Do you believe in the “caught up together” event in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17?

Douggg · Dec 10, 2020

Spiritual Jew said:
The "Ezekiel 39 infallible timeline framework for the end times". You just like saying that, don't you? Too bad it's not even close to being infallible. It's quite fallible. What good is your timeline when it's full of errors as yours is? None.

How complicated is this that you cannot understand it?

sovereigngrace · Dec 10, 2020

Douggg said:
Amil view has no timeline of events to duck around. Amil is basically a idealist philosophical view that doesn't deal in bible prophecy. Endtimes Eventism, on the other hand, produces a timeline for end times bible prophecy events.

Not so. We go with Scripture. Not fanciful man-made charts - as you put your trust.

sovereigngrace · Dec 10, 2020

Douggg said:
How complicated is this that you cannot understand it?

View attachment 290399

You have cleary bereft of any Scripture.

Where is the Church mentioned in Ezekiel 39?
Where is a rapture of the Church in Ezekiel 39?
Where is a 7 year tribulation mentioned in Ezekiel 39?
Where is a 3rd coming in Ezekiel 39?
Where is a future millennium mentioned in Ezekiel 39?

There are none of the elements your teachers have falsely taught you in Ezekiel 39. The doctrine is non-existent.

Douggg · Dec 11, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
You have cleary bereft of any Scripture.

Where is the Church mentioned in Ezekiel 39?
Where is a rapture of the Church in Ezekiel 39?
Where is a 7 year tribulation mentioned in Ezekiel 39?
Where is a 3rd coming in Ezekiel 39?
Where is a future millennium mentioned in Ezekiel 39?

There are none of the elements your teachers have falsely taught you in Ezekiel 39. The doctrine is non-existent.

Ezekiel 39 provides the infallible timeline framework for end time events. End times events are found throughout the bible. So, I won't be playing your little game.

Amil is based up denial principles, so it cannot function in the way of producing a timeline.

Douggg · Dec 11, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Not so. We go with Scripture. Not fanciful man-made charts - as you put your trust.

The scriptures are not a result of the charts, but the scriptures are the basis for the charts.

robycop3 · Dec 11, 2020

Spiritual Jew said:
First, you show me where it indicates that Jesus was addressing people other than the first century church of Philadelphia in that text.

Rev. 3"10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

that trial has not yet come. The Roman empire was not the whole world. When Jesus said "the whole world", that's what He meant.

What do you mean? Can you tell me exactly which part of Revelation 3:7-10 you believe was addressed specifically to the first century church of Philadelphia?

Rev. 3:8 “I know your works. See, I have set before you an open door, and no one can shut it; for you have a little strength, have kept My word, and have not denied My name.

robycop3 · Dec 11, 2020

Spiritual Jew said:
How can He keep the Philadelphia church from it when they all died a long time ago?

For one, there are still Christians in modern Alashevir, which was ancient Philadelphia. They're an island of Christians in a sea of Moslems. And the old Christians are in paradise now; they're certainly kept from the coming trial. But you must remember that trial has NOT yet come. It'll be the great trib.

robycop3 · Dec 11, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
You are deliberately misrepresenting Amil. You must because you have no answer for the many climactic Scriptures presented by Amils. You can only duck around the evidence for so long.

Amil is Christ-centered. It sees Scripture's focus upon His first and second Advents. Pretrib denies this narrative. They invent an imaginary coming in- between these 2 pivotal events.

The rapture is not Jesus' return. He calls the saints to Him in the sky; He does not then return to earth. He brings the saints to Him; He does not come to them.

robycop3 · Dec 11, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
You are deliberately misrepresenting Amil. You must because you have no answer for the many climactic Scriptures presented by Amils. You can only duck around the evidence for so long.

Amil is Christ-centered. It sees Scripture's focus upon His first and second Advents. Pretrib denies this narrative. They invent an imaginary coming in- between these 2 pivotal events.

then how come amils deliberately ignore the Scriptures that plainly prophesy a millenium-long reign of Jesus upon this earth before God makes everything new, specifically Rev. 20:4-7 ?

sovereigngrace · Dec 11, 2020

robycop3 said:
then how come amils deliberately ignore the Scriptures that plainly prophesy a millenium-long reign of Jesus upon this earth before God makes everything new, specifically Rev. 20:4-7 ?

Amils never ignore Rev 20. It supports the doctrine. It relates to the here-and-now. Jesus and the saints have been reigning since the first resurrection.

sovereigngrace · Dec 11, 2020

robycop3 said:
Rev. 3"10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

that trial has not yet come. The Roman empire was not the whole world. When Jesus said "the whole world", that's what He meant.

Rev. 3:8 “I know your works. See, I have set before you an open door, and no one can shut it; for you have a little strength, have kept My word, and have not denied My name.

You are not addressing Amil evidence. The text and history disprove your claims.

sovereigngrace · Dec 11, 2020

robycop3 said:
The rapture is not Jesus' return. He calls the saints to Him in the sky; He does not then return to earth. He brings the saints to Him; He does not come to them.

The catching away is the end. Check out 1 Thessalonians 4-2 Thessalonians 5.

Spiritual Jew · Dec 11, 2020

Douggg said:
Amil view has no timeline of events to duck around. Amil is basically a idealist philosophical view that doesn't deal in bible prophecy.

That is utter nonsense and you know it. Just because we don't believe the Bible gives the exact timing for every single thing that will happen doesn't mean our view "doesn't deal in Bible prophecy". We recognize when things have already been fulfilled or have ongoing fulfillments instead of assuming everything is yet to be fulfilled as in your extremist futurism beliefs.

Your dishonesty about Amil is unbecoming of a Christian. Lying is not a Christian character trait.

