Where do You Draw the Line?

Continuing on a little more Carl from the last post on the previous page..

Depends what sabbath{s} you are talking about. If you are talking about the SHADOW sabbath{s} and ORDINANCES from the annual festivals from the MOSAIC BOOK of the COVENANANT as referred to in Colossians 2:14-17 then yes these are all SHADOWS.

This is not talking about God's 4th Commandment, but laws in ORDINANCES from the BOOK of the COVENANT, not God's commandments written by God on tables of stone.

The SHADOW sabbath{s} and ORDINANCES are not God's SEVENTH DAY weekly Sabbath from God's 4th Commandment which is one of the 10 Commandments from God's ETERNAL LAW.

The SHADOW sabbath{s} were connected to specific festivals of the old COVENANT and had a different purpose to God's 4th Commandment.

The Shadow sabbath{s} could also fall on ANY DAY of the week. These point to Jesus and God's plan of salvation.

DETAILED SCRIPTURE SUPPORT PROVIDED HERE linked CLICK ME.

God's eternal law (10 commandments) from the old testament is the same law repeated in the new covenant. God's law (10 commandments) give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken as shown in Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4. Shows us how love is expressed in Matthew 5:17-20; 1 John 3:4-9; Matthew 22:36-40; is a part of God's new covenant promise to be written on the heart by faith that works by love in Hebrews 8:10-12; Romans 13:8-10; James 2:10-11; Romans 3:31; Romans 8:1-4; 1 John 2:3-4; is demonstrated in the lives of those who have been born again in the Spirit to love and follow JESUS in *John 14:15; John 15:10; 1 John 3:4-9; Revelation 12:17; Revelation 14:12; Revelation 22:14 Galatians 5:16; Romans 8:1-4 etc, etc...

Need more new testament scriptures showing that Jesus and the Apostles taught God's law (10 commandments)? Here you go (linked). Do you need more new testament scriptures showing everyone of God's 10 commandments are repeated in the new testament? Here you are (linked). Perhaps you are mixed up with the Mosaic "shadow laws" in the book of the old covenant (Exodus 24:7) of the laws for remission of sins that have been fulfilled in Jesus and point to God's plan of salvation for all mankind in the new covenant? See Hebrews 7; Hebrews 8; Hebrews 9 and Hebrews 10 (no more animal sacrifices).

God's 4th commandment dear friend cannot be a "shadow law" as it is a "memorial" - Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy *Exodus 20:8 pointing backwards not forwards to things to come and is a memorial of creation and a celebration of God as the creator of heaven and earth.

Hope this helps.

I will leave it to others better equipped than I am to sort through the copious references you bring into the argument.

It is a matter of confidence in His Love that leads me to believe that if Saturday worship was a matter of life and death He would have left no doubt to the least intelligent among us that this was a clincher.

This is clearly not the case.

I cant imagine a Loving Father hiding such a critical truth from all but an intellectual few in a minor sect.

Further I hear Him so clearly on a variety of matters but I have no leading to worship on Saturday in this season of my calling.

Have a great day.

Carl Emerson said:

I will leave it to others better equipped than I am to sort through the copious references you bring into the argument.

It is a matter of confidence in His Love that leads me to believe that if Saturday worship was a matter of life and death He would have left no doubt to the least intelligent among us that this was a clincher.

This is clearly not the case.

I cant imagine a Loving Father hiding such a critical truth from all but an intellectual few in a minor sect.

Further I hear Him so clearly on a variety of matters but I have no leading to worship on Saturday in this season of my calling.

Have a great day.

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You do know Carl that God's people have always kept God's 4th commandment Sabbath unbroken all through time to JESUS to the Apostles even after the death of JESUS, to this very present day unbroken right? Sunday worship is one of those man-made teaching and traditions that JESUS warns us about in Matthew 15:3-9. Does this not worry you? It should. Gods' 10 commandments give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7 and if we knowingly break and one of them we stand guilty before God of sin *James 2:10-11. Sin *1 John 3:4 will keep all those who knowingly practice it our of God's kingdom 1 because all those who knowingly do so reject the gift of Gods dear son and count the blood of the covenant an unholy thing doing despite to the Spirit of God's grace.*Hebrews 10:26-31; Romans 6:23; 1 John 3:6-9; Revelation 14:12; Revelation 22:14; 1 John 2:3-4. God our loving father has not hidden anything. Everything has been revealed in His Word, though some close their eyes and ears from hearing and seeing it.

Something to pray about.

Bob S said:

Studyman, you make a compelling reason for the ten commandments writing that they came from the hand of God. Is what was coming forth from His hand anymore sacred that what came out of His mouth? If we are to believe the ten are binding today how could be possibly cull the remainder of His commands or even pick some of them and cull the remainder?

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I appreciate the reply, but you are avoiding the entire premise of my inquiry.

I think you should read it again with an open mind.

