Do you believe in the “caught up together” event in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17?

Douggg

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I don't need to present a chart and I've already told you I will never do so. I've already explained to you what I believe will happen when. I'm sorry that you are unable to communicate with words and can only communicate with charts. That's not my problem.
Since you have such a simplistic view of only two events, which both of them you place at the time of Jesus's death and resurrection, then it is easy for you to put your view into words, because Amil is based on denial principles of the end times events.

When the great number of the events of the end times are taken with respect for what God has said, a timeline chart is necessary to organize the events in the right order and from analyzing why. It is too complex for words alone to communicate back and forth in discussions with others.

Even then, you cannot acknowledge the simple Ezekiel 39 infallible timeline framework for the end times, as simple as it is, because it exposes Amil for what it is - an idealistic method of how to interpret the bible.

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Spiritual Jew

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Since you have such a simplistic view of only two events, which both of them you place at the time of Jesus's death and resurrection, then it is easy for you to put your view into words, because Amil is based on denial principles of the end times events.
We deny your ridiculous principles of the end times events which denies the confirming of the new covenant established by the blood of Christ long ago. Take away your false interpretation of Daniel 9:27 and your timeline would suddenly get much less convoluted.

Also, Amil does not deny end time events. You are a liar.

You know we believe that Jesus is returning in the future and that we believe all the dead in Christ will be raised on that day and all believers will be gathered and caught up to Him. You know that we believe He will take vengeance on all living unbelievers on that future day (2 Thess 1:7-10). You know that we believe that the judgment will take place on that day as well (2 Tim 4:1, Matt 25:31-46). And that the new heavens and new earth will be ushered in on that day (2 Peter 3:10-13).

So, don't lie and act like Amil is equivalent to full preterism because that is not the case and you know that.

When the great number of the events of the end times are taken with respect for what God has said, a timeline chart is necessary to organize the events in the right order and from analyzing why.
If that was true then the Bible would have included charts, but it doesn't. How many times do you need to be told this?

It is too complex for words alone to communicate back and forth in discussions with others.
That illustrates the flaw in your doctrine. That should not be the case that it's so complex that you need charts to explain it. That is utterly ridiculous. You are making it out as if God was mistaken by neglecting to have the authors of His word create charts for us to be included in His word so that we could understand it.

Even then, you cannot acknowledge the simple Ezekiel 39 infallible timeline framework for the end times, as simple as it is, because it exposes Amil for what it is - an idealistic method of how to interpret the bible
I don't believe in your fallible timeline which is entirely dependent on the false interpretation that the 70th week of Daniel 9:24-27 remains unfulfilled. That you think the entire 70th week is yet unfulfilled is particularly offensive. It clearly indicates that the Messiah would be cut off AFTER the first 69 weeks and yet you don't even have His death included in the 70th week at all. That is shameful and a complete disregard for what the text clearly says.
 
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Douggg

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I don't believe in your fallible timeline which is entirely dependent on the false interpretation that the 70th week of Daniel 9:24-27 remains unfulfilled. That you think the entire 70th week is yet unfulfilled is particularly offensive. It clearly indicates that the Messiah would be cut off AFTER the first 69 weeks and yet you don't even have His death included in the 70th week at all. That is shameful and a complete disregard for what the text clearly says.
Amil denial principle that the 7year 70th week is left. Amil denial principle that stoppage of the daily sacrifice and transgression of desolation by the little horn person in Daniel 8 is an end times event.

Daniel 9:23 At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I [Gabriel] am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision [that Daniel had of the little horn person, and described by Gabriel previously].
 
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robycop3

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Amils never ignore Rev 20. It supports the doctrine. It relates to the here-and-now. Jesus and the saints have been reigning since the first resurrection.
No, they haven't. Jesus is still in heaven & the souls of the dead saints are still in paradise.
 
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robycop3

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I'm not going to waste any more time arguing with you about the timing of it. The fact that Jesus was specifically addressing the 1st century church in Philadelphia there is undeniable. But, even if what He said was still to occur in the future, it would have nothing to do with anyone being taken off of the earth. If that's what Jesus wanted for His followers at any time in history then He would not have prayed this:

John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil...20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

Well, that's very selective of you to think that is the only verse where He was speaking to those in the church at Philadelphia. Let's see if that can hold up to scrutiny.

Revelation 3:7 “To the angel of the church in Philadelphia write: These are the words of him who is holy and true, who holds the key of David. What he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open. 8 I know your deeds. See, I have placed before you an open door that no one can shut. I know that you have little strength, yet you have kept my word and have not denied my name. 9 I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews though they are not, but are liars—I will make them come and fall down at your feet and acknowledge that I have loved you. 10 Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth.

Nope, your claim that He was only talking to them in verse 8 fails to hold up to scrutiny. Every occurrence of the words "your" and "you" are referring to the same people in these verses. To say otherwise is to defy all logic and all sense of proper grammar.

Whose feet did Jesus say that He would make "those who are of the synagogue of Satan" fall down before? Those in the church of Philadelphia at that time. Who kept His "command to endure patiently"? Those in the church in Philadelphia. Therefore, the ones who He said He would keep "from the hour of trial" are those who were in the church in Philadelphia. Poster sovereigngrace has already described to you what the hour of trial was that they had to endure, but you stubbornly refuse to accept that which causes you to deny the obvious, which is that Jesus was specifically addressing that 1st century church in Philadelphia in verses 7-10.

