Who is "National Israel"?

Who is "National Israel"? I've seen this term used in these boards as though "National Israel" refers to the genetic descendants of Abraham only, ie "the Jews" only.

Deuteronomy 14:2 says,

"For you are a holy people to the LORD your God, and the LORD has chosen you to be a peculiar people to Himself, above all the nations that are on the earth."

It was talking to all 12 tribes of Israel. It was spoken long after Jacob (Israel) when on his death-bed, told his son Joseph the following regarding Joseph's son, Ephraim:

"And Joseph's father, Jacob, refused and said, I know, my son, I know. Manasseh also shall become a people, and he also shall be great, but truly his younger brother Ephraim shall be greater than he is, and his seed shall become (Hebrew: melo goy: "the fullness of the Gentiles", translated correctly into English as "a multitude of nations.") (Gen 48:19).

Deuteronomy 14:2 was spoken long before Israel was split into a Northern kingdom (the house of Israel) consisting of 10 tribes, and a Southern kingdom (the house of Judah) consisting of Judah (the Jews) and Benjamin. It was long before God, through the prophets, began collectively calling the 10 tribes of the Northern kingdom "Ephraim".

Deuteronomy 14:2 was spoken long before God told Hosea to prophesy regarding the house of Israel,

"For you are not My people, and I will not be your God. Yet the number of the sons of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered. And it shall be, in the place where it was said to them, You are not My people, there it shall be said to them, You are the sons of the living God.
Then the sons of Judah and the sons of Israel shall be gathered together, and shall set over themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land. For great shall be the day of Jezreel." (Hosea 1:9-11).

Deuteronomy 14:2 was spoken long before the 10 Northern tribes were exiled from their land and scattered among the nations, long before the descendants of the 10 Northern tribes intermarried with Gentiles in the nations to which they were scattered, to the point where the original 10 tribes are untraceable today.

Deuteronomy 14:2 was spoken long before Jeremiah prophesied that God would cut a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah that would not be like the covenant He cut with them during the days of Moses (Jeremiah 31:31).

Deuteronomy 14:2 was spoken long before the apostle Paul took the above prophecy mentioned in Hosea, which refers to the house of Israel and not to the Jews, and applied it to Gentiles who believe in Jesus":

"What if God, willing to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much long-suffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction; and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy which He had before prepared to glory; whom He also called, not only us, of Jews, but also of the Gentiles?
As He also says in Hosea, "I will call those not My people, My people; and those not beloved, Beloved." And it shall be, in the place where it was said to them. "You are not My people"; there they shall be called sons of the living God." (Romans 9:22-26).

Deuteronomy 14:2 was spoken to the 12 tribes of Israel long before the time which we read of in the gospels, when the chief priests and pharisees heard Jesus' parable of the wicked vinedressers (at the time the Lord told them that the kingdom would be taken from them), when the chief priests and the pharisees, hearing the Lord's parable, "understood that Jesus spoke of them" (Matthew 21:45).


We must remember that the chief priests and pharisees were the vinedressers in the parable (Matthew 21:33-45). The Lord could not have been speaking of all the Jews - because not only were the apostles all Jews, but the apostle who was given the keys to the kingdom of heaven, was a Jew (Peter). (Matthew 16:19).

Matthew 21:33-45 makes it abundantly clear that Jesus was addressing the chief priests and pharisees when he said the kingdom would be taken from them, and the chief priests and pharisees understood by the parable of the wicked vinedressers that Jesus spoke of them.

Sometimes I wish that every Christian would repeat to himself (or herself) over and over, "The kingdom was taken from the chief priests and pharisees, who were the vinedressers, the keepers of the flock, who were Jews, and the keys of the kingdom of heaven were given to Peter, who was a Jew. Indeed, all the apostles were Jews, and are part of the very foundation of the New Testament Temple, which is the Church".

All the Jews or genetic descendants of Abraham who rejected Christ, and all genetic descendants who continue to reject Him, are broken off from Israel (the olive tree), just as Paul says in Romans 9:6-7, "For not all those (who are born of) Israel are Israel; nor because they are the (genetic) seed of Abraham are they all children.", but there is a distinction between the people who are the nation called Israel, and their leaders: Today we only have one King, and one High Priest, and we are all priests of God.