The question is simple really. According to Col. 2 and Eph. 2, there were "Commandments contained in ordinances" and "Handwriting of ordinances" which ruled that time, that were against Paul, Jews, and Gentiles. These "ordinances" caused a partition to exist between peoples of the land. These "ordinances" relegated strangers/Gentiles as "without God and Without Hope in this world". They were "contrary" to Paul, Jews and Gentiles, these ordinances were actually their enemy according to Scriptures.

I know the prevailing religious philosophy of the religions of the land I was born into, preaches that these "commandments contained in ordinances" that caused so many problems for the peoples of the world, were GOD's Commandments, written by HIS Hand, and delivered to us through the Law and Prophets.

But when I follow the instructions of Paul and study the Holy Scriptures, I can find absolutely ZERO Scriptural evidence that this religious philosophy is true.

Since I am just a no-body, an insignificant speck here today, gone tomorrow, I thought it might be prudent to ask for some Scriptural Evidence to support the popular religious philosophy, that the ordinances referred to, which were the enemy of Paul, Jews and Gentiles, that Jesus exposed and took out of the way, were the Commandments written by the hand of God, and not the Commandments of Men that Jesus Himself said the Shepherds were teaching for doctrines.

It is a perfectly appropriate question, and prudent to ask. But for some reason many religious men on this forum are avoiding even having a discussion, and are deflecting from the very topic as if it were some kind of plague.

There certainly is a Scriptural True answer to the question. I am not trying to promote an answer, but to allow God's Word to reveal the answer.

In Matt. 15, after Jesus exposes whose Commandments the Pharisees were teaching for doctrines, He made this statement.

Matt. 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

For me this begged the question, "Why were they lost"? In search of the answer I found these Word's from the Holy Scriptures.

Jer. 50:6 My people hath been lost sheep: their shepherds have caused them to go astray, they have turned them away on the mountains: they have gone from mountain to hill, they have forgotten their restingplace.

And again;

Jer. 23:16 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the LORD.

17 They say still unto them that despise me, The LORD hath said, Ye shall have peace; and they say unto every one that walketh after the imagination of his own heart, No evil shall come upon you.

So wouldn't it be accurate, according the the Holy Scriptures, to say That Jesus came to save Paul, Jews and Gentiles from the "commandments of men" that made them vain, and caused them to go astray and be lost?

That is why I asked Carl to provide even one bit of evidence that supports his religious philosophy that it was God's Commands, written by HIS Hand, that Jesus came to save men from. But Carl refuses to engage.

So to clarify, I am not trying to distinguish between written Laws of God and Oral Laws of God. I am asking for your Scriptural support for the popular religious philosophy that the "ordinances" that were the enemy of Paul, Jews and Gentiles referenced in Eph. and Col., were from God and not the Shepherds which caused His people to go astray.

Studyman said:

Studyman, you make a compelling reason for the ten commandments writing that they came from the hand of God. Is what was coming forth from His hand anymore sacred that what came out of His mouth? If we are to believe the ten are binding today how could be possibly cull the remainder of His commands or even pick some of them and cull the remainder?

Click to expand...

I appreciate the reply, but you are avoiding the entire premise of my inquiry.

I think you should read it again with an open mind.

The question is simple really. According to Col. 2 and Eph. 2, there were "Commandments contained in ordinances" and "Handwriting of ordinances" which ruled that time, that were against Paul, Jews, and Gentiles. These "ordinances" caused a partition to exist between peoples of the land. These "ordinances" relegated strangers/Gentiles as "without God and Without Hope in this world". They were "contrary" to Paul, Jews and Gentiles, these ordinances were actually their enemy according to Scriptures.

I know the prevailing religious philosophy of the religions of the land I was born into, preaches that these "commandments contained in ordinances" that caused so many problems for the peoples of the world, were GOD's Commandments, written by HIS Hand, and delivered to us through the Law and Prophets.

But when I follow the instructions of Paul and study the Holy Scriptures, I can find absolutely ZERO Scriptural evidence that this religious philosophy is true.

Since I am just a no-body, an insignificant speck here today, gone tomorrow, I thought it might be prudent to ask for some Scriptural Evidence to support the popular religious philosophy, that the ordinances referred to, which were the enemy of Paul, Jews and Gentiles, that Jesus exposed and took out of the way, were the Commandments written by the hand of God, and not the Commandments of Men that Jesus Himself said the Shepherds were teaching for doctrines.

It is a perfectly appropriate question, and prudent to ask. But for some reason many religious men on this forum are avoiding even having a discussion, and are deflecting from the very topic as if it were some kind of plague.

There certainly is a Scriptural True answer to the question. I am not trying to promote an answer, but to allow God's Word to reveal the answer.

In Matt. 15, after Jesus exposes whose Commandments the Pharisees were teaching for doctrines, He made this statement.

Matt. 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

For me this begged the question, "Why were they lost"? In search of the answer I found these Word's from the Holy Scriptures.