Jesus said, "When YOU see the abomination of desolation..." & clearly it hasn't yet occurred, so His "yous" sometimes include future people.

And once again to both of you mistaken eisegetes, the hour of trial hasn't yet come upon THE WHOLE WORLD, as Jesus said. No getting by that FACT.
 
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sovereigngrace

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No, they haven't. Jesus is still in heaven & the souls of the dead saints are still in paradise.

I already rebutted this and you already carefully ducked around the evidence, as is your pattern. I will repost:

Paradise

If we go right back to the beginning of time, we see that earthly paradise (in the Garden of Eden) was a beautiful reflection of heavenly paradise. It was basically heaven on earth. Man had perfect and unhindered fellowship with God. He was fulfilling the plan and purpose of God flawlessly. God and creation were at one. God testified repeatedly in Genesis 1 that everything He created “God saw that it was good.” This was a wonderful environment.

Man, himself, was created with the ability to live forever. But, unfortunately, sin changed all that. As a result of that, we learn in Genesis 3:23-24: “Therefore the LORD God sent him (Adam) forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.”

When Adam partook of the forbidden fruit he was immediately separated from God and disqualified from living in paradise. It was Paradise lost!! In his sinful state, man was no longer welcome in the presence of God. He could no longer enjoy intimate unbroken fellowship with the Almighty. He lost his privileged position and He gave the devil rights over him which he never before possessed.

Interestingly, the Greek Septuagint uses the Greek word paradeisos here to describe the Garden of Eden. It is from this word that we get our word “paradise” in the New Testament. The same word is used in Ezekiel 28:13 in the Old Testament to describe the Garden of Eden.

The angelic “flaming sword” was placed at the border of the Garden of Eden to prevent man from returning to paradise. Man was not qualified or worthy to return there.

As a result of the fall, man was separated from God physically and spiritually. He was forced out of the Garden of Eden and left carrying his own guilt, shame and condemnation. Romans 5:18 states, “as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation.” Outside of salvation, this is man’s legal standing before the bar of God – guilty and condemned.

Throughout the whole of the old covenant, God’s people dead or alive had no automatic access to heaven because of sin. When believers died they went straight to Abraham’s bosom in Hades. This was a waiting place for believers anticipating being rescued by the Messiah.

Even with salvation in the Old Testament, it never secured man’s entry upon death into the heavenly presence of God. Man would rather go in spirit immediately into a waiting place in the center of the earth until the penalty for sin had been paid, the grave defeated, Satan spiritual bound from deceiving the nations and Hades decimated.

The Old Testament hope of the saints of God is seen in David’s words in Psalm 16:10-11: “For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.”

Jesus said in John 3:13: no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.”

Peter confirms this in his great sermon at Pentecost. Acts 2:34 records: “For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand.”

Satan had access to heaven

A consequence of man’s fall was that it gave Satan rights and an open door to access heaven and God to accuse the people of God.

Job 1:6-11: Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it … Satan … said, Doth Job fear God for nought? Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land. But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.”

Satan held the power of accusation against the elect from the Garden of Eden right up until the cross. Satan knew the demands of God’s law, and he also knew the weakness of man and his inability to keep the law. The law was perfect and it demanded perfect obedience. Because it had not been perfectly adhered to by any man during the old covenant period the elect stood condemned before God. The devil accordingly used this as a stick to constantly bring charges against the elect before the throne of God. The enemy could bring bona-fide legal accusations against the saints on the grounds of them breaking God’s holy and eternal law.

Christ described Hades in Luke 16:19-23: “There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.”

In verse 24 “he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.”

He continues in verse 27-28, “Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: For I have five brothers; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

Lazarus abode in Abraham's bosom after death. This was the lower earth and is known by theologians as a divided Hades. Believers remained here until after the cross. The reason being: sin had not been paid for, death had not been defeated, Satan had not been conquered, and Hades had not been overcome. These are all interlinked in Scripture. The first Adam had handed over dominion to Satan on this front. The Old Testament blood sacrifices could not remove sin, only temporarily cover it. Satan still held the power of death until sin was finally paid for at the cross. He also held a legitimate seat of accusation before the life, death and resurrection of Christ.

Heaven finally opened up to the redeemed

Paradise was lost right up until the cross. It only became accessible through Christ’s death on the cross. We see the great historic change in Christ’s promise to the dying penitent thief on the cross in Luke 23:43, “Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise [paradeisos]”

Here Jesus was anticipating His atoning death and His conquering of the grave. His Spirit would not be detained in Hades, but rather conquer Hades, releasing the spirits of the redeemed from their detainment in Abraham’s bosom and ascent into the presence of God.

How could Jesus promise this thief Paradise when every other believer since the fall went direct to Abraham’s bosom upon death?

He was about to secure the necessary victory that would open up the gates of heaven to the redeemed Old Testament saints to enter direct into Paradise. He was announcing a massive change in the location believers went to upon death since the beginning of time. He was revealing something absolutely new. Through the work of Christ, God’s people at death would now be taken into the holy presence of God. It took the transaction of the new covenant to realize that.

As soon as Christ died there was a mass evacuation from Hades.

