Endtimes Eventism, disagreement with

grafted branch said:

When I asked baberean 2 if Galatians 3:26-29 was referring to the remnant of Israel he said “no”. He didn’t say who he thinks the remnant are but if they are not included in Galatians 3:26-29 then he must have some other kind of theology I’m not familiar with.

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I believe the same as he does about this, so I will answer this if you don't mind. The remnant are simply the Israelite Christians during Paul's day.

Romans 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying, 3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. 4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. 5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. 7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

So, Paul indicated that there was a remnant of Israelite believers in his day. He referred to the Israelite believers as "the election" or "the elect" while the rest of the Israelites were blinded to the truth at that time, though the Gentile believers were supposed to provoke them to jealousy so that they too would want to be saved (Romans 11:11).

So, the remnant of Israelite believers were included in what Paul said in Galatians 3:26-29 along with Gentile believers. As Paul said in that passage "there is neither Jew nor Gentile", so it's not about one's nationality. It's about belonging to Christ.

I see several people agreeing and liking the various posts that seem to be pointing to national Israel never having any kind special status with God prior to the cross. I’m certainly not trying to change anyone’s views here but I also can’t seem to understand how they are arriving at their conclusion.

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They didn't have special status in regards to salvation because God is not a respecter of persons in regards to salvation as He wants all people from all nations to be saved.

But, as Paul said in Romans 9:4-5 regarding national Israel: "Theirs is the adoption to sonship; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises. Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of the Messiah, who is God over all, forever praised!". They had the privilege of God making covenants with them and giving them the law and the promises and meeting with them at the temple as well as being the nation from which the Messiah would descend.

But, what was a mystery in Old Testament times that was revealed in New Testament times is that the promises God made to Israel back then would apply not just to Israelite believers but to Gentile believers as well.

Ephesians 3:1 For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for the sake of you Gentiles—Surely you have heard about the administration of God’s grace that was given to me for you, 3 that is, the mystery made known to me by revelation, as I have already written briefly. 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets. 6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.

That is what Galatians 3:26-29 is all about. Israelites/Jews and Gentiles being heirs and "members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus".

grafted branch said:

Thanks for rephrasing your reply, I’m really not sure what others believe here but I do agree with what you posted other than who the saints are in Revelation (specifically Revelation 11 and 13).

When I asked baberean 2 if Galatians 3:26-29 was referring to the remnant of Israel he said “no”. He didn’t say who he thinks the remnant are but if they are not included in Galatians 3:26-29 then he must have some other kind of theology I’m not familiar with.

I see several people agreeing and liking the various posts that seem to be pointing to national Israel never having any kind special status with God prior to the cross. I’m certainly not trying to change anyone’s views here but I also can’t seem to understand how they are arriving at their conclusion.

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I don't know why you use the term "national Israel". "National Israel" has two parts:

Jeremiah 30:3 says,
"For, lo, the days come, says the LORD, that I will bring again the captivity of My people Israel and Judah, says the LORD. And I will cause them to return to the land that I gave their fathers, and they shall possess it."

Both Israel and Judah (ie "National Israel")

Jeremiah 31:1-6 says,

"At that time, says the LORD, I will be the God of all the families of Israel, and they shall be My people.
So says the LORD, The people who were left of the sword found grace in the wilderness; even Israel, when I will go to give him rest.
The LORD has appeared to me from afar, saying, Yea, I have loved you with an everlasting love; therefore with loving-kindness I have drawn you.
Again I will build you, and you shall be built, O virgin of Israel. You shall again put on your tambourines, and shall go forth in the dances of those who rejoice.
You shall yet plant vines on the mountains of Samaria; the planters shall plant, and shall eat them as common things.
For there shall be a day that the watchmen on Mount Ephraim shall cry, Arise and let us go up to Zion to the LORD our God!"

Samaria and Mount Ephraim is referring to the "National Israel" who are the 10 Northern tribes, the house of Israel, not "the Jews".. That is where they (the 10 Northern tribes) lived. Those names are associated with them, not with the Jews, and the New Covenant in Jeremiah 31:31 is made with the house of Israel and the house of Judah. Those 10 Northern tribes had been scattered by the time Jeremiah prophesied, and Paul applies a prophecy in Hosea speaking to 10 Northern tribes, to the Gentiles who believe in Jesus:

"As He also says in Hosea, "I will call those not My people, My people; and those not beloved, Beloved." And it shall be, in the place where it was said to them. "You are not My people; there they shall be called sons of the living God."
Isaiah also cries concerning Israel, "Though the number of the sons of Israel is as the sands of the sea, a remnant shall be saved." Romans 9:25-27.

