You don't believe God dwells within the hearts of every believer now or that we presently have eternal life?
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Abomination of Desolation in Luke?
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Is this a serious question as if you think it's possible I would answer no to this question? What Christian would not understand that God dwells within the hearts of every believer?
While it's true that God (the Holy Spirit) dwells in us spiritually now, it's also true that we will dwell with Him on the new earth one day. Preterists like yourself don't seem to be able to differentiate between the two realities.
Do you think the following has already happened?
1 John 3:1 See what great love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him. 2 Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. 3 All who have this hope in him purify themselves, just as he is pure.
How about the following?
2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare. 11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.
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Revelation 21:1 Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”
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I believe that you're not thinking this through carefully enough. When our souls and spirits go to be with the Lord when we die, which you agreed is what 2 Corinthians 5:6-8 is about, that is not a resurrection. A resurrection is when you go from death to life. Our souls and spirits do not die and then get resurrected and go to heaven. Do you understand that? The resurrection refers to the resurrection of our BODIES. Our bodies do not get resurrected until the second coming of Christ at the last trumpet (1 Cor 15:20-23,50-54).
What are you intending to say about "the last day" here? That you think Martha was referring to the last day of each person's life? That seems to be what you're saying. But, that is not what John 11:24 means. The last day has not yet occurred and it's not referring to the last day of each person's life, but rather to the last day of this earth as we know it which is the day Christ will return.
John 6:39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”
John 12:47 “If anyone hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge that person. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day.
Notice here that Jesus clearly indicates that there will be a literal last day in which "everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him" will be resurrected. Clearly, that day has not yet occurred as there are many of the dead in Christ still awaiting their resurrection on the last day "at the last trumpet" (1 Cor 15:50-54).
And notice on that same last day unbelievers will be condemned. That day has clearly not yet occurred either. It will happen when Christ comes in His glory with His angels which is when He will cast "all whose names are not written in the book of life" into "everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels", which is "the lake of fire", which is "the second death", which results in "everlasting punishment", "everlasting destruction", and being "tormented day and night for ever and ever" while being "shut out from the presence of the Lord" (Matt 25:31,41,46; Rev 20:10-15; 2 Thess 1:7-10).
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I was just pointing out that's the conclusion one could draw from the statement that His future coming results in Him dwelling with us.
In my belief (and in the belief of traditional orthodoxy) the "new heavens/new earth" refers to the New Covenant.....the interception of God & humanity. That is present.....we are His dwelling place on earth:
Ephesians 2:22
And in Him you too are being built together into a dwelling place for God in His Spirit.
And in Him you too are being built together into a dwelling place for God in His Spirit.
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Because we believe the two "realities" stem from a misunderstanding of Hebrew idioms. "Heaven & earth" is covenant language....referring to God dwelling with His covenant people.
Rejecting the fulfillment of that based on misunderstanding idioms is equivalent to rejecting someone's claim that it's pouring rain outside just because the used the idiom "raining cats and dogs" but no cats or dogs are seen falling from the sky.....just water. Thus....reality is rejected based on a misunderstanding.
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This was just posted in reference to John 11:24-26 (which is clearly about resurrection.....is it not?):
Martha said to him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day."
25Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in Me will live, even though he dies. 26And everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?”
25Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in Me will live, even though he dies. 26And everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?”
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You're not differentiating between the already and not yet. It's that "not yet" part that you are not comprehending. The last day has not yet arrived. The last trumpet has not yet sounded. We still all await the redemption of our bodies that will occur at His future return.
The following passage reference our future hope:
Philippians 3:20 But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body.
1 John 3:1 Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. 3 All who have this hope in him purify themselves, just as he is pure.
Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. 12 It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, 13 while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.
How can you think that what is described in these passages has already happened? Notice that Paul said he and his fellow believers were eagerly waiting "for the blessed hope--the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ", so it had not happened yet.
So, when will Jesus come to "transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like His glorious body" at which point "we shall see Him as He is"? Do you think this already happened in 70 AD? No way. What hope is there for those of us who have lived since 70 AD if passages like this aren't meant for all believers to look forward to its fulfillment?
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What type of resurrection? Please address the points I made in post #244 about what type of resurrection this refers to and what occurs on the last day.