Matt 27:45-53: “Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour (this is from midday till 3pm). And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? Some of them that stood there, when they heard that, said, This man calleth for Elias. And straightway one of them ran, and took a spunge, and filled it with vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink. The rest said, Let be, let us see whether Elias will come to save him. Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.”

There is a lot happening here!

· Jesus acquaints Himself with our sin.
· He is enveloped by darkness.
· He is separated from His Father.
· He promised Paradise to a repentant sinner that actual day.

· He dies!
· The veil is rent in 2.
· The presence of God is released to the nations.
· The saints are released from Abraham’s bosom.

The renting of the veil immediately after Christ gave up the ghost spelt the end of the old covenant and the introduction of the new covenant. Right there, God stepped out from behind that curtain and embraced all nations. God required no more animal sacrifices as the temple’s purpose had been completed. The temple was rendered redundant.

Repeated Scripture portrays a victorious Christ since His all-conquering resurrection.

Jesus said Revelation 3:21: “I … overcame.”

Revelation 5:5 tells us: “behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed.”

Christ announced to His disciples in Matthew 28:18, “All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.”

Our Lord's earthly assignment involved defeating every enemy of righteousness. It was a full package. But it all culminated in Christ defeating sin, death, Satan and Hades through His resurrection. But His sinless life, His atoning death and glorious resurrection cannot be divorced from each other, as you seem to be trying to do.

When Christ came, justice demanded:

· Christ had to defeat sin – the source of man’s enslavement.
· He had to defeat Satan the instrument used to tempt man to sin.
· He had to defeat death (or the grave) the penalty of sin.
· He had to defeat Hades (or Abraham’s bosom) the prison of the righteous dead.
· He had to defeat eternal punishment – the just reward for unrepentant sinners.

Paradise = the third heaven = the New Jerusalem

In the New Testament, Paradise becomes synonymous with heaven and the New Jerusalem. It was this same place that Paul the Apostle testified, in 2 Corinthians 12:4. After the cross, after the emptying of Abraham bosom, Paul testified in 2 Corinthians 12:2-4: “I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth) such an one caught up to the third heaven. And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth) How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.”

Paradise = the third heaven.

If we compare the location of “the tree of life” in Revelation 2:7 (paradise) and Revelation 22:2, 14 (New Jerusalem), we see that paradise is clearly the New Jerusalem. Revelation 2:7 says, “He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; to him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.” Clearly “the tree of life” in Revelation 2:7 resides within Paradise.

In Revelation 21:2 “John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.”

In Revelation 22:2, 14 he further describes, In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.”

We can safely deduce that the word Paradise is used as another name for the heavenly abode, and particularly the New Jerusalem. No one would surely doubt the location of “the tree of life” here in Revelation 22:2, 14. It is located in the New Jerusalem.

Paradise = the third heaven = the New Jerusalem.
 
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sovereigngrace

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No, they haven't. Jesus is still in heaven & the souls of the dead saints are still in paradise.

Satan cast down

In John 12:31-33 Christ predicted, shortly before He defeated the power of Satan at the cross, “now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. This he said, signifying what death he should die (John 12:31-33).

Here was the time of his casting down - after the cross. Here was the time of the unblinding of the nations (the Gentiles). Here Christ gloriously dethroned Satan from his previous, largely unchallenged, global earthly rule and his place of accusation in heaven. Satan’s movement, liberties and sway on earth and in heaven received a severe blow.

Revelation 12 places the defeat of Satan at the resurrection/ascension: "And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death."

Previous to Satan's eviction, God was Israel's God, not the Gentiles God. Satan ruled the nations. But through this casting out of Satan, after man's penalty had been paid in full, he no longer had anything to accuse the elect over. It was indeed finished! The powerful spread of the Gospel to the Gentiles lifting the deception that kept them bound. Satan was now bound. The boot was on the other foot. With the global expanse of the great commission the Gentiles now are without excuse. The ignorance is gone. The veil is lifted. The means by which God lifts deception is the preaching of the Word of God. This has now been successfully ongoing throughout the nations for 2000 years.

Satan's defeat came through His sinless life, His atoning death and His glorious resurrection. Here is when He got His eviction notice, and here is "when" salvation came to the "whole world" - not just one nation Israel. The deception enveloping the Gentiles was lifted - praise God. They are now without excuse, just like those in the OT that rejected salvation. Salvation has now come to the nations. But Satan had to first be cast down. He had to be defeated. Christ’s life, death and resurrection safely secured that. As a result the Church becomes a militant overcoming organism.

He is talking about sin being judged on the cross, and the immediate result it had upon Satan - he was evicted from heaven. He lost all grounds to condemn the elect anymore. Sin had been paid for in full, and hell had been defeated for all who would take a hold of the cross-work. The accuser has nothing to accuse the elect for as sin - past, present and future - has been fully penalized. Another result was Hades (Abraham's bosom) being emptied of the elect. That happened for the same reason. Hell (and the second death) had been defeated for God's people.

One of the main effects of Satan being evicted from heaven and being spiritual bound was that the nations would be enlightened. But another immediate effect was that dead believers were released from the captivity of Abraham’s bosom and ushered into the heavenly abode.

As He rose they rose. After all, He was defeating the grave on their behalf.

Ephesians 4:8 says, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive.

Hades had no more hold upon the Old Testament redeemed because the penalty had been paid for sin, and therefore death, Hades and Satan were stripped of their ugly power over them.