"The house of Israel", collectively called "Ephraim" in the scriptures, consists of the 10 tribes of the Northern kingdom who were exiled and scattered among the nations, where their descendants intermarried with Gentiles to the point where the original 10 tribes are untraceable today (and though it's a well-known genetic fact that many, many Gentiles have Ashkenazim Jewish genetics in some part of their ancestry without even knowing it, it's highly probable that many, many Gentiles also have the blood of one or more of the 10 tribes in some part of their ancestry without even knowing it, it still makes no difference to God what anyone except Christ's ancestry is, and "national Israel" never really existed as a genetically homogeneous people anyway).

The genetic ancestry of "National Israel" has never been what defines "National Israel" (see also my signature).

This is why I have a problem with the term "National Israel" - because people who use it are normally referring only to "the Jews", but God's covenants and promises are to all the tribes, and the Gentiles who believe in Jesus are part of it.

"National Israel" is all the tribes of Israel (not just the Jews) - the New Covenant in Jeremiah 31:31 promises both 'the house of Israel' (the 10 Northern tribes) and the 'house of Judah' (Judah & Benjamin) that God would cut a new covenant with them. God considers any Gentile, no matter what his genetic ancestry, as part of the house of Israel, because God regards the Gentiles who believe in Jesus as the house of Israel, ie "National Israel".

After the house of Israel (the 10 Northern tribes) was exiled and scattered among the nations, where their descendants intermarried with Gentiles to the point where the original 10 tribes are untraceable today, the Gentiles have become grafted into the Olive Tree among the remnant of the Jewish part of Israel who believed in Jesus, and these same Gentiles are regarded as the house of Israel:

Hosea 1:9-11
"And He said, Call his name Not-my-people. For you are not My people, and I will not be for you.
Yet the number of the sons of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered. And it shall be, in the place where it was said to them, You are not My people, there it shall be said to them, You are the sons of the living God.
Then the sons of Judah and the sons of Israel shall be gathered together, and shall set over themselves one head, and they.." (the sons of Israel) ".. shall come up out of the land. For great shall be the day of Jezreel."

"Because you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For all those of you who were given baptism into Christ did put on Christ. There is no Jew or Greek, servant or free, male or female: because you are all one in Jesus Christ. And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and yours is the heritage by the right of God's undertaking given to Abraham." Galatians 3:26-29

Spiritual Jew said:

Why would you not use scripture to interpret scripture by looking at how it is used here:

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

There is no basis for thinking that this only applies to the remnant of Israel. All saints, Jew and Gentile, are the enemies of the dragon and the beast.

Why do you assume the word "overcome" has to always mean the same thing? Any English speaker knows that most English words have multiple definitions and mean different things depending on the context.

Do you understand that the beast overcoming the saints or the two witnesses has to do with killing them? Do you actually think the beast wins by killing saints considering the fact that when a saint is "faithful unto death" they receive "the victor's crown" of life (Rev 2:10)?

What do you think it means when it talks about the beast overcoming the saints or overcoming the two witnesses?

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Hi, I would offer we must be careful how we hear or say we hear what the Spirit says to the churches (denominations) believers.

The two witness make up the one witness of God the unseen eternal witness and not the witness of men the temporal, what the eyes see. . the things of this corrupted creation.

A distinction between the two must be made .In that way no man could serve two teaching authorities.

1 John 5:9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.

The two witness that make the one witness of God are the law or letter that kills (death) and the prophets as those who have the born again Spirit of Christ .Like John the Baptist coming in the Spirit of Elijah .the Holy Spirit of God that indwells all who believe, as it is written . . . The law of faith (believing God not seen ) .

The gospel will be killed or silenced for a period when God does send a famine for hearing the good news .It will then be given life again to work in those who believe for a short period and then the last day under the Sun will come .

Law and the prophets or Elisa and Moses represent the one perfect witness of God.

