The 2 Beasts with The harlot

nolidad said:

Well then answer me one question. I agree that Israel has played the harlot and could very well be the greatest harlot!

But How Is Israel?jerusalem, the Mother of all false religious systems (harlots)???

Every time Israel played the harlot she adopted another religious system. She never birthed any new false system!

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Interesting premise, but you haven't proven it yet from scripture. It's Purely speculation and inference based on your bias. You have not one single solitary scripture referring to Ancient Babylon as a "Harlot", ever, not even one.

You appear to have made this up out of whole cloth.

Here is what Paul has to say about the two Jerusalem's being Mothers:

Galatians 4:21-
21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar— 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children— 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27 For it is written:

“Rejoice, O barren,
You who do not bear!
Break forth and shout,
You who are not in labor!
For the desolate has many more children
Than she who has a husband.”

28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. 29 But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now. 30 Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.” 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free.

Now, you can answer me this question:
How does any other entity BESIDES Jerusalem qualify for this:?

MYSTERY BABYLON
Rev. 18:24
And in her was found the blood of prophets...

JERUSALEM
Matthew 23:37
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee...

Luke 13:33
... for it cannot be that a prophet perish outside of Jerusalem.

Quite plainly, no other city qualifies.

nolidad said:

Well then answer me one question. I agree that Israel has played the harlot and could very well be the greatest harlot!

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Name one other City God calls a Harlot in scripture?

Show us where God calls ancient Babylon a Harlot ever. Even once.

--COMPARE THIS--

Revelation 18:20
Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.

--TO THIS--

Matt 23:33-38
Yeserpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee...Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

The blood of the apostles and prophets was avenged upon first-century Jerusalem, as we see from Jesus' prophecy. Jerusalem was "thou that killest the prophets and them that are sent to thee" [apostles]. St. John was the last apostle. There are no more apostles (the eyewitnesses of the Christ's resurrection chosen before His ascension).

Jerusalem is indeed the "Great City" that crucified Jesus (Rev 11:8/18:10). She was God's famous harlot (Isa 1:21; Jer 3:6-10; Ez 16:37-39). To her was sent the prophets and apostles that they would kill so that "upon Jerusalem would come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth" (Mt. 23:35-38). She was "Egypt/Sodom/Babylon" (Rev 11:8/18:10) where God's people were in bondage in the first century:

Galatians 4:25-26
For this Hagar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is [i.e., at that present time], and IS IN BONDAGE WITH HER CHILDREN. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Jerusalem had become Egypt/Sodom/Babylon to God's people in the first century, and God sent plagues and desolation upon the "great city" where our lord was crucified (Rev 11:8).

I have provided you with extensive cross references (which you have yet to offered any biblical refutation of) showing quite plainly Jerusalem is the Harlot of Revelation 18.

You have provide a grand total of ZERO scriptural cross references showing ancient Babylon is ever, even once, even ever, referred to By God or His prophets as a "harlot" at all...

Our readers now have a clear delineation on which of our views has the greater scriptural weight behind it.

Davy said:

Apparently, you don't understand what Christ is showing us in His Revelation about Jerusalem for the end.

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The book of Revelation shows us things that happen in Christ's church, not Jerusalem. That's why the book is addressed to churches.

Haven't you read the Rev.11 chapter?

Rev 11:3-8
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
KJV

Where was Lord Jesus crucified? That's easy, Jerusalem.

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Actually, that is not true. He was crucified outside of Jerusalem. Read the following passages carefully:

Hebrews 13:10 We have an altar from which those who minister at the tabernacle have no right to eat. 11 The high priest carries the blood of animals into the Most Holy Place as a sin offering, but the bodies are burned outside the camp. 12 And so Jesus also suffered outside the city gate to make the people holy through his own blood. 13 Let us, then, go to him outside the camp, bearing the disgrace he bore. 14 For here we do not have an enduring city, but we are looking for the city that is to come.