David Wilkerson said: “Jesus plundered the devil at Calvary, stripping him of all power and authority. When Christ rose victorious from the grave, he led an innumerable host of redeemed captives out of Satan's grasp. And that blood-bought procession is still marching on.”

You need to first grasp the New Testament truth, that since the cross, Christians never die. You do not seem to grasp that. Read the following Scriptures with an open mind and you will see that death has been defeated. It has no hold over the believer. Jesus has defeated it. You need to see that death is defeated. That is why the redeemed (dead or alive) rule and reign and function as priests and kings.

Death defeated

2 Timothy 1:9-10 says, “Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.”

Here you have it! Jesus has abolished death on our behalf. He do not need to fear it any more. Our Lord confronted that dark enemy and overcome it, opening up heaven to the dead in Christ through His eternal victory.

Death has lost its sting. Hades has been emptied of the redeemed. Christ’s appeared unto John on the Isle of Patmos years after the cross, in Revelation 1:18, and testified: “I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell (or Hades) and of death.”

Death and Hades are now defeated. The grave has been conquered. God's people who die go now to be with Jesus. Hades was emptied after the first resurrection. Jesus defeated sin, death, Hades and Satan through his first Advent. The dead in Christ now reign in heaven with Christ.

Hebrews 2:14-18 explains: “through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.”

Christ currently holds the keys of Hades and of death, and Satan cannot snatch them out of His hand. He holds the keys because they belong to Him. He possesses all authority in heaven and on earth. That includes power over life and death.

Praise the Lord, the grave has been defeated.

1 John 3:18 states “The Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the Devil.”

Satan had exercised that Adamic authority since the fall. Now it was time for the last Adam to grasp it back. As man’s representative, Christ had to take upon Himself human flesh to meet the devil on his own playing field. He had to take back all that was lost in the Garden. In this, Christ lived the life that Adam couldn’t live. Christ came to live the life man couldn’t live and pay the debt that man could never pay. By Christ’s sinless life, His atoning death and glorious resurrected He defeated the authority of Satan and took back all that belonged to Adam. Satan has been stripped of his legal authority to control the nations.

Colossians 1:13 tells us that God has “delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son.”

Man today need not superstitiously dread a devil that once possessed the dark “power of death” and who used that weapon to devastatingly terrorize and ensnare the heathen nations. They need no longer walk in awful bondage and fear. They must simply turn to the Cross of Jesus where their freedom was bought. From the First Advent, Satan and his minions have been placed in an invisible spiritual prison [the abyss] and are hampered by powerful invisible spiritual chains of restraint which curtails their movement throughout the globe and limits their influence over the nations.

Christ broke Satan’s claim over the Gentiles, and opened up a way of salvation for the heathen. The devil’s ability to deceive the nations has been damaged with the widespread evangelization of the Gentiles. No longer do they sit in complete darkness as before. Death has lost its sting. Revelation 1:18 records Christ’s well-known encounter with John on the Isle of Patmos, after the cross, where He significantly appears with the symbolic keys or authority of hell and of death.

Many today are worried about dying. But Jesus has conquered death so that when we die we are absent from the body, but present with the Lord. There is no separation between the redeemed (dead or alive) and their Lord.

Paul testified in Romans 8:38-39: For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

It is not just that we have access to paradise upon death, we have access from when we get born again. Listen to what the writer to the Hebrew says in Hebrews 10:19:

Hebrews 10:19-23: "Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; And having an high priest over the house of God; Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised."

Heaven is where Jesus is. Jesus is where heaven is. If you have Jesus, then heaven is open to you today spiritually, and open to you actually and spatially upon death. The gates of Hades are closed forever to the redeemed, and the gates of heaven are open forever to the redeemed; and all because of Jesus.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Amil denial principle that the 7year 70th week is left. Amil denial principle that stoppage of the daily sacrifice and transgression of desolation by the little horn person in Daniel 8 is an end times event.

Daniel 9:23 At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I [Gabriel] am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision [that Daniel had of the little horn person, and described by Gabriel previously].
That's right. I deny that your understanding of Daniel 9:27 is correct. I think I've made that pretty clear. It has to do with the Messiah, the Prince, Jesus Christ, making an end of the need for animal sacrifices and sin offerings by His once for all sacrifice for our sins and transgressions on the cross.

Colossians 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; 14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

He nailed the inferior old covenant ordinances including animal sacrifices and offerings to the cross. He made the old covenant obsolete right then and there and established the new covenant with His blood. That is the covenant Daniel 9:27 is talking about.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Jesus said, "When YOU see the abomination of desolation..." & clearly it hasn't yet occurred, so His "yous" sometimes include future people.

And once again to both of you mistaken eisegetes, the hour of trial hasn't yet come upon THE WHOLE WORLD, as Jesus said. No getting by that FACT.
You are doing the same thing here that you do with Revelation 3:10. Taking it out of context and applying it to an entirely different time priod than the context indicates. Jesus knew that it wasn't going to be very long until what He said there would occur. He was talking there about what ended up happening in 70 AD so He knew that some of His disciples would still be alive at that point.

Here is the parallel passage from Luke:

Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

What is described here is exactly what ended up happening around 70 AD. The Roman armies came and surrounded Jerusalem and then ended up destroying the city and they destroyed the temple buildings just as Jesus said would happen (Matt 24:2, Mark 13:2, Luke 21:6). The disciples clearly asked Jesus 2 questions and one of them had to do with when the temple buildings would be destroyed as Jesus said they would be. Do you think He didn't answer that question?