Those who did seek after the witness of men (what the eyes see, flesh and blood tried to make sola scriptura God's witness without effect.

Calling the word of God heresy (opinion) and not the witness of men as oral traditions called a law of the fathers. .

Acts 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

Peter looked at the parable below as if it was the "witness of man" .the gospel meaning God's witness hid in that parable .

Matthew 17:3And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.

grafted branch said:

I thought about this and would like your opinion, why does the beast only have his power for 42 months if Luke 17:33 is to be used to help interpret Revelation 13:5-7?

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I haven't seen David answer but I understand what he means. Revelation 13 tells us that whoever refuses to worship the beast & his image or receive his mark or the number of his name will be killed. Jesus told us that whoever will attempt to save his life will lose it and whoever loses his life will save it.

It makes total sense.

garee said:

Hi, I would offer we must be careful how we hear or say we hear what the Spirit says to the churches (denominations) believers.

The two witness make up the one witness of God the unseen eternal witness and not the witness of men the temporal, what the eyes see. . the things of this corrupted creation.

A distinction between the two must be made .In that way no man could serve two teaching authorities.

1 John 5:9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.

The two witness that make the one witness of God are the law or letter that kills (death) and the prophets as those who have the born again Spirit of Christ .Like John the Baptist coming in the Spirit of Elijah .the Holy Spirit of God that indwells all who believe, as it is written . . . The law of faith (believing God not seen ) .

The gospel will be killed or silenced for a period when God does send a famine for hearing the good news .It will then be given life again to work in those who believe for a short period and then the last day under the Sun will come .

Law and the prophets or Elisa and Moses represent the one perfect witness of God.

Those who did seek after the witness of men (what the eyes see, flesh and blood tried to make sola scriptura God's witness without effect.

Calling the word of God heresy (opinion) and not the witness of men as oral traditions called a law of the fathers. .

Acts 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

Peter looked at the parable below as if it was the "witness of man" .the gospel meaning God's witness hid in that parable .

Matthew 17:3And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.

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I think we all have to be careful about private interpretation. The above seems to me full of allegory, yet the scripture says:

"And when they complete their testimony, the beast coming up out of the abyss will make war against them and will overcome them and kill them.
And their bodies will lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
And many of the peoples and tribes and tongues and nations will see their dead bodies three days and a half, and they will not allow their dead bodies to be put in tombs.
And the ones who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them, and will make merry, and will send one another gifts, because these two prophets tormented those living on the earth.
And after three days and a half, a spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood on their feet. And great fear fell on those seeing them.
And they heard a great voice from Heaven saying to them, Come up here. And they went up to Heaven in a cloud, and their enemies watched them."

Moses and Aaron were God's witnesses to Pharaoh. They turned the waters of Egypt to blood. The Revelation says the same regarding the two witnesses, that they will be given power to do miracles and turn waters to blood. These two witnesses tormented those who hate them. Can we use allegory for Moses and Aaron too, and say that their bodies were not literal bodies and Moses and Aaron were not literal people? If not, then what exactly gives us the liberty to use allegory for the two witnesses?

Douggg said:

One thousand years, like the years you are experiencing now.

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Ok so one day

@Spiritual Jew and @Fullness of the Gentiles

Let’s back up the truck here for a minute.

In my post #15 I said this …

grafted branch said:

What I mean is based on verses such as Deuteronomy 14:2, the saints can be considered as national Israel. In John 8:44 the Jews are told they are of their father the devil and they went on to killed their Messiah. Matthew 21:43 the kingdom of God shall be taken from you and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

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To which baberean2 replied in post #18 …

BABerean2 said:

You are ignoring the word "remnant" in Romans 9:27, and you are also ignoring Paul's warning about genealogies in Titus 3:9.

Who was James talking to in James 1:1-3 when he addressed his letter to "the twelve tribes" who were his "brethren" in the "faith".

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Spiritual Jew agreed and JGR gave this post a winner.

No one questioned my associating Deuteronomy 14:2 to national Israel being consider the saints. This verse states that they are chosen to be above all the nations. It would have been very helpful to me if someone could have pointed out that they disagree with this verse referring to national Israel.

Also it would have been very helpful if it was pointed out to me earlier by those who don’t think that Matthew 21:43 is referring to Israel as a nation when it says “the kingdom of God shall be taken from you and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof”.