John 19:19 Pilate had a notice prepared and fastened to the cross. It read: jesus of nazareth, the king of the jews. 20 Many of the Jews read this sign, for the place where Jesus was crucified was near the city, and the sign was written in Aramaic, Latin and Greek.

Notice it says He was crucified in the great city. Using scripture to interpret scripture, we can see that the great city is not only spiritually called "Sodom and Egypt", but also Babylon. This shows the all encompassing, global nature of the great city.

Revelation 14:8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

Revelation 17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

Revelation 18:10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.

The great city Babylon is a global spiritual city which is "the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit" (Rev 18:2). That does not describe any earthly city. The great city clearly has a global reach. The great city "reigneth over the kings of the earth". That does not describe any earthly city. It is "the mother of all harlots" (Rev 17:5) as opposed to the heavenly Jerusalem which is "the mother of us all", as in all believers (Galatians 4:26). Spiritual Babylon represents all false religions and philosophies in the world that people spiritually fornicate with and which oppose Christ and His church.

So, what Revelation 11:8 is saying is that the place where Christ was crucified is the world, or the earth, that the great city Babylon rules over (Rev 17:18).

parousia70 said:

Jerusalem is indeed the "Great City" that crucified Jesus (Rev 11:8/18:10).

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Jesus was not crucified in Jerusalem, so you need to rethink this. Scripture teaches that He was crucified outside of Jerusalem in Hebrews 13:12 and John 19:20.

I understand and agree that the great city has a lot in common with ancient Jerusalem, but ancient Jerusalem is not the mother of all harlots. If you think it is, then give me clear evidence to show that.

Instead, I believe Jerusalem is just one of the harlots which has the great city, Babylon, as its mother. Other harlots which have the great city as its mother are ancient Sodom and Egypt and ancient Babylon itself. All false religions and philosophies have the great city, Babylon, as their mother. That is in contrast to the heavenly Jerusalem which is the mother of Christianity (Gal 4:26).

Spiritual Jew said:

Jesus was not crucified in Jerusalem, so you need to rethink this. Scripture teaches that He was crucified outside of Jerusalem in Hebrews 13:12 and John 19:20.

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Spiritual Jew:
He was crucified outside Jerusalem

Jesus Christ:
"Nevertheless I must journey on today and tomorrow and the next day; for it cannot be that a prophet would perish outside of Jerusalem. (Lk 13:33)

Spiritual Jew:
He was crucified outside Jerusalem

Luke the Inspired Gospel Writer:
"One of them, named Cleopas, answered and said to Him, 'Are You the only one visiting Jerusalem and unaware of the things which have happened here in these days?'" (Luke 24:18)

I understand and agree that the great city has a lot in common with ancient Jerusalem, but ancient Jerusalem is not the mother of all harlots. If you think it is, then give me clear evidence to show that.

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Is my Post #71 in this thread somehow unclear?

Instead, I believe Jerusalem is just one of the harlots which has the great city, Babylon, as its mother. Other harlots which have the great city as its mother are ancient Sodom and Egypt and ancient Babylon itself.

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Other Harlots?
If you think this is true, then give me, as you said, CLEAR EVIDENCE from scripture that Sodom, Egypt and Ancient Babylon itself are ever referred to, even one time, as a "Harlot" in the pages of scripture.

Davy said:

Until then, the beast system has a "deadly wound" that will only be healed when

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Or when the king maker lost it's power years ago but just last week teamed up with the WEF, it's old power was back.

parousia70 said:

AND, there are Plenty of churches in Jerusalem today.

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Mom and Pop ones like the original WAY or those big box churches?

timothyu said:

Mom and Pop ones like the original WAY or those big box churches?

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Matthew 18:20

Spiritual Jew said:

Revelation 17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

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What is the ONLY city with the scriptural authority to "reign over the Kings of the Earth?"