He talked about the same event here:

Luke 19:41 And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it, 42 Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes. 43 For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side, 44 And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.

Do you not think that this has happened yet, either? If not, do you not know what happened in Jerusalem around 70 AD which was exactly like what Jesus described here? Which temple buildings did Jesus say would be destroyed with no stone left upon another? The ones standing at that time, right? Historical documents show that occurred around 70 AD.
 
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fwGod

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Well, your responses are definitely not impressive, so if that's your goal then you have succeeded.
I said that you were barking up the wrong tree if you think that I have to impress you with my responses. Therefore it doesn't matter if you weren't impressed.

My Biblical goal is to convey what I believe. You never caused me to question or doubt what I believe, you never persuaded me to convert to Amil. Therefore I have succeeded in holding fast my belief in the pretrib theology.
 
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jeffweedaman

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My Biblical goal is to convey what I believe. You never caused me to question or doubt what I believe, you never persuaded me to convert to Amil. Therefore I have succeeded in holding fast my belief in the pretrib theology.

Is there anything specific from what Jesus himself said , that causes you to hold fast in your belief of pretrib?

I have asked this more than once on this thread with no response.
 
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sovereigngrace

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I said that you were barking up the wrong tree if you think that I have to impress you with my responses. Therefore it doesn't matter if you weren't impressed.

My Biblical goal is to convey what I believe. You never caused me to question or doubt what I believe, you never persuaded me to convert to Amil. Therefore I have succeeded in holding fast my belief in the pretrib theology.

... yes, and yet you do not have one single proof-text. Amazing! This shows the enormity of the deceit involved in this doctrine. There is no biblical basis to it.
 
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fwGod

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You said this in response to me saying He already came once long ago. Are you suggesting that Jesus didn't already come once long ago?
You must have missed it when I said in my previous post "aside from Jesus being born". However if you are talking about something else, then specify.
There has never been such thing as a Gentile church. Show me where that is taught in scripture. Instead, it teaches that there is neither Jew nor Gentile in the church and that all believers, Jew or Gentile, are one in Christ Jesus in His church.
You are implying that there has never been a Gentile church based on that scripture. Then you will have to extend your disapproval to every Christian in this forum who refers to the church since the first century as a Gentile church.

I however in my previous post had made the distinction between the Jews of the gospels who did not and have not believed since the first century versus the NT church in the epistles who have and do believe.
I'm showing that there is only one second coming of Christ
The second coming of Christ is called that to make the distinction from the vastly different rapture coming of Christ.

The second coming of Christ is not implying that the birth of Jesus is prior to it. The Amil thus erroneously crunches the rapture and the second coming as the same event, just as the posttribbers do.
and He is not going to descend/come from heaven twice in the future as you believe.
That is a theological difference. However, when you say that mine is not right then consequently yours is not right. Because the door swings both ways.

I believe there is only one second coming. It happens seven years after the rapture, the sc is recorded in Rev.19. The purpose is to defeat the antichrist and the false prophet and throw them into the abyss. There is no text there that describes the rapture.

In 1 Thes.4 are the words "He shall descend with a shout". There is no other reason that He descends in that text but to rapture the church. There is no text there that describes the second coming.
Anyone reading this post would find you to be the one who is scatterbrained.
I've read other posts from others that are addressed to you. They aren't posting any objections to what I say, they are posting objections to what you say.
Look at the way you're talking to me in this post. And you're accusing me of using an offensive tone?
Are you being hypocritical?
I have not once said that the second coming is unbiblical.
How you can read your own words that clearly state you saying that the second coming is unbiblical and deny that you said it is astounding to anyone of good sense.
You are interpreting my words about as well as you interpret scripture.
Since you deceive yourself then your opinion of my interpretations have no hope of achieving your goal in giving it.
I'm saying that everything within 1 Thess 4:14-5:6 happens on the same day when Christ returns. Am I being clear enough for you here?
So you are saying that the rapture and the second coming happens on the same day?

The text clearly speaks of a catching away IN THE AIR. But it doesn't use the words second coming nor does it use words as Rev.19 does of His second coming TO THE EARTH.