So there has always been only one nation called Israel, the Gentiles who beieve in Jesus are part of it, and God considers them "the house of Israel", whereas the Jews who believe in Jesus are "the house of Judah".

This is true regardless of the fact that Paul uses the words "Israel" and "Jew" interchangeably, because later in Romans 9 he also says,

"What if God, willing to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much long-suffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction; and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy which He had before prepared to glory; whom He also called, not only us, of Jews, but also of the Gentiles? As He also says in Hosea, "I will call those not My people, My people; and those not beloved, Beloved." And it shall be, in the place where it was said to them. "You are not My people"; there they shall be called sons of the living God." (Romans 9:22-26).

The prophecy in Hosea refers to the house of Israel, NOT to the Jews.

THERE HAS THEREFORE ALWAYS BEEN ONLY ONE NATION BUT THERE IS A NEW TEMPLE, WHICH IS ALSO THE CHURCH

There is therefore no new nation, there is no such thing as "National Israel + "The Gentiles". It's the same nation that's existed since Jacob (Israel) was blessed by God with twelve sons- but there is a new temple, and the individual members of the nation are the living stones that it is comprised of - therefore there is no distinction between the members of the nation and the temple anymore, and since the New Testament Temple = The Church, The Church therefore = Israel, and there is no such thing as "Replacement Theology".

The fact that the Church = the New Testament Temple does not mean the kingdom was taken from "the Jews" and given to "the Gentiles", because Peter, who was a Jew, received the keys to the kingdom of heaven, and he was also an apostle, and he is part of the foundation of the New Testament Temple, which is comprised of the house of Israel and the house of Judah (which consists only of those who are part of Christ's flock). The kingdom was taken only from the chief priests and pharisees, who were the wicked vinedressers in the Lord's parable, and any Jew or Gentile who believes in Christ is part of His flock, members and citizens of His people, Israel, and is in His Kingdom - which is still comprised of "the house of Israel" and "the house of Judah", but are one nation in Christ.

These are the saints, and no Jew or Gentile who rejects Christ and who is not part of His flock, is part of Israel.

Deuteronomy 14:2 is speaking to all 12 tribes of Israel long before any of the above events of history took place - but it is still speaking to all Israel, except that today we have a new covenant which is unlike that covenant which God made with US in the days of Moses (Jeremiah 31:31-33). Yes, the New Covenant is cut with US, because we Gentiles are the house of Israel in God's eyes, and therefore it is OUR history written in Deuteronomy equally as much as it is the history of "the Jews"/the house of Judah.

BABerean2 said:

Because James addressed his letter to all of the twelve tribes who were his "brethren" in the "faith" in James 1:1-3, there seems to now be no distinction based on genealogy.

Paul confirms this fact in Titus 3:9.

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There were Jews back in the days of the apostles who lived in the diaspora (in Roman territories) and there were also people living in Roman territories who traced their ancestry back to the 10 tribes of the house of Israel, and the only way we can determine whether James addressed his letter to Gentiles or to genetic Israel is to either assume that he was talking to the Gentiles, or to assume he was talking to genetic Israel living in the diaspora. You've obviously made your choice and the only reason I'm not disagreeing with it is because I have not made mine since unlike you, I've made no assumptions.

BABerean2 said:

The most important genealogy in the Bible is found in Matthew 1:1, as confirmed by Paul in Galatians 3:16.

Most of the people now alive on the planet are direct descendants of Abraham, and many are also direct descendants of Judah.

Therefore, it is very difficult to now determine who is really a "Gentile".
Most of us are of mixed heritage, just like the Samaritans.
(2) Irish People Take A DNA Test - YouTube

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Agreed, and thanks for the link.

DavidPT said:

The following was asked of Jesus 2000 years ago right before He ascended back into heaven.

Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

What Israel does one think is being meant here? It has to be an Israel that needs the kingdom again restored to it, obviously. What Israel does that fit, since this infers that this Israel once had this kingdom restored to them in the past, but in the present, meaning when they asked Jesus this, this same Israel was in need of having the kingdom restored to them yet again, which means at the time of them asking Jesus this, this Israel meant, was in between a time having had the kingdom restored to them in the past and having it restored to them again in the future.

If we make Israel the NT church here, the following is what this verse would be saying. When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to the NT church? Which then infers that the NT church once had this kingdom restored to them in the past, but in the present, meaning when they asked Jesus this, the NT church was in need of having the kingdom restored to them yet again.

Maybe others see that making sense of the text, I don't, though.

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There are two aspects to my reply to your objection brother Christian DavidPT, and they are long, but necessary to read properly, to get things into perspective:

1. The N.T church only existed following the Day of Pentecost, and the disciples were showing by their question that they had misunderstood - because around 41 or 42 days earlier Jesus had told them exactly what He repeated to them again in His reply:

"And this gospel of the kingdom shall be proclaimed in all the world as a witness to all nations. And then the end shall come." Mat 24:14

"But you shall receive power, the Holy Spirit coming upon you. And you shall be witnesses to Me both in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and in Samaria, and to the end of the earth." Acts 1:8

Even after His resurrection, Jesus had said to them,

"Therefore go and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit," Matthew 28:19

So the apostle's question to Jesus immediately before He ascended was showing both their "ignorance" (misunderstanding of the prophetic scriptures) and their forgetfulness - but it was before the Holy Spirit came upon them on the Day of Pentecost, hence before the Church was even born.

The kingdom is in Christ, and without wanting to open a can of worms, how many times do you think the Old Testament prophets prophesied a restoration for Israel (both the house of Israel and the house of Judah) to the land of their fathers, and blessing in the land, which the apostles understood to be referring to a (literal) Messianic Kingdom?

Not once. Not twice. Not three times. Many, many times. Over and over in the prophecies of the Old Testament you read of a promise that after having been driven from the land and scattered among the nations, Israel (all Israel - both the house of Israel and the house of Judah) would be restored to the land of their fathers, be reunited into one people and one nation again with one King over them, and experience a prolonged period of peace, safety and prosperity.

As you know, the Orthodox Jews today still wait for this Messianic kingdom (even though they wait for the coming of Messiah and reject Christ). Again, as you know, the Pre-mil Christians await this Messianic Kingdom also. The apostles were expecting it, and the Messiah had come.

Can you imagine the shock of the apostles (and all the Jewish disciples): They knew the prophecy in Zechariah 14 which said that Messiah would set his feet on the Mount of Olives and go out and fight against the nations coming against Jerusalem, and they knew the prophecies regarding the exaltation of Mount Zion among the nations (the Temple Mount).

Can you imagine their shock when Jesus, standing on the Mount of Olives hours before His arrest and crucifixion, told them the temple would be destroyed? Can you imagine their shock when the Messiah told them He was going to be killed and rise again the third day?

If you can imagine the understanding of the prophecies which the Jews had regarding the Messiah and what He was going to accomplish (and that the Orthodox Jews of today still have), then you will start to understand why the apostles asked Jesus such a question when standing ONCE AGAIN on the Mount of Olives with Him (this time AFTER His resurrection), they asked Him if He was going to fulfill the prophecies of the prophets at that time. He had been killed, as He had said. He had risen again from the dead, as He had said. Now He was standing with them again on the Mount of Olives (and it was around 40 years BEFORE the temple was destroyed - the temple was still standing when Jesus ascended).

So when the apostles asked Him this question, all Jesus did was to remind them of what He had already told them: The gospel of the Kingdom was first going to be preached in all the world as a witness to all nations, and it was to begin with the apostles.

2. IF there is a literal thousand years (which I personally believe there will be), and if there is to be a literal Messianic Kingdom (because until now the Kingdom of Messiah is a spiritual Kingdom which is not of this world, though it has existed in the world for nearly 2,000 years), then can you imagine the shock of all the Jewish believers in Jesus and the shock of all the Gentile believers in Jesus when they all realize that the prophecies regarding the house of Israel and the house of Judah being gathered back into the land of their fathers ....