JERUSALEM

Earthly Jerusalem, by Divine right and calling, was the preeminent city among all nations. The Biblical understanding of Jerusalem is that she is the "Chief of the nations" (Jeremiah 31:7; Ez 5:5), the Queen city of the earth (Lam 1:1/Rev 18:7). She, by Divine right and covenant, was appointed as the head of all nations (Deut 26:19; Deut 15:6; Deut 28:1,10-13), and the gentile kings recognized God's dwelling was at Jerusalem with the Hebrews (1 Ki 10:24; Luke 11:31; Ezra 1:2; Dan 2:47, 3:28-29, 4:1-3, 4:17, 4:34-37; Ezra 1; Ezra 4-7; Ezra 7:15,23).

The Governor of all nations (Ps. 22:28) lived in Jerusalem in his House (Ez 7:15,23), and all the kingdom, power and might over earth was His (1 Chron 29:11-12). Indeed, all kings receive their power to rule from that Divine King (Rom 13:1-2,6; John 19:11; 1 Pet 2:13-14,17; Ez 1:2; Dan 1:1-2; Dan 2:20-21; Dan 2:37-38; Dan 2:47, Dan 3:28-29; Dan 4:1-3,17,34-37.).

Without question, Jerusalem is the ONLY City with the Divine Right to "Reign over the Kings of the Earth"

The "Woman" of Revelation, who is the "Great City" that "reigns over the Kings of the Earth" can only be Jerusalem.

parousia70 said:

Spiritual Jew:
He was crucified outside Jerusalem

Jesus Christ:
"Nevertheless I must journey on today and tomorrow and the next day; for it cannot be that a prophet would perish outside of Jerusalem. (Lk 13:33)

Spiritual Jew:
He was crucified outside Jerusalem

Luke the Inspired Gospel Writer:
"One of them, named Cleopas, answered and said to Him, 'Are You the only one visiting Jerusalem and unaware of the things which have happened here in these days?'" (Luke 24:18)

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So, your verses are true and the ones I quoted are not? Is that what you're trying to say? You don't accept what Hebrews 3:12 and John 19:20 say? Those verses are not in your Bible? Are we playing that game? Okay, let's play.

parousia70:
Jesus was crucified within Jerusalem.

The Inspired Author of Hebrews (Likely Paul):
"Jesus also suffered outside the city gate" (Hebrews 3:12).

parousia70:
Jesus was crucified within Jerusalem

John the Inspired Gospel Writer:
"the place where Jesus was crucified was near the city" (John 19:20).

So, is it a tie at two passages apiece then? Do we need a tiebreaker?

Here's the difference between the verses you quoted and the ones I quoted. The ones I quoted specifically tell us that Jesus was crucified outside of Jerusalem and the ones you quoted do not.

You are missing the context of Luke 13:33. Jesus was on His way to Jerusalem at the time, so He was outside of Jerusalem at that time and was going to reach Jerusalem in a few days from that time regardless of what Herod wanted to do to Him. So, He knew He couldn't be killed until reaching the city first and being brought before the Jewish Sanhedrin to be sentenced to death.

Luke 13:22 Then Jesus went through the towns and villages, teaching as he made his way to Jerusalem...31 At that time some Pharisees came to Jesus and said to him, “Leave this place and go somewhere else. Herod wants to kill you.” 32 He replied, “Go tell that fox, ‘I will keep on driving out demons and healing people today and tomorrow, and on the third day I will reach my goal.’ 33 In any case, I must press on today and tomorrow and the next day—for surely no prophet can die outside Jerusalem! 34 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.

Notice in verse 34 that Jesus refers to the religious leaders of Jerusalem as "Jerusalem, Jerusalem". So, this shows the context of verse 33. He was not referring to the city of Jerusalem itself there as if no prophet could die outside of the city of Jerusalem. No, He was saying that no prophet can die at the hands of anyone except for the religious Jewish leaders who were responsible for killing all of the prophets throughout the years up to that time (Matt 23:29-32).