Also, please remind me again of what you think is not yet fulfilled? You continually give me the impression that you are a full preterist. Do you think that sin and death will occur on the earth for eternity?
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Well.....let's see what Scripture (specifically John) says about "the last day" using the law of first mention.
John first used the term here (from my search):
John 6:39-40
And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that I shall lose none of those He has given Me, but raise them up at the last day. For it is My Father’s will that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.”
and also in these passages:And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that I shall lose none of those He has given Me, but raise them up at the last day. For it is My Father’s will that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.”
John 6:44
“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:54
Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 7:37
On the last and greatest day of the feast, Jesus stood up and called out in a loud voice, “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink..
John 11:24
Martha replied, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”
“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:54
Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 7:37
On the last and greatest day of the feast, Jesus stood up and called out in a loud voice, “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink..
John 11:24
Martha replied, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”
John 12:48
There is a judge for the one who rejects Me and does not receive My words: The word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day.
There is a judge for the one who rejects Me and does not receive My words: The word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day.
My belief is that this "last day" is the final end of the Mosaic Covenant days....the end of the period known as "night" and into "light"....the time of the everlasting covenant....the covenant of peace. I believe the fulfillment of the last day was the fulfillment of Daniel 12:1-2. Daniel 12:7 gives insight to the timing:
Daniel 12:7
And I heard the man dressed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, as he raised his right hand and his left toward heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever that it would be for a time, times, and half a time; and as soon as they finish shattering the power of the holy people, all these events will be completed.
And I heard the man dressed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, as he raised his right hand and his left toward heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever that it would be for a time, times, and half a time; and as soon as they finish shattering the power of the holy people, all these events will be completed.
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The implication of this statement is that our bodies are separate from our souls in that Christ only has redeemed (brought back to Himself) our souls. To me.....that negates what the incarnation message was. It seems gnostic to argue that our bodies are not yet redeemed.
However.....I do believe we will have some sort of glorified body in the future just as Adam and Eve (I believe) must have had prior to the Fall. Our bodies now aren't eternal.
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That's why I asked earlier if you are still waiting for "that day". It seems to me you're still are waiting by reading this response. This says, "everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him" will be resurrected (brought from death to life). I see that as fulfilled. I believe we presently have eternal life.
Romans 6:4
We were therefore buried with Him through baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may walk in newness of life.
We were therefore buried with Him through baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may walk in newness of life.
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To me, your two statements here contradict each other. If you believe that it's "gnostic to argue that our bodies are not yet redeemed" then it doesn't follow for you to "believe we will have some sort of glorified body in the future". Not sure how anyone could argue otherwise after reading 1 Corinthians 15, so I'm glad you believe that, at least.
By the way, is there some reason why you create separate posts for each response to things I've said? Do you not know how to quote more than one thing that someone said within one post? I'm just curious because I saw my alerts and there was a bunch of them just for your responses to me and it confused me at first because I know I didn't created that many posts in response to you. But, I realize now that you create a separate new post for every response you make.
It's not a huge deal, I suppose, but it's easier if you don't have so many separate posts that I have to open and reply to.
Anyway, we are clearly far apart in our beliefs on this and I have reached my endpoint here as I don't feel like continuing this particular conversation any longer. We will just have to agree to disagree.
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I'm glad you mentioned that Paul and his fellow believers were *eagerly* waiting "for the blessed hope" of the resurrection. Since you've said that hasn't occurred yet, do you think Paul was confused about the timing?
I've been reading through your posts and quoting and responding as I had time (while I'm busy doing other things as well). A lot of the posts had multiple points and responding all at once would take up too much time (sometimes losing entire long posts I'd typed out). I apologize if it's made things inconvenient.
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For one thing the blessed hope is "the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ" (Titus 2:13). Yes, the resurrection of the dead happens at that time as well but I just thought you should know what the blessed hope actually is.
And I think you are confused about the timing. Paul gave no indication of the timing there as if he knew when the glorious appearing of Jesus and the resurrection of the dead would occur. If he knew when it would happen then why did he say this:
1 Thess 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
Paul knew that the timing of Christ's return wasn't known as Jesus Himself said no one knew the day or hour of His coming except for the Father, not even Him (Matt 24:36). So, he didn't write about the timing because it wasn't known. Jesus will come as a thief in the night, so the blessed hope of His glorious appearing isn't something we can circle on the calendar. But, here you are acting like Paul somehow knew when it would happen? No, he did not.
