Women Pastors?

lismore · Dec 9, 2020

Gregorikos said:
That is simply the logical outcome of your theology. You place restrictions on what a woman can do for the Lord. She can reach a certain height, but no higher. You place no restrictions on men, only on women.

Hello Gregorikos. I believe there are restrictions placed on men and what they can do, indeed there are heavy restrictions placed on everyone in leadership. There should be accountability to protect the flock from wolves in sheep's clothing that the Lord warned us of (Matthew 7:15). The bible also says that not many should teach because those who teach will be judged more harshly. An emphasis on guarding the flock and on an orderliness.

Not meaning to sound critical but there do seem to be very many false prophets and false teachers about these days, for example among Charismatics and Pentecostals, part of it I believe is the lack of accountability.

God Bless

Silly Uncle Wayne · Dec 9, 2020

Albion said:
They aren't pastors. They are supervisors, the heads of convents, etc.

But they are not in the role of ordained clergy. I thought we all understood that, when the question is about women as pastors, we are asking about them being called as ministers, priests, presbyters, elders, or the like, not just appointed as the administrators of some organization within the church.

I'm not sure I agree, though I haven't followed the whole thread through. The OP was about pastors. This might not be the same as 'ordained clergy' which isn't a Biblical term.

What a mother superior does is pastoral, they don't teach or have authority over a man though.

lismore · Dec 9, 2020

Silly Uncle Wayne said:
What a mother superior does is pastoral, they don't teach or have authority over a man though.

Not meaning to cause offence to anyone but are 'nuns' biblical anyway? God Bless

Hmm · Dec 9, 2020

lismore said:
Not meaning to cause offence to anyone but are 'nuns' biblical anyway? God Bless

Assuming they aren't, why does that matter? As with women priests, if nuns feel a calling from God to live a life of poverty and prayer and all the other things they do is there any reason to think that this calling was not from God? How can someone examine someone else's experience of God? And doesn't the fact that the experience of being called to be a priest or a nun is shared by a large number of women over a long period of time give it more credence than a few pieces of disputed scripture?

Albion · Dec 9, 2020

Silly Uncle Wayne said:
I'm not sure I agree, though I haven't followed the whole thread through. The OP was about pastors. This might not be the same as 'ordained clergy' which isn't a Biblical term.

What a mother superior does is pastoral, they don't teach or have authority over a man though.

You're just using the word to mean a leader of some sort. Most churches which don't ordain women to any of the positions names in Scripture (deacon, presbyter, bishop) gladly appoint them to other leadership positions in the church.

Gregorikos · Dec 9, 2020

lismore said:
Hello Gregorikos. I believe there are restrictions placed on men and what they can do, indeed there are heavy restrictions placed on everyone in leadership. There should be accountability to protect the flock from wolves in sheep's clothing that the Lord warned us of (Matthew 7:15). The bible also says that not many should teach because those who teach will be judged more harshly. An emphasis on guarding the flock and on an orderliness.

Not meaning to sound critical but there do seem to be very many false prophets and false teachers about these days, for example among Charismatics and Pentecostals, part of it I believe is the lack of accountability.

God Bless

Hey Lismore- I am sure you are sincere, but the restrictions you name are restrictions relating to character that would be true of either gender. There isn't a single job in the church that people theoretically believe a man cannot do, including kitchen work and childcare if they are so inclined. Only women have restrictions placed on them by some people relating to jobs they can and cannot hold in church.

lismore · Dec 9, 2020

Hmm said:
Assuming they aren't, why does that matter?

It matters only in the sense that it has gone beyond biblical authority, into another source of authority, the bible being the only source of authority there seems to be fairly general agreement on.

Hmm said:
Assuming they aren't, why does that matter?
As with women priests, if nuns feel a calling from God to live a life of poverty and prayer and all the other things they do is there any reason to think that this calling was not from God? How can someone examine someone else's experience of God?

Indeed. It's subjective. If it works for you then it works. A very weak foundation IMHO.

Hmm said:
Assuming they aren't, why does that matter? And doesn't the fact that the experience of being called to be a priest or a nun is shared by a large number of women over a long period of time give it more credence than a few pieces of disputed scripture?