Also as I pointed out in post#20 Daniel 7:27 has the statement “the people of the saints of the most High” where I said the “people” are the remnant of believers and the “saints” are national Israel; again no response to this specific point I made.

So now moving forward I don’t have any problems with either of your posts #61 or #62.

Spiritual Jew said:

7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

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Whichever Israel you think this verse is referring to, that has not been able to obtain that which it seeked for, is the Israel that I’m referring to as national Israel. I hope this is clear. I see this Israel as the saints being referred to in Revelation 11 and 13, I think these events happened prior to the cross.

So I’m simply going to disagree with your interpretations on who the saints are and how they are overcome. I think we have too many basic theological differences to make any headway here.

grafted branch said:

Whichever Israel you think this verse is referring to, that has not been able to obtain that which it seeked for, is the Israel that I’m referring to as national Israel. I hope this is clear. I see this Israel as the saints being referred to in Revelation 11 and 13, I think these events happened prior to the cross.

So I’m simply going to disagree with your interpretations on who the saints are and how they are overcome. I think we have too many basic theological differences to make any headway here.

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There are two different groups of Israelites in Romans 11:1-5.
Many today do not understand the difference between the Baal worshipers and the faithful remnant.


Pastor Chuck Baldwin reveals the difference in the message below.
(1) A Counterfeit Temple; A Counterfeit Israel - Bible Study by Chuck Baldwin on Feb. 1, 2017 - YouTube


.

grafted branch said:

No one questioned my associating Deuteronomy 14:2 to national Israel being consider the saints. This verse states that they are chosen to be above all the nations. It would have been very helpful to me if someone could have pointed out that they disagree with this verse referring to national Israel.

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Friend, there is this thing called the New Testament. The book of Revelation is a New Testament book. Please use the rest of the New Testament to aid your understanding of that New Testament book. I showed you how the New Testament defined who the saints are. It's clearly all who believe in Christ regardless of nationality.

Also it would have been very helpful if it was pointed out to me earlier by those who don’t think that Matthew 21:43 is referring to Israel as a nation when it says “the kingdom of God shall be taken from you and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof”.

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It's not talking about taking it away from the entire nation. It was just taken away from unbelievers like the Pharisees and other religious leaders in Israel. It was not taken away from the remnant of believers like Christ's apostles and Paul and other Israelite believers.

Romans 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

Whichever Israel you think this verse is referring to, that has not been able to obtain that which it seeked for, is the Israel that I’m referring to as national Israel. I hope this is clear.

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That's clear to everyone, but, that's only referring to the unbelievers who were blinded that didn't attain it. There was a remnant, which Paul called "the elect" or "the election" who did obtain it because they had faith in Christ. It's this remnant of believers that you seem to keep overlooking.

I see this Israel as the saints being referred to in Revelation 11 and 13, I think these events happened prior to the cross.

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The nation of Israel of that time included mostly unbelievers and a remnant of believers. How can you refer to unbelievers as saints? That's impossible and unbiblical. Where do you see any indication within Revelation 11 and 13 that it's only talking about the past before Christ died on the cross?

Are you a full preterist? Which part of Revelation do you believe covers the time after the cross and which part do you think either has an ongoing fulfillment of future fulfillment?

So I’m simply going to disagree with your interpretations on who the saints are and how they are overcome. I think we have too many basic theological differences to make any headway here.

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It's your choice of what to believe, but I think you're not digging nearly deep enough here. You need to do a lot more study on all of this, in my opinion.

grafted branch said:

@Spiritual Jew and @Fullness of the Gentiles

Let’s back up the truck here for a minute.

In my post #15 I said this …



To which baberean2 replied in post #18 …




Spiritual Jew agreed and JGR gave this post a winner.

No one questioned my associating Deuteronomy 14:2 to national Israel being consider the saints. This verse states that they are chosen to be above all the nations. It would have been very helpful to me if someone could have pointed out that they disagree with this verse referring to national Israel.

Also it would have been very helpful if it was pointed out to me earlier by those who don’t think that Matthew 21:43 is referring to Israel as a nation when it says “the kingdom of God shall be taken from you and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof”.

Also as I pointed out in post#20 Daniel 7:27 has the statement “the people of the saints of the most High” where I said the “people” are the remnant of believers and the “saints” are national Israel; again no response to this specific point I made.