Jer. 50:6 My people hath been lost sheep: their shepherds have caused them to go astray, they have turned them away on the mountains: they have gone from mountain to hill, they have forgotten their restingplace.

And again;

Jer. 23:16 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the LORD.

17 They say still unto them that despise me, The LORD hath said, Ye shall have peace; and they say unto every one that walketh after the imagination of his own heart, No evil shall come upon you.

So wouldn't it be accurate, according the the Holy Scriptures, to say That Jesus came to save Paul, Jews and Gentiles from the "commandments of men" that made them vain, and caused them to go astray and be lost?

That is why I asked Carl to provide even one bit of evidence that supports his religious philosophy that it was God's Commands, written by HIS Hand, that Jesus came to save men from. But Carl refuses to engage.

So to clarify, I am not trying to distinguish between written Laws of God and Oral Laws of God. I am asking for your Scriptural support for the popular religious philosophy that the "ordinances" that were the enemy of Paul, Jews and Gentiles referenced in Eph. and Col., were from God and not the Shepherds which caused His people to go astray.

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It's been 5 days since you asked me a question, and I showed you the basic common courtesy and kindness of answering you in great detail. I also continued the question posed in the post you replied to, and asked it of you.

If you don't intend to have an intellectually honest discussion or exchange, then why do you ask the question in the first place?

Studyman said:

That is why I asked Carl to provide even one bit of evidence that supports his religious philosophy that it was God's Commands, written by HIS Hand, that Jesus came to save men from. But Carl refuses to engage.

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That is partly because I don't respond to false claims.

Carl Emerson said:

That is partly because I don't respond to false claims.

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"Deut 28 - The Law with the blessings and the curses which Jesus abolished on the Cross."

I should have chosen my words more carefully sorry...

The Blessings were superseded by the better promises spoken of in Heb 8:6.

The Curses were taken by Him on the cross. Gal 3:13.

So the Law was stripped of it's consequences on the Cross.

Carl Emerson said:

I should have chosen my words more carefully sorry...

The Blessings were superseded by the better promises spoken of in Heb 8:6.

The Curses were taken by Him on the cross. Gal 3:13.

So the Law was stripped of it's consequences on the Cross.

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You believe this doctrine because you have been convinced, it seems, that the Laws of God are the enemy of man, therefore they are the curse and must be "stripped of their consequences". You say you don't, but your posts implies otherwise.

Hebrews 7-10 is speaking exclusively about the Temporary Covenant God made with Levi "Til the Seed should come". That is "Atonement" by sacrificial "works". When the Christ came and shed His Blood once and for all, HE ushered in a covenant of atonement based on better promises, one of which is a High Priest who never dies, making the Levitical Priesthood with it's sacrificial "works" of the Levitical Priesthood for atonement, obsolete as it was a Temporary Covenant to begin with.

I was speaking to Col. and Eph., which are unrelated to the teaching of the Hebrews Author regarding the Levitical Priesthood.

14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

To believe your religious philosophy regarding this verse, I must believe it was God that Jesus spoiled, that it was God which was the principality and power that created Laws which were against the men of the world. That Jesus made a show of God openly, exposing HIM as the creator of commandments contained in ordinances that were against mankind. That Jesus Triumphed over God by exposing, and then destroying HIS Law which you imply was the enemy of all mankind.

I can not find any scriptures which support your implication in this matter.

This is why I asked you for something, anything from the mouth of God, to support your religious philosophy that the "commandments contained in ordinances" mentioned in Col. and Eph. that were the enemy of Paul, Jews and Gentiles, were from the hand of God and not the commandments of men which condemned Jesus to death in the first place.

"We have a law, and by our law He must die".

Where in the entire Bible did GOD'S Law condemn Jesus to death? Are you preaching that Jesus sinned against God? Of course not. Yet the Commandments contained in ordinances that ruled the day, most certainly condemned Jesus to death. You are preaching that the Commandments contained in ordinances that were against Jesus, against Paul, against both Jews and Gentiles, were from the hand of God. I am asked why, where is your evidence of this?

What I have asked is not that you accept my understanding, but that you show me in Scriptures where the "Commandments Contained in ordinances" that were the enemy of the people of the world, that condemned Jesus to death, and relegated Gentiles as without God and without Hope in the world, were commandments of God, and not commandments of men Jesus said the religious leaders of that time were teaching for doctrines.

Where is your Biblical support for your religious philosophy that the Commandments contained in ordinances, that Jesus Stripped of their consequences, were from God?

It is a perfectly appropriate question and important to get right.

I hope you might engage and show me, and if you can't find any Scriptural support, then you might consider and ask yourself where this doctrine actually comes from then..

Studyman said:

You believe this doctrine because you have been convinced, it seems, that the Laws of God are the enemy of man

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Not correct.

HARK! said:

Exodus 31:14

Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

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Hark, do you believe the Old Covenant is still in force?

HARK! said:

I believe that the word of YHWH is still in force. Do you not?

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That does not answer my question.

Is the Old Covenant still in force or not?