The two different scripture references clearly speak of different events, at different times, with different purposes.
You deny that the rapture is a coming and then I showed you otherwise.
I don't deny the rapture at all, unless you read words then deceive yourself that I never said them.
And, now you're upset that I proved you wrong.
Now you deceive yourself that you have proved me wrong. That deception of yours is a much used tool for you isn't it? However little that it succeeds.
Can you tell me which post number you are referring to here? I don't recall you ever telling me this before.
I already stated that you and sovereigngrace are like peas in a pod so posting to both of you one after the other it's not unusual to get something like using bright colors for emphasis mistaken. If you are both the same person using two different identities.
I would not purposely try to cause you harm. If you think that's the kind of person I am then please just stop responding to me because I don't want anything to do with someone who thinks of me that way.
That kind of response is totally opposite of your usual discrediting, baiting and demeaning replies that you've posted to me. So what is the gentle act.. a portrayal in response to my depicting your usual tactics?
When I want to emphasize a certain part of scripture, I enlarge and bold it and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.
But you used THE SAME bright colors as sovereigngrace did when posting to me. It's very interesting that he hasn't been posting to me while you have.
A vast majority don't have a problem with the colors, either, but I will refrain from using colors to highlight text when I respond to you from now on because I do respect people enough to not try to harm them even if I disagree with them.
It's too bad that you don't have respect in refraining from your typical zingers when you post with those you theologically consider to be beneath you.
No, it is not. You are the first person to ever say anything about it. I color code text to show the similarities I see in two passages.
Exactly as sovereigngrace does.
There is nothing wrong with that the vast majority of the time, but it so happens that you are sensitive to it. So, I won't do it when I respond to you from now on.
I'm visually sensitive.
Paul isn't talking about just a rapture or catching up of Gentiles. It will be the catching up of both Jew and Gentile believers.
That is a given. I never made a distinction because all in the body of Christ are neither Jew or Greek.
Why do you try to separate (Jews from Gentiles) what Jesus brought together (Jew and Gentile believers) by His blood long ago (Eph 1:11-22, Gal 3:26-29, etc.)?
I didn't try to separate them.. I clearly made the distinction between Jews of the gospels that don't believe versus the NT believers which are both Jew and Greek.
If you see 1 Thess 4:13-5:6 as one event like I do then it lines up with what Paul taught elsewhere in 2 Thess 1:7-10, 2 Thess 2:1-12, and what Jesus taught in Matthew 24:29-51.
I have already stated in my previous post as well as in this one.. that I don't believe like you do.
Yes, how dare I see several similarities between two passages and conclude that they are speaking of the same event? Just because two passages don't contain all of the same details doesn't mean they can't be related.
That is the very reason why the the rapture and the second coming are different.
What is there about them that you think makes them the same? Answer: they both use the word "coming". That's the only thing that makes them in any degree similar.
Do you believe Mark 13:24-27 is the same event as Revelation 19:11-21? If so, how? They contain differing details, so based on your flawed method of interpretation they can't relate to each other.
That's right, they are not similar. Because I didn't try to say that they were. But now you're implying that I did.

I replied in my previous post Do you believe in the “caught up together” event in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17?

to your use of Mat.24:29 .. to say that Rev.6:16 is the same event.

Mat.24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

Rev.6:12-13 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

You continued with vs.30 of Mat.24.. and I replied to compare it with Rev.19:11-16.
 
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Douggg

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Is there anything specific from what Jesus himself said , that causes you to hold fast in your belief of pretrib?

I have asked this more than once on this thread with no response.
I am anytime rapture view, which considers that the rapture could take place before the 70th week begins.

Some verses are Luke 21:34-36, to escape. v34 indicates a time of ease, peace. The time when men's hearts will fail them because of fear of what they see right before Jesus coming in power and glory v25-26 - comes on them who dwell on the earth like a snare.

Matthew 24:32-51, Jesus comes for them who consider him Lord.
No-one knows the day nor hour, which Jesus comes. One taken, one left. The faithful and unfaithful servant. v46-51.

1Thessalonians5, before the Day of the Lord begins, when wrath takes place. Believers not appointed to wrath. Not overtaken by that day (going back to Luke 21:34-36, like a snare), because they know the times and season (the parable of the fig tree for the season). Rapture in v9-11. v11 a repeat of 1Thessalonians4:18.


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fwGod

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... yes, and yet you do not have one single proof-text.
I don't lock myself into "one proof text" because the pretrib rapture theology can be started by whichever text that any end-times prophecy teacher may choose to begin with.

So in that way I'm not like you and spiritual Jew who do begin with the exact same Bible text. It must be that you were taught by the same Amil teachers who always start with the same ole same ole without any individual variety whatsoever.

I say too,
sovereigngrace said:
This shows the enormity of the deceit involved in this doctrine.
Not having a cookie cutter proof text does not indicate a deception with the doctrine. You only erroneously use it to say that it does. Your opinion fails.
There is no biblical basis to it.
You have not proved that. So according to your way of measuring things, your goal has not been successful.
 
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Is there anything specific from what Jesus himself said , that causes you to hold fast in your belief of pretrib?

I have asked this more than once on this thread with no response.
Really?, no response whatsoever?.. that's surprising.. but with douggg answering too above, now you have two.

The most common way to respond to the question is to say that Jesus never taught the pretrib to the Jews of the gospels because it is particular to the NT church. The Jews of themselves as a large group did not in the gospels nor do most Jews now believe in Jesus.

So there's nothing specific that Jesus said in the gospels that would apply to the pretrib rapture. However, there are a number of pretribbers who give the text John 14:3 supplying their pretrib theology to it. But for reasons that I've said above, I think that it's not talking about the rapture of the church.
I've used it in a general sense myself from time to time before I had studied it out more carefully but I believe that it more specifically refers to the Millennium which the Jews have in their own theology.

There's the other gospel text that Jesus spoke in Lk.21:36 of being worthy to escape. Again many pretribbers apply that according to pretrib rapture theology. But again, it more likely refers to something in the Jewish theology. Such as God protecting them from death similar to the Passover. Jesus told them that when they see the abomination of desolation to flee to the wilderness. In Revelation it says that they do. And that they are protected there from the metaphoric dragon.
 
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You must have missed it when I said in my previous post "aside from Jesus being born". However if you are talking about something else, then specify.
No, not something else. That's the first coming of Christ that all of us here believe in, including me.