Absolutely not. You seem to be suggesting that because something is popular in human terms then it must be right?
And 'disputed scripture'. The scriptures are only disputed by those with a pre-existing bias that what the scriptures say on an issue must essentially be wrong.
God Bless

lismore · Dec 9, 2020

Gregorikos said:
Hey Lismore- I am sure you are sincere, but the restrictions you name are restrictions relating to character that would be true of either gender.

True. My point exactly- both genders have restrictions upon their service in the church. It's not an anti-women thing.

The scriptural injunctions regarding leaders shouldn't be seen through the lens of anti-certain groups but rather pro-the whole group. Obey the shepherd, protect the flock.

Gregorikos said:
There isn't a single job in the church that people theoretically believe a man cannot do, including kitchen work and childcare if they are so inclined.

I disagree. There are many. One example of a thing a man cannot do (unless you're Arnold Schwarzenegger) is child bearing.

Gregorikos said:
Only women have restrictions placed on them by some people relating to jobs they can and cannot hold in church.

Nah. Take a look at the requirements for elders and deacons, the vast majority of people would be restricted from serving, in order to keep the flock safe.

God Bless

Gregorikos · Dec 9, 2020

lismore said:
True. My point exactly- both genders have restrictions upon their service in the church. It's not an anti-women thing.

It is an anti-woman thing. You cannot name a single thing that men aren't allowed to do by restriction or rule. Only women have such restrictions.

lismore said:
I disagree. There are many. One example of a thing a man cannot do (unless you're Arnold Schwarzenegger) is child bearing.

You allege "many" yet give child-bearing as your only example? Child bearing is a physical function, not a disqualification due to rules or ordinances. That is categorically excluded from our discussion.

But since there are "many" I'm sure you can name one more.

lismore said:
Nah. Take a look at the requirements for elders and deacons, the vast majority of people would be restricted from serving, in order to keep the flock safe.

God Bless

Absolutely true, and as it should be. But notice that none of those restrictions are based on their gender. Any male that can live an exemplary life and obtains the appropriate level of wisdom and education can attain any office in the church. They are not limited by virtue of their gender.

Jaxxi · Dec 9, 2020

Darren Brown said:
Should women be pastors?
I do not allow a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; instead, she is to remain quiet.
1 timothy 2:12

No women should not be Pastors. Women came from man, and God declared this. Therefore it should be respected and honored.
Who are we to change this when God doesn't want it? God never changes. We can say all day long that the Bible is old and times have changed and women have the right. Well women also have the right to go to hell for disobeying God and hell is not outdated. We need to be very careful with what we take upon ourselves and feel false entitlement to.

Gregorikos · Dec 10, 2020

Jaxxi said:
No women should not be Pastors. Women came from man, and God declared this. Therefore it should be respected and honored.

God did declare that. But he likewise declared that man came from woman. (1 Corinthians 11:12) That shows equality. We should respect that just as much.

Jaxxi said:
Who are we to change this when God doesn't want it?

If God doesn't want it, of course we shouldn't want it either. But it cannot be shown from the Bible that God doesn't want it. There are no clear prohibitions in the Bible against women serving at any level. And there are examples of women serving in these functions, for instance deacon (Romans 16:1-2) apostle (Romans 16:7) teacher (Act 18:26) prophet (Act 21:9, 1 Corinthians 11:5) and house church leaders (Colossians 4:15) So let's turn that around- if God wants women to serve as pastors, who are we to oppose it?

Jaxxi · Dec 10, 2020

Gregorikos said:
God did declare that. But he likewise declared that man came from woman. (1 Corinthians 11:12) That shows equality. We should respect that just as much.

If God doesn't want it, of course we shouldn't want it either. But it cannot be shown from the Bible that God doesn't want it. There are no clear prohibitions in the Bible against women serving at any level. And there are examples of women serving in these functions, for instance deacon (Romans 16:1-2) apostle (Romans 16:7) teacher (Act 18:26) prophet (Act 21:9, 1 Corinthians 11:5) and house church leaders (Colossians 4:15) So let's turn that around- if God wants women to serve as pastors, who are we to oppose it?

1 Corinth 14:34
the women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says.

That does not sound like He wants it to me.

Gregorikos · Dec 10, 2020

Jaxxi said:
1 Corinth 14:34
the women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says.

That does not sound like He wants it to me.

Read that in context and it clears it all up. Paul was not forbidding women to be pastors or preachers.