So now moving forward I don’t have any problems with either of your posts #61 or #62.



Whichever Israel you think this verse is referring to, that has not been able to obtain that which it seeked for, is the Israel that I’m referring to as national Israel. I hope this is clear. I see this Israel as the saints being referred to in Revelation 11 and 13, I think these events happened prior to the cross.

So I’m simply going to disagree with your interpretations on who the saints are and how they are overcome. I think we have too many basic theological differences to make any headway here.

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Paul leaves no doubt about the identity of God's Israel.

It is not the nation.

It is the faithful believing elect remnant within the nation.

Two Israels.

Romans 9
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

1. Of Israel:
Not all Israel
The children of the flesh
Not the children of God
Not the children of the promise
Not counted for the seed

2. All Israel:
Not of Israel
Not the children of the flesh
The children of God
The children of the promise
Counted for the seed

Only one of these Israels shall be saved.

Romans 11
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Only the faithful obedient "all Israel", comprised of the believing remnant of Israel (Romans 9:27, 11:1-5), and believers from among the Gentiles (Romans 11:11), shall be saved.

Fullness of the Gentiles said:

Though I don't agree with everything I've seen you say in other posts I agree with everything you say in the above post.

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Thats OKay! Iron sharpens Iron. I believe I am 100% right in all the things I believe in. But that doesn't mean I am 100% right. I am always willing to change my mind if one brings a better biblical argument than what I have learned over 46 years. I have changed my moind in many doctrines over the years as I grew in teh word and the knowledge of the ancient languages and how they used it.

BABerean2 said:

All of the things in that post except the last two lines came from me, instead of from Pastor Hawkins.

My pastor, and Pastor Hawkins have come to the same conclusion as me.
John did not see one vision which is recorded in the Book of Revelation.
Instead, John saw several visions which are recorded in the Book of Revelation.

Why do so many people ignore the time of the judgment of the dead, with reward for some, and destruction for others, in Revelation 11:18?

Why do they ignore Christ coming as a thief at Armageddon in Revelation 16:15-16, and also in chapter 19?


.

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Well you , your pastor and John Hawkins all have the same problem. YOu reinterrpet what god says too much to make it say something different than what is written.

I do not ignore the judgment of the dead in REv. 11:8 nor Jesus comning like a thief in REv. 16.

But I look at the construct in the original and the particular words used and the cases and moods and voices etc. used. That all tells me the timing is indefinite and will arrive soon, and it is not an immediate thing like you demand.

BABerean2 said:

Then how do you explain the time period when the Gospel was taken "first" to the Jews as described below by Paul? How long was this period of time, and when did it occur?
(See also Matthew 10:5-7, and Acts of the Apostles 10:36-38, and Galatians 1:14-18.)

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

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wow that is a toughie but let me take a crack at it.

8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Noe getting a little sarcastic---el-Al didn"t have many flights outside of Israel those days so they had to start in Israel!

Peter was given the keys to the kingdom and so the gospel going to the Samaritans and Gentiles had to wait until Peter first preached the gospel to them as is shown and demonstrated in the book of Acts.

there is nothing in the 70th week of Daniel ,

"27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

that says Israel only had a 7 year exclusivity contract for the gospel. that is a total reinterpretation of what is written to fit some agenda.

The gospel is always to the Jew first! If we gentile believers were smart, we would learn Jesus in the OT and go to the synagogues and witness to the rabbis!

nolidad said:

there is nothing in the 70th week of Daniel ,

"27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

that says Israel only had a 7 year exclusivity contract for the gospel. that is a total reinterpretation of what is written to fit some agenda.

The gospel is always to the Jew first! If we gentile believers were smart, we would learn Jesus in the OT and go to the synagogues and witness to the rabbis!

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Why did you leave out the verse before Daniel 9:27, which reveals it is "after" the 69 weeks?
What number comes "after" 69?

Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

You may consider yourself a "Gentile", but the Church began on the Day of Pentecost when about 3,000 Israelites accepted Christ?
The Church is now made up of all races of people.

That 7 year "contract" when the Gospel was taken "first" to the Jews is found in Matthew 10:5-7, and Acts 10:36-38, and Romans 1:16, and Galatians 1:14-18.