Look at what Jesus said here to the unbelieving Pharisees:

Matthew 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? 34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: 35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

Why would Jesus have said that a prophet can't die outside of the city of Jerusalem when He said that He was going to send prophets to the Jews and they would persecute and kill them "from city to city" which means they would kill them in other cities besides just Jerusalem? That would be contradictory. So, this is more evidence to show that Jesus was not saying that a prophet could not die outside of the city of Jerusalem, but rather was saying that a prophet could not die at the hands of anyone but the religious leaders in Jerusalem because they were responsible for the death of all of the prophets.

This interpretation does not cause any contradictions with Hebrews 3:12 and John 19:20, but yours does. Why are you willing to interpret scripture in such a way that blatantly contradicts other scripture?

Again, Hebrews 13:12 and John 19:20 very specifically say that He was crucified outside of Jerusalem, so why do you not accept that? We cannot choose which verses we accept while discarding the rest. I see people doing that on here all the time and it makes me sick. There are no contradictions in scripture, so when two verses don't seem to agree with each other at first, we have to dig deeper to find the truth instead of just disregarding verses that we can't explain in favor of doctrinal bias.

As for Luke 24:18, Jesus was talking to Cleopas and his buddy and they must have assumed Jesus was crucified within the city without realizing that He was actually crucified just outside of the city. They were evidently not present when He died or they would have known He was actually crucified in Golgotha outside of Jerusalem.

Is my Post #71 in this thread somehow unclear?

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It's clear that ancient Jerusalem had similar qualities to spiritual Babylon, but Babylon is the mother of all harlots which has a wider reach than even Jerusalem had.

Other Harlots?
If you think this is true, then give me, as you said, CLEAR EVIDENCE from scripture that Sodom, Egypt and Ancient Babylon itself are ever referred to, even one time, as a "Harlot" in the pages of scripture.

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It says the great city is spiritually called Sodom and Egypt. Why do you think that is? And it's also called Babylon. It says the great city, Babylon, is the mother of all harlots. That's harlots plural. So, which harlots do you think have spiritual Babylon as their mother?

Wouldn't that include all false religions and philosophies from all-time including those practiced in ancient Sodom, Egypt, Babylon and, yes, Jerusalem also? Is earthly Jerusalem the mother of all harlots? I don't believe so. Explain how that can be the case. Is Jerusalem the mother of Islam, Hinduism and Buddhism?

friend of said:

Right, so then how can a system be cast into the lof?

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The FP is alluded to by the system John connected to Daniel. The FP, reincarnated, represents Daniel 11"s coalition that produces the king before Christ. This time around a totally different set of parameters. Same FP.

Douggg said:

The reason it is not Antiochus , is that the false prophet person imitates Elijah the prophet, a Jew.

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The soul is not genetic, the body is.

Timtofly said:

The FP is alluded to by the system John connected to Daniel. The FP, reincarnated, represents Daniel 11"s coalition that produces the king before Christ. This time around a totally different set of parameters. Same FP

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It says two specific entities will be thrown into the lof at Christs return. The beast and the false prophet. I can only be that the beast is a person. You cant throw government systems into a lof

parousia70 said:

What is the ONLY city with the scriptural authority to "reign over the Kings of the Earth?"

JERUSALEM

Earthly Jerusalem, by Divine right and calling, was the preeminent city among all nations. The Biblical understanding of Jerusalem is that she is the "Chief of the nations" (Jeremiah 31:7; Ez 5:5), the Queen city of the earth (Lam 1:1/Rev 18:7). She, by Divine right and covenant, was appointed as the head of all nations (Deut 26:19; Deut 15:6; Deut 28:1,10-13), and the gentile kings recognized God's dwelling was at Jerusalem with the Hebrews (1 Ki 10:24; Luke 11:31; Ezra 1:2; Dan 2:47, 3:28-29, 4:1-3, 4:17, 4:34-37; Ezra 1; Ezra 4-7; Ezra 7:15,23).