In this passage, Paul uses the word sigáo (Strong 4601) to tell three different groups of people to "be quiet" in the church.

First is the tongues-speakers:

If any speak in a tongue, let there be only two or at most three, and each in turn, and let someone interpret. But if there is no one to interpret, let each of them **keep silent** in church and speak to himself and to God. 1 Corinthians 14:27-28 (ESV)

Second is the prophets:

Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others weigh what is said. If a revelation is made to another sitting there, let the first **be silent**. 1 Corinthians 14:29-30 (ESV)

Third is the women with questions:

the women should **be silent** in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says. If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 (ESV)

Paul is addressing orderly behavior in the church service. Paul had already said in the same letter that women could prophesy in church (11:5) so he clearly didn't mean that women weren't allowed to contribute to the worship service. But they definitely weren't allowed to disrupt it!

We can imagine the possibilities when we realize that in that culture, women were home schooled, if at all. School was for men. Many of the women didn't even necessarily understand Greek all that well, because Corinth was a multi-cultural seaport. So women were under-educated, stuck at home, and no doubt anxious to talk when they got out.

Cynthia Westfall has an excellent perspective:

I can add my own experiences of homeschooling and teaching in the inner city, which involve problems due to a lack of socialization in a group-learning context, and the problem of an individual’s limited knowledge or the capacity to learn in a group. 93 Homeschooled children and street people can sometimes fail to behave in an orderly manner in a classroom environment or during delivery of a sermon because they either are not trained in or refuse to submit to behavior that is standard for others who have been through a conventional school system.

Westfall, Cynthia Long. Paul and Gender: Reclaiming the Apostle's Vision for Men and Women in Christ (p. 239). Baker Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

zippy2006 · Dec 10, 2020

Paidiske said:
I have always observed this to be the case with those who do not accept women in ministry.

A key question is whether our world of today is biased for or against women pastors. Given what I believe to be the obvious answer to that question, the greater danger of justification is clearly on the side of the innovators. The prevalence of feminism and egalitarianism are so strong in our culture that it strikes me as indisputable that if the Bible were to teach against women pastors, a significant portion of our culture would override that teaching.

nolidad · Dec 10, 2020

Archivist said:
No, you are providing your interpretation.

Well I am interpreting what you said above, and shame on you for even writing that! As you said I am entitled to my interpretation. According to your logic you are trying to display here, words are meaningless and are only defined by the person as they see fit.

Archivist said:
Did I say God condones murder, adultery or blasphemy? No, I did not.

You need to work on your grammar. "Call it me entitles to interpeting you" makes no sense.

Well that is my interpretation of what you wrote. why am I wrong if we are all entitled to our own interpretation.

Archivist said:
I never said you were mad, I said you were shouting. It is very rude. But of course, telling someone that what they said "stinks" is rude too, but you did that. Apparently your mother didn't teach you manners.

Okay then I was digitally shouting to emphasize a point! I don't go searching what people say I am doing online by caps or exclamation marks. I know what I am doing and that is good enough for me. If people thinkg something different, all they have to do is ask.

Archivist said:
A person can be cool, calm and collected and still be rude.

Well to you I my be rude, I am not in control of what you think is rude. Rude to one is direct to another.

Archivist said:
No, parts of the church gained the correct interpretation of scripture in the 1600s. But of course, you are entitled to your interpretation.

So you are a conspiracy theorist in this! The church suppressed the real truth and so didn't Paul!

That is what the gays in the church are saying as well. we have been suppressing the truth for all these years. wonder what is coming down next.

You should get a new line, telling me my dog is green doesn't make sense ( I am interpreting your last five words and will tell others that is what you meant.) I am being sarcastic, and I hope you get my point.

Aner means man- that is not interpretation but reality! to say it means person is an interpretation of common usage of words. Maybe it is language and definitions that you loathe the most?

Archivist · Dec 10, 2020

nolidad said:
Well I am interpreting what you said above, and shame on you for even writing that! As you said I am entitled to my interpretation. According to your logic you are trying to display here, words are meaningless and are only defined by the person as they see fit.

You are entitled to your interpretation regarding female pastors just as I am entitled to mine.

Well that is my interpretation of what you wrote. why am I wrong if we are all entitled to our own interpretation.

Except I never said anything about God condoning murder, adultery or blasphemy, so what you are saying is simply a lie on your part.