However, your normal mode of operations is to ignore or deny the scriptures which kill your man-made doctrine.

.

Spiritual Jew said:

Where do you see any indication within Revelation 11 and 13 that it's only talking about the past before Christ died on the cross?

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I’m only going to respond to this question, you can give me your rebuttal, which I will read but I’m not likely going to respond to it because of our theological differences.

I see John the Baptist as having multiple similarity’s to the 2 witness which leads me to believe that JtB is a type of the Old Testament saints or perhaps a type symbolizing the law and the prophets. When JtB is beheaded it appears to be a foreshadow of what Daniel 9:26 describes as Messiah being cut off.

Similarities between JtB and the 2 witnesses

Matthew 11:14 JtB is called Elias (he represents 2 people, himself and Elijah)

Revelation 11:3 they are clothed in sackcloth. Mark 1:6 JtB was clothed with camel’s hair.

Revelation 11:7 when their testimony is finished the beast makes war, overcomes them, and kills them. Matthew 14:3 Herod puts JtB in prison, Matthew 11:2-3 JtB questions if Jesus is the Christ, and Matthew 14:10 JtB is beheaded.

Revelation 11:9 -10 their dead bodies are in the street for 3 ½ days and they that dwell on the earth rejoice, make merry, and send gifts. From Mark 6:29 it is possible that JtB’s body was in the street for 3 ½ days because it was only after JtB’s disciples heard of his beheading that they came and got his body; also JtB was beheaded at Herod’s birthday party.

Revelation 11:11 after 3 ½ days the spirit of life from God enters into them and they stood on their feet. Matthew 27:52-53 after His resurrection the graves were opened and many bodies of the saints arose. Since Jesus was in the grave for 3 days, perhaps it is the extra ½ day till the graves of the saints are opened.

I’m not going to go into detail on this point but I understand the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit by using the parable in Matthew 12:43-45.


As for Revelation 13 what I see is the first beast overcomes national Israel, which were some of the events I already posted about. The second beast is Satan transformed into an angel of light which I believe happened after the cross. The people that continued to worship in the temple are not allowed to buy or sell unless they have the mark of the beast (Matthew 21:12-13 describes Jesus cleansing the temple of those who bought and sold).

BABerean2 said:

Why did you leave out the verse before Daniel 9:27, which reveals it is "after" the 69 weeks?
What number comes "after" 69?

Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

You may consider yourself a "Gentile", but the Church began on the Day of Pentecost when about 3,000 Israelites accepted Christ?

That 7 year "contract" when the Gospel was taken "first" to the Jews is found in Matthew 10:5-7, and Acts 10:36-38, and Romans 1:16, and Galatians 1:14-18.

However, your normal mode of operations is to ignore or deny the scriptures which kill your man-made doctrine.

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I notice that a lot of dispensationalists miss the obvious that it says the Messiah would be cut off AFTER the first 69 weeks are completed. That obviously places His death within the 70th week. Yet, some people foolishly deny what scripture clearly says. Some people are so desperate to cling to their false doctrine that they will act as if the word "after" is not in Daniel 9:26 in their Bibles even though every English translation I know of has the word "after" there.

grafted branch said:

I’m only going to respond to this question, you can give me your rebuttal, which I will read but I’m not likely going to respond to it because of our theological differences.

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Why won't you tell me if you are a full preterist or not? Is that because you know full preterism is not allowed to be promoted on this forum?

I read the rest of your post and my rebuttal is that none of it makes any sense to me and I disagree with everything you said and I don't even know where to begin to address your points, so I won't bother. So, we'll have to just agree to disagree.

Douggg said:

I created this thread for anyone who wants to disagree with Endtimes Eventism, and its 9 principles.

1. the 7 year 70th week of Daniel 9 is still unfulfilled.

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That is one of the interpretations though it is unlikely. Simply because the 70th week would not be a seven year week, but an indeterminate number of years in that 70th week.

2. there is only one way to be saved, and that is by believing on the Lord Jesus Christ, his death on the cross, and rising from the dead on the third day.

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I would strongly advise you to include the following.

Romans 10:10
For with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

The belief in the death and resurrection and the confession of the name of Jesus.

3. that Ezekiel 39 establishes the infallible timeline framework for the end times, the beginning and ending of the 70th week. Jesus Himself speaking in the text of v21-29, having returned to this earth.