You are implying that there has never been a Gentile church based on that scripture. Then you will have to extend your disapproval to every Christian in this forum who refers to the church since the first century as a Gentile church.
Where are you getting that from? That is absolutely false. I'm pretty sure most Christians on this forum recognize what Paul taught here:

Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

This is a description of the church. Does it look like Paul taught a Gentile church here? Not at all. Instead, he taught there that was neither Jew nor Greek/Gentile in the church and that we, Jew and Gentile believers, are all one in Christ Jesus. It is not a Gentile church, it is a Jew and Gentile believer church with Jesus Christ as the chief cornerstone (Eph 2:20).

I however in my previous post had made the distinction between the Jews of the gospels who did not and have not believed since the first century versus the NT church in the epistles who have and do believe.
Why do you act as if no Jews have believed during the NT era? Of course there have been. Paul spoke about the remnant of believers in his day (Romans 11:5). There is no Gentile church. That is not taught in scripture at all. Scripture teaches that Jew and Gentile believers are together as one. Read Ephesians 2:11-22 which makes that abundantly clear.

The second coming of Christ is called that to make the distinction from the vastly different rapture coming of Christ.
His second coming is not ever specifically called "the second coming of Christ". One time it refers to Him appearing a second time (Heb 9:28). Otherwise, it's called "the coming of the Lord" in 1 Thess 4:15, "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" in 1 Thess 5:23, 2 Thess 2:1 and 2 Peter 1:16, "the coming of the Son of man" several times in Matthew 24-25 (Mark 13, Luke 21), and "the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ" in Titus 2:13

The second coming of Christ is not implying that the birth of Jesus is prior to it. The Amil thus erroneously crunches the rapture and the second coming as the same event, just as the posttribbers do.
That is a theological difference. However, when you say that mine is not right then consequently yours is not right. Because the door swings both ways.
I have no idea what you're saying here. When He came almost 2,000 years ago that was His first coming. Why do you not accept that "the coming of the Lord" referenced in 1 Thess 4:15 is His second coming?

I believe there is only one second coming. It happens seven years after the rapture, the sc is recorded in Rev.19. The purpose is to defeat the antichrist and the false prophet and throw them into the abyss. There is no text there that describes the rapture.
Let's put this method of interpretation to the test. I'm talking about the method of interpretation you're using here which says that if one detail in one passage is missing from another passage then the two passages can't be speaking of the same event.

I assume you believe that Matthew 24:29-31 and Revelation 19:11-21 are both speaking of the same event, the second coming of Christ, right? Well, there is no mention of the gathering of the elect in Revelation 19:11-21, so that means Matthew 24:29-31 can't be referring to the same event as Revelation 19:11-21, right? At least, that would be true using the same kind of logic you're using to conclude that Revelation 19:11-21 can't refer to the time of the rapture.

In 1 Thes.4 are the words "He shall descend with a shout". There is no other reason that He descends in that text but to rapture the church. There is no text there that describes the second coming.
You mean other than the reference to "the coming of the Lord" in 1 Thess 4:15? I guess that's some other coming of Christ besides the second coming?

I've read other posts from others that are addressed to you. They aren't posting any objections to what I say, they are posting objections to what you say.
Okay, sure. You just go ahead and believe that.

Are you being hypocritical?
How you can read your own words that clearly state you saying that the second coming is unbiblical and deny that you said it is astounding to anyone of good sense.
When did I say the second coming is unbiblical? I didn't. Stop lying. I'm saying that passages like 1 Thess 4:13-5:6, 2 Thess 1:7-10, Matt 24:29-31 and Rev 19:11-21 are all referring to the second coming of Christ. How am I saying that the second coming is unbiblical by saying that? Again, stop lying.

Since you deceive yourself then your opinion of my interpretations have no hope of achieving your goal in giving it.
So you are saying that the rapture and the second coming happens on the same day?
Yes, isn't that clear from all that I've said? Are you just completely oblivious to any view but your own? Do you perhaps have a reading comprehension problem? Is that the reason why you're not understanding what I'm telling you about what I believe?

I said that I believe 1 Thess 4:13-5:9 is one narrative which speaks both of what happens to believers on the day Christ returns (caught up to meet the Lord in the air) and also what happens to unbelievers on that same day He returns ("sudden destruction" comes upon them from which "they shall not escape"). Same thing Paul taught in 2 Thess 1:7-10 as well.

2 Thess 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Do you believe that verse 10 of this passage refers to what will happen at the rapture, which is that Christ will "be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe...in that day"?

If so, what do verses 7-9 say will also happen on that day?

The text clearly speaks of a catching away IN THE AIR. But it doesn't use the words second coming nor does it use words as Rev.19 does of His second coming TO THE EARTH.
Where does Revelation 19 use the words "second coming"?

The two different scripture references clearly speak of different events, at different times, with different purposes.
No, they do not. That's only in your imagination. Show me where Revelation 19 says anything about Him coming to the earth.

I don't deny the rapture at all, unless you read words then deceive yourself that I never said them.
Now you deceive yourself that you have proved me wrong. That deception of yours is a much used tool for you isn't it? However little that it succeeds.
I'm not being deceptive at all. I'm being very upfront about what I believe. No deception is required. If you disagree, so be it. But, to accuse me of being deceptive is a lie in itself.