Okay then I was digitally shouting to emphasize a point! I don't go searching what people say I am doing online by caps or exclamation marks. I know what I am doing and that is good enough for me. If people thinkg something different, all they have to do is ask. Well to you I my be rude, I am not in control of what you think is rude. Rude to one is direct to another.

No, your just being rude. Your mother didn't teach you manners. Shouting, saying that what someone said "stinks" is just rude.

So you are a conspiracy theorist in this!

No. As I said earlier in this thread, Jesus didn't pick a man to be the first person to preach the Good News of his resurrection, He picked a woman. Scripture tells us that there was a female deacon and a female apostle. I'm looking at what scripture says. You are, of course, entitled to your interpretation.

The church suppressed the real truth and so didn't Paul!

That makes no grammatical sense. I don't have a clue what you mean.

That is what the gays in the church are saying as well. we have been suppressing the truth for all these years. wonder what is coming down next.

That isn't what we are discussing here. Perhaps you would like to start a new thread...

You should get a new line, telling me my dog is green doesn't make sense ( I am interpreting your last five words and will tell others that is what you meant.) I am being sarcastic, and I hope you get my point.

I never said taht your dog is green, so this makes no sense.

Aner means man- that is not interpretation but reality! to say it means person is an interpretation of common usage of words. Maybe it is language and definitions that you loathe the most?

And you are entitled to your interpretation, just as I am entitled to mine.

nolidad · Dec 10, 2020

Gregorikos said:
That is simply the logical outcome of your theology. You place restrictions on what a woman can do for the Lord. She can reach a certain height, but no higher. You place no restrictions on men, only on women.

I place no restrictions on Women. I am merely quoting Gods Word as written.

I do place restriction on men. A man has to prove himself called to be ordained. He must be the aner of one gyne. not one "tis" of one "tis' or one anthropos of one anthropos. If God inspired those words, then I would lean to agree with you and paidske and bekkilyn. But God used very gender specific words,. If they were good enough for God they should be good enough for us.

Gregorikos said:
As I've told you repeatedly, there are perfectly legitimate alternate translations of the scriptures you provided that render your objections moot.

A wife should learn quietly with complete submission. I don’t allow a wife to teach or to control her husband. Instead, she should be a quiet listener. 1 Timothy 2:11-12 (CEB)

This saying is reliable: if anyone has a goal to be a supervisor in the church, they want a good thing. So the church’s supervisor must be without fault. They should be faithful to their spouse, sober, modest, and honest. They should show hospitality and be skilled at teaching. 1 Timothy 3:1-2 (CEB)

In the same way, servants in the church should be dignified, not two-faced, heavy drinkers, or greedy for money. They should hold on to the faith that has been revealed with a clear conscience. They should also be tested and then serve if they are without fault. In the same way, women who are servants in the church should be dignified and not gossip. They should be sober and faithful in everything they do. Servants must be faithful to their spouse and manage their children and their own households well. 1 Timothy 3:8-12 (CEB)

The fact remains: You want to place restrictions on over half of the Lord's army based on your dubious interpretation of one passage of Scripture.

NO, you said there are perfectly logical alternates, but have utterly failed to prove they are valid. Just because a few "experts" say so doesn't make it so. As I repeatedly told you I can bring to bear far more "experts" that say your experts are wrong!

But I prefer to stick to Scripture instead of any alleged alternative interpretation.

But the 1 Tim 2:11-12 CEB translation is a dynamic translation, which is still an interpretive translation.

And while that is a true translation, it even shows the fallacy of your argument.

Where is a women not allowed to teach? If she is a bishop she certainly is doing a lot of teaching!

If she is a bishop is she going to be silent?

The 1 Tim. 3:1-2 is an erroneous translation! they completely ignore aner and gyne! The passage cannot in good grammar and exegesis be translated "they must be faithful to their spouse" And you should know that!

Same with 1 Tim. 3:8-12 the CEB uses a dynamic "egalitarian hermeneutic and do injustice to what is actually written.

Based on your wishing this "egalitarian " reinterpretation, not only should gays be welcome in the church (for there is no male or female) but they should allowed to be pastors and deacons, as long as they are faithful to their spouse! That is teh conclusion of your logic using a reinterpreted alternative tranlsation that is not what was written.