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I would understand that Ezekiel is discussing the return of Israel from Babylon. Not so much an end time prophecy.

4. that end times events in the bible have to fit within, just prior to, and after, and comply with that framework.

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Not sure where you got that idea from?

5. that Christians escape the beginning of the Day of the Lord when the wrath associated with it takes place, by the rapture/resurrection of 1Thessalonians4:15-18.

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The Lord returns and we are raptured on that final day, then the wrath takes place.

6. that the person commonly called the Antichrist is only the Antichrist during his time as the King of Israel/messiah coming in his own name. And not as a blanket term for the person.

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Israel is a democratic country and not a monarchy. The antichrist cannot be a king of Israel.
There is not a temple in Israel and probably never will be. So the temple mentioned in Thessalonians, would likely be, some other kind of temple.

7. that Satan and his third of the angels will be cast down, restricted to earth in middle part of the seven years. Until Jesus returns, and Satan is cast into the bottomless pit.

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I have always assumed that Satan and the angels were cast down a long time ago.

8. that the Jews, Israel, becomes believers in Jesus en-masse in the middle part of the seven years.

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Impossible.

9. that there is a 1000 year millennium following Jesus's return to this earth.

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Too little information available to form a strong opinion on this point.

Spiritual Jew said:

I notice that a lot of dispensationalists miss the obvious that it says the Messiah would be cut off AFTER the first 69 weeks are completed. That obviously places His death within the 70th week. Yet, some people foolishly deny what scripture clearly says. Some people are so desperate to cling to their false doctrine that they will act as if the word "after" is not in Daniel 9:26 in their Bibles even though every English translation I know of has the word "after" there.

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That is correct and that 70th week has obviously been fulfilled.

BABerean2 said:

Why did you leave out the verse before Daniel 9:27, which reveals it is "after" the 69 weeks?
What number comes "after" 69?

Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

You may consider yourself a "Gentile", but the Church began on the Day of Pentecost when about 3,000 Israelites accepted Christ?
The Church is now made up of all races of people.

That 7 year "contract" when the Gospel was taken "first" to the Jews is found in Matthew 10:5-7, and Acts 10:36-38, and Romans 1:16, and Galatians 1:14-18.

However, your normal mode of operations is to ignore or deny the scriptures which kill your man-made doctrine.

.

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I know that 70 follows 69! and normally I would not bat an eye in believing that the 70th week immediately followed the 69th! that is the normal usual way of thinking.

BUT BUT BUT all your "explanations" are so far fetched as to strain credulity way past its breaking point!

1. You intentionally violate every known rule and convention of grammar (which God is not likely to do) to try to make Jesus the one who confirms the covenant with may for one 7. Why do you follow rules of Grammar elsewhere but violate them in this passage? The he has to refer back to its nearest antecedent that matches in gender and number- and that is the prince of the people who will come to destroy the sanctuary.

2. You allow for a violation of the immediate 70 following 60 by accepting 70 AD date for the destruction of the temple.

3. You forget the term "the end" in 26? what is the end? given its context--it would be the 70 weeks!

4. So now the "covenant" is not the new covenant as found in Jer. 31 but a different contract Jesus made. show me where and when he made that 7 year contract.

5. Paul did not start his apostleship to the gentiles until 36 AD that is 9 years and not 7.

6. YOu believe Jesus would do something for the purpose of "overspreading abominations"? WOW!

No, I fully accept the Scriptures as they are written and understood by normal rules of grammar and translation. I do not have to go into "mystical" interpretations as you have done on so many occasions. But especially in this passage.

1. Yo have mysticized " midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease" to mean that after 69 1/2 weeks Jesus caused the efficacy to cease . But that is not what is written and God had perfectly good words to use to mean that and does not need our "editorial help".

1A) YOu show you are a terrible mathematician. "6 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself:" YOu have retranslated that loosely by declaring that well 3 1/2 years is after 69 weeks isn't it? but yet demand specific order in 70 following 69 without a break! Why would god be so specific in the rest of the passage and loosey -goosey here?

2. You have mysticized "27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week" to mean that the gospel went to just Jews first for 7 years only. ( which it didn't).