I already stated that you and sovereigngrace are like peas in a pod so posting to both of you one after the other it's not unusual to get something like using bright colors for emphasis mistaken.
That's a pretty lame excuse for getting on me for doing it. Don't blame me for your lack of ability to tell two different people apart. You're not the only pre-trib rapture believer on this forum, but I don't mistake you for anyone else.

If you are both the same person using two different identities.
You are hilarious. No, we are not the same person at all. Very similar endtimes beliefs, sure, but not the same person. Sorry to disappoint you.

That kind of response is totally opposite of your usual discrediting, baiting and demeaning replies that you've posted to me. So what is the gentle act.. a portrayal in response to my depicting your usual tactics?
Do you think you've been anything but hostile and insulting in this post? It seems to be the type of language you understand.

But you used THE SAME bright colors as sovereigngrace did when posting to me. It's very interesting that he hasn't been posting to me while you have.
LOL! I one time used red and blue colors to show the parts of passages that I saw as being similar and that makes me just like him? He often uses all red to highlight sections of scripture that he wants to highlight. I don't do that. We are not the same person. You are making a fool out of yourself here. Please stop.

It's too bad that you don't have respect in refraining from your typical zingers when you post with those you theologically consider to be beneath you.
You have posted plenty of your own zingers, so take the plank out of your own eye before judging me.

I'm visually sensitive.
Sorry to hear that. I'm also saddened that you thought I would purposely disregard you asking to not post bright colors. I would not do that. You have judged me from the beginning. If you have an issue with another poster, so be it. Don't drag me into that.

That is a given. I never made a distinction because all in the body of Christ are neither Jew or Greek.
I didn't try to separate them.. I clearly made the distinction between Jews of the gospels that don't believe versus the NT believers which are both Jew and Greek.
What did Jesus say about the Jewish leaders who didn't believe in Matthew 23? Why do you give them special treatment when Jesus Himself didn't? Of course, we want all Jewish unbelievers to repent and believe just like all unbelievers, but God is not a respecter of persons. Why are you?

I have already stated in my previous post as well as in this one.. that I don't believe like you do.
That is the very reason why the the rapture and the second coming are different.
What is there about them that you think makes them the same? Answer: they both use the word "coming". That's the only thing that makes them in any degree similar.
Both speak of a gathering of believers at the coming of Christ. I would say 1 Thess 4:13-18 has just as much in common with Matthew 24:29-31 as Revelation 19:11-21 does, yet you choose to only see Revelation 19:11-21 as being the same event and not 1 Thess 4:13-18. That seems very selective on your part.
 
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I am anytime rapture view, which considers that the rapture could take place before the 70th week begins.

How is that specific of what Jesus said. You posted no scripture or verse of what Jesus said. You avoided the question yet again.

How could the rapture occur before atonement has taken place? The rapture involves our glorification..., and that is reliant on the 70th week atonement having already taken place.
Please tell me you understand this fact.

You are never ever going to be raptured and glorified without Christs blood atoning for your sins in the 70th week.
 
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Douggg

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How is that specific of what Jesus said. You posted no scripture or verse of what Jesus said. You avoided the question yet again.
There was more to my post than that one sentence.

How could the rapture occur before atonement has taken place? The rapture involves our glorification..., and that is reliant on the 70th week atonement having already taken place.
Please tell me you understand this fact.

You are never ever going to be raptured and glorified without Christs blood atoning for your sins in the 70th week.
jeff, I have no idea why you are tying in Jesus's atonement for sin on the cross with the timing of the rapture.

The season when the rapture will take place and the end times events leading up to Jesus's return take place, is the parable of the fig tree generation.
 
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I am anytime rapture view, which considers that the rapture could take place before the 70th week begins.

Some verses are Luke 21:34-36, to escape. v34 indicates a time of ease, peace. The time when men's hearts will fail them because of fear of what they see right before Jesus coming in power and glory v25-26 - comes on them who dwell on the earth like a snare.

Matthew 24:32-51, Jesus comes for them who consider him Lord.
No-one knows the day nor hour, which Jesus comes. One taken, one left. The faithful and unfaithful servant. v46-51.
Here is what will happen to the unfaithful servant on that day.

Matt 24:50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, 51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Do you somehow see the unfaithful servants as surviving and continuing to live their lives when Matthew 24:46-51 occurs? If so, how can that be?

Jesus mentioned that there would be weeping and gnashing of teeth at this point. Does that suggest the people who weep and gnash their teeth continue on with their lives when believers are caught up to Christ? Let's use scripture to interpret scripture and find out.

Matthew 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. 41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Matthew 13:47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind: 48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away. 49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, 50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

These passages indicate that those who weep or wail and gnash their teeth are those who are cast "into a furnace of fire" and it indicates that this will happen "at the end of this world" (or end of this age - Greek: aion). That doesn't give the impression at all that it occurs before the 70th week begins and also doesn't indicate that those who weep or wail and gnash their teeth get to continue living their lives after Christ comes for His own.

Instead, it indicates that they are "cast into a furnace of fire" which is a similar description to what other scripture says happens to unbelievers on judgment day (Matt 25:41, Rev 20:15). Other scripture just does not support your interpretation of Matthew 24:46-51 at all. You interpret it in such a way that unbelievers survive that event and continue living after that when scripture is clear that they will not and they will be judged and cast into the fire on that day.
 
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