt died: and the children of Israel sighed by reason of the bondage, and they cried, and their cry came up unto God by reason of the bondage.

24 And God heard their groaning, and God remembered his covenant with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob.

25 And God looked upon the children of Israel, and God had respect unto them.

But you have somehow turned this into an accusation that I am promoting "sin is ok".
All whomsoever are in Christ Jesus are a direct result of God's faithfulness to keep the promises God spoke concerning us to Abraham.

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For some reason you are refusing to Acknowledge Abraham's part in this Promise. According to God, "Why did God bless Abraham"? You preach it was because of the Faithfulness of God, as if God can somehow become something other than faithful.

But when I ask God, "why did you bless Abraham"? God Himself tells me. "Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws."

Of course I want to be a "child of Abraham" so I can inherit the promises. In Jesus time there were mainstream preachers who claimed Abraham as their father. But here is what this same Christ told them.

John 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

So Let me ask you a question "between the Pharisees and Zecharias, which one was a Child of Abraham?

Thy seed......
Ro 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Ga 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
Heb 11:18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:

The gospel preached before to Abraham concerning all nations...

Ga 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

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So what is your point? Abraham was Justified apart of the Laws of Atonement "ADDED 430 years after Abraham, and "After those days" the heathen will be justified in the exact same way, that is "apart from" the Levitical Priesthood sacrificial "Works" of atonement Law "ADDED" till the Lamb of God should come.

As Paul says over and over.

"Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Heb. 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats (Deeds of the Law of atonement) should take away sins.

We know what the "works of the law" for justification Paul is speaking to, what are the "works of the Law" for justification are you talking about?

HARK! said:

So Yahshua had it all wrong?

(CLV) Mt 5:20
For I am saying to you that, if ever your righteousness should not be superabounding more than that of the scribes and Pharisees, by no means may you be entering into the kingdom of the heavens.

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I have no clue where you all are taking my comments. you absolutely are making no sense to me. No, Jesus didn't have it all wrong. There is nothing I have said that you should assume I think that. But I will no longer respond to more of the same, this just is not beneficial to do so.

Dkh587 said:

**Disclaimer: Gentiles who believe on the Messiah are grafted into the olive tree, which is Israel - Romans 11. Also, Gentiles who believe on the Messiah are now fellow citizens with God’s people, Israel - Ephesians 2:19. Gentiles who believe in the Messiah are now Israel, and are partakers of the covenant given only to Israel**​

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According to the prophet Jeremiah, the new covenant is only with Israel

Jeremiah 31:31-33


The original covenant was also only made with Israel, according to Jeremiah.

Notice that he did not mention any other nation - he only mentioned Israel(and Judah). He did not say “the house of America”, “the house of Rome”, “the house of Greece” etc

People on here (and in real life) love to say “the old covenant was given only to Israel”, as if the new covenant was not given only to Israel, too.

By their logic, they exclude themselves from the new covenant by default, as the new covenant is only with Israel.

My question is: what covenant are these Gentiles that exclude themselves from Israel and her covenants a part of ?

Did any of the other prophets foretell of another covenant aside from the new covenant that’s only with Israel? If so, what is the covenant, and where is it in the Scriptures?

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Like someone else said, this will be a touchy thread-topic. Is what we call the new covenant fiction?

The New Jerusalem has 12 gates only, one for each tribe including Judah, gentiles would have to enter through one of these gates; at least twice in the OT it is said that the Law (covenant) will go to the gentiles.

The new covenant was made with the lost sheep of Israel, which should include the lost Jews, and later extended to gentiles; but what is a Jew; different Jews define Jew differently, by some to be a Jew ones mother has to be a Jew and married, other Jews say a Jew is a descendant of Abraham (I am sure this would require further qualification).

This YouTube does not answer the question but further defines the question. I give the Rabbi 5 out of ten not because he is wrong but he only has half the story.


DID PAUL INVENT CHRISTIANITY? – Rabbi Michael Skobac – Jews for Judaism - YouTube

HARK! said:

So Yahshua had it all wrong?

(CLV) Mt 5:20
For I am saying to you that, if ever your righteousness should not be superabounding more than that of the scribes and Pharisees, by no means may you be entering into the kingdom of the heavens.

I'll just take his word for it.

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My OPINION is you are both wrong and that their were some righteous or else Jesus had no reason to say, "I did not come to the righteous but only to the lost sheep of Israel." The Pharisees were wrong for several reasons; they did not keep the Law them selves while making the law a heavy burden for others and were called hypocrites; had they kept the Law they would still be required to enter into the covenant; they were accused of not entering in themselves and not allowing anyone else to enter in either; they did not have an arrangement with God.