Can I reinterpret your words you write the way you have reinterpreted the Scriptures to justify yours and your pastors and that guy Hawkins agenda?

grafted branch said:

Whichever Israel you think this verse is referring to, that has not been able to obtain that which it seeked for, is the Israel that I’m referring to as national Israel. I hope this is clear. I see this Israel as the saints being referred to in Revelation 11 and 13, I think these events happened prior to the cross.

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OK now what you said makes sense in light of what you believe regarding when the events of Revelation 11 and 13 occur/ed.

grafted branch said:

So I’m simply going to disagree with your interpretations on who the saints are and how they are overcome. I think we have too many basic theological differences to make any headway here.

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Yes, I see now that we disagree on whether or not Revelation 11 and 13's events are still future. No problem to me, Christian brother.

For the record, (just so you understand my thinking on this) Paul used the the words "Israel" and "Jews" interchangeably, and also we read in the gospels that when the chief priests and pharisees heard Jesus' parable (at the time the Lord told them that the kingdom would be taken from them), They understood that Jesus spoke of them (Matthew 21:45).

We must remember that the chief priests and pharisees were the vinedressers in the parable (Matthew 21:33-45). The Lord could not have been speaking of all the Jews - because not only were the apostles all Jews, but the apostle who was given the keys to the kingdom of heaven, was a Jew (Peter).

Sometimes I wish that every Christian would repeat to himself (or herself) over and over, "The kingdom was taken from the chief priests and pharisees, who were the vinedressers, the keepers of the flock, who were Jews, and the keys of the kingdom of heaven were given to Peter, who was a Jew. Indeed, all the apostles were Jews", and are the foundation of the New Testament Temple, a.k.a the Church.

Jesus was addressing the chief priests and pharisees when he said the kingdom would be taken from them, and the chief priests and pharisees understood by the parable of the wicked vinedressers that Jesus spoke of them.

All the Jews who rejected Christ, and all who continue to reject Him, are broken off from Israel (the olive tree). So Paul says in Romans 9:6-7, "For not all those (who are born of) Israel are Israel; nor because they are the (genetic) seed of Abraham are they all children.", but there is a distinction between the people who are the nation called Israel, and their leaders: Today we only have one King, and one High Priest, and we are all priests of God.

So there has always been only one nation called Israel, the Gentiles who beieve in Jesus are part of it, and God considers them "the house of Israel", whereas the Jews who believe in Jesus are "the house of Judah".

Paul is using the words "Israel" and "Jew" interchangeably, because later in Romans 9 he also says,

"What if God, willing to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much long-suffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction; and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy which He had before prepared to glory; whom He also called, not only us, of Jews, but also of the Gentiles? As He also says in Hosea, "I will call those not My people, My people; and those not beloved, Beloved." And it shall be, in the place where it was said to them. "You are not My people"; there they shall be called sons of the living God." (Romans 9:22-26).

So as I said in my other post, the above prophecy in Hosea refers to the house of Israel.

There is therefore no new nation, it's the same nation that's always existed - but there is a new temple, and the individual members of the nation are the living stones that it is comprised of, therefore there is no distinction between the members of the nation and the temple anymore, and since the New Testament Temple = The Church, The Church therefore = Israel, and there is no such thing as "Replacement Theology" - but this does not mean the kingdom was taken from "the Jews" and given to "the Gentiles", because Peter received the keys to the kingdom of heaven, and he was a Jew, and he was also an apostle, and he is part of the foundation of the New Testament Temple. So "the kingdom was taken only from the chief priests and pharisees, who were the vinedressers, and from any Jew who rejected Christ or continues to reject Christ, and the keys to the kingdom of heaven was handed to Peter, and to any Jew or Gentile who believes in Christ and are part of His flock, His people, Israel, which is still comprised of "the house of Israel" and "the house of Judah" but are one nation in Christ. These are the saints.

Deuteronomy 14:2 is speaking to all 12 tribes of Israel long before the 10 Northern tribes were scattered among the nations, long before the descendants of the 10 Northern tribes intermarried with Gentiles to the point where the original 10 tribes are untraceable today. Of course Deuteronomy 14:2 is speaking to "National Israel" - but you're excluding the entire house of Israel/Ephraim - the 10 tribes that are part of the saints when you say Revelation 11 and 13 are only referring to genetic descendants of Israel.