Who is THE RESTRAINER

Douggg

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I really don't mind if you're a Pre or Post Tribber. But the Apostasy = rapture will lead people straight to the AC. I'm compelled to warn.
The falling away will be because of the Antichrist (to be thought by the world as being the messiah), and then the Antichrist being revealed as the man of sin (and not the messiah after all) will be by his going into the temple, sitting, claiming to have achieved God-hood.

The revealing of the Antichrist as the man of sin is not going to happen until after the rapture takes place.

However, the apostasy falling away is not a term for the taking away of believers in the rapture.
 
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Douggg

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Hi Tim. Check out Revelation 12:7 and beyond and it is obvious who is restraining Satan, at our Lord's command, of course.
So Jesus is the restrainer, right?
 
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Douggg

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jgr

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Probably because the word "restrainer" is not in 2Thesslaonians2.

RESTRAINER IN THE BIBLE

You could also go back to post 2 and 19 in this thread though.

2 Thessalonians 2:7 DARBY
For the mystery of lawlessness already works; only [there is] he who restrains now until he be gone,
 
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Berean Tim

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The falling away will be because of the Antichrist (to be thought by the world as being the messiah), and then the Antichrist being revealed as the man of sin (and not the messiah after all) will be by his going into the temple, sitting, claiming to have achieved God-hood.

The revealing of the Antichrist as the man of sin is not going to happen until after the rapture takes place.

However, the apostasy falling away is not a term for the taking away of believers in the rapture.
It clearly states the Rebellion/Apostasy happens (first). 2nd Thessalonians 2:3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

I don't see a split in scripture dividing the AC's name at different times. 2nd Thessalonians 2:1-3 should end the Pre-Trib position. Different theories trying to explain away this very plain scripture is troubling to me.
 
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Douggg

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It clearly states the Rebellion/Apostasy happens (first). 2nd Thessalonians 2:3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

I don't see a split in scripture dividing the AC's name at different times. 2nd Thessalonians 2:1-3 should end the Pre-Trib position. Different theories trying to explain away this very plain scripture is troubling to me.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

You need to go back to 1Thessalonians 4:15- 5:11 to get into why the Thessalonians were concerned.

Paul had told them that believers don't have to experience the wrath to take place when the Day of the Lord begins, by being raptured out of the world, in 1Thessalonias 5:9-11. That's the starting place before interpreting 2Thesslaonians2.

_____________________________________________________________________________
Readingwise, of 2Thessalonians2, this is where you are going wrong....

In 2Thesssalonians2:3, a "then" is implied in the text, because of the "then" in v8.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and (then) that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;



7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

So when it says first in verse 3, it is not talking about the apostasy and the man of sin revealed - as happening first, i.e. before the rapture. It is talking about the Day of the Lord not taking place before there being a falling away happening first - and then (followed by) the man of sin revealed, as the two critical elements.

except there come a falling away first - in Christianity. Once that takes place, then the man of sin will be revealed. Once those two things take place, then the Day of the Lord takes place - and believers are supposed to be out of here before the Day of the Lord begins.

The question really is what causes the falling away in Christianity (from believing in Jesus) at that time? What is your answer?
 
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Berean Tim

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5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

You need to go back to 1Thessalonians 4:15- 5:11 to get into why the Thessalonians were concerned.

Paul had told them that believers don't have to experience the wrath to take place when the Day of the Lord begins, by being raptured out of the world, in 1Thessalonias 5:9-11. That's the starting place before interpreting 2Thesslaonians2.

_____________________________________________________________________________
Readingwise, of 2Thessalonians2, this is where you are going wrong....

In 2Thesssalonians2:3, a "then" is implied in the text, because of the "then" in v8.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and (then) that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;



7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

So when it says first in verse 3, it is not talking about the apostasy and the man of sin revealed - as happening first, i.e. before the rapture. It is talking about the Day of the Lord not taking place before there being a falling away happening first - and then (followed by) the man of sin revealed, as the two critical elements.

except there come a falling away first - in Christianity. Once that takes place, then the man of sin will be revealed. Once those two things take place, then the Day of the Lord takes place - and believers are supposed to be out of here before the Day of the Lord begins.

The question really is what causes the falling away in Christianity (from believing in Jesus) at that time? What is your answer?
No, Vs 3 is talking about that day. What day ?1Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers,

VS:3Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
That's exactly what he's talking about !

The Wrath of God starts after the 6th Seal, as clearly stated in Revelation 6:16 &17
16calling to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb, 17for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?

The answer to the last question "what causes the falling away" It could be the fact there was no Pre-Trib rapture and the man of sin has a "fatal head wound healed" They believe him to be the christ.
 
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jgr

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5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

You need to go back to 1Thessalonians 4:15- 5:11 to get into why the Thessalonians were concerned.

Paul had told them that believers don't have to experience the wrath to take place when the Day of the Lord begins, by being raptured out of the world, in 1Thessalonias 5:9-11. That's the starting place before interpreting 2Thesslaonians2.

_____________________________________________________________________________
Readingwise, of 2Thessalonians2, this is where you are going wrong....

In 2Thesssalonians2:3, a "then" is implied in the text, because of the "then" in v8.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and (then) that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;



7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

So when it says first in verse 3, it is not talking about the apostasy and the man of sin revealed - as happening first, i.e. before the rapture. It is talking about the Day of the Lord not taking place before there being a falling away happening first - and then (followed by) the man of sin revealed, as the two critical elements.

except there come a falling away first - in Christianity. Once that takes place, then the man of sin will be revealed. Once those two things take place, then the Day of the Lord takes place - and believers are supposed to be out of here before the Day of the Lord begins.

The question really is what causes the falling away in Christianity (from believing in Jesus) at that time? What is your answer?

The ECFs reveal the identity of the withholder.

John Chrysostom explains why Paul declined to do so.

Tertullian (2nd-3rd Century)
ON THE RESURRECTION, CHAP. XXIV
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work; only he who now hinders must hinder, until he be taken out of the way." What obstacle is there but the Roman state, the falling away of which, by being scattered into ten kingdoms, shall introduce Antichrist upon (its own ruins)?
APOLOGY, CHAP. XXXII.
There is also another and a greater necessity for our offering prayer in behalf of the emperors, nay, for the complete stability of the empire, and for Roman interests in general. For we know that a mighty shock im (43) pending over the whole earth--in fact, the very end of all things threatening dreadful woes---is only retarded by the continued existence of the Roman empire.

John Chrysostom (c. 347-407)
Homilies on Second Thessalonians
HOMILY IV. 2 THESSALONIANS ii. 6--9.
"Only there is one that restraineth now, until he be taken out of the way," that is, when the Roman empire is taken out of the way...

Augustine of Hippo (345 - 430)
City of God, Book XX, Chapter 19
For what does he [Paul] mean by "For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now holdeth, let him hold until he be taken out of the way: and then shall the wicked be revealed?" [2 Thess 2] I frankly confess I do not know what he means. ... However, it is not absurd to believe that these words of the apostle, "Only he who now holdeth, let him hold until he be taken out of the way," refer to the Roman empire, as if it were said, "Only he who now reigneth, let him reign until he be taken out of the way." "And then shall the wicked be revealed:" no one doubts that this means Antichrist.

While not commenting directly upon the 2 Thessalonians 2 passage, Cyril of Jerusalem affirmed the historical consensus that antichrist would not appear until the Roman empire had disappeared:

Cyril of Jerusalem (c. 315-386)
Catechetical Lectures
LECTURE XV.
ON THE CLAUSE, AND SHALL COME IN GLORY TO JUDGE THE QUICK AND THE DEAD; OF WHOSE KINGDOM THERE SHALL BE NO END, DANIEL vii. 9--14.
12. But this aforesaid Antichrist is to come when the times of the Roman empire shall have been fulfilled...

The early church believed that the imperial Roman empire, under which the church was then living, was the restrainer which would eventually be "taken out of the way", and which was forestalling the emergence of the papal Roman empire, which Paul describes as the lawless one; and its eventual apostasy. Notice in the related verses in 2 Thess. 2 that Paul does not reveal the identity of the restrainer. If Paul had believed that the Holy Spirit or the Church was the restrainer, there would have been no reason for him not to explicitly name either one. But Paul did have a reason. John Chrysostom reveals it:

"Because if he meant to say the Spirit, he would not have spoken obscurely, but plainly, that even now the grace of the Spirit, that is the gifts, withhold him...But because he said this of the Roman empire, he naturally glanced at it, and speaks covertly and darkly. For he did not wish to bring upon himself superfluous enmities, and useless dangers. For if he had said that after a little while the Roman empire would be dissolved, they would immediately have even overwhelmed him, as a pestilent person, and all the faithful, as living and warring to this end."

Paul did not wish to jeopardize the Church by attracting the attention of the Roman authorities.

History subsequently confirmed the validity of Paul's inspired prescience.
 
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Douggg

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No, Vs 3 is talking about that day. What day ?1Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers,
No, you have to go to verse 2 to know what day will not come until after the falling away and the man of sin revealed.

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Again, a person has to read what Paul told the Thessalonians earlier, in 1Thesslaonians5 about not having to experience the wrath to come during when the Day of the Lord begins.

The rapture in 1Thessalonians5 takes place BEFORE the Day of the Lord begins. In 2Thesslaonians2, Paul is just verifying and reiterating to comfort the Thessalonians concerns.

The answer to the last question "what causes the falling away" It could be the fact there was no Pre-Trib rapture and the man of sin has a "fatal head wound healed" They believe him to be the christ.
I think the part in blue is the reason.

The Wrath of God starts after the 6th Seal, as clearly stated in Revelation 6:16 &17
16calling to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb, 17for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?
No, the wrath of God begins when the vials of God's wrath begin. And Satan's wrath upon the inhabiters of the earth, begins with a time/times/half times left in the 7 years.
 
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Douggg

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The ECFs reveal the identity of the withholder.

John Chrysostom explains why Paul declined to do so.
Neither the rapture, nor the act by the Antichrist have happen yet.

Chrysostom connected those events to the Roman Empire - but it was not the Roman Empire of his day. The EU is the version of the Roman Empire when the rapture and the act by the Antichrist will take place.

Chrysostom was wrong about the restrainer (which is not a word found in the KJV) being the Roman Empire. In fact he has it just backwards, the Antichrist will come out of the Roman Empire of the end times.
 
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jgr

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Neither the rapture, nor the act by the Antichrist have happen yet.

Chrysostom connected those events to the Roman Empire - but it was not the Roman Empire of his day. The EU is the version of the Roman Empire when the rapture and the act by the Antichrist will take place.

Chrysostom was wrong about the restrainer (which is not a word found in the KJV) being the Roman Empire. In fact he has it just backwards, the Antichrist will come out of the Roman Empire of the end times.

The choice:

1. The historically verified wisdom and insight of the early defenders of the true faith.
2. Douggg's imagination.

Another easy one.
 
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Douggg

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The choice:

1. The historically verified wisdom and insight of the early defenders of the true faith.
2. Douggg's imagination.

Another easy one.
You cannot even acknowledge that the rapture and the act by Antichrist has not taken place yet?
 
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Berean Tim

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No, you have to go to verse 2 to know what day will not come until after the falling away and the man of sin revealed.

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Again, a person has to read what Paul told the Thessalonians earlier, in 1Thesslaonians5 about not having to experience the wrath to come during when the Day of the Lord begins.

The rapture in 1Thessalonians5 takes place BEFORE the Day of the Lord begins. In 2Thesslaonians2, Paul is just verifying and reiterating to comfort the Thessalonians concerns.

I think the part in blue is the reason.

No, the wrath of God begins when the vials of God's wrath begin. And Satan's wrath upon the inhabiters of the earth, begins with a time/times/half times left in the 7 years.
The rapture in 1Thessalonians5 takes place BEFORE the Day of the Lord begins. In 2Thesslaonians2, Paul is just verifying and reiterating to comfort the Thessalonians concerns.

1st Thessalonians says the"Lord will come as a thief" to those not looking for him. It doesn't say it's before the 70th Week

Both letters to the Thessalonians are Pauls teaching on the Olivet Discourse. 1 Thess 4 is Matthew 24:29-31. 2nd Thess 2:1-3 is Matthew 24:15-28. The 1st letter Paul is clearing up about those who have died "the dead in Christ". The 2nd letter Paul is saying what must occur first, the falling away and the AoD

I agree the vials are Wrath, but so are the Trumpets. You disregard the clear teaching in Revelation 6:16 & 17, this is before the 7th Seal reveals the Trumpets
 
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jgr

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You cannot even acknowledge that the rapture and the act by Antichrist has not taken place yet?

I acknowledge historical fulfillments.

I do not acknowledge futurized delusions.

Do you acknowledge that the papal Roman empire did not emerge until the imperial Roman empire had disintegrated, i.e. was "taken out of the way" (2 Thessalonians 2:7)?
 
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Douggg

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1st Thessalonians says the"Lord will come as a thief" to those not looking for him. It doesn't say it's before the 70th Week
I agree that the Day of the Lord begins unexpectedly a thief. So the Day of the Lord is not the beginning of the 70week.

Both letters to the Thessalonians are Pauls teaching on the Olivet Discourse. 1 Thess 4 is Matthew 24:29-31. 2nd Thess 2:1-3 is Matthew 24:15-28. The 1st letter Paul is clearing up about those who have died "the dead in Christ". The 2nd letter Paul is saying what must occur first, the falling away and the AoD
You are wrong about those things.

Paul was addressing those who had died in Christ, the resurrection of their bodies - and at the same time the translation of the living in the rapture.

In 1Thessalonians 5, Paul was obviously talking about the living in Christ not having to exprerience the wrath when the Day of the Lord begins.

The rapture will take place before the Day of the Lord begins.

The Day of the Lord begins when the Antichrist commits the transgresssion of desolation act.
 
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Berean Tim

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I agree that the Day of the Lord begins unexpectedly a thief. So the Day of the Lord is not the beginning of the 70week.


You are wrong about those things.

Paul was addressing those who had died in Christ, the resurrection of their bodies - and at the same time the translation of the living in the rapture.

In 1Thessalonians 5, Paul was obviously talking about the living in Christ not having to exprerience the wrath when the Day of the Lord begins.

The rapture will take place before the Day of the Lord begins.

The Day of the Lord begins when the Antichrist commits the transgresssion of desolation act.
Matthew 25:15“So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),
2 Thessalonians 2-4who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.

There're the same event. It's clear until one tries to squeeze their own ideas into it. The reason you say it's different is because Matthew 24:29 starts "after the tribulation of those days" the days of the AoD. You start with a Pre-Trib rapture then try to fit things in. Just take it as written.
 
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Douggg

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Matthew 25:15“So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),
2 Thessalonians 2-4who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.

There're the same event. It's clear until one tries to squeeze their own ideas into it. The reason you say it's different is because Matthew 24:29 starts "after the tribulation of those days" the days of the AoD. You start with a Pre-Trib rapture then try to fit things in. Just take it as written.

No, that is not the reason. There are two different events.

event 1. 2Thessalonians2:4 - sitting - an act. A transgression, that makes the temple desolate.

event 2. Daniel 12:11 - AoD - set up - a thing. An idol placed on the temple mount grounds.

They are not the same event - although closely related. The sitting event triggers the beginning of the Day of Lord. And God has the person killed for the act.

And in disdain for the person, kicks his soul out of hell, and brings the person back to life. Now the person is the beast. And then the event of the statue image is made of the beast and set up on the temple mount, where everyone in Judea can see it. The signal for the Jews to flee into the mountains. As the great tribulation will begin at that point.
 
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Timtofly

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It clearly states the Rebellion/Apostasy happens (first). 2nd Thessalonians 2:3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

I don't see a split in scripture dividing the AC's name at different times. 2nd Thessalonians 2:1-3 should end the Pre-Trib position. Different theories trying to explain away this very plain scripture is troubling to me.
There is no human AC. 2 Thessalonians 2 is about Satan and the FP. The AC is just some made up accusation first used by the Reformers who claimed the popes were AC. That is not what Paul, John, nor Jesus claim. John says there are many antichrist, but not a single AC. John mentions an Artificial Christ in Revelation 13. It was an image in human form because the FP, first beast is human. If the first beast is just a system, then the AC would be a monetary system in the image of the government/religious system. Why would Satan breath life into a monetary system?
 
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The ECFs reveal the identity of the withholder.

John Chrysostom explains why Paul declined to do so.

Tertullian (2nd-3rd Century)
ON THE RESURRECTION, CHAP. XXIV
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work; only he who now hinders must hinder, until he be taken out of the way." What obstacle is there but the Roman state, the falling away of which, by being scattered into ten kingdoms, shall introduce Antichrist upon (its own ruins)?
APOLOGY, CHAP. XXXII.
There is also another and a greater necessity for our offering prayer in behalf of the emperors, nay, for the complete stability of the empire, and for Roman interests in general. For we know that a mighty shock im (43) pending over the whole earth--in fact, the very end of all things threatening dreadful woes---is only retarded by the continued existence of the Roman empire.

John Chrysostom (c. 347-407)
Homilies on Second Thessalonians
HOMILY IV. 2 THESSALONIANS ii. 6--9.
"Only there is one that restraineth now, until he be taken out of the way," that is, when the Roman empire is taken out of the way...

Augustine of Hippo (345 - 430)
City of God, Book XX, Chapter 19
For what does he [Paul] mean by "For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now holdeth, let him hold until he be taken out of the way: and then shall the wicked be revealed?" [2 Thess 2] I frankly confess I do not know what he means. ... However, it is not absurd to believe that these words of the apostle, "Only he who now holdeth, let him hold until he be taken out of the way," refer to the Roman empire, as if it were said, "Only he who now reigneth, let him reign until he be taken out of the way." "And then shall the wicked be revealed:" no one doubts that this means Antichrist.

While not commenting directly upon the 2 Thessalonians 2 passage, Cyril of Jerusalem affirmed the historical consensus that antichrist would not appear until the Roman empire had disappeared:

Cyril of Jerusalem (c. 315-386)
Catechetical Lectures
LECTURE XV.
ON THE CLAUSE, AND SHALL COME IN GLORY TO JUDGE THE QUICK AND THE DEAD; OF WHOSE KINGDOM THERE SHALL BE NO END, DANIEL vii. 9--14.
12. But this aforesaid Antichrist is to come when the times of the Roman empire shall have been fulfilled...

The early church believed that the imperial Roman empire, under which the church was then living, was the restrainer which would eventually be "taken out of the way", and which was forestalling the emergence of the papal Roman empire, which Paul describes as the lawless one; and its eventual apostasy. Notice in the related verses in 2 Thess. 2 that Paul does not reveal the identity of the restrainer. If Paul had believed that the Holy Spirit or the Church was the restrainer, there would have been no reason for him not to explicitly name either one. But Paul did have a reason. John Chrysostom reveals it:

"Because if he meant to say the Spirit, he would not have spoken obscurely, but plainly, that even now the grace of the Spirit, that is the gifts, withhold him...But because he said this of the Roman empire, he naturally glanced at it, and speaks covertly and darkly. For he did not wish to bring upon himself superfluous enmities, and useless dangers. For if he had said that after a little while the Roman empire would be dissolved, they would immediately have even overwhelmed him, as a pestilent person, and all the faithful, as living and warring to this end."

Paul did not wish to jeopardize the Church by attracting the attention of the Roman authorities.

History subsequently confirmed the validity of Paul's inspired prescience.
You do realize these humans were guessing, just like all posters here are just guessing? Obviously they were wrong, no?
 
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