... etc etc etc...

includes the Gentiles who believe in Jesus, because they are considered the house of Israel by God and their forefathers were exiled from the Northern Kingdom and scattered among the nations and they were promised a return to their land?

Well, some Gentile Pre-Mil Christians who post here are aware of this (I'm not the only one, thank goodness), although some might believe that the house of Israel = the Anglo-Saxon nations only (which I don't).

Many Christians are confused - not only because the Jews who do not believe in Jesus call themselves "Israel" (instead of Judah), and that country which was created in 1948 they call "Israel" - yet the people who live there are Jews, and the only portion of the promised land which was allotted to them is Judah (the Southern kingdom). Yet the Jews do not consider themselves Ephraim or the house of Israel, they know they are the house of Judah, and most of Judah (which the Romans called Judea) lies inside the West Bank, and most of "Israel" created in 1948 is the territory of the 10 Northern tribes: Ephraim/the house of Israel, the Northern kingdom.

So let all Pre-mill Christian Zionists put that in their pipe and smoke it. I'm Pre-mil, but I'm not a Christian Zionist.

SO back to "square one": Are the promises and the prophecies regarding the restoration of both Israel and Judah all fulfilled in a spiritual sense (ie all those prophecies can be interpreted using allegory and none of them are literal), OR ..

Where on earth in erets Yisrael are all these people going to fit when the house of Israel and the house of Judah are all restored to the land of their fathers where they are reunited into one nation again (and will never be two nations at all anymore), and where they will experience a prolonged period of peace, safety & prosperity during the Messianic kingdom?

I don't know the answer to that, either - but if the apostles showed by their question, just before Jesus ascended from the Mount of Olives, that they failed to understand and were forgetful, then no one can blame any one of us - even though some here think they know it all.

DavidPT said:

What Israel does one think is being meant here? It has to be an Israel that needs the kingdom again restored to it, obviously.

What Israel does that fit, since this infers that this Israel once had this kingdom restored to them in the past, but in the present, meaning when they asked Jesus this, this same Israel was in need of having the kingdom restored to them yet again, which means at the time of them asking Jesus this, this Israel meant, was in between a time having had the kingdom restored to them in the past and having it restored to them again in the future.

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I answered already but I never answered this part. When the disciples asked Jesus this, the Jews were still in the land of the Jews, but though they were granted a limited amount of self-governing authority, yet they were occupied and oppressed by the Romans. The kingdom of Israel was not entirely in Israel's (the Jews') hands, because it was part of the kingdom of the Romans. They were exiled around 40 years later in 70 AD.

The house of Israel was exiled long before the Jews were exiled to Babylon, and the house of Israel never returned. The house of Judah was later exiled to Babylon, and 70 years later they returned. Then they were exiled again in AD70. In 1948 the U.N created a state called Israel and the Jews went and settled in the Northern Kingdom which had never belonged to them because the U.N left most of Judah/Judea outside of the borders of "Israel".

BABerean2 said:

When James said the twelve tribes, I take it to include both the descendants of the Northern tribes taken into captivity hundreds of years before which had been mixed with the Gentiles, and also those from the tribe of Judah who still considered themselves Jews.

This agrees with what Paul said in Galatians 3:16-29.
It matters not whether those who belong to Christ are Gentiles or Jews.
Both inherit the promise made to Abraham, through Christ.

The New Covenant was promised to both the House of Israel, and the House of Judah.
They were put back together into one stick through His blood at Calvary.

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Yes. But they have never been returned to the land, as the prophets promised. Amils believe this is because the land = the heavenly promised land, the NHNE.

It's plausible because there isn't going to be enough room this side of the NHNE, but it's also not plausible because the prophecies are too specific and repeated over and over again, and there has never been this promised regathering into the land of their fathers where abundant blessing is experienced until Gog/Magog decides he's going to come against them and plunder to take a spoil.

Allegorizing and spiritualizing it all is as ridiculous in many ways as believing everyone's going to fit into one country stretching from the Mediterranean to the Euphrates.