But, since Christ's glorious appearing could happen any time he and all believers of his time and ever since are eagerly waiting for the blessed hope of the appearance of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. If you are not eagerly waiting for His appearing then I feel sorry for you and I wonder what is your hope for the future?
No problem. Just wondered why you did that, but now I know. Thanks for the explanation.
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Timtofly
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Those who belong to Him were freed from captivity at the second Jesus said, "It is finished". Those souls were the firstfruits on the Cross itself. Those who do come bodily back with Jesus the Lamb in the 6th Seal. In fact absent from the body present with the Lord, means exactly that. They return bodily with Christ, so already have a body prior to the Second Coming. Where does it state souls come to claim a new body with Christ at the Second Coming? The 5th Seal already shows them glorified. The soul is stressed by John, because of Adam's second death (of the soul) was the separation of his spirit, literally he lost the robe of white, they in the 5th Seal were putting on this robe of white over their permanent incorruptible bodies. The first resurrection is a permanent body, the second resurrection is the robe of white. The first birth of the soul is a physical body, the second birth of the soul is a quickening spirit. WHO'S Spirit? The Holy Spirit, because ours is with God, until the church is glorified as one.
Matthew said many bodies came out of the graves at the Cross. Those were the permanent incorruptible bodies, but not glorified. The first resurrection is of the body, the second resurrection, at the Second Coming, is of the spirit, the robe of white. God does not have to literally spell out every word when addressing a topic. You reject God spelling out a literal 1000 years about 6 times in Revelation 20. One cannot get any clearer than that. Yet you demand, it seems, God be much clearer on other points. Those in Revelation 20:4 get a first resurrection body, permanent and incorruptible, but not glorified. They have marriage and make babies to populate the nations for 1000 years. That is the first resurrection type, bodily. Will they ever get their spirit? We are not told. We do not know. Some reject they get to live 1000 years, and all eternity. They condemn these folks, when God gives them Grace.
Very long life is very plausible because corruptible body Adam and his corruptible offspring also lived up to 900+ years. These incorruptible body resurrected souls, get a permanent eternal body that can never sin, die, nor have to be tossed into the lake of fire. They get Adam's life in reverse. Adam disobeyed God and died. God chose sinful flesh of Adam, killed their Adam body and gave them Adam's original body minus the spirit, ar least we are not told, because they were not told to multiply with the full image of God. Their offspring have the choice to obey Christ or Die into Death, not sheol. The rod of iron is not the age of being sealed by the Holy Spirit. There is no liberty of choice in outright disobedience. Disobey and Die. There will be plenty of things to do without being a sinner. It is wrong to attempt to rationalize current conditions with this reign of Christ or try to insert this future life into present conditions. At the end of this Day with the Lord, will be when this reality will be destroyed like Peter claims.
Have 1000 years of longsuffering on these people like God has. Being patient with the lost now is eternal glorified life. But the Second Coming could happen at any moment. Who are these people that treated you like God would treat you, even if they seem dead in their sin? There are people today who are turned off by the testimony of the harlot church. They will one day ask God, when did we do these things in your name? If you are a church member in the least way, or a great way, these people will have helped you in some way, and you have not even realized it. They did not, and you may not either, but think about it. They may rise up and be your judge when it comes to handing out rewards. Yet your eschatology condemns these people to the lake of fire, as if they do not even exist.
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Timtofly
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Those God gave Christ at the last day of the Cross covers the OT sense of the last day. All were bodily resurrected, and set free from Abraham's bosom.
You just claim the church post the bodily resurrection do not see a body in this absent from the body, present in Paradise condition?
The OT saints have their bodies as part of the first resurrection. The NT saints are just souls walking around looking at the bodies of the OT saints, wondering why they have to wait 1990 years for their bodies?
And only those martyred get a robe of white, glorified body?
Those who die in their sleep do not get one per John?
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claninja
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So then you agree that while the first section stands, the way into the most holy place is not yet manifest, correct?
1.) I don't deny a future bodily resurrection, so please refrain from strawman arguments. I believe in a future resurrection. I know I am not in my future resurrected body as I type this, and I assume you are not in your resurrected body either....