Gregorikos · Dec 10, 2020

nolidad said:
I place no restrictions on Women. I am merely quoting Gods Word as written.

Don't be disingenuous. Your entire thrust in this thread is to argue for the restriction of women from pastoral positions.

nolidad said:
I do place restriction on men. A man has to prove himself called to be ordained. He must be the aner of one gyne. not one "tis" of one "tis' or one anthropos of one anthropos. If God inspired those words, then I would lean to agree with you and paidske and bekkilyn. But God used very gender specific words,. If they were good enough for God they should be good enough for us.

But the only restrictions you place on men are restrictions of character and matters that can be earned. You don't restrict men for simply being men, but you do restrict women for being women.

nolidad said:
NO, you said there are perfectly logical alternates, but have utterly failed to prove they are valid. Just because a few "experts" say so doesn't make it so. As I repeatedly told you I can bring to bear far more "experts" that say your experts are wrong!

I have given you a perfectly legitimate interpretation of that passage that scholars have held for centuries. It is proven to my satisfaction if not to yours. In any case, you cannot deny that an alternate interpretation exists which nullifies your objection. Your cannot, therefore, prove that women can't be pastors, because you may be wrong about your inpterpretation.

nolidad said:
Where is a women not allowed to teach? If she is a bishop she certainly is doing a lot of teaching!

If she is a bishop is she going to be silent?

She is not allowed to teach or control her husband in a domineering manner.

nolidad said:
The 1 Tim. 3:1-2 is an erroneous translation! they completely ignore aner and gyne! The passage cannot in good grammar and exegesis be translated "they must be faithful to their spouse" And you should know that!

Not it isn't, because as we pointed out earlier, μιᾶς γυναικὸς ἄνδρα is an idiom.

Now a bishop must be above reproach, married only once, temperate, sensible, respectable, hospitable, an apt teacher, 1 Timothy 3:2 (NRSV)

A congregation leader must be above reproach, he must be faithful to his wife, temperate, self-controlled, orderly, hospitable and able to teach. (Complete Jewish Bible)

That’s why officials must have a good reputation and be faithful in marriage. They must be self-controlled, sensible, well-behaved, friendly to strangers, and able to teach. (Contemporary English Version)

Now the overseer is to be above reproach, faithful to his wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, (NIV)

So a church leader must be a man whose life is above reproach. He must be faithful to his wife. He must exercise self-control, live wisely, and have a good reputation. He must enjoy having guests in his home, and he must be able to teach. (NLT)

nolidad · Dec 10, 2020

Archivist said:
No, your just being rude. Your mother didn't teach you manners. Shouting, saying that what someone said "stinks" is just rude.

Well that is your interpretation!

Archivist said:
You are entitled to your interpretation regarding female pastors just as I am entitled to mine.

Well I sit comfortably knowing that my "interpretation" is based on the normal, usual, universally accepted usage of the Words god inspired Paul to write concerning this topic. Yours? Meh- not so much.

Archivist said:
I never said taht your dog is green, so this makes no sense.

Well that is my "interpretation" of what you said. I am entitled to my interpretation! You said so!

Archivist said:
That isn't what we are discussing here. Perhaps you would like to start a new thread...

Well it is a logical outcome of your "wisdom". But I will gladly join a thread you start saying why it is okay to be gender neutral for women to be ordained, but not gender neutral on whom can marry whom based on the same passages we are discussing here.

Archivist said:
And you are entitled to your interpretation, just as I am entitled to mine.

Now you are saying you hate cars? What does that have to do with this discussion. After all I am entitled to my "interpretation" of your words. so following your implied rules I can have one word mean something completely different and that is okay!

Philip_B · Dec 10, 2020

nolidad said:
Well that is your interpretation!

Well I sit comfortably knowing that my "interpretation" is based on the normal, usual, universally accepted usage of the Words god inspired Paul to write concerning this topic. Yours? Meh- not so much.

Well that is my "interpretation" of what you said. I am entitled to my interpretation! You said so!

Well it is a logical outcome of your "wisdom". But I will gladly join a thread you start saying why it is okay to be gender neutral for women to be ordained, but not gender neutral on whom can marry whom based on the same passages we are discussing here.

Now you are saying you hate cars? What does that have to do with this discussion. After all I am entitled to my "interpretation" of your words. so following your implied rules I can have one word mean something completely different and that is okay!

whatever

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