Douggg said:

National Israel is a made up term by covenant and new covenant theology movements who were faced with a dilemma in their doctrine when Israel became a nation again in 1948, which their predecessors denied was going to happen again, and came up with persons who became Christians "spiritual" Jews and the church - Israel of God.

So theirs is a skewed view of eschatology coming from covenant and new covenant theology. Such that they cannot even accept the Ezekiel 39 infallible timeline framework for end time events.

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Thanks for your input but I think you are ascribing reasons for people's different understandings which are spurious and probably coming from a position of your having been insulted or spoken to with condescension too many times.

PS: I don't accept your inclusion of Ezekiel 39 into the end of this Age. Where are the people living in unwalled villages in abundance of peace, safety & prosperity where the desert has been blooming and the world has been at peace for a prolonged period of time? Those are the things which accompany Gog/Magog's reasons for attacking the people in the land. Your interpretation of prophecy has forced you to ignore this fact or dance around it with ad-hoc theories.

Douggg said:

That's not the controlling driving factor. The controlling driving factor is Jesus Himself speaking in the text in Ezekiel 39:21-29 having returned to this earth, and having executed judgment on the heathen in Ezekiel 39:17-18, the Armageddon event.

Which the preconditions in Ezekiel 38 for the Gog/Magog have to be interpreted and understood accordingly.

The Jews came out of the nations in 1948 back to the land of Israel. In recent years, the Jews have not been in any big wars.

So they are living in peace right now.

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Well, they are not living in unwalled villages (there are walls all over the place keeping the Palestinian Arabs out and from attacking them), there have been multiple terrorist attacks since 1948, the house of Israel is not there (only the house of Judah), and there has been no reunification of the two nations into one nation under Christ in the land. They do not have one King over them. Most of the Jews who are there currently and have been there since 1948 do not even believe in their King.

So Ezekiel chapters 38-39 have to be interpreted and understood accordingly. In other words: Only fulfilled once all the preconditions are met, which till now have never been met.

Timtofly said:

National Israel will be one nation resurrected among many in Revelation 20. Revelation 20 is the only definitive fulfillment of all OT restored peace on earth in the NT. Revelation 20 is not about the church and Paradise. It is about the prince of Peace bringing peace on earth through a resurrection of Adam's flesh and blood. The millennium is the restoration of many nations in incorruptible bodies, under the iron rod of Jesus Christ. Not changed bodies of living, because all sinfull flesh has to die. After the death of the sheep and wheat comes a resurrection body. It will be a new age after this sinful church age. Just like the Flood brought about a new earth to just 4 families, Noah, and 3 sons. This time all will die and some will be physically resurrected to start one more time in current reality for 1000 years. This will be a new heaven because the 6th Seal will destroy the current heaven meaning the sky we think we know, but do not. Also there will be a baptism of fire so the earth will be new, but there is still 1000 years before this reality ends and the NHNE begin. Nothing will be the same except the lake of fire.

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I'm not sure I'm following what you are saying.

Timtofly said:

Revelation 20 is about the prince of Peace bringing peace on earth through a resurrection of Adam's flesh and blood.

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Timtofly said:

The millennium is the restoration of many nations in incorruptible bodies, under the iron rod of Jesus Christ.

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The first part of what you say contradicts the second part, and it contradicts 1 Corinthians 15:50 "And I say this, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does corruption inherit incorruption."(unless I'm misunderstanding you).

Otherwise (I think) I agree regarding the millennium.

BABerean2 said:

The author of the Book of Hebrews believed the fulfillment of the land promise is found in Hebrews 11:15-16.

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Which begins when the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of our LORD and of His Christ. Jesus told Pilate that His kingdom is not of this world of this present time. After the kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our LORD and of HIs Christ and Jesus has reigned over the nations in the same literal sense suggested in the scriptures, Jesus will hand the kingdom back to God the Father, and there will be a NHNE and God will be all in all.

BABerean2 said:

Which is found in Revelation 11:15-18.


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And has not happened yet.