2.) Doesn't change the fact, that you still believe that when the believer's soul rises to heaven, they will never die again nor partake in earthly marriage.
This is where I am confused about your belief. You state the new covenant was "fully realized" at the cross or around the time of the spirit, but then say it will be "consummated" in the future.....doesn't make sense. IF you stated "inaugurated" at the cross and then consummated at the 2nd coming, then I your position would make sense.
1.) Yes, people were saved by the blood of Christ prior to 70ad, and after 30-33ad. The new covenant being inaugurated in Christ's blood. Were people resurrected into their new bodies and living in the new heavens and earth as part of the new covenant in 30-33 ad?
2.) You just stated the consummation, which means completion/fulfillment, is future. So I'm not following your reasoning that it is "fully in effect" now and yet needs to be consummated in the future?
You mean bengel? I see nothing wrong with using "historicist premil" resources on understanding expressions not related to eschatology, especially when they agree with amil sources.
the expression "from the uttermost parts of heaven" refers to the whole world and not the literal abode of God. Can you provide evidence to the contrary of this instead of deflecting with "well that's a premil source"? Premils also believe Jesus is the son of God who died for our sins, should I reject that because they also believe it?
The destruction of Jerusalem in 66-70, fulfilled the days of vengeance in regards to all that was written. It is during this time that Jerusalem would be trampled by the nations, until the times of the gentiles is fulfilled.
Luke 21:20-24 But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it, for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written. Alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! For there will be great distress upon the earth and wrath against this people. They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
The trampling is of Jerusalem by gentiles is 42 months. Thus consistent with Mark and Matthew, that the son of man would come the clouds and send his angels to gather the elect "immediately/in the days" after the tribulation of Jerusalem.
revelation 11:1-2 Then I was given a measuring rod like a staff, and I was told, “Rise and measure the temple of God and the altar and those who worship there, but do not measure the court outside the temple; leave that out, for it is given over to the Gentiles, and they will trample the holy city for forty-two months.
So you don't believe that death and hades have victory any more? So then you believe the mortal already puts on immortality? Because the saying "death is swallowed up in victory...." comes to pass when the perishable puts on the imperishable. Do you believe this passage in regards to Christ resurrection or in regards to our future resurrection? I believe it is a reference to revelation 20:14, in which death and hades are thrown into the lake of fire.
1 corinthians 15:54-55 When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.” “O death, where is your victory? O hades, where is your sting?”
1 corinthians 15:24-26 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death
Revelation 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death—the lake of fire
Revelation 21:1-4 = new covenant language. I agree with Eusebius' stance:
EUSEBIUS Bishop of Caesarea (c. 265 - 340) Extract from the 'Theophania' "All authorities concur in the declaration that "when all these things should have been done" "The End" should come : that "the mystery of God should be finished as he had declared to His servants the prophets" : it should be completed : time should now be no more : the End of all things (so foretold) should be at hand, and be fully brought to pass : in these days should be fulfilled all that had been spoken of Christ (and of His church) by the prophets : or, in other words, when the gospel should have been preached in all the world for a testimony to all nations, and the power of the Holy People be scattered (abroad), then should the End come, then should all these things be finished. I need now only say, all these things have been done : the old and elementary system passed away with a great noise; all these predicted empires have actually fallen, and the new kingdom, the new heaven and earth, the new Jerusalem--all of which were to descend from God, to be formed by His power, have been realized on earth; all these things have been done in the sight of all the nations ; God's holy arm has been made bare in their sight: His judgments have prevailed, and they remain for an everlasting testimony to the whole world. His kingdom has come, as it was foretold it should, and His will has, so far, been done; His purposes have been finished; and, from that day to the extreme end of time, it will be the duty, as indeed it will be the great privilege of the Church, to gather into its bosom the Jew, the Greek, the Scythian, the Barbarian, bond and free; and to do this as the Apostles did in their days--in obedience, faith and hope.'
Because Jesus stated it would occur IMMEDIATELY after the tribulation of Jerusalem.
Matthew 24:29-31
Immediately after the tribulation of those days: ‘The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.b’30At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven,c and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.d 31And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
Where did I say resurrection in 70ad?
What you believed happened at the cross onward: souls of dead believers rising to heaven to never die nor partake in the earthly form of marriage, I instead believe occurred from 70ad and onward.
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