Spiritual Jew · Dec 11, 2020

Douggg said:
How complicated is this that you cannot understand it?

View attachment 290399

I understand that that is a false timeline since the 70th week is already fulfilled. Congratulations on your chart making skills, though. I'm glad you enjoy making them even though they are useless.

Douggg · Dec 11, 2020

Spiritual Jew said:
That is utter nonsense and you know it. Just because we don't believe the Bible gives the exact timing for every single thing that will happen doesn't mean our view "doesn't deal in Bible prophecy". We recognize when things have already been fulfilled or have ongoing fulfillments instead of assuming everything is yet to be fulfilled as in your extremist futurism beliefs.

Your dishonesty about Amil is unbecoming of a Christian. Lying is not a Christian character trait.

Then present an undated timeline chart with the end time events on it in the correct order.

Spiritual Jew · Dec 11, 2020

robycop3 said:
Rev. 3"10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

that trial has not yet come. The Roman empire was not the whole world. When Jesus said "the whole world", that's what He meant.

I'm not going to waste any more time arguing with you about the timing of it. The fact that Jesus was specifically addressing the 1st century church in Philadelphia there is undeniable. But, even if what He said was still to occur in the future, it would have nothing to do with anyone being taken off of the earth. If that's what Jesus wanted for His followers at any time in history then He would not have prayed this:

John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil...20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

Rev. 3:8 “I know your works. See, I have set before you an open door, and no one can shut it; for you have a little strength, have kept My word, and have not denied My name.

Well, that's very selective of you to think that is the only verse where He was speaking to those in the church at Philadelphia. Let's see if that can hold up to scrutiny.

Revelation 3:7 “To the angel of the church in Philadelphia write: These are the words of him who is holy and true, who holds the key of David. What he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open. 8 I know your deeds. See, I have placed before you an open door that no one can shut. I know that you have little strength, yet you have kept my word and have not denied my name. 9 I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews though they are not, but are liars—I will make them come and fall down at your feet and acknowledge that I have loved you. 10 Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth.

Nope, your claim that He was only talking to them in verse 8 fails to hold up to scrutiny. Every occurrence of the words "your" and "you" are referring to the same people in these verses. To say otherwise is to defy all logic and all sense of proper grammar.

Whose feet did Jesus say that He would make "those who are of the synagogue of Satan" fall down before? Those in the church of Philadelphia at that time. Who kept His "command to endure patiently"? Those in the church in Philadelphia. Therefore, the ones who He said He would keep "from the hour of trial" are those who were in the church in Philadelphia. Poster sovereigngrace has already described to you what the hour of trial was that they had to endure, but you stubbornly refuse to accept that which causes you to deny the obvious, which is that Jesus was specifically addressing that 1st century church in Philadelphia in verses 7-10.

Spiritual Jew · Dec 11, 2020

Douggg said:
Then present an undated timeline chart with the end time events on it in the correct order.

I don't need to present a chart and I've already told you I will never do so. I've already explained to you what I believe will happen when. I'm sorry that you are unable to communicate with words and can only communicate with charts. That's not my problem.

Spiritual Jew · Dec 11, 2020

robycop3 said:
For one, there are still Christians in modern Alashevir, which was ancient Philadelphia. They're an island of Christians in a sea of Moslems. And the old Christians are in paradise now; they're certainly kept from the coming trial. But you must remember that trial has NOT yet come. It'll be the great trib.

Are you suggesting that you think Jesus was addressing Christians in modern Alashevir in Revelation 3:10?

sovereigngrace · Dec 11, 2020

Spiritual Jew said:
I'm not going to waste any more time arguing with you about the timing of it. The fact that Jesus was specifically addressing the 1st century church in Philadelphia there is undeniable. But, even if what He said was still to occur in the future, it would have nothing to do with anyone being taken off of the earth. If that's what Jesus wanted for His followers at any time in history then He would not have prayed this:

John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil...20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

Well, that's very selective of you to think that is the only verse where He was speaking to those in the church at Philadelphia. Let's see if that can hold up to scrutiny.

Revelation 3:7 “To the angel of the church in Philadelphia write: These are the words of him who is holy and true, who holds the key of David. What he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open. 8 I know your deeds. See, I have placed before you an open door that no one can shut. I know that you have little strength, yet you have kept my word and have not denied my name. 9 I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews though they are not, but are liars—I will make them come and fall down at your feet and acknowledge that I have loved you. 10 Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth.

Nope, your claim that He was only talking to them in verse 8 fails to hold up to scrutiny. Every occurrence of the words "your" and "you" are referring to the same people in these verses. To say otherwise is to defy all logic and all sense of proper grammar.

Whose feet did Jesus say that He would make "those who are of the synagogue of Satan" fall down before? Those in the church of Philadelphia at that time. Who kept His "command to endure patiently"? Those in the church in Philadelphia. Therefore, the ones who He said He would keep "from the hour of trial" are those who were in the church in Philadelphia. Poster sovereigngrace has already described to you what the hour of trial was that they had to endure, but you stubbornly refuse to accept that which causes you to deny the obvious, which is that Jesus was specifically addressing that 1st century church in Philadelphia in verses 7-10.

Exactly. There is no rapture taught or insinuated in Rev 3:10. Pretribbers force it into the text. He will not even address the biblical evidence and meaning of the Greek words that forbid his interpretation.

Spiritual Jew · Dec 11, 2020

robycop3 said:
then how come amils deliberately ignore the Scriptures that plainly prophesy a millenium-long reign of Jesus upon this earth before God makes everything new, specifically Rev. 20:4-7 ?

John said he saw souls and that they reign with Christ. There's no mention in Revelation 20 of Him reigning on the earth.

Do you believe in the “caught up together” event in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17?

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