The Governor of all nations (Ps. 22:28) lived in Jerusalem in his House (Ez 7:15,23), and all the kingdom, power and might over earth was His (1 Chron 29:11-12). Indeed, all kings receive their power to rule from that Divine King (Rom 13:1-2,6; John 19:11; 1 Pet 2:13-14,17; Ez 1:2; Dan 1:1-2; Dan 2:20-21; Dan 2:37-38; Dan 2:47, Dan 3:28-29; Dan 4:1-3,17,34-37.).

Without question, Jerusalem is the ONLY City with the Divine Right to "Reign over the Kings of the Earth"

The "Woman" of Revelation, who is the "Great City" that "reigns over the Kings of the Earth" can only be Jerusalem.

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This is all based on your false preterist assumption that all of Revelation was fulfilled by 70 AD. Your entire doctrine depends on Revelation having been written before 70 AD, but it wasn't. That alone disproves your doctrine.

Mystery Babylon, the mother of ALL harlots, is the mother of ALL harlots throughout time up until today and up until the glorious future coming of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Earthly Jerusalem does not fit that description.

Your understanding is partly based on your false interpretation that the great city, where our Lord was crucified, was Jerusalem. I showed you where scripture clearly teaches that He was crucified outside of Jerusalem (Heb 3:12, John 19:20). So, you can't use Revelation 11:8 as evidence to back up your view anymore now that I have proven your interpretation of that verse to be false.

Babylon, the mother of all harlots, should be viewed as being the spiritual opposite of the heavenly Jerusalem which is "the mother of us all" (Gal 4:26). It is spiritually called "Sodom and Egypt" (Rev 11:8). Explain to me how and why earthly Jerusalem would spiritually be called "Sodom and Egypt".

friend of said:

It says two specific entities will be thrown into the lof at Christs return. The beast and the false prophet. I can only be that the beast is a person. You cant throw government systems into a lof

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It also says death and Hades will be thrown into the lake of fire (Rev 20:14), so you should be careful about making rules regarding what can or cannot be thrown in there.

Spiritual Jew said:

It also says death and Hades will be thrown into the lake of fire (Rev 20:14), so you should be careful about making rules regarding what can or cannot be thrown in there.

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You guys need to read Revelation 19:20

It specifically refers to the beast as a person.

parousia70 said:

What's your point exactly?
I've nowhere asserted the Church did not heed Christ's warning to flee and escape the wrath. It's plain they did.
AND, there are Plenty of churches in Jerusalem today.
Churches in Jerusalem Holy Land – Map Pictures and Tour | Jesus Christ Holyland

So again, what's your point?

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Jerusalem after Malchezedic, was left to Israel. After the Cross the church went to the world. It is no more a city, until the Lamb returns to Jerusalem in the 6th Seal.

friend of said:

You guys need to read Revelation 19:20

It specifically refers to the beast as a person.

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So, you have no comment on my having shown you that even death and Hades will be cast into the lake of fire (Rev 20:14), which shows that it isn't just humans and angels that are cast into the lake of fire?

How are you coming to the conclusion that Revelation 19:20 refers to the beast as a person? It certainly does not say that specifically.

Why don't you allow Daniel to define what prophetic beasts represent for you?

Daniel 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

Spiritual Jew said:

you have no comment on my having shown you that even death and Hades will be cast into the lake of fire (Rev 20:14), which shows that it isn't just humans and angels that are cast into the lake of fire?

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The old system of live and let die (cue the fireworks)

Kingdoms are intangible things. Death is apparently an entity. Is God going to capture the infrastructure of a government and cast it into the lof? That makes no sense. A government is not an entity with any life in and of itself. So it couldn't suffer in lof as punishment, making God's capture of it redundant.

Spiritual Jew said:

So, you have no comment on my having shown you that even death and Hades will be cast into the lake of fire (Rev 20:14), which shows that it isn't just humans and angels that are cast into the lake of fire?

How are you coming to the conclusion that Revelation 19:20 refers to the beast as a person? It certainly does not say that specifically.

Why don't you allow Daniel to define what prophetic beasts represent for you?

Daniel 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

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The beast in this passage represents a kingdom. The beast is the leader of